[kalypso]

Hello, greetings to everyone. It has been a long time since I last wrote here, because there has been no essential change in ny situation. I have just sporadically visited the forum to feel better. My MLCer husband is still living with the OW since September 2018. Its been 6 years now. There has not been any change in him, only that he seems more calm and friendly towards me. Our D is 12 now. He comes to my (former our) house to see her 2 or 3 times a week. Mostly he just stays in the same room with me because she doesnt really like him. We sometimes go to the beach (the former-?- family) or to visit his father and sister. Things are mostly calm. Since he left I have been alone and very sad, depressed but "frozen". I was grieving  for what we had and he threw away. Last month something happened to me and I " broke /melted" (sorry, english isnt my first language). I haven't really cried since he left, but suddenly tears flooded me and I cry almost every day. I decided I wanted to ask him one more time if he thinks about returning home. Our home. Last time I asked was in 2018, some time after he left Please dont say that I was asking for it, I know I was, but I coulnd't stand it any more. He said no. I knew 99,99% that he'd say no, but I had to ask. He didn't say anything else, it was a very short "conversation" and I had to ask him a few times because he avoided talking. He only talks to me about our D, his job, news and other superficial topics when he comes home, mostly he just sits next to me silently scrolling on his phone. For 6 years no question about me, how I feel etc. And as you all guessed, after todays "no" from him, I came here to write about my pain. I have really no one else to talk to. My friend who supported me is having her own MLC with multiple partners and it's ridiculous to talk to her about this. My parents died long ago. I found my first thread which has been archived, I will copy the link and hopefully you will read my story if you wish.


https://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?action=profile;area=showposts;sa=topics;u=8234

[Treasur]

First of all, I am very sorry for your pain and distress. Please don’t be afraid that others here will judge you. We all recognise that we do the best we can based on where we are at a given time. Sometimes that means we have to touch the ‘hot stove’ one more time as part of our own process of getting unstuck.
So you did. And now you know.

The real question now is what you choose to do from here on based on what you know now.

The words you use suggest to me that, at best, you may be living with a level of depression. At worst, a level of PTSD. Both can make us feel some of the ways you describe. Both can leave us feeling frozen, unsure and a bit afraid. Is that how you feel? These feelings are an effect of what has happened but not really about your marriage or your husband imho….our brains can trick us into believing that our ex/spouses were the problem and therefore their return is the solution. That’s pretty normal for most LBS for a while, but it isn’t actually the truth. And it can keep our brains focused on apples, metaphorically speaking, when what we actually need to focus on are pears.

Are you getting any medical or therapeutic help in figuring out how to take the kind of small constructive steps that can move us out of that dark, tiring place?

What do you feel might make life feel 1% better?
What do you think you might need to do differently now?
How can we best support you?

[KayDee]

Dear Kalypso,

You've been at this a lot longer than I, so I am not sure how my reply will land, but I wanted to share something that I realized a little while back. This is about myself, but maybe it will have some resonance. When I have these periods of extreme lows, I can see now, in hindsight, that they mark the the start of a new phase. Another rung up the healing ladder. Now, I see them as a very hard but cathartic 'push' and an exorcism of pain and grief. You say you haven't really cried since he left, you must have had so much sadness and grief built up that needed letting. You asked your H a question you said you knew the response to and perhaps, you subconsciously needed that painful response to 'slap' you out of your current frozen state. So although you feel very very low at the moment, you are feeling again. And in feeling you may start to  slowly move in a direction that is better for you. I apologize for being blunt, but your H is a man who doesn't even ask about your day. And he seems to make little effort with his D too. Other men are available Heck, other people are available. I truly believe, that what we invest your energies in is what flows back to us. But you are throwing yours into a black hole. I won't throw out GAL mantras - how we are fulfilled is different for all of us - perhaps a simple way to start is to think more about targeting your love/friendship energies into people who DESERVE it. Or activities. Or causes. Eventually, this will bear fruits of fulfillment and love for you. I am convinced of it. And I hope this new phase turns out to be the start of something new and positive in your life.

[kalypso]

Hello and thank you dear Treasur and KayDee for your replies and kind advice! You made my day better just by replying, and that's exactly the support I need.

Treasur, I realise that I am probably living with some level of depression, but in my mind this is normal (!), meaning that is the appropriate reaction to what happened. If I wasn't sad that would mean that my marriage and family didn't mean that much to me or that I have gottten over him, which I haven't. Because  I meant every word that I said to him about love forever, loyalty etc. This is how I am made, I do not give up and I tend to keep my word. The fact that he chose not to keep his word is his problem, but that cannot change who I am or what I feel. So my depression in my mind is normal under the circumstances.

I have been seeing two therapists but not anymore, because I didn't get any more help than that from a friend or books or this forum. What they ultimately both concluded to was to "accept it, get over it, find someone else and move on". And this is what all my friends and aqcuaintances think too. They say "you're young (46!) and beautiful, you deserve someone better". Even my local priest tells me I need to find someone else. I'm sure they have the best intentions, but this is not for me. Because I do not feel like it. I still love my H.

Furthermore, and I apologize to anyone who may think that I am being aphoristic, I cannot accept a place in a modern mixed extended family. I mean I do not want to have a partner or husband who has an ex and children from previous marriages. Those who can, good for them, but I just cannot think about it. So again, given my beliefs, my sadness is normal and justified.

Treasur, I am feeling an incredible saddness, but I believe adamantly that my H's return is the solution. If there could be another solution in the future I don't know, but atm there is not. 

I know what would make my life 1% better, but just superficially. More work, school starting for my D, errands etc. I will do some repairs in my house and have workers the following weeks. Things that keep my mind occupied and tire my body. But this is just supeficial.

I can guess what prompted me to ask my H again. Now it is summer, I have more free time. We were on vacation with my D and my cousin's family (she's also about to divorce her h). At the place we were there was a friend of mine, who I met because he did some work on a property of mine. This friend has fallen in love with me. He sent me pastry all last year, flowers for my birthday. When we met him for dinner he paid all our bills, although we protested. And I also found out that he had paid a percentage of my debt to the lady who rented us our appartment (she told me). I got furious with him, because I never gave him the right to think that there can be something between us more than friendship. So I put the money in an envelope with a card saying to not attempt this again. I also told him to stop paying our dinners because he gives the impression of trying to buy me and I am disguisted by it. He had to take the card, but I don't know if he will comply to the others when I see him again. It follows that these events had an effect on me. Here is this person crazy about me, without me having done anything. It probably reminded me of a time when another person, my stupid H, did not the same but similar crazy things. And that reminded me how it feels being loved (by someone you love too). So, you see, I was probably triggered by that.

KayDee, you're right, there is so much sadness and grief build up that needs letting out. I wonder if I should have waited a little more with my crying before asking him. Because now I feel again that his yesterdays "no" put my feelings in the freezer / box again. This is probably my defence mechanism to protect myself and be able to care for my D and do my job etc without crying every day. But this is not healthy. In my view it is inevitable and understandable, but certainly not healthy. So this is my life right now? Will I be keeping my love in the box for the next 6 years waiting to hear the next denial for my H?

KayDee yes there are other men available but I am not available! Please never apologize to me for being blunt, because that's exactly what I want and need. Yes my H is atm an utter ***, and will probably remain such. But I cannot forget that he wasn't, I cannot delete my feelings and our 25 years past and promises.

 I have turned more to church, I try to pray and to invest my energy to my D, cat, job, house! I' m sorry to say that all my friends are either divorced trying to find new partners or married having affairs. I don't judge but I avoid conversations about affair partners. I am considered stupid for our time.

I don't think that there will ever be a healing for me, because I do not believe there is something wrong with me. I see my sadness as a normal response to what happened. My H is the one who is sick and needs to heal. I realize this will probably not happen. And I have to accept it and continue living with my sadness.

[Treasur]

i am feeling an incredible saddness, but I believe adamantly that my H's return is the solution. If there could be another solution in the future I don't know, but atm there is not.

Let me be really clear first that it is no one else’s business - and certainly not mine lol - to tell you what you should think. Or to persuade you to change what you think.

If you are determined to not change how and what you currently think, then I suppose that leaves you with the option of learning how to live at more ease with it.
And that probably depends on how uncomfortable you feel with where you are now?

I think that’s probably true about a lot of situations in life for adults as we experience things that we don’t want but can’t change or control. Bc reality still shows up on real ways, doesn’t it? We can choose to see it as unacceptable, and therefore decide not to accept it, but it’s still there the next morning so we have no choice but to accept the consequences that come along with not accepting it.

And of course other people simply may not think the same way we do.

I absolutely did not want my father to be dead. Or my mother to vanish into dementia. Or to lose my home. Or to be divorced. Or for my former h to marry someone else and disappear from my life. Or to get cancer and death threats and PTSD. Yet, regardless of my opinion about it, these things all still happened to me and around me bc I could no more stop them than get the sun to rise in the west. I wish I could….i would have happily spent the rest of my life without experiencing the reality of any of those things!

Acceptance is a funny old word imho. It can feel like giving up or allowing or agreeing with something or as if it is an easy passive sort of thing. I found acceptance of realities that I absolutely did not want to accept to actually be rather hard work and not very nice to do at all. So, why did I do it? Bc I reached a point where the cost of living without doing it became too much to carry. I suppose I needed a kind of peace that I couldn’t find without doing it. There’s a saying that we humans can ignore reality quite well but reality keeps showing up anyway. We tend not to do big change internally as humans until it hurts too much to stay where we are, don’t we? It may not be always wise, but it’s pretty normal.

If what you think - about your marriage, about your h, about your own frame of mind being normal, about your wider life, about where you are -  you think is serving you well, then I guess you will carry on as you are. And that is none else’s place to judge but yours. If ypu reach a point when you think perhaps it is not serving you well, that you may need to explore some other options that are less A or B, then I suspect you will feel that need to explore different ways of thinking and approaching where you are and what next for you and your daughter.

If you can’t change some things, and you don’t want to think differently in how you look at them, what do you do until they happen the way you want? Or if they don’t ever happen the way you want?

Or, to it it more simply, how easy or difficult is it for you to live well with the cards you have in your hand right now?
Only you know the answer to that.
But I think it’s a question that most LBS here have had to struggle with bc we did not choose the hand and don’t know what will come in the next draw of the cards.

I am sorry for your sorrow. And I wish you well however things evolve.

[xyzcf]

Hello kalypso,

I want you to know that you are not alone in the way you feel about your husband, the sadness and the idea that being with another man does not appeal to you...that I feel the same way...and I have another friend from HS who also feels the same...we are both 15 years past BD. We both have remained in contact with our husbands...we do family things together with them.

I was very depressed for about 8 years.....I then found a therapist that does mind/body therapy...she treated me for PTSD which indeed it was...when your family is blown apart after 32 years. It helped a great deal.

I am however still sad at times...like you, I never wanted this and I also feel that it is normal to feel grief and that the depression is situational...caused by the ending of a life that was very special.

I also believe in the sacrament of marriage and the promises I made.....as you wrote...just because he turned away from those promises doesn't mean I have to.

Although I am lonely at times, I also have a really good life...... I understand that his crisis was not about me or our marriage, I accept that......he's changed, he is not the same man I knew for 35 years but there is still deep love for him.

I believe adamantly that my H's return is the solution. If there could be another solution in the future I don't know, but atm there is not.

I wish to validate this. I have a friend whose husband died suddenly the same year my husband had his crisis. She still misses him greatly and she receives support from others that this is ok..she loved him deeply and he died suddenly.

I don't get that support from many people but my grief is actually very similar to hers.  But the world doesn't see it that way. Widows are treated vastly different from those who are divorced.

Another friend from HS from around the same time frame has been is a serious relationship for many years..and it's good but she still misses her husband, and probably always will.

Many of my married friends are in pretty controlling marriages, and I feel for them..because I have the freedom to do whatever I like...and that is a good thing.

I have found many things that bring me joy, and I embrace new experiences and new friendships and am grateful that God is with me, giving me peace in the storm.

Some of the healing occurred over time, naturally...taking much longer than I would have liked but I totally respected my feelings and allowed myself to grieve...and those friends who have stood by my side for all these years without judging me or "telling me what to do"...they are my angels.

Intuitively, and with freedom of choice, he is in my life...not the way I would like....but because I have chosen to let him....as Christ has told us "love one another as I have loved you" and I believe these spouses very much need that kind of unconditional love.

[KayDee]

KayDee yes there are other men available but I am not available! Please never apologize to me for being blunt, because that's exactly what I want and need. Yes my H is atm an utter ***, and will probably remain such. But I cannot forget that he wasn't, I cannot delete my feelings and our 25 years past and promises.

I realized after I pressed 'post' that it seemed like I was saying 'get another man' - that's not the sentiment I was aiming for what I was trying to say is that when we have all this love, that is not reciprocated, it ends up being wasted energy, that sort of festers because it doesn't find a home. There's just a dead end. I kept thinking, early on 'where does all that love go' - I decided it did need to go somewhere because that reciprocal component of love is so important. We are rewarded by loving others and rewarded by being loved. We humans socially co-create our lives, it's what gives us joy, security and esteem (among other things). I agree with Treasur, only you can decide what works for you, I guess I was just encouraging you to see what it would be like to share some of that loving energy elsewhere. Not particularly a new man, but somewhere/something worthwhile. You say your H is an 'utter ****' and this is who he is now. This was my biggest acceptance point. This is who my H is now and there is no purpose in hanging onto an image from the past.  I hope he will one day be different from his self-serving current manifestation, but have zero effect on that. It is unknowable. I just know that waiting for that to happen would rob me of a full life and rob others of a a good friend, colleague and (maybe one day) partner. I hope you will be able to consider your value to other people, other than your H.

[Treasur]

To be clear, I am also not saying that you have to ‘move on’ or indeed find a new partner. (And I grew to hate people saying either one to me)

My situation and thinking is a bit different from Xyzcf but there are some similarities in our thoughts. I am also solo and have no interest seemingly in a new partner, but I agree with KayDee that love comes in many forms in our lives and that it is important.

Having lost my own family, as well as my h, I was numb to it for a long time but then found some real solace in the universe sending me various kinds of new connections that were not romantic ones but that still allowed me to use those bits of my heart that had previously been part of my life. I was a bit numb and self centred when I felt terminally wounded tbh, and it was nice to be able to feel some emotional connection again with other humans, to care about others, to support others rather than always needing to be supported.

I will always feel sad about my losses bc I loved my family and my h very much, so I’m not sure one necessarily completely ‘moves on’ from that loss. But I think one can find a way to ‘move forward’ instead and how each of us does that is a personal thing not a one size fits all thing.

What I found helpful tbh was to treat the situation as if my h had actually died, much as the others say, bc that was how my reality seemed to me. It might not have made sense to anyone else but it made sense to me lol….i found a book called ‘Second Firsts’ particularly helpful in trying to figure out my own version of ‘moving forward’ as opposed to ‘moving on’.

[kalypso]

Dear Treasur, xyzcf and KayDee thank you!

Treasur, please dont't say that it's not your place to tell me what I should think, because that's what I'm asking for! I am not saying that I will accept it, but I will certainly welcome it. I am not saying my choices or my way of thinking are right or the norm. I would like to hear different opinions and I wont get offended or anything. I welcome different perspectives because they can always help to see things from a different and more objective point of view.

I am very sorry that you got cancer and I hope you have gotten (or will get) fully over it and I will pray for you.

Yes, reality always shows up and catches us! I have learned this lesson from a very young age, since my mother died when I was 10 years old. But I think there is a difference between the need to accept something irreversable (like death) and our MLCr's situation, or an illness, or a job failure, debt etc. Because there is always hope and these things MAY change. Even in a case of serious illness, even if the doctors say otherwise, there is always hope. I also didn't want my mother diying when I was 10, or my father falling down with dementia unable to recognize me or anyone else for the past 4 years of his life, until he died in 2018 (9 months before my H left). But death is irreversable. My H's (and every MLCr's situation) isn't. This is a huge difference in my mindset. Btw, it might be better for me if my H had died in terms of coping. Of course I don't wish that! But I totally get what you say about dealing with the situation like your H had died. But I can't do that because I see my H 2-3 times weekly and communicate with him regularly (about D etc).

So yes, I inevitably had to live the past 6 years with the consequences of him leaving, and this in my mind means acceptance. But I am not accepting the finality of his decision, although I realize there is almost no chance of him returning. I just cannot give up hope for my own version of Resurgam  I also realize that I am not able to do anything to affect him or change his mind. Only God can do that.

In the mean time (or until I die, if nothing changes) I can only pray and live my life with my D as best as we can. Keeping in mind that there are people with problems that do not even compare one bit to my situation with my stupid H.

KayDee, don't worry, I didn't think that you were only telling me to get another man, though this could be the solution. In fact, if I was reading my story as a third party, I would maybe advise me to find someone else. But I cannot do that, atm at least. You're right that I should not be wasting my energy to my stupid H. And I try, I really try! But I am taking a break now

Yes, love comes in many forms and I appreciate that God has sent me many blessings in my life, my D being first. And I don't want to be or sound ungrateful. But because I think of my H and our marriage as a blessing, I cannot but always grieve of it ending.

xyzcf, thank you for validating my thoughts and letting me know that there are still other people like me! I know we are alike on the subject. But although I live my life as best as I can, even when I do things that bring me joy, I always think how much better it would be if I/our family could share that joy with H.

The (only?) good thing that my H's abandonement did is that it strengthened my faith to God. I always believed to the Lord, but my faith was very superficial. It may also now be superficial, but I try to pray and read and go to church. One thing that I learned is that we have to praise the Lord for everything that happens in our lives, be it good or bad. Not meaning that God punishes or causes bad things to us, but that sometimes allows them to happen for a reason, because they are ultimately good for us (not in human terms). For example, I lost the bus and missed an important job interview, but when returning home I met someone who made me a better offer. Of course this is very simplified and the meaning or lesson or the why of things happening may be revealed to us years later or never in this life. Of course that doesn't mean that we have to accept everything that happens without trying to change or overcome it, if we consider it bad, because maybe God's will is to teach us to insist and fight. Only time can show. We just have to trust that our lives are in the hands of the Lord. Now, I don't pretend to fully accept that my H's leaving is somehow good for me or our family, but the thought that our lives are in the hands of God is a great solace for me. One thing I am sure of is that if my H hadn't left, he would cause many fights and trouble at home, so maybe God allowed him to leave to protect us from worse.

I am planning some repairs at home and I was joking with my H last week asking him what colour would he paint the kitchen (he had painted the whole house when he was here). When he told me his choice I didn't agree and I replied "well, it's better you left then, because now I can paint it whatever colour I want!". But I would happily give away that freedom, I would let him paint the whole house green for all I care, as long as he was home&his good old self.

[forthetrees]

Please google Radical Acceptance. I think it is a fallacy to believe that your sadness is a reflection of how much you love your husband. If you unlink that belief you open the door to the possibility of joy. One of the sayings that helped through a lot was "Barn´s burnt down, now I can see the moon." Masahide. It seems that you are standing in the ruins of the barn looking at the ashes; dare to look up at the moon.

From my own experience and what I´ve seen on this forum over the years it appears that the MLCers have morphed into different people and literally have rewired their brains. Expecting your husband´s return does not jive with the reality. If for some reason he does return, wouldn´t you want to be aj joyful being rather than a broken person? The emotional scars from this are permanent but don´t preclude joy from entering your life.