[UrsaMajor]

UM, you wrote that "His statement about him expecting you to come begging for him to come back is EXACTLY the MLC mindset that they want. They want to see the LBS sitting in a pile of snotty Kleenexes in their rocking chair, crocheting lace doilies and pining away for them. Nothing scares a Mid-Lifer more than to see an LBS growing forward and living a good life, especially because they (the Mid-Lifer) is usually NOT living a "good" life...". I don't know if this statement is true, but even if it is, why should I care about what scares the Mid-Lifer? Do I want to scare him? Even in cases like mine, that I still want him, would I just "grow forward" to show him how useless he is? I will do what I choose regardless of him, not only because it will not affect his crisis but because I don't do things to scare people or show them anything.

UM, as I wrote in my previous post, I agree with a lot of what you wrote, but please kindly advice me about my unanswered question,  because I may be missing something.

So, if 1) the form of cake eating I allow is only beneficial to us and 2a) it has no effect on my H's crisis, then 2b) why do I care if he is absolved of his responsibilities and immune to the consequences of HIS choices?  I' m sure you re right about him cake eating, but why is that my problem? And what do you think me and D gain from stopping him eat cake, except punishing him?

I don't think you are getting much of ANYTHING from allowing him to cake eat (if that is what it is). My point was that, in your earlier post you described it as getting hit in the stomach again in his interactions. That tells me that it IS actually harming in some way. In addition, from my view, my concern would be that kids that observe this kind of behaviour over time come to see it as "normal" which it is most definitely not.

Why should you care if he is absolved of his responsibilities and immune to the consequences of his choices? Because, by your actions, to me it appears as if you are actually shielding him from those consequences, you are protecting his from his responsibilities. He is allowed to sit around on your sofa being sullen and silent while you are busting your proverbial hump as a single parent to be there for your daughter.

Let me ask you this. If it was your daughter sitting where you are now, what would be your advice to her?

[kalypso]

Hello dear UM and thank you!

I must admit that what you wrote is a fair description of my situation, from another point of view.

BUT:
Regarding: "kids that observe this kind of behaviour over time come to see it as "normal" which it is most definitely not":
 I wholeheartedly agree that H's behavious is problematic, but from the time he left up to now I have not stopped talking and trying to explain to D exactly that. The first thing that I told her is that her F is sick/broken, that something happened to him that we cannot unfortunately change but that he still loves her in his way and he was a great person before. We do have conversations about him ocassionally, I have told her that his behaviour is despicable but I still love him and want him back. She has formed her own opinion about him, as 6 years have passed, she does not like him or want him (but sometimes reaches out and trusts him in some things). She also told me that when she grows up I should find and marry someone else, and questions me why do I still want this pig! So I don't think that my D sees and accepts her father's behaviour as normal, and I certainly don't. But what would be the alternative? To see him less or not at all? And why would this be more beneficial? It's H who loses by not having a proper relationship with D, not us, because we see him and understand that he is incapable of it, but we still get what little he can offer. Why depriving us of this would be a better alternative?

Regarding your statement that: " My point was that, in your earlier post you described it as getting hit in the stomach again in his interactions. That tells me that it IS actually harming in some way. "
You are right, but I was asking for it! It's not something that has been happening all these 6 years. This is the reason I decided to update my story, because I asked him again to return and he said no. All these years we had not once had a conversation about it. He would only talk to me about D, the weather etc. So when I suddenly decided to talk to him about coming back some days ago I myself was asking for trouble.

To answer your question what would I advice my D if she were in my place,  as I wrote in a previous post, I would advise her to wait 2-3 years after BD and then find someone else. If she was like me and still wanted him back, I would tell her to do what I did.

Regarding this paragraph:
"Why should you care if he is absolved of his responsibilities and immune to the consequences of his choices? Because, by your actions, to me it appears as if you are actually shielding him from those consequences, you are protecting his from his responsibilities. He is allowed to sit around on your sofa being sullen and silent while you are busting your proverbial hump as a single parent to be there for your daughter.":
This is a fair and exact description of the situation. It doesn' t just appear like this to you, IT IS exactly like this. BUT MY MOTIVE is not to shield him from the consequences of his actions or to absolve him from his responsibilities. I allow him to just sit on my sofa while I bust my butt being a single parent because to me he is my H and D's father. And THERE IS NO WAY (and certainly not by throwing him off my couch) I could make him turn back to a wonderful H and a responsible father, if he doesn't decide it himself. I realize that currently he is such a piece of *** that takes advantage of me, but that is his choice! Do I have to be mean? I am not afraid of him, he can do no worse to me, I am just being me! So my question is: Why not let him on my couch? To punish him? It won't make me happier, I won't get any satisfaction or value or control or anything with that. And there are worse things I could do to make him take responsibility and make his life even more troubled and difficult than it already is. The question is why?

[Treasur]

Imho these discussions are the essence of what boundaries are about. And it is a simple but sometimes uncomfortable truth that we human beings don’t share the exact same boundaries; what is comfortable or acceptable for you may not be the same for me, and vice versa.

And if I understand you right, you seem to be saying that how it is right now works ok for you. If it does, then the other person’s motivation to cake or not is largely irrelevant. You’re ok to offer x and he’s ok to accept x so everyone’s fine.

The squirmy bit imho is that healthy boundaries sometimes need to get a bit piercingly honest about our own motivations and unspoken ‘contracts’. And if it is any comfort, you will not be the first LBS here who has had to think quietly and deeply about that. Are you really offering x in the hope of getting y? How solid is your acceptance of the limitations or value of what he brings to you and your daughter’s life table as the person he is now? And what is the real cost of x as life evolves?

Based on what you say, it seems you are saying that you are fine with how things are, maybe not a happy ideal but that you are content. Is that so? And if it is, I wonder if you can see that it is slightly at odds with coming to a forum like this asking questions and stating so clearly that you believe the only good solution is the restoration of a marriage like the one you used to have. Somehow, those two things don’t sit easily on the same plate from over here in the cheap seats and your responses sometimes, perhaps unintentionally, can sound a bit defensive when questioned. And that’s an unusual flavour when someone feels genuinely ok with where they are at in my experience.

If you’re fine with how things are - and that’s great if you are and it works for you regardless of what anyone else thinks - what do you want us to say? Or if you’re not really fine, what are you looking for that might be useful? Bc I’m a little puzzled, not judging just confused.

My wider question re the whole cake-eating blah blah issue is probably about your daughter. Not a parent so others know better, but I wonder how the current MO sits with your daughter. Bc of course she will have her own feelings and those can evolve as kids start to grow up, and there’s a big difference between 6 and 12 of course, and he has been awol for what is now 50% of her life. What’s your best take on what she wants and needs, and how she feels about how things are done right now?

[xyzcf]

Treasur stated:

Based on what you say, it seems you are saying that you are fine with how things are, maybe not a happy ideal but that you are content. Is that so? And if it is, I wonder if you can see that it is slightly at odds with coming to a forum like this asking questions and stating so clearly that you believe the only good solution is the restoration of a marriage like the one you used to have.

ALL are welcomed here.

Some are standers, some are not standers, some continue to love their spouses, others have no use for them.

This is not a place where people necessarily want "advice" but rather a safe place to voice their stories, thoughts and feelings.

Being respectful to others is key, because we have all gone through hell...no one would wish this on their worst enemy.

As a parent, I allowed him into our lives so that we could maintain some sort of family unit. My daughter needs her dad and understands he's not the father he once was. She and I have very open conversations about him and thankfully, their relationship has gotten better over the years.

We are not therapists. We are not here to explain to other adults what boundaries are, nor insinuate that someone is defensive when they are explaining their point of view or judge whether or not someone feels ok with their situation.

As some of us are accepting of our MLCers, we need also accept other's points of views that are different than our own.

[Dragonfly33]

I totally get what Treasur is trying to say here. I don't think she doesn't respect other opinions here or trying to unwelcome those that don't take her advice. To be honest, I also find Kalypso's purpose in coming here a bit confusing. Not judging but just confused because she's asking a lot of questions regarding her situation but what i've noticed is when others give their opinions, she seemed to actually have decided already which route to take. So I don't get the reason behind asking others here when you've already made up your mind. I understand that this forum is for everyone, you don't have to take anybody's advice if it doesn't suit your situation or whatever is it that you want. You can also just unload everything here without asking any advice. Personally I find it very helpful just to be able to write everything here. One of the things that helped me a lot in my journey. But this forum doesn't have to be a forum for taking a dig at someone because someone has a different opinion. I think Kalypso is old and wise enough to know which advise to take and which to discard. We don't have to accuse someone here of being disrespectful just because they have a differrent opinion or perspective. Just my two cents.

[Treasur]

Not the first time, Xyzcf, that you have put words in my mouth that I did not say and indeed often went out of my way to explicitly say the exact opposite. You’ve done it a couple of times that I recall and I have used the old rule if 3 and said nothing - but today was a rough day so hey ho, today I feel the need to say I’d prefer it if you didn’t please.

It seems entirely possible to me for you to share your perspectives without impugning others indirectly. Indeed, I have often spoken in support of the value of the diverse perspective you sometimes bring, even if it is far from my own opinion or situation. I’m not sure why you occasionally do it, but I find it disappointing that you do, perhaps bc I think better of you than that.

Still, you are entitled to your own opinion including what seems to be a rather poor opinion of me and my intent on this forum.

In the interests of clarity - either for Kalypso or anyone else quietly reading -I think the value that I can sometimes bring is to use my decades of professional experience as an accredited coach and counsellor to ask questions with an open mind about the answers. I do that here, as well as professionally, bc I believe that sometimes considering why we think as we currently think can give us new options. But sometimes of course that means a question might point at a metaphorical elephant sat on the sofa and that can be uncomfortable for most of us at times. I can only hope that I do so with the kind eye and genuine open curiosity that helps people think for themselves in a way which serves them well as that is my honest intent.

That is why I post in response as I do. And like most of us golden oldies, I try as hard as I can to be sensitive and realistic about the constraints of what we can hear as a newbie or in certain situations which are different from my own. Just as others did for me and for which I am very grateful even if their thoughts were not always an easy spoonful.

But as the old saying goes, it’s maybe worth exactly what you paid for it as an intervention which on this forum is nothing lol.

And I guess cyzcf i will just have to live with the fact that you join my former h and ow in self evidently not liking me overmuch. The sun will still rise tomorrow. Still, if it is possible, I’d prefer it if you could continue to voice your own entirely valid opinions here without the slightly indirect personal side swipe? Bc hey, life is tough enough for most of us without that kind of vibe, isn’t it?

Wishing you all the best, Kalypso, but I think a bit of silence from me on your thread might be the best thing now. You can always DM if you wish to.

[xyzcf]

kalypso has expressed several times that she is ok that her husband comes to her house without acting as a father. She has expressed that she feels this is in the best interest for her daughter.

The words which concerned me are these...I am taking them from what was written to her:

"it seems you are saying that you are fine with how things are, maybe not a happy ideal but that you are content. Is that so? (she has already said it is, a couple of times)

And if it is, I wonder if you can see that it is slightly at odds with coming to a forum like this asking questions and stating so clearly that you believe the only good solution is the restoration of a marriage like the one you used to have.  ( Might I ask what you mean by "a forum like this???) 

Somehow, those two things don’t sit easily on the same plate from over here in the cheap seats and your responses sometimes, perhaps unintentionally, can sound a bit defensive when questioned. And

that’s an unusual flavour when someone feels genuinely ok with where they are at in my experience."

And I guess cyzcf i will just have to live with the fact that you join my former h and ow in self evidently not liking me overmuch.

It has nothing to do with liking or not liking you.

I wonder how kalypso feels about questioning her decisons?

I see what is written, interpreting it, as you are so fond of saying, through a different lens then yours. There is not a right or wrong answer and no one's credentials are more important than another's.

Sorry you feel this way Treasur  We do not think alike nor have the same idea about MLC or that some things a parent does for the good of their children to continue to have a relationship with their MLC parent requires a sacrifice on our part.

Now perhaps we need to get back to letting kalypso tell her story.

[amazinglove]

Wow. Ok this is a very, very interesting thread and while I'm sorry for the obvious hurt feelings and misunderstandings on here - I LOVE YOU TREASUR and I hugely value every single thing you say! every.single.word. and xyzcf - you have been a beautiful, encouraging voice for me and I am grateful for your unwavering faith and wisdom - BUT the reason it's such an important thread (at least to me) is that it really, really gets to the heart of this struggle for all of us!

Figuring out how on earth to adapt to a world of crazy that is forced upon us by these low functioning, insane, obscenely selfish individuals is really the essence of what every one of us is grappling with. And there are no easy answers.

I was talking to one of the wisest, loveliest voices on here today in a DM and confessed that I had to call my H today to talk about legal stuff and was sick to my stomach about it, and she said that she had entirely gone NC and avoided her H for a long time and actually that was going to make her eventual forced contact to finalize a divorce much more stressful bc she'd buried it all.

And others on here are living with this mess of a human on their sofa and in a bedroom down the hall day after day. And others are still sleeping with their errant spouse occasionally, and still others have gone 'dim' or have blocked their numbers. We are all in pain and none of us really know what we are doing. We are, most of us, still digging out of a mess we did not create.

I would say that just as every marriage is unique and impossible to understand to outsiders exactly as it is, I believe all of this is much the same. Our personal histories, the quality of our former marriage, the attachment of our kids, heck, the ages of our kids, the childhood trauma in our MLC'er that we may know about, the quality of the human they were before BD, our personal beliefs about marriage and divorce, fears about loneiness or being alone, and so many other factors hugely play into this.

I think that the one thing we can all agree on is that there is no one simple, perfect formula or solution that fits all. That is the very reason we are all on here sharing our thoughts. Sometimes I really disagree with with someone has written here, and sometimes it makes me uncomfortable and  don't like it and then later on I can go back and see wisdom in it, when I've got a bit more distance. Also I see often many of us (including myself!) projecting our own situation onto others, because that's just human. I can say tho, without question the collective wisdom, kindness and sheer generosity of people in this group has been a godsend to me and I cannot imagine where I would be without it.

I am frequently astonished by how many truly wise, kind and brilliant (and articulate!) souls there are in this group. Perhaps as KayDee I think it was opined, our high functioning abilities is precisely why our (already hairline fractured from manufacture) MLC'er was drawn to us in the first place.

Kalypso i love your thread - because it's been a good old fashioned fiery debate and it has really made me think. And considering all the $h!tee that's been thrown at me (and all of us) making it impossible to see clearly most of the time, that can only be a good thing.

[Evermore]

I couldn't agree more with your post Amazing. All voices and opinions are welcome and valued here. It's the support and empathy that bring me here. I listen to the advice given to myself and others and take what fits my situation and story and can leave the rest. All stories are different. These types of discussion, whilst a bit awkward, can often bring out lines of thought that I (and others?) might not otherwise have considered. I especially like that, even during a disagreement all parties here 'play nice'.

[kalypso]

Hello dear Treasur, xyzcf, Dragonfly33, amazinglove, and evermore  thank you!

This is going to be a very long post!

As amazinglove said, I am really sorry for the hurt feelings in my thread. I don't personally know any of you, but as I have been reading the forum for quite a while, I have come to appreciate both xyzcf and Treasur's insight and thoughts.

I was not at all hurt or insulted with what Treasur wrote, as I read it in goodwill and interpret it as genuine questions and I'm sure that it wasn't Treasurs intention to be disrespectful.  I'm sorry to say though that another person could easily have read that they have no place "to a forum like this". So I'm sorry Dragonfly33, but I don't agree that xyzcf was "taking a dig"  at Treasur because of her different opinions. xyzcf just intervened to defend me, in case I took it wrong, and I thank her for that. In any case I didn't feel unwelcome and I will answer below Treasur's questions. As I also have some questions from your post Treasur, I would please you to reconsider and write again to my thread.

Treasur, I am a little perplexed with your post and I am not sure I understand correctly what you mean, so forgive me for any misunderstandings, especially as english is not my mother tongue.

You stated: "And if I understand you right, you seem to be saying that how it is right now works ok for you. If it does, then the other person’s motivation to cake or not is largely irrelevant (...) The squirmy bit imho is that healthy boundaries sometimes need to get a bit piercingly honest about our own motivations and unspoken ‘contracts’. (...) Are you really offering x in the hope of getting y?"

In my previous post I was not refering to the other persons motivation to cake eat or not, but to MY motive of allowing H cake eating, which is is not to shield him from the consequences of his actions but because a) to me he is my H and D's father and b) not allowing cake eating would not result in him turning magically back to a wonderful H and a responsible father. And I also think it's extremely tiring to behave in a certain x way for 6 years because I want to lure him into giving me y. I do x because I feel x.

- "How solid is your acceptance of the limitations or value of what he brings to you and your daughter’s life table as the person he is now? And what is the real cost of x as life evolves?"
The first sentence I didn't understand! The answer to the 2nd sentence is of course a great cost.

- "Based on what you say, it seems you are saying that you are fine with how things are, maybe not a happy ideal but that you are content. Is that so? And if it is, I wonder if you can see that it is slightly at odds with coming to a forum like this asking questions and stating so clearly that you believe the only good solution is the restoration of a marriage like the one you used to have. Somehow, those two things don’t sit easily on the same plate from over here in the cheap seats and your responses sometimes, perhaps unintentionally, can sound a bit defensive when questioned. And that’s an unusual flavour when someone feels genuinely ok with where they are at in my experience. If you’re fine with how things are - and that’s great if you are and it works for you regardless of what anyone else thinks - what do you want us to say? Or if you’re not really fine, what are you looking for that might be useful? Bc I’m a little puzzled, not judging just confused".
Treasur, I'm confused too, because I thought that this forum is exactly about that? Where do you find the disrepancy? That I am content but also want H back? That I am content but also post here and ask questions? Please clarify!
I also don't understand what you mean when you write that I sound defensive as if it is a problem. Of course I defend my opinions and try to explain why, isn't everyone supposed to do that? I didn't try to impose to anyone that I am right and they are wrong, I never wanted to insult anyone and I'm sorry for any unintentional misunderstanding!

- "If you’re fine with how things are - and that’s great if you are and it works for you regardless of what anyone else thinks - what do you want us to say? Or if you’re not really fine, what are you looking for that might be useful? Bc I’m a little puzzled, not judging just confused."
I'm confused too, because I already answered that (see post #24: August 19, 2024, 06:01:34 AM). I also do not understand why you ask me "what do you want us to say", I dont want you to say something specific and I am not looking for something specific. Isn't this forum about everyone writing their comments on other people's posts? But I surely would appreciate an answer to my previous post's question, i.e. Why not let him cake eat (sit on my couch)? To punish him? It won't make me happier, I won't get any satisfaction or value or control or anything with that. And there are worse things I could do to make him take responsibility and make his life even more troubled and difficult than it already is. The question is why?

- "I wonder how the current MO sits with your daughter.(...). What’s your best take on what she wants and needs, and how she feels about how things are done right now?"
As I wrote in my previous post, we always have conversations with D about H, I think she understands he is "sick" but because she hasn't been with him for 25 years as I, she judges him much more harshly than I do. As she is in puberty, she has other things to keep her occupied and her F is unfortunately at the bottom of her mind, but I know the wounds are there. Sometimes she is ok with seeing him, sometimes not, but we always talk about  it and she tells me if she doesn't want to see him. I don't force her to see him if you mean that.

Dragonfly33, you are of course right that I have decided what route to take!  But as I stated before, I welcome and want every opinion! To my mind at least, this is not confusing.

amazinglove, I am glad you enjoy my thread! I have also read your story and I'm sorry for what you and every one is going through. P.S. I live in Greece!