[AlvinTheMaker]

Interesting advice MLC50.... Especially #4 on your list got me asking do you consider yourself pro-marriage?  Dropping the rope as the practice is called on this forum is something many achieve only through years and years of standing. I see it more as acceptance and attachment style change than giving up on relationship.

Also interested on your advice on trauma therapist. IIRC you mentioned you had not sought professional help during MLC (did not feel sick) or after MLC (did not see benefits from it). So why a recommendation like this for LBS but not following it with yourself? It seems a bit double standards.

Alvin

[Atari25]

First of all, these are positive things according to you, but clearly not her.

Mistake #1, you can’t possibly understand what’s going on with her since you are not in her head. And honestly, you can’t possibly understand exactly what she's going through. Maybe just acknowledge that you don’t understand but you believe her, it must be real. Maybe something like, “While I really can’t understand, I accept it. I know something happened for you” (Not to you). Then your behavior including your words have to back up that statement. If not, she’ll call bullsh*t and get more enraged.

Mistake #2, you put the blame on her. Remember, she has done nothing wrong (in her fantasy world which is where she lives right now) so vilifying her will just make things worse for you.

Mistake #3, she doesn’t understand happiness like you and most of the world. With that, she doesn’t understand the pain of other people either, including you and the kids. She may understand, “do what you need to do, it’s your life and that’s important”. But you also do what you need to do because YOUR life is just as important (but do NOT tell her that!!)

Mistake #4, you mentioned some sort of relationship between the two of you in the future. She may see that as either guilt tripping her or you refusing to really let her go, which adds to the pressure and increases her irritation, anger, and mostly her fear. This is fuel for the fire. There should be no indication of her ever crossing your path. Maybe you both can get on good terms in the future, but keep that to yourself. No relationship talk includes the possibility of friends or even just acquaintances on good terms.

If the two of you are at the point of D, then cut off contact with her as much as possible considering the kids. As far as anything D goes, everything goes through the attorney’s. The less contact the better for all involved, including and especially the kids.

Remember, she cannot communicate like you can. Even when she believes that she is thinking clearly or rationally, she can’t. That ability is gone….for quite a while.

Solid points. I saw a video from Monika Hoyt early on just after my wife left and she explained the confusion well. I also did some reading about how confrontation, vilifying and arguing would completely backfire and push the MLCer further away. I followed that advise of listening to her grievances , accepting and apologizing (so to speak). Although it has not brought my wife back it has deescalated her anger at me and that fear in her eyes I saw in the weeks leading up to the bomb drop. I still see delusion, confusion and odd behavior but at least she seems at peace. I don't wish anything bad happen to her, she has already been through a lot. Still looking for answers and anything I can do to get her back but that's the journey I suppose.

[WHY]

About the phobias thing.  We got into an argument and I asked her if she still has a mortal fear of death.  Which she always had but especially the last few years before her MLC.   

She said she has no idea what I was talking about.   She said she has never feared death.   I was shocked.   She has no memory of this phobia whatsoever.   And she was telling the truth. 

MLC is bonkers. 

[midlifecrisis50]

Also interested on your advice on trauma therapist. IIRC you mentioned you had not sought professional help during MLC (did not feel sick) or after MLC (did not see benefits from it). So why a recommendation like this for LBS but not following it with yourself? It seems a bit double standards.

Let me give you a little of my back story in regards to therapy.

When I was about 16 or 17 years old, I had a boyfriend who was extremely toxic for me. I couldn't understand why I couldn't just leave him. I thought that I was addicted to him or something. So I went into therapy. It was my idea that I would get in and get over this bump in the road. I was there for about three months. I got over that bump and then I was out. Over the next few years, I had other bumps in the road and I went to therapy for three to four months each time. The fourth time in my 20s when I felt like I needed to go back into therapy for help, I realized that I was the common denominator. So I made a commitment when I went in at that point.

I was with the same therapist for about six months and she was leaving. I think to go have a baby. So she passed me on to another therapist who was a guy. As it turned out, I was able to work with him better. For some reason, he just felt safer or something. I was with him for about three years by the time I was done. I definitely had an awful lot of growth. Now this was NOT recovery. This was regular psychotherapy, talk therapy. But I did learn an awful lot of things about me and through the course of that time, I did do some growing and life did get a little easier for me.

Now fast forward, I got married. That marriage ended after 14 years. I was in another relationship that, as it turned out, was very toxic as well. After one of the explosions, I suggested couple's counseling and he was totally against it. A couple of explosions later, he said, maybe we should get couple's counseling. So we were going to do that under my insurance because I had better insurance.

I called to make an appointment. On the phone, I was asked why I'm seeking counseling and I explained why. The person on the end asked me, if I had considered that perhaps I was in an abusive relationship? And I said, no, no, no. He loves me. It's just a problem with communication. So she makes an appointment for me. I had to go by myself as this is the way insurance works. So I go for the first appointment and the person that I'm sitting in front of asked me why I'm seeking counseling and I explained it to him. He asked me if I had considered that perhaps I was in an abusive relationship. I said, oh, no. It's not abuse. It's just a problem with communication. He said, all right and that he wanted to do a complete psychological battery just to see if there are any underlying issues with me.

So I went through a complete psychological battery. Once that's done, I'm sitting in front of him and he said, good news. Mentally you're very healthy. There are no underlying issues at all. You're very healthy. The only problem that you have is this relationship. To which I said, exactly, that's what I figured. It is causing a problem. And he said, yeah.

He said that he had selected somebody that he believed I would work very well with. And I was told, because of insurance purposes, there has to be a full and complete intake before we can bring him in. So it has to be just me. So I go to my appointment with that therapist. Ultimately, I was going to see her for about three months when it hit me while I was in an appointment. Oh my God. I am being abused. This is abuse. This is not love. He doesn't love me. He's abusing me.

And her response to that oh thank God, now we can start getting something done. As it turns out, she was a behavioral specialist. He put me with her because I had to see the behavior of my partner for what it was. Before we were done with that appointment, she had gotten me into a local group/class, and I started it that very week. That was class was for abuse recovery. That was a two-year long program. A few therapy appointments later, as I was driving in there for an appointment, I was thinking that I've gotten all that I can get out of her, this needs to be my last appointment, and I need to find someone who specializes in trauma recovery. When I got to that appointment, the first thing she said to me was, that she thought I have gotten all I could get from her and that I would do good with someone who specializes in trauma recovery, and I was like, wow, I was thinking about that on the way in.

She already had me lined up with another therapist in the office who specialized in abuse and trauma recovery, so I went in and I met with that woman. In that first meeting, she explained to me the goals of abuse and trauma recovery. And that it was going to be a bit different from the typical psychotherapy or talk therapy. The goal of trauma recovery was to get back pieces of myself that I've lost through the course of trauma, and the biggest goal was to regain my sense of safety.

I spent the next three and a half years working with this trauma recovery therapist. In the course of working with her, it's not just that one relationship and the knots that got tied in my brain through the course of that one relationship. It starts there, but as you're going through it, you are learning things because with trauma recovery, there's an awful lot of education done, and I can say for myself that I would have never been able to recover like I did if it wasn't for that education. That was very key in the course of my recovery.

The trauma recovery that I got into, I had that group/class was a two-year long program and I was very committed to that. I was committed to my one-on-one with the trauma recovery specialist, and I was committed to the education. I learned a lot.

When you're in recovery therapy, other things come up from other times in your life. There was at least a couple different cans of worms that got opened that I didn't even realize had been there. I pretty much had denied that these things happened, but during the course of trauma recovery, those cans of worms got opened, and they got worked on.

I do remember the first can of worms opened. I thought maybe I'll just go back living in denial. It seemed easier, but then I thought, no, because train wrecks would be the rest of my life if I went back into denial, so I had to stick around and work through all that. I will say this about trauma recovery. It's not fast. I was more than three and a half years, all told, in trauma recovery. It can be, at times, extremely difficult, and at times, it can be unbelievably painful. By the time I was done, I thought I would do that again in a heartbeat, because what was on the other side was so much better. I just can't even explain how my inside world was so different and so much better. My relationships were much lighter, much freer, and so much easier.

The connections that I had with everyone that was important to me had changed through the course of trauma recovery. They got healthier. They got much better. You don't even realize that a relationship is difficult until it's not anymore. So yeah, I absolutely am an advocate for trauma recovery based on my own personal experience in it.

Now, you have mentioned that when I hit my MLC, I did not seek professional help because I didn't feel like I was sick. At the time I was like, no, that'll just make things worse. Now, looking back on it, I can say for myself that would have just made things worse.

But you can see by my history that I never had a problem with getting help when I needed it. I believe that a part of being an independent person is knowing when you need help and being able to reach out and get it. So I am definitely pro-therapy because I know the benefits personally. I've been there.

All of this is one of the reasons that hitting that midlife crisis made no sense to me because I knew that prior to that, I was pretty mentally and psychologically healthy and stable.

I was happy in my life. I had peace and joy. I absolutely did not understand it because of all the different things that I had done throughout my life to be healthy. Now after coming out of my midlife crisis, I didn't go for any professional help because I didn't see benefit from it because I was done, I was out of it. I was once again a whole person. My ability to feel returned and my ability to empathize with other people was back. My sense of right and wrong was no longer upside down like it was in my MLC. It is the same ideas about right and wrong that most of society has.

Remember that coming out of the midlife crisis is a long process. Becoming a whole person was pretty much piece by piece, but I am whole. I have peace, something I didn't have while I was in the MLC. So no, I just don't see any benefit from it for myself. I think I have benefited far more from this thread than I ever would in therapy right now. I do know that should I ever have an issue with life, I would have no problem whatsoever going to get help. I never viewed therapy in a negative way, and as you can see from my story, I have done quite a bit of therapy in my life with very positive outcomes, well before I hit my midlife crisis. I was done with trauma recovery at least three years before I hit the wall.

So yeah, there will be times that I will suggest trauma recovery to somebody. I did go through it myself and I personally know the benefits. I hope that clarifies some things for you.

Now I will say that while a large percentage of people who hit a midlife crisis do in fact have what you all refer to as FOO issues, but according to studies, not everyone who has a midlife crisis does. That really is not a prerequisite. It may make things worse, no doubt. It seems to increase one's chances of having a midlife crisis. But it's not a prerequisite according to most of the studies I read. I had already worked through all of mine well before I hit the wall. And this is one of the reasons why, for me, it didn't make any sense.

[midlifecrisis50]

Interesting advice MLC50.... Especially #4 on your list got me asking do you consider yourself pro-marriage?  Dropping the rope as the practice is called on this forum is something many achieve only through years and years of standing. I see it more as acceptance and attachment style change than giving up on relationship.

I don’t think that if someone walks after their spouse hit a MLC that they are giving up on the relationship. I don't believe that any of you LBS gave up on your marriage or your partner, even if you walked right away. The person you married is gone. It’s a totally different person.

I think as far as marriage goes, that's an individual choice. I was married for 14 years by the time that came to an end. There was cheating involved. I stood for years in my marriage. I had to do what I had to do to get myself to a place to be able to do what I had to do. I had to stay until finally enough was enough and then I had to walk. Now, it’s possible I might get married again. And should I get married again, I want it to be for the rest of my life like I thought the first marriage would be.

I think marriage can make for a fuller life. I mean, to have a partner by your side when you're going through the ups and downs. It's kind of like the difference between getting on a roller coaster ride by yourself. It's fun. But if you get on that roller coaster ride with a good friend, it's far more fun. It's a much better ride, it's much more exciting. I guess that's how I see marriage.

If you feel like you need to stand, then that's what you have to do. If you feel like you need to walk, then that’s what you have to do. You have to sleep with yourself at night. So whatever it is that you choose to do, do that, and have a clear conscience. At a point in which someone decides to walk after their spouse hit a midlife crisis, whether right in the beginning or years later, you've got to be able to do that with a clear conscience. And if you're going to stand, you've got to do that with a clear conscience too. You have to live with yourself.

I do think that if you choose to stand, you can still build your life around the MLCer and live a joy filled life with peace. It doesn't mean that you have to get into another romantic relationship. You can have a full life without being in a romantic type of relationship. I think many can build and live a new and wonderful life while their spouse is dealing with their MLC. If they don’t come back, you have a wonderful life that you built. If they do come back, then the two of you can merge your two lives together like you did in the beginning. I think that you can still live a full life with peace and joy while standing. So if you choose to stand, fill your life, don’t put your ability to enjoy life on hold.

But standing or leaving, I think your focus should be on maintaining your own mental health. There are some who ended up in a MLC either triggered by or as a result of the trauma from their spouse having one. I mean, imagine you're standing for six years and you do reconcile, and then BOOM, you hit a midlife crisis. There you go again, your world exploded again. So I think you need to maintain your own mental and psychological health, whether standing or walking.

While I don’t think all LBS need trauma recovery, I do believe that some can absolutely benefit from trauma recovery if their spouse is attacking them, especially if it's daily or near daily that you're being attacked. This does something to your psyche and you have to protect that and stay healthy.

[midlifecrisis50]

About the phobias thing.  We got into an argument and I asked her if she still has a mortal fear of death.  Which she always had but especially the last few years before her MLC.   

She said she has no idea what I was talking about.   She said she has never feared death.   I was shocked.   She has no memory of this phobia whatsoever.   And she was telling the truth. 

I'm not surprised. You just forget. Somehow, those fears we had before we hit our MLC don't exist for us anymore. It's crazy!

MLC is bonkers.

You are NOT joking...not even just a little bit! 

[midlifecrisis50]

If you can, please share the thing that Shocksis triggered.  It may provide us and you with some answers.  There are a lot of folks here with different perspectives that could shed light on the issue. 

It had to do with the death of her dad and her husband not getting her to his deathbed. It reminded me of unresolved anger from an incident just before my mother died. That was NOT family-related. But, from that, I was reminded of some unresolved deep wounds I had from some things that some family members said and did around my mother's death.

Before I was able to look at those, I was hit with another trauma, then another. So, I didn't "stuff" anything, I just didn't have the time and space I needed to process them before a bigger fish hit my plate.

You're the most self aware MLCer I've met.  If anyone has answers, it's got to be you!

LMAO! That's too cute! I don't think I have all the answers but if it makes you feel better to think of me as some sort of superhero, then don't let me get in the way of your delusion, lol 

[midlifecrisis50]

Just curious.... When in thick of it, did you find any difference between verbal and written abilities (both input as well as the output).....a common theme with MLC is slow paperwork, and I wonder if it is so because of different cognitive abilities or simply not giving it a priority.

My communication style definitely changed, both verbal and written. I don't think it's a priority thing, I think it's probably more of a cognitive thing. My verbal output wasn't as clear nor was my ability to listen and understand what was being said. I had to do my journaling via voice recording rather than writing or typing which was how I journaled before I hit a MLC. I couldn't get it written fast enough before the thought was gone, so I used a voice recorder.

[Nas]

So I went through a complete psychological battery. Once that's done, I'm sitting in front of him and he said, good news. Mentally you're very healthy. There are no underlying issues at all. You're very healthy. The only problem that you have is this relationship. To which I said, exactly, that's what I figured. It is causing a problem. And he said, yeah.

I have been reading along on this thread - for various reasons, it's eliciting an awful lot of things that I'm using as an opportunity for self-reflection at the moment, rather than active discourse. But I'm cherry picking just this one point, because this truly stopped me in my tracks.
Please know this is just an honest question on my part: How could your therapist fully confidently say the relationship you were in was the singular, sole cause of all your problems, without considering that you were one half of the relationship that came together by choice and asking you to reflect on why you were in the relationship, what drew you to it, which (and I say this as someone healing from an abusive marriage that I made excuses for over many years) is surely a key point, particularly if you were in toxic relationships prior to this one? A repeated pattern of choosing toxic partners does not seem to be a wholly outside problem - I speak from brutal experience. I shudder to think what my emotional state would be right now if I had been told by a therapist that my former husband/relationship was the only cause of my problems (as if removing him would be some kind of cure all) without forcing me to also examine myself and how I got there. Because I didn't get put in the relationship (passive "victim" for lack of a better word), I chose to enter it (active participant). And not looking at myself and my part in it would doom me to repeat a very painful history.

Again, truly an honest question from me: have you ever confronted the reason(s) that drew you to repeated toxic relationship patterns, and if not, how could you be assured you would not ever enter into another one?

[midlifecrisis50]

Solid points. I saw a video from Monika Hoyt early on just after my wife left and she explained the confusion well. I also did some reading about how confrontation, vilifying and arguing would completely backfire and push the MLCer further away. I followed that advise of listening to her grievances , accepting and apologizing (so to speak). Although it has not brought my wife back it has deescalated her anger at me and that fear in her eyes I saw in the weeks leading up to the bomb drop. I still see delusion, confusion and odd behavior but at least she seems at peace. I don't wish anything bad happen to her, she has already been through a lot. Still looking for answers and anything I can do to get her back but that's the journey I suppose.

You validating her like that (even if what she says seems delusional) might help her to feel just a wee bit safer. It sounds like the info you had did a bunch of good. Can you link any of it here?

Depending on where she's at, it might be more like settling down a little rather than peace. But it's a good thing and maybe even a good sign. Maybe the more she is able to settle down, the closer to coming out of the fog she gets IMO.