[sachat3]

I think the thing is also, your H may have not lied when he said it was over with Ow. Maybe it was when he said that. And now it’s not. I know mine with the original Ow it was a constant on off on off. That was his circus.

My kids are 6,9&11 and I try and stay out of their relationship with him. So D9 in particular will want to come home a lot more when with him. I let her. Sometimes, especially when he lived with ow D11 didn’t want to go. I never forced her. I don’t force my kids anything with him. They get to make that choice. Sure I’m an ideal world I’d love a kid free weekend but that’s not my call. If they don’t want to go, I won’t force them. I also will never ever stop them. Like when clington got a new puppy they were always FaceTiming him (they have their own phones).

The best thing you can do is what’s right for you. You can’t pour from an empty cup. Nobody can tell you what to do, but the one thing that helped me was, if I didn’t know what to do regarding Clington I imagined the advice I’d give to my daughters. If I wouldn’t want them to accept it for them. I wouldn’t accept it for me.

[Onlythelonely]

Thank you all again for your responses.

Evermore-yes I know your H went public from the beginning with OW, and our timelines are very similar.  (After a little reflection this week I'm rethinking whether this constituted  H " going public " with OW. It was very late at night in a bar not in our hometown). Possibly just another bone headed, foggy decision. Yes it is very, very hard not to analyze each behavior and movement from H to look for which direction he might be headed. I'm a pretty analytical person by nature and this had been a difficult thing to grasp. As I get more and more detached I just see that collectively he makes zero sense and his decision making is illogical. The more evidence I add to that pile, the easier it gets to remember. I like your take of dealing with the "right now". It seems to take some of the pressure off from making permanent decisions. My counselor also uses the phrase "not yet". As in, I might some day soon be ready for D, but "not yet".

sachat3- I admire how you are handling things with your kids.  I have to stop and think about if I would handle things any differently if my kids were younger. I think there are definitely pluses and minuses to each age range. Mine are obviously out of the "co- parenting" age and making their own decisions regardless of if I tried to intervene or not. Yes you are observant that H is not in a healthy place all the way around, I keep reminding myself of that. He has not moved in with OW to play happy family, has not met her kids, and has a whole host of other unhealthy vices that all point toward general unhappiness and "escape and avoid".  I do know he was with OW when he lied to D21, but D21 does not know that.

One Day at a Time, Reinventing, Treasur - After having some time to think on this this past week, I think while I have decided to stand this entire time logically understanding that the outcome may not be what I desire, emotionally I am not to the point where I would be ok with an "ending" that does not involve reconciliation. ( though I do think I get closer as time goes on ). Therefore, I am very "on guard" for any event that might signal the absolute end. It seems like every time something happens that indicates it's over, AGAIN ( treasurs "mini-bombs"), I crumble, then regroup, then march on. So then I wonder if I am a fool for standing, as how many times am I willing to get "kicked in the teeth" and then go back for more?

Treasur you are so correct when you say that standing has to be for me, and I really do see now that detachment has to happen to be able to continue to do this and not continue to be pulled under with H.  I have seen a difference in myself the last few weeks ( at the diner, after D21 got the bar photos ) where I would have, in the past, been a blubbering mess, I can sort of shrug my shoulders incredulously and just add these behaviors to the pile.

KayDee- THANK YOU for summarizing his behavior so well, when someone repeats it back to me like you did, lightbulbs go off. He is absolutely acting like a toddler, and I can't seem to catch my breath. Not to rehash 5 years worth of behavior, but after I found out about OW ( the first time ) there was over 2 years of clinging boomerang behavior.  We went out to dinner 2/3 nights a week, and when he was not living at home, he was with the kids at home often. H and I actually still get along very well and enjoy each others company, as long as I didn't try and have R talks or pressure him ( Then I got major monster ). I think I said in my first post that had I not slowly gotten strong enough to put up taller and taller boundaries,  I think this behavior would have continued indefinitely.  What took me a long time to understand was that his monster behavior was also in protest of these boundaries. It's also partially why detachment has taken me forever. So yes NC for me right now is best.

And an update... all 3 kids have sent various levels ( from "disappointed" to "scathing" ) texts to H with the fall out of OW at the bar.  S26 has stated that OW will never be welcome in the family and he never wants to meet her, S24 won't show anyone what he sent, but I get the impression it was pretty harsh and he wants NC with H, D21 has sent him two texts and both were heart wrenching but firm. All 3 sent them without asking for my input, because they did not want me to prevent them sending to H. I am beyond proud of all 3 of them. The responses I saw from H show almost no empathy and are full of revisionist history. Kids are not letting him get away with lies, blameshifting or BS excuses. H has not been heard from in 5 days.

( MadLuv if you are reading.. they are now seeing this being done "to them". He is lying "to them", their friends are involved, and they are humiliated. You called that. And things are falling apart at the seams ).

[Treasur]

I can sort of shrug my shoulders incredulously and just add these behaviors to the pile.

And tbh, that’s what detachment often looks like imho.
So well done you.
Maybe detachment has two bits. Being detached from the outcome which is not where you are at the moment. And being detached from their behaviour which is maybe more where you have reached?

But first there is that kind of ‘blimey, it/he really is how it is’ stage….our own ‘not in Kansas anymore’ moment that comes along with some version of acceptance, isn’t there? Sounds like a much easier more passive thing than I suspect it is for most of us in RL though…..and it sounds as if your kids are going through their own version of that now and working out how to deal with what they see in the ways that currently feels best for them.  But I imagine that is hard to watch from the bench as a parent.

[UrsaMajor]

And an update... all 3 kids have sent various levels ( from "disappointed" to "scathing" ) texts to H with the fall out of OW at the bar.  S26 has stated that OW will never be welcome in the family and he never wants to meet her, S24 won't show anyone what he sent, but I get the impression it was pretty harsh and he wants NC with H, D21 has sent him two texts and both were heart wrenching but firm. All 3 sent them without asking for my input, because they did not want me to prevent them sending to H. I am beyond proud of all 3 of them. The responses I saw from H show almost no empathy and are full of revisionist history. Kids are not letting him get away with lies, blameshifting or BS excuses. H has not been heard from in 5 days.

If there is one thing that Mid-Lifers HATE above all others, it is being held accountable for their actions and the consequences associated with them. 

Forewarned is forearmed - the burn texts from the kids could go one of two ways...

• MLCH will likely either do a vanishing act (as it appears he is doing at the moment) and/or
• Monster will rear it's ugly head blaming you for their reactions....

Just so you are aware of the most likely possibilities and are prepared.   He might also monster at the kids for holding his feet to the fire (that he created)..... But, the fact that you are the stable parent that has shown you are NOT the cause and they are seeing through his historical revisionism puts you all on a much better footing to say

[sachat3]

I mean, I’m a similar time frame to you. 5 years now, 6 in November. I’ve done lots of soul searching and reading self help and I’m no longer standing. I’ve put myself in the “if” category. If clington ever becomes a person worthy of dating I’ll judge him based on who I see before me. Same way I would if it was Adam, Bob, Bill, Carl, Ted, Gregg or whoever down the pub or dating app or wherever. I’ll judge based on who’s in front of me.
But. I want to share this, not that it’s the same but it might help in some way. I’ve realised one reason I stayed was because I didn’t want to become some silly little statistic. Im currently 31 with an 11, 9&6 almost 7 year old. And at BD I was 26 with 1,3&6 year old. I think I stood because I didn’t want the judgement.
What is it that makes you want to stand?

Like you say, standing is a very personal choice. Nobody can ever tell you not to stand. I’m a firm believer of standing, if standing makes a positive impact to your life.

Your kids are showing just how resilient they are, you’re proud of them. I am too. My D9 is getting there in telling her dad things he won’t want to hear. But truth darts are just that! Truth!

[Onlythelonely]

Update/documenting ( and a question or two )

Treasur- I like your hypothesis of detaching in two parts. I am definitely more detached from his whacko behavior than before, I see the even if I do have some kind of reaction, I seem to bounce back a little quicker. I guess with practice that becomes easier every time.

Sachat-My IC discussed with me a few weeks ago about "preparing " myself for D if thats going to be the outcome. Her intention was to figure out how I deal with telling other people, facing the gossip and judgement, etc. Honestly I don't have any reservations or embarrassment about this if it happens. I just don't GAF what other people think, because I know that this is not my fault and I did everything I possible could to remain married. This is on H, and I have no intention of accepting blame or pity for what H has done.

Ursa- Love the GIF. You are spot on.  Which leads to my update...

Neither myself or 3 kids have heard from H in over 3 weeks now. (full disclosure, they are not reaching out to him either). 

A little background on this- during " high replay " 4-5 years ago, H basically went from an amazing, involved father, to an almost non-existent presence in the house.  Then after discovery of OW, there was a definite change in his relationship with them. He started making an effort to spend one on one time with the kids at least weekly, and spent time at the house with all three of them.  ( this mirrored his relationship with me as well ). Though the kids loved the increased attention, all of us felt like he was acting like an alien who landed on earth and had to check the "good father box". He was here, but not really invested, and every interaction was very scheduled and mechanical and very much on his terms.

So for them to go three weeks without communication is new for all of us, very much uncharted territory.  I'm dealing with the fallout from all three of them trying to navigate this. They are all varying degrees of hurt, angry, and incredulous over his behavior. They are all 3 holding each other accountable to not reach out to him, and they have talked to IC about this being his mess to clean up with them and that he needs to be the grown up and be accountable.

I guess one question I have are anyone's thoughts on WTF he is thinking. I bounce back and forth between he is angry at them and blaming them for NC, or he is ashamed, embarrassed, guilty, and does not want to face them, or some combination of both? ( I know, don't focus on him..but honestly if I understand the psychology behind it it helps me detach, plus I'm trying to guide my kids through this ).


Question #2.. There was another "public" sighting of H and OW in an area far from our home. I'm guessing he went away with her for a weekend.  I have read RCR's articles about what happens when the OW gets comfortable in the relationship, that this is actually a good thing. I'm having trouble understanding WHY that would be. Does anyone have experience with this when it happens? H has said in the past that OW is very jealous and prone to temper tantrums when she doesn't get her way.  That also there is emotional blackmail about what he "owes" her. I'm not sure if I believe him but it is nice to think about.

Thanks everyone

[MadLuv]

I guess one question I have are anyone's thoughts on WTF he is thinking. I bounce back and forth between he is angry at them and blaming them for NC, or he is ashamed, embarrassed, guilty, and does not want to face them, or some combination of both? ( I know, don't focus on him..but honestly if I understand the psychology behind it it helps me detach, plus I'm trying to guide my kids through this )

  I also think understanding the psychology has helped me. I think it is a little of both on your question ( IMO) I know my XH is embarrassed and shameful, but he also still has moments that he blames the kids also. I think it is that not being able to fully accept their actions that makes it a little of both

Question #2.. There was another "public" sighting of H and OW in an area far from our home. I'm guessing he went away with her for a weekend.  I have read RCR's articles about what happens when the OW gets comfortable in the relationship, that this is actually a good thing. I'm having trouble understanding WHY that would be. Does anyone have experience with this when it happens? H has said in the past that OW is very jealous and prone to temper tantrums when she doesn't get her way.  That also there is emotional blackmail about what he "owes" her. I'm not sure if I believe him but it is nice to think about [ /quote] I think it is good because they let themselves slip. They start to show their own flaws. The more secure they feel then they think there is no threat. My XH OW/wife definitely has got more and more brazen on her ignorance and materialism. She thinks she is bragging, but she actually is embarrassing herself like a teenager that has not learned values. The OW/OM truly are always affair downs.

[forthetrees]

Looked at your prior posts and here are some thoughts:

He got caught in a lie by your D with bar pic and probably at first was embarrassed but could have turned it around to how dare she judge him with OW support. He may have twisted it to the point where the kids owe him an apology before reconnection. Or... good ole compartmentalization in high gear. Obviously he is omitting the part about him being the parent and the one who should be reaching out. Sounds like he dug a really big hole and is wallowing in it. In the end your kiddos may be better off with NC while he´s incapable of being honest and considerate of their feelings as hard as this silent treatment is. Also, in a weird way it confirms that something is terribly wrong. They will do best by going NC to regain their emotional centers vs. using NC as a punishment. If they use it as a punishment it will hurt them as well. While you cannot control a MLCer, you can grow on your own. The MLCer never gets to take your ability to grow.

[Treasur]

Imho Vanishers vanish primarily to avoid dealing with something difficult.
Then they backfill the space with some justification that absolves them and blames someone else.
But their primary drive is avoidance.

Sounds like your h might have a quadruple whammy to avoid - the challenge/hurt of your three kids plus the potential displeasure of a jealous ow. So he gets to avoid dealing with his kids’ reactions and he gets to avoid dealing with ow busting his bits. (I think RCR’s point is that standard ow types lose some of their ‘adoring’ mask when they get comfortable so they tend to show their less appealing colours?) Meanwhile both he and ow get to feel better by blaming your kids and doubtless you….

I agree with ftt though that helping your kids start to see NC as being more about a healthy protective boundary for them as opposed to a punishment for him is a good thing. If for no other reason than it will help them to take care of their own wellbeing appropriately when he next pops up with some version of rage, sadz or let’s pretend nothing happened attempt at charm.

[UrsaMajor]

I guess one question I have are anyone's thoughts on WTF he is thinking. I bounce back and forth between he is angry at them and blaming them for NC, or he is ashamed, embarrassed, guilty, and does not want to face them, or some combination of both? ( I know, don't focus on him..but honestly if I understand the psychology behind it it helps me detach, plus I'm trying to guide my kids through this ).

Stick your elbow in a pot of green and tell me what it tastes like.... You'll have about as much success in trying to figure out WTF he is thinking....

His "thought processes" look a lot like this....

I agree with ftt though that helping your kids start to see NC as being more about a healthy protective boundary for them as opposed to a punishment for him is a good thing. If for no other reason than it will help them to take care of their own wellbeing appropriately when he next pops up with some version of rage, sadz or let’s pretend nothing happened attempt at charm.

This is vitally important. NC can NOT be a way to "punish" the Mid-Lifer or to "show them the error of their way." NC is used to protect the LBS and others involved (or not) with the Mid-Lifer by allowing the LBS & Co. to regain their own sense of equilibrium, to heal, and to establish boundaries that are good for the LBS & Co. NC is a method of self-protection for the LBS.