[midlifecrisis50]

Please know this is just an honest question on my part: How could your therapist fully confidently say the relationship you were in was the singular, sole cause of all your problems, without considering that you were one half of the relationship that came together by choice and asking you to reflect on why you were in the relationship, what drew you to it, which (and I say this as someone healing from an abusive marriage that I made excuses for over many years) is surely a key point, particularly if you were in toxic relationships prior to this one? A repeated pattern of choosing toxic partners does not seem to be a wholly outside problem - I speak from brutal experience. I shudder to think what my emotional state would be right now if I had been told by a therapist that my former husband/relationship was the only cause of my problems (as if removing him would be some kind of cure all) without forcing me to also examine myself and how I got there. Because I didn't get put in the relationship (passive "victim" for lack of a better word), I chose to enter it (active participant). And not looking at myself and my part in it would doom me to repeat a very painful history.

Again, truly an honest question from me: have you ever confronted the reason(s) that drew you to repeated toxic relationship patterns, and if not, how could you be assured you would not ever enter into another one?

I think you might have misunderstood. I had a toxic relationship when I was 16-17 years old then one at the end of my 30's. My husband wasn't toxic or abusive. He cheated, but for years he was quite respectful. And I didn't go into counseling, I entered TRAUMA RECOVERY, big difference.

How could your therapist fully confidently say the relationship you were in was the singular, sole cause of all your problems[, without considering that you were one half of the relationship that came together by choice and asking you to reflect on why you were in the relationship, what drew you to it, which (and I say this as someone healing from an abusive marriage that I made excuses for over many years) is surely a key point, particularly if you were in toxic relationships prior to this one? It was the cause of the issues that I was dealing with at that time, not that it was the singular, sole cause of all my problems. There is a big difference here. The therapist knew that my real problem was in NOT seeing the behavior as abuse.

There would be no sense in having me reflect on my stuff BEFORE I realized that I was being abused which includes being brainwashed. The knots in the mind have to be untied before we can think straight. If the focus was on MY part, I would have stayed in the relationship and "tried harder" which would have been detrimental.

A repeated pattern of choosing toxic partners does not seem to be a wholly outside problem - I speak from brutal experience. I shudder to think what my emotional state would be right now if I had been told by a therapist that my former husband/relationship was the only cause of my problems (as if removing him would be some kind of cure all) without forcing me to also examine myself and how I got there. Because I didn't get put in the relationship (passive "victim" for lack of a better word), I chose to enter it (active participant). And not looking at myself and my part in it would doom me to repeat a very painful history. Trauma recovery does require us to look inside and do the work. I didn't spend 3.5 years of therapy appointments just listening to someone tell me that my partner was bad. That much time, there was a lot of work that got done and that doesn't happen by pointing fingers and laying blame.

Again, truly an honest question from me: have you ever confronted the reason(s) that drew you to repeated toxic relationship patterns As far as confronting these things, that's what trauma recovery does. Yes, we look at why we choose and have certain people in our lives. We dig into that. It's usually some trauma in the past that was never worked on. It's not about owning our part in a relationship necessarily (sure, we do that), but it's more about understanding why we do the things we do. Where does that come from? Why are we attracted to the type of people we are attracted to? And when other trauma is uncovered, it's not about laying blame either. It's about processing the emotions that stem from the traumas.

how could you be assured you would not ever enter into another one? This reminds me of something I read during my recovery, "Strong at the Broken Places". Recovery does this, it makes us strong at the broken places. There is no guarantee that we won't EVER find ourselves with someone who came in under our radar. But trauma recovery includes a TON of education. While I can't be 100% certain (no one can), I can be confident that it's not likely because I now know what to look for, both with the other person and inside of me. And if it does happen, I'm confident I will see it much quicker and have the ability to leave.

Certainly, I cannot cover everything that was done over the course of 3.5 years in a single thread, it would take a book! The therapists I had specialized in recovery and I was blessed to have had the best in my state.

I hope this shines some light on your questions.

[Nas]

Thanks for the response. I have also shared some of my experience in healing from complex trauma, in large part on the articles and links thread under the resources tab.
Thank you for clarifying, when I read the quote you shared that said “There are no underlying issues at all, your only problem is this relationship,” I was looking through the lens of my own experience in treatment for trauma and CPTSD and I was just truly thrown that a therapist would make that assertion. It sounds so cut and dry, which as we know, trauma is not. In fact it’s the opposite of it lol. In my case, if a therapist had said that to me at any time in the recovery journey, It would not have been helpful.

[WHY]

Im no psychologist or therapist.  But listening to your string of abusive or bad relationships.  Doesnt this have something to do with your avoidant/insecure attachment style? 

Being attracted to these individuals vs the good guys.  This speaks to issues of low self esteem.  Which is what nearly all MLCers seem to display.  These people pleaser personality traits, always saying yes type person because they're afraid of rejection.  So many MLCers display this.

Which begs the question.  Where does this some from?  Did you have a good relationship with your parents?  Did dad travel a lot and always away from home? 

Or do you think these issues of low self esteem could have developed in isolation from the toxic relationship that you had as a teen. That this scarred you so badly and ultimately led to an identity crisis in later life?  How was your life before this relationship?

https://psychcentral.com/lib/loving-an-abusive-partner#why-someone-may-love-an-abusive-partner

https://iacp.ie/files/UserFiles/IJCP-Articles/2016/Intimate-Partner-Emotional-Abuse-and-the-Application-of-Attachment-Theory-by-Gavin-Haugh.pdf

[midlifecrisis50]

Thank you for clarifying, when I read the quote you shared that said “There are no underlying issues at all, your only problem is this relationship,” I was looking through the lens of my own experience in treatment for trauma and CPTSD and I was just truly thrown that a therapist would make that assertion. It sounds so cut and dry, which as we know, trauma is not. In fact it’s the opposite of it lol. In my case, if a therapist had said that to me at any time in the recovery journey, It would not have been helpful.

I think that's why therapy is good, they know how to approach someone. If I was approached like you were it would have been detrimental to me and my recovery. And if you were approached like I was it would have been detrimental to you and your recovery.

In my case, I didn't have CPTSD, but I was told by my therapist that one relationship caused mild PTSD for me. Through the course of recovery, those symptoms disappeared. There were a few books that were instrumental to my recovery, that's why I say that education is key. Without that part, recovery will take a lifetime. The knots in the brain have to be untied and education is a large part of that.

And yes, trauma is very complex and the recovery from it is even more so.

[midlifecrisis50]

WHY
Im no psychologist or therapist.  But listening to your string of abusive or bad relationships.  Doesnt this have something to do with your avoidant/insecure attachment style? You're right, you are no psychologist or therapist and, as I mentioned earlier, I have sat with a few amazing ones in my time.

You keep trying to hammer me into what you want to believe, but AGAIN, I did NOT have avoidant or attachment issues. And that was even according to the therapists I worked with. And, no offense to you, the highly trained and experienced therapists and psychologists I worked with would know better.

Also, I never said that I had a string of abusive relationships. I had exactly 2 in my life. Just 2. And I went into therapy right away with each. Don’t you think the therapists I had knew what they were doing? I do.

Being attracted to these individuals vs the good guys.  This speaks to issues of low self esteem. Which is what nearly all MLCers seem to display.  Key word here, NEARLY, but not ALL. It also speaks to how a covert narc can come in under anyone’s radar. You should read the entire article you linked… I did. My self-esteem was, and is, just fine. My self-talk is pretty amazing, even if I do say so myself.  I only had issues with my self-worth and self-talk as a result of that one relationship with a covert narc.

I have always had some of the most wonderful people in my life. You'll hear me say that at least a few times in my vids. I have friendships (both male and female) that date back well over 40 years. I have made friends all along the way in my life and keep most of them. Occasionally I make a bad judgement like most, but I move those out of my life. I have always said that I was blessed with the people in my life. I’m sure that’s NOT because I am attracted to bad guys but rather because I am attracted to good people.

These people pleaser personality traits, always saying yes type person because they're afraid of rejection.  So many MLCers display this. I am NOT a people pleaser, never have been. In fact, I don’t understand that way of being. I’ve never been afraid of ticking someone off and I have always felt perfectly comfortable with telling anyone “no”. I don’t understand why someone would avoid upsetting someone, especially someone close to you. Shouldn’t they be safe? I am me, I am always me, and I do not side-step someone else’s emotions. Nor do I ever tell anyone that what they feel is wrong. One’s perception of a situation might be, but feelings? They just are, whether we are comfortable with them or not.

Which begs the question.  Where does this some from?  Did you have a good relationship with your parents?  Did dad travel a lot and always away from home? I believe I covered this a few posts up. My relationship with my parents was always great. No, dad didn’t travel, he came home straight from work every day. No, there was no "bad touch" within my family. I don’t have any “daddy issues”. Or “mommy issues” for that matter.

Or do you think these issues of low self esteem could have developed in isolation from the toxic relationship that you had as a teen. That this scarred you so badly and ultimately led to an identity crisis in later life? Lol, really? Think about what you are suggesting here. That one short-term relationship in ones teen years could fester for nearly 40 years (escaping roughly 7 years of therapy with qualified therapists) and then suddenly explode in an all-out identity crisis at age 50. Outside of Stockholm syndrome, I’m not so sure this idea is sound.

How was your life before this relationship? My life before that first toxic person was great. I was a pretty happy teen for the most part. Why wouldn’t I be? I was exploring the world around me. It was fascinating to me. I have almost always been a pretty positive person with a great outlook on life. I love life! Even when I choose to just watch TV. But that’s rare, lol

Think about this: If I was an insecure person, would I have been here answering all these questions about my “crazy” experience in a MLC? Wouldn’t I be too concerned about what you all would think of me?

[Atari25]

You validating her like that (even if what she says seems delusional) might help her to feel just a wee bit safer. It sounds like the info you had did a bunch of good. Can you link any of it here?

Depending on where she's at, it might be more like settling down a little rather than peace. But it's a good thing and maybe even a good sign. Maybe the more she is able to settle down, the closer to coming out of the fog she gets IMO.

Here is the video. I think I watched it 5-6 times in the weeks after she left. It helped me understand it wasn't my fault because for so long I blamed myself for her unhappiness.

https://youtu.be/lXiZ8S2Y-rY?si=wCjjNhVwGutxNNz0

You are right, I am probably not at peace yet. Especially when I wake up from dreams every night. As for the fog, I think it's as thick as ever but at least there is calm.

I sincerely appreciate the thoughts.

[marvin4242]

midlifecrisis50 I have been reading along and wanted to just thank you for willingness to engage and answer questions the best you can.

There is a tendency sometimes to try to understand this thing people call "MLC" when some of us are so hurt and damaged by it. I have seen many "theories" floated over time, and in my opinion it's a form of coping mechanism. It tends to be more common in the early days, and there have been a few around here who have proclaimed they have found the "root cause" and have a "novel approach" that will work. Some even have tried to prove or convince their MLCers that something was wrong with them. I say this with a lot of empathy, I remember how hard all this is for an LBS. I am guessing it's a feeling that if "the cause" can be found then the sufferer can regain some safety by being able to "fix" or "prevent" the pain.

I am still in semi-regular contact with my MLCer and from around month 2 after initial BD when I started to understand what was happening I went into observation mode. I have been able to interact and see from outside what she is going through for the past seven or more years. And a lot of it lines up with your own experiences and observations.

I just wanted to say I find your sharing and observations very refreshing and constructive. It may not fit the narrative that some may require but it is your truth. So thank you.

[midlifecrisis50]

Atari25
Here is the video. I think I watched it 5-6 times in the weeks after she left. It helped me understand it wasn't my fault because for so long I blamed myself for her unhappiness. https://youtu.be/lXiZ8S2Y-rY?si=wCjjNhVwGutxNNz0 OMG! I wish this was available when I hit my wall. I would have watched dozens of times! I know she is addressing how MLC shows up in a marriage in her vid but the information she gives would have helped me. If only as validation that MLC is a real thing and I had it. When she said that if it is a valid MLC then the person WILL one day come out of it, that would have been gold for me!

I really like the way she differentiates a “true MLC”. Other things can mask as MLC, like depression as she mentioned, but there is a clear difference, like she said. So many people just don’t get the difference but will tell me that I don’t know when it comes to things that are common through all real MLC even though I had one myself. 

This really stood out for me:

“It causes them to ask questions about anything and everything in their life”

Like EVERYTHING! It’s kind of like seeing the world for the first time yet you have memories of it.

Now I have to ask my sister and kids if my memory was distorted when I hit the wall. I don’t remember anyone telling me that then but that was 7 years ago and a different person from who I am now since coming out of it.

marvin4242
I am guessing it's a feeling that if "the cause" can be found then the sufferer can regain some safety by being able to "fix" or "prevent" the pain. Somehow, everyone has to come to terms with what happened to their life in order to get in a place of healing. After all, you all have so much invested in your spouse, and the idea that there is “nothing I can do” is far worse than the idea that “it’s my fault”. But no one can control the MLCer, they cannot even control themselves. They are no longer full-grown adults with the capacity and understanding they had when they were an adult.

Some people feel like they have to put a tag on it, something that has a clear path of treatment, so they can finally come to a place of acceptance. That is accepting that they didn’t cause it, that they can’t change it, and/or they can’t do anything about it. It’s the person you were going to spend the rest of your life with, it’s only natural you want to help. This seems to be the part many have the most difficult time accepting. I get it.

I came to a place where I stopped fighting it. I had to; it was a losing battle. So I embraced it with as positive of an outlook as I could at that time. And it was scary AF! It’s a journey, one I had to go on, like it or not. Once a MLC hits, the only way out is through. And hope you might have sanity when it’s done.

I really believe that I got through mine as fast as I did (4.5 years) because I landed in an environment that allowed me to embrace it and go through it without any judgment. My aunt and uncle let me do what I needed to do. They trusted the process. They supported me and kept an eye on me. They were great all through it.

P.S. She DID treat me like I was 14 years old. 

[AlvinTheMaker]

All of this is one of the reasons that hitting that midlife crisis made no sense to me because I knew that prior to that, I was pretty mentally and psychologically healthy and stable.

Having the experiences and tools you had from your past might explain why you were so aware during your MLC experience.

And maybe it was not psychological issues that caused MLC with you, but physical ones. Human mind and behaviour is easily "distracted" by number of things in our body.

Thanks for sharing.

Alvin

[Atari25]

OMG! I wish this was available when I hit my wall. I would have watched dozens of times! I know she is addressing how MLC shows up in a marriage in her vid but the information she gives would have helped me. If only as validation that MLC is a real thing and I had it. When she said that if it is a valid MLC then the person WILL one day come out of it, that would have been gold for me!

I really like the way she differentiates a “true MLC”. Other things can mask as MLC, like depression as she mentioned, but there is a clear difference, like she said. So many people just don’t get the difference but will tell me that I don’t know when it comes to things that are common through all real MLC even though I had one myself. 

This really stood out for me:

“It causes them to ask questions about anything and everything in their life”

Like EVERYTHING! It’s kind of like seeing the world for the first time yet you have memories of it.

Now I have to ask my sister and kids if my memory was distorted when I hit the wall. I don’t remember anyone telling me that then but that was 7 years ago and a different person from who I am now since coming out of it.

That video alone brought me out of a very dark place of not understanding what was happening. I had absolutely no idea that MLC was a real thing and from her description I knew that was my wife, she checked almost all the boxed perfectly. I often wonder how anyone would understand MLC without the resources available and connections we make on-line.

I am often dismissed by people who say I am being too nice and understanding about where my wife is and what she did. My mother so angry with her even though I explain MLC to her. But my never ending quest to understand things like this have led me to not be angry, just very sad and sorry this happened. My wife was dealt a lot of band hands and also made some mistake that likely caused her MLC. It's blown my world apart but I have my kids and I hold them tight, my daughter has been my savior. We are closer than ever.

I wonder now if I will still be there for my wife when she comes out of her MLC (if she does). I am now but in 2-3 year, who knows. The journey continues.