[MadLuv]

My daughters IVF was successful and she is pregnant. She is also having a girl which we haven’t had on the side of the family for 18 years. She had to tell family last night the gender due to her son slipping and telling  her ex-in laws. The only person she didn’t tell was  her father. I know she wants him to know and to be involved, but she is not budging on her need to have him put the effort in to be i n her life. As she has said. He is not in his grandsons life, so I doubt this would do anything for him to make and effort and if he isn’t for his own living children or grandson, then I wouldn’t want him only reaching out for this one that hasn’t been born.

It’s all very sad to me. I haven’t spoke with my ex in a year now, but I have thought about contacting him letting him know and giving him the opportunity to reach out to her and to start trying to build a relationship before the child comes. He would have to do it now without letting her know he knows. Then I realize that is manipulating the situation to still fix something that is his responsibility. If he was involved he would know. It is a moment that made me want to still try to fix. Not for him, but for her. It is just so unbelievably sad how far he has gone. I am sure that it is killing my D33 that  his OWife’s older daughter had a baby in April and he is going to be in his life and not his own grandchildren's life. It still blows your mind.

Anyways… not contacting him obviously, but the thought still did cross my mind.  I hate what he did to me, but I detest what he is doing to his own children and grandchildren. If anyone has had this situation play out I would love to hear about it.

[Treasur]

First of all, congratulations to you and your family on the news of a new little girl to join the gang - that’s lovely, and I hope all goes smoothly with your daughter’s pregnancy.

I understand why you had that momentary thought but I’m glad that you wisely saw that it would have been sticking your fingers in to something best not. Not just bc, as you said, it would be trying to manipulate the situation to clean up some of the normal consequences in Aisle 5 of his choices and that’s not your job in life. Mostly tbh bc I think it would have been disrespectful to your daughter and that’s an active relationship in your life that matters to you….leave it be, let her decide when/if/how she wants to inform him and how she manages her own boundaries just as you manage yours.

I’m sure though that it came with a bit of a sad echo. Bc to we LBS these things matter and it is sad to see them discarded or devalued by our ex/spouse. Almost another bit of WTF really. But above all, congratulations on a new member of the family soon to come! Bc that is happy news.

[MadLuv]

Thank you Treasur- so true

 I think she wants him to know and if I had told him it would be for him to connect now and build and allow her then to tell him herself.  He doesn’t deserve consideration like this. She will definitely not accept him back “ just because” , but I think with social media she will post some things publicly at some point in hopes he finds out through snooping OWife.  Like you said, not my place.  My “fixer” mentality still creeps in,  but luckily I now see him a little more “creepy” to be honest.  That helps not to step back in. He needs to earn his way back in his kids life by accountability, reflection and effort.  It still is all so sad for my kids. I hate that the most.

[MadLuv]

I dont journal much anymore, but try to check in and catch up on others here and there. Today would have been my 33rd wedding anniversary. My XH brother and family came to stay with us for the weekend for swimming and family time. Unfortunately or fortunately still trying to decide…. Things took a turn. Talking to my 9 year old niece she asked me what side of the family I was on her moms or dads ( harsh reminder that 4 years for her was enough to not remember her uncle and I together) I said I was on her dads side as I was married to his brother. She then said Uncle  (omit name )XH??  I said yes. She said. You dont look like who I remember. Gut  punch. I knew right there she had met the new  ow/wife. 

I said, oh? Have you seen your uncle? She then proceeded to tell me that there were all to go on vacation but he had to cancel as he had some money issues.  That is not true. So, not sure why he cancelled. It is OW 50th this year. I think she probably said no this year. So, my XBIL and family were going to go with him and his NEW family on vacation and also his other brother. Now, of course they should spend time with him if they can, but I felt lied to again. He went and took his OW/wife to see his mom when he found out she was sick last year and they all went out for dinner. My D33 own grandmother said he came and was gone and was not himself and looked old and she didnt  know what happened to him. When D33 asked if he came alone she said yes. She then said, have you ever met her. She said. i have not.

XBIL has told me they only exchange holidays texts that dont go into a conversation. That was not true. They were planning a vacation? He said, he also called his brother to let him know he was coming here and then tried to catch up with him, but XH told him that he wasn’t going to share with him because he didnt want him to have to lie to us and XBIL said, I appreciate thats.

At this point I said you are all lying to us. You are all avoidants and this is not ok. What he is doing to his kids is not ok. My XSIL told me she never wanted to meet her, but they went out to eat and were going on a vaca. I told my XBIL that I always said that if his brother started to reconnect with him that I would take myself out, because then I felt he could also then connect them with his kids.

I said, how do you think our kids would feel knowing-that you are on vacation with her kids and not them? I told him that I thought it was best at this point to sever our relationship, but that I hoped they did stay connected to our kids and grandson. He said, you know my B has never offered much on his life. It is all bizarre what he has done and I still cant wrap my head around it, but he did seem very happy. He looked physically horrible. Skin and bones and face dropping all over, but for all appearances he was joking and seemed to be more himself. He then said, but I don't know if that is all show. It was an hour dinner and he can put on a show for an hour.  I told him I dont think you should share whats going on with your B with me, but I have only asked if you conversate or are connecting. I dont need details, but I do need to step out if you are going to embrace a women that help take  apart my family and enables your brother to not be accountable.

Now, back to the xMIL on XH on being happy. This of course is not at all what xMIL told D33. Also, XMIL has been to his new house twice. Yet, BIL said he did not want her on the vacation. This whole family is avoidant enablers. No one has difficult conversations with XH. They just take any kibbles he gives. This is their right and I said it is your brother. That relationship is more important than yours with me and I feel that maybe he would be more open with you if I was not around and I feel that way with the kids also, but I cant take myself out of their life

He asked what he could do. I said, maybe if you have a conversation with him as k him what he needs to reconnect with his kids. Tell him that I am removing myself from a relationship with his family and I hope he can reconnect with them and his kids. 

They are all here today. XSIL was already asleep when all this came out, so today will be interesting. Anniversary today and my birthday on Monday and this weekend was fun yet tragic as I know I have to let that family go in every way now and I will miss them. I do however see that how they handle things in there life are all pretty similar and it is not acceptable for me.

[Nas]

I guess my question is, when you dig deep down into your relationship with them and its true meaning to you and to them, and what you value in them and what they value in you, if you were to “let that family go in every way” how much will it hurt you and how much will it heal you? Does one weigh a lot more than the other? I don’t know anything about your relationship to them so this is a question that only you can answer.

[Evermore]

I guess my question is, when you dig deep down into your relationship with them and its true meaning to you and to them, and what you value in them and what they value in you, if you were to “let that family go in every way” how much will it hurt you and how much will it heal you? Does one weigh a lot more than the other? I don’t know anything about your relationship to them so this is a question that only you can answer.

I agree with Nas that thinking this through carefully and weighing the ramifications either way is important.

I had to do this myself a few years ago. SIL2 (who I am incredibly close with) started socialising more with xH and OW. She posted group pics of them one day on FB and it was very painful and confronting for me. I let her know that and we had a few words (nothing major) and she blocked me on FB (she’s a bit techno-challenged which is hilarious because she’s one of the cleverest people I know (but also one of the ditziest sometimes  ) and though that would be the easiest way to stop me seeing what she was posting, but I digress).

For about a year we didn’t spend much time (any? I can’t remember) with each other or correspond much. This was HARD as she was up until then one of my most important support people. I remember just after this visiting SIL1 and being a snotty dribbling mess as I was telling her that I thought I needed to back away from the family. She was crying as well! It was horrible.  She said ‘but you’re my sister!’ 

Gradually though SIL2 and I started to see each other more again (I didn’t really stop seeing SIL1 in the end). And now we see each a lot again. It’s just an unspoken rule that we don’t talk much about xH and OW. And when we do I’m ok with it these days (nearly 6 years out).

I know all situations are different.  And I know it is hard and painful and feels unfair. But if you value these relationships I hope you can sort through it all. I know my life would be a lot smaller without these people in it that have truly been my family for nearly 30 years. If however you think it will cause you too much grief to stay connected with them, that I’d also a fair decision. Hugs either way.

[MadLuv]

Thank you Nas & Ever
I think where I really struggle is that  lets say they do go on vacation with her and her girls. Then my kids aunt and uncle are condoning and enabling the mistreatment of their blood relatives . In talking with my xBIl and Xsil yesterday they both said that they thought they would go and just have a vacation where they havent been and they really didnt expect much engagement. That XH said that dont expect them to watch their children all week because they wont. My SIL and BIL would never do that and I found that such a weird thing to say. Then they said he said. We dont really do anything but sit on a deck and drink beer and take in the view, so just know that. So, they said it was almost like he was telling us. You do your thing and we will do ours.

Then XH told him he would pay for the place as they only got charged 2k since they cleaned it so well. I know for a fact he paid 7k, so it was like he was worried he would tell me. He is still not wanting his kids or me ( I am understandable) to know anything about his ANYTHING. He cancelled in May and they were to go in July and they weren't happy about that. I just think D31 is pregnant and it would be devastating tor her to know both her daughters once again are on a family vacation and one with her new baby, but her father cant be bothered with the children or grandson or granddaughter on the way.

Everyone is going to go on vacation with them and play like it doesnt matter. I told them that he was my favorite person, but he is the worst person I know now. I dont know anyone that would do this to anyone., but we lost a daughter and my kids lost a sister and now they lost their dad. Supposedly because of depression over the loss of our daughter and his inability to escape that pain with us. Yet, he will discard his remaining children.

So, how do I remain in contact with them knowing they will not say one word about what he is or has done to his own children. To me it just helps him keep his fantasy alive. That there are no repercussions to his treatment of us. I said, he may wipe us out, but I am left here. Dealing with the pain he caused to us all. Picking up the pieces of what he did. It’s not fair that he the. Gets his new life and everyone thinks its ok to not call him out. Its not how I work. XBIL said, I dont have any emotional conversations with him because I know he will shut down. So, he does know him. When I went into more details this weekend with them this weekend my SIL cried. My BIL said, I understand now seeing D31 face and eyes well up. I see the pain. I just don’t think they got it before. SIL said, we hate the situation, but we love you guys. How do we navigate this??

I said, I was going to ask those that have been through it. Which is why I posted. Thank you for any and all with insight.

[Nas]

I have some thoughts just reading this and I want to say upfront that my intent is to be helpful so apologies right at the start if any of it upsets you. I think almost every LBS reading along can understand how hard it is to navigate existing relationships with people who are in both of your lives.

I think your sister-in-law’s question of how to navigate it is a really honest one and something they are probably struggling very much with. if what you need from them is for them to condemn him for his behavior towards your children and to step in and try to intervene, you are probably going to find yourself disappointed. We can’t control other people, and your brother-in-law and sister-in-law know this as well as you do. it’s not their place to step in and tell him what to do with his life or to stop doing the things he’s doing, just like you can’t. But he’s still their family, so It seems like they are trying to plan things with him that they can also benefit from, like a vacation to a place they’ve never been to, so they can still stay connected to him in perhaps a bit more of a detached way. Going on vacation is less intimate than visiting each other’s homes regularly and sitting around a dinner table talking for hours. You can see the person and spend time but it’s a more superficial kind of time spent. You’re in a new place, you’re talking about the place and the food and the weather.

It’s clear that you are still their family as well though. You can’t control them anymore than you can control your ex-husband or your adult children or anyone else. Same rules apply to everyone in our lives that apply to our MLCer. If the relationship holds value for you, I would encourage you to think about whether you can have a relationship with your brother-in-law and sister-in-law where you just enjoy the moments with them and think of it as just your relationship with them and not in terms of their relationship with him or anyone else. Your need to have someone talk to your ex-husband about his relationship with his kids is about control that we all know we can’t have. Letting go of that need for control will Improve your ability to enjoy the time you have with family who clearly believe you matter to them enough to continue having a relationship.

[xyzcf]

My thoughts...you want them to take sides and you want them to take your side or they loose your relationship with them.

He has moved on, acceptance of that means that there is no controlling who he contacts or doesn't contact or interacts with.

I get that he doesn't see his own children and goes on vacation etc with his new family......this hurts on many levels and hurts our kids.....

If you value the relationship with your BIL and SIL (and I don't see the need to call them your "X", they did not divorce you) then let go of their freedom to be with and contact whoever they wish and enjoy the time they want to spend with you.

Perhaps request that they do not tell you anything about their contacts with him, although you will probably find out things along the way...you seem to know an awful lot about his life, including how much he is spending on this vacation rental...how is this helpful to you?

I am not a part of my husband's life anymore. My life is my own but I would not eliminate people I love because they continue to have contact with him...

Just my 2 cents worth.

[Standing Strong]

Hey ML 

Just my experience........ people on the "outside", even if they know what has happened is wrong, don't understand, etc...... they don't engage until the MLC'er "wakes up" and either starts talking or has some revelation which is shared. It stinks, but they don't have any power during the process. They could influence at the potential cost of losing that relationship..... there's few people who have that strength or internal character where their sense of right/wrong overrides the desire to not rock the boat. After all, for most this isn't their fight and they're only going to watch from the sidelines and hope that something good happens.

-SS