[loo030]

I talked to Larry Billota a few days ago and we talked about our childhoods and it all fit in really well with us. We came to the conclusion that the environment I created was negative based on our childhood.  When I mentioned in my original post I made mistakes that is pretty much what I was referring to. He said I need to create a better environment. So I was hoping that maybe it was something I could talk to my wife about because I have been pretty detached for a month or so and not talking much at all. I guess I was thinking it maybe wasn’t a mlc and I would see how this conversation went.
So when I brought it up my childhood and hers and how it helped create the situation we are in. At first it was not to bad she just sat there and listened. I encouraged her to respond and didn’t get much.  Then the monster came out. She said she has been working on saving our marriage for 16 years and she is done now. She said so many things that just were not true. She was trying really hard to make me the bad guy. I stayed calm didn’t interrupt and listened and acknowledged everything she said. The things she would say showed how confused her mind is right now. She would say I don’t hate you but would not acknowledge any positive feelings towards me. She blamed herself alot and said it was her fault we were in this situation then say stuff like I don’t want to talk anymore because you keep interrupting me which I never did at all. It was really frustrating to try to have a conversation with her because she was just so hellbent on coming up with a reason to hate me and she really struggled to come up with one. I owned up to my part on a negative environment. I told her I was standing for our marriage and that made her angry . She finally just monstered and I tried to end the conversation a couple times but it was hard to come up with a good way to end it. I really didn’t want to end it with her mad. I was hoping it would be a positive conversation to help move forward.   She just kept escalating and getting mad for really no reason other than I tried to talk to her and basically I can’t and won’t magically disappear.  It really confirmed to me that it is a mlc. Not sure what to do now. Talk don’t talk, is not talking creating a more positive environment? This is all so confusing.

[Helpnewc]

It is. This is very much my story and sounds like MLC.

I am a year ahead of you. You won’t like what I am going to say as I did not listen when I was told. It is a marathon. There are no quick fixes and there may be no fix at all.

My wife said I ignored problems for years. She is probably right that I did not realise how unhappy she was. But when I did she is not prepared to forgive or move forward. The truth is somewhere in the middle. It was not as bad as she says and not as good as I think.

I would encourage you to stop fixing. Just focus on yourself and being calm. It is very hard. Work on yourself. Exercise a lot. Try to control your thoughts.

You are not going to talk yourself out something you behaved yourself into. And sadly the only control you have is in your own well being.

[loo030]

Do marriages actually survive this because right now she can’t even admit she ever liked me? It is so mind blowing to have someone who loved you so much be so cold in an instant

[OffRoad]

There are some return stories (lavender and purple icons), and some still standing after many years. You can decide to stand, but still take care of yourself. And you can decide not to stand 2,3,5 years down the line if you choose. You can change your mind daily. But you can't make it better or fix it.its not really about you or anything you did or didn't do.

Standing Strong has a good thread about his decision to stand, and go live his life while his W figures herself out. It's not for everyone, but a very good read.

If you want to talk to her, talk about mundane things, not relationship things. My xh lied to me, lied about me, gaslighted me, stole from me, verbally abused me, then abandoned me. A person who could do that is not going to have an honest conversation. Your W needs to make you the bad guy to justify her poor decisions. She is not going to have an honest conversation.

Some marriages survive (though the odds are not in that favor). But there's a lot of not so good times to get there. If you mean to stand for your marriage, batten down the hatches and start on your own journey. Change what you want or need to for you. You could jump through every hoop your W will give you and it will never be enough.

[Songanddance]

Do marriages actually survive this because right now she can’t even admit she ever liked me? It is so mind blowing to have someone who loved you so much be so cold in an instant

But that is MLC.  Do not expect the MLCer to even consider you in their thinking.  You are the closest person to them - you know their flaws, their weaknesses and most of all you know that this is not them that you are seeing and witnessing.  Therefore you are the person who is the most "dangerous " to them.  When my H BDd me, he started to cry - I went to offer him a hug and I shall never forget his face which was one of terror - he put his arms out to stop me even getting within a few feet of him and shrieked (yes shrieked) "Don't come near me - I don't want you anywhere near me!"
That cut me to the quick and I was incredibly shocked - in hindsight I think it was that specific action and words of his that started my PTSD not so much the news of OW.

Can a marriage survive - well you have to look bravely at this and say to yourself that the marriage you knew and had is dead.  You are still married and choosing to stay married is down to you.  Marriages that recover from MLC are usually stronger and much more than they were before. The challenge is the time it takes and the LBS choosing to heal and detach from the situation.
Some marriages do end in divorce - mine ended in separation because, even though we are fully reconnected after 10yrs since BD,  my S will never forgive H for what happened.  And so to ensure that my S feels safe  (because in fairness I allowed H to be a stay at homer and S was subject to some awful behaviour) H and I live separately.
We're still married - he calls me his wife to people we meet. He has transformed into a much better person and we could, arguably, live together again and reconcile.  But it's my choice not to.  H has still much to learn about himself and I am so content with my life.  Whether that will change is not necessary at this moment in time.

MLC changes people; it changes marriages; it changes perspectives; it changes everything and in the long run, these changes can be for the better. It's up to you as the LBS to accept the situation (very hard to do in early months or years)  detach and move forward one tiny step at a time. 

[Reinventing]

loo030, it is hard to grasp that this is not about you and not about the marriage, we get that.

The MLCer has fallen out of love with themselves and you are part of "themselves" since your lives are so intertwined. They look for a reason for their discomfort with themselves and you are an easy and convenient target to blame. Some say its been bad for 1 year, then change stories to 5 years, then 10 years, etc.

They also point to things like, "you left the vacuum cleaner on the stairs", "the dog is too fat", and "you bought a lawnmower when we were first married" as justifications for why they are no longer in love with you.

What happens is that to fix their discomfort with falling out of love with themselves, they dream up a fantasy life with all new things. Monster typically comes out in two places. One is when you (sometimes just your presence does this) challenges their notion that you are the source of all bad feelings about themselves. The second is if you challenge their fantasy life.

The fantasy life gives them a temporary dopamine increase (new car, new looks, new other person, new house, etc). With each dopamine increase, they feel justified that the old things were the source of bad feelings about themselves.

The fantasy life and the MLCer have similarities to how people addicted to drugs act to make excuses for and to deny that there is a problem. In this case, the fantasy life is their drug, it is what provides the temporary high--until it doesn't.

It takes a looooonnnggg time because they have lots of new things to try and each new thing gives them a temporary boost.

This is why your time and effort, as much as you can, should turn to taking care of you, turn to healing you. What can you do to heal?

[Treasur]

I’m with the others here that having that conversation, as good as your intent was, was a MLC 101 error. An understandable one, we get it, but an error nonetheless. It suggests that you have not yet reached the point where you see the real practical limits of your own responsibility and influence. Which is understandable too.

Whatever is going on with your wife, she will need to find her own way to comprehend and address. Or not. She may seem a bit bonkers to you, but she is not a child. And imho the advice about ‘setting an environment’ that might ‘fix’ her is not a healthy or appropriate one.

Any conversation about a ‘we’ will inexorably draw you into a R talk of some kind….and that rarely goes well. Right now, your wife does not want to hear anything you have to say that does not fit what she is telling herself. She does not want to buy what you are selling….in fact, she will probably react with anger and defensive monstering the more you try to push her onto your page. And she does not care about your thoughts, feelings or opinions much. That’s a hard thing to swallow after years of a shared life, we get it.

So, stop doing what isn’t working, my friend. Let experience give you useful lessons about what works for you and what doesn’t.

What could be productive though is to think about the environment that you set for yourself, what will help you process and heal from the residue of negative aspects of your own childhood. Share as much of as little as you wish about that here….you’re likely not alone in that experience though….how is the current situation triggering old wounds? What are your default ways of coping with difficult things that you think might need a new approach? What do you need most right now which you can do something about? What are you most fearful about? What are your boundaries that help you take good care of yourself?

Do most marriages survive this kind of hurricane? Tbh, usually not. That’s a hard pill to swallow too, isn’t it? Bc at the moment it’s like trying to save your marriage by clapping one handed. You may choose to not do things that add to the destruction, and that is part of deciding to stand, but you can’t control your wife’s choices. The few that do take a lot of damage and time - years not months usually - before one can even look at what is left to rebuild, or one’s willingness to do it, and that takes two as well of course.

What we can say is that there are things you can do right now to help YOU survive whether you marriage does or not. I’d encourage you to focus on that. Bc that IS something you can control and choose.

[Standing Strong]

Hey loo

Sorry you find yourself here. 
The good news is: you found yourself here!!! 

So she's about to be 50...... how about menopause? Has that started up yet?
It's obvious she's been thru a lot in the last few years...... but from what you wrote, maybe it's MLC - but maybe not.
Plenty of recent trauma and change in her life, but what about damage from early life? Did she have any serious meltdowns 10 years ago?

So Larry B says to make the environment better - not bad advise, but it's not something which will "fix" your problem. It's just a component (IMO) and a positive component. Yeah I'm familiar with his stuff, his viewpoint in a nutshell is waiting them out and being nice enough that they come around eventually [which is cringe - and doesn't work unless they end up with nowhere else to go]. The thing about Larry is: His wife was not in MLC. Nope. Not a chance. He describes his wife being horrible very early in the marriage, and then having a terrible marriage for three decades until finally snapping out of it. That isn't MLC, so how can he help men with wives in MLC? (you learn these things as time goes on  )
 
I'd say that RCR's coaching is far superior (IMO) for having your hand held and walking you thru things which are very confusing at the beginning (and there will be many confusing things).  Matter of fact, I'd really recommend it - especially since you talked to Larry already: compare and contrast the two. You'll find they are very different.

It's wonderful you are looking for help, that's fantastic. It's the 1st step towards a positive outcome, and you must love her very much.
Big pat on the back for you. Pace yourself Loo...... deep breaths. Go too fast and you'll blow yourself up. It may seem like you need to move as fast as possible..... slow down. The panic is in her, the panic is in you..... you're going to feed on each other. You'll have to be the one to break this loop, and that will take time.

Keep writing - it really helps. Get those thoughts, feelings, doubts and questions OUT!!! Don't hold them in. 

-SS

[xyzcf]

I'd say that RCR's coaching is far superior (IMO) for having your hand held and walking you thru things which are very confusing at the beginning (and there will be many confusing things).  Matter of fact, I'd really recommend it - especially since you talked to Larry already: compare and contrast the two. You'll find they are very different.

I had a strong need to understand what had happened and whether there was something I could do to make things better. I could not understand how this loved spouse could become so cold and cruel.

I searched the internet (which brought me to HS) and bought many many books on relationships and saving your marriage. I met frequently with other LBSers and talked for hours about the "meaning" of his actions and contact.

I think it is very normal to do this, to do everything we possibly can. I found RCR's articles and her responses to be the best thing to help me understand what was happening. I needed to understand MLC before I could start to focus on my own needs....other's stories were also helpful as I saw time and time again, similar stories.

Although we "advise" you not to have any relationship talks, it's a hard thing to do at the beginning. All our married life, we talked through any issues that were a problem so to learn that this is something that they do not participate in, sometimes takes us several attempts, and knowledge of what a crisis means.

Your BD was 4 months ago, a very short time to adjust to this new person, a very short time to even consider that this is all just  a mistake and that she will realize and with work, things will sort themselves out.

The length of  time that a crisis takes, seemed impossible to me. Years ago, RCR said 2-3 years and I screamed "I cannot do this this for that long"..and that was revised to 3-7 years, there are many of us whose spouses are still in "crisis" more than a decade later.

Do marriages actually survive this because right now she can’t even admit she ever liked me? It is so mind blowing to have someone who loved you so much be so cold in an instant

RCR started this site because marriages sometimes do survive this. I know that the "stats" are not very positive, but there really is no way to calculate how many MLCers return...too many variables and often the LBSer is long gone.

We search endlessly for return stories...after so many years, it seems to me that there really is no way to predict and certainly nothing the LBSer did, for those couples who reconcile....other than be open to the possibility ...and forgiveness.

I still believe that reconciliation is possible but my mental and physical health became vital, and so my thoughts switched from will our marriage survive this to how will I survive this...that might sound over reactive, but this takes a toil on us physically and sends us into a "crisis" of our own...until we get our feet on the ground again, and figure out how to live with out them.

Each person here, incredibly wishes to help and each of our stories and our beliefs about marriage are different. Your story will be different too. The support you receive here will help you, but you are the only one to decide what is right for you and your family, so take what you read that fits, and discard those that don't.

I wish you did not have to be here.....it took me a long time to feel whole again but it does happen.

[KayDee]

Do marriages actually survive this because right now she can’t even admit she ever liked me? It is so mind blowing to have someone who loved you so much be so cold in an instant

You may find, as many of us do, that some point later in time she denies saying these things. My H said some hurtful things when he left, when I saw him a year later, he denied saying them. Not sure if it is a memory thing, or if it's to do with how much they cycle/ change their minds. Probably a bit of both. Some cycle faster than others. It's very hard, but you have to take what they say with a pinch of salt. This includes the good things, because the same logic applies, and the positives can draw you back in, only to get a wallop later down the line. I know this from experience (I will update my thread soon.) A person doesn't go from snuggling and handholding one day, to this kind of vitriol the next, without there being a serious mental fracture. If you can look at that objectively, you will see this. She felt safe with you for all those years. You were a good H it seems. But knowing all this won't help your mental health much.

My therapist said: Depression changes people. And there's also the well-used, but true phrase - hurting people hurt people.

As to the survival - when I first came here, I kept reading the statement, words to the effect of - it is the LBS in the end that makes the choice. I sort of agree with this, but not necessarily in the context of the MLC returning remorseful and willing to work on the M. I believe it is more to do with a decision many of us make about how much damage we can endure. Or, a point we get to, because I imagine it is more a visceral response, that we know we've had enough. Being the spouse of a depressed person in the context of MLC, it is exhausting and it takes a toll. Yes, detachment is the goal, but realistically it takes time - you'd have to be a stone to do it within a year even, IMO (and I am quite a stony sort  ). My H left home over a year ago, I dropped the rope very quickly, and yet he still re-triggers me and causes me distress.

In a parallel story, about 7 years ago, a friend of mine's H performed a classic MLC script (he was Super FOO candidate plus, and had not long lost his father). Got pregnant with OW (when he and my F had long tried for a baby themselves) and all the dreadful stuff we all see here. She never analysed his behaviour much beyond it being $h!tety, selfish and narcissistic. No talk of crisis, no MLC etc and although she grieved deeply, she moved swiftly. Now she has a great job in NYC, new partner and a good life. ExH is living a shrunken life in rural Wales (no offence to Wales ) He tried, after a couple of years, to re-engage her but she wanted nothing to do with him. She has moved on. My point is not to criticize a standing approach, or say that this is what everyone should do (I certainly didn't) - it is really just to highlight being to be the rock, the stander, the lighthouse, it is likely so much harder than just ripping off the band aid. For those who have journeyed through to success, it may be worth it. But, IMO, we all need to keep a check on our own health and also the toll this situation is taking on our other relationships. All the emotional energy that goes into the MLC is energy not going into sustaining our children, family and friends. All of whom needs us.