[Trustandlove]

And while I was writing I saw FTTs post -- I agree completely with what she says about YOU being there!

[amazinglove]

So I've started reading fiction again. This is a good development for me, as in the weeks and months after BD I couldn't concentrate enough to read anything, and then it was just 8 stages of a mid-life crisis, or shut out wife or lose a cheater gain a life kind of stuff. All reading that connected to my personal pain. Now i'm back to boigraphies/memoirs/spy-detective thrillers etc. I may even break out the Sedaris.
I was reading this one novel and in it, the main character, a 40-something college professor has an affair with one of his students. And of course, after one or two encounters he deeply regrets it, comes to his senses and tries to end it and go back to his loyal, loving wife, whom he really does love the whole time. He was lonely and they were not connecting and he was looking for an ego boost.
And describing how he felt the moment he realized that he had cheated on his wife for the only/first time in their 12 years of marriage and how things would never be the same, ever again, was triggering to me, because in my case, after 12 years of being faithful in our marriage, my H had an affair with a very old flame. I wonder if he laid in bed with her afterwards and thought anything like the same thing, esp knowing how seriously I take infidelity and knowing that if I found out I would almost certainly divorce him. How did that feel? did he even care?
BUT instead of like the man in the book, instead of trying to end it and return to a loyal wife, with whom he had enjoyed a loving marriage and two kids- he actually ran off with her and left me and more importantly, our kids, in the dust. It strikes me that if, we are two people who had grown apart, stopped sleeping together, stopped loving each other in 'that way' it might make sense, but we had not, and did not.
When I start to question my own judgment, I think so much of this is about him wanting to be someone other than who he is, and he is clutching at a new identity, something that only she can give him. I mean, after all I am very much a part of his old self, and every time he sees me he has to see that guy in my eyes - right? He has told me he 'hates' that guy. The honorable,unselfish, kind one I guess.
I find it interesting that while he's away with his AP (no idea where btw, I am in NC with him apart from essentials ab the kids and I am not asking him anything bc i do not want to know) he has not been in touch with a single family member in his FOO (they were close) or best friend. He has completely isolated himself with her for the past month or so. He barely texts the kids and hardly ever calls them. This is a first btw, even before when he was with her, he tried harder than this for the kids. My poor daughter is distraught. It's like he's ghosting his own child.
He texted me a few days ago about ab our son and said ' i think about him every day and hope that things get better for him at school. I'm sorry you have to deal with all these things by yourself too. I think about you too.'
I wanted to reply -that's what every woman needs in a husband and father - THOUGHTS. I wanted to reply 'your thoughts don't help me, at all' or maybe 'i don't think about you, ever.'

It was infuriating. But i left it, bc why engage with crazy right?

No matter how much I read, or attempt to detach and heal, things can bring me right back to that awful place in my head. But I'm getting better at getting out of it.

[Dragonfly33]

Amazing, I think it's the right thing to do not to reply to his text. It won't make any difference. I know how difficult it is not to get emotional when you get texts like that and to refrain yourself from reacting. I did this mistake a lot of times even two years after BD. And by the way, it's normal to be brought back in that awful place once you get reminders. After all your BD is not that long ago. Me even until now, I still get triggers and I'm already 5 years already since BD. But it does get better. Those triggers don't give me the same effect as 2 years ago. My xh has also cut off contact with our former friends, at least those I still have contact with. I don't know much about what is going on in is life as I don't have that much contact with him anymore. Once in a while, we text each other but I don't ask anymore what's new with him. So just hang in there. Keep sharing here.

[forthetrees]

Is there an emoji of a tiny violin being played?

[Treasur]

You’re doing so well, my friend, truly you are. And yes, most of us reach a stage when we feel that we have nothing useful to say in response to these kinds of messages bc those ‘thoughts’ are as much use as a chocolate teapot. And meanwhile in this new version of the life you did not choose, there are bills to be paid, kids to feed and cuddle, books to read and songs to sing. It’s not an easy situation but my word you are doing so well

[amazinglove]

I just put my 7 year old to bed who cried just before sleep saying “ I miss daddy. I miss him a lot. Why does he have to be away from us? Where exactly is he right now? How many months until I see my dad? What if it’s not until January? That’s so long!  I miss him” then he added “my dad is being a b—ch right now.”
My son is not really up to speed on the meaning of b&&&  but he knows it’s a bad word.
It broke my heart to him cry like this. I just told him his dad loves him very much and he could call his dad anytime and he can ask him when he is coming and yes his dad is being silly right now and he should be here but he does love him and he will come.
I have no idea what I’m doing. And then I see this IG video in the FB group on how sons are destroyed without their dad’s love and will grow up feeling unworthy and with ruined lives.. This is so so hard.

[FaithWalker]

I'm so sorry AL.  I know it's tough.  Despite the hard times, my boys are doing pretty great.  Of course, time will tell if there is a bigger impact yet to be seen on what happened to them as a result of the MLC, but at 19 and 24 I can say that I raised them pretty well despite our difficulties.  They were 10 and 15 at the time of BD.  I kept my focus on them and the 4 of us (S10, D13, S15) became a close knit family, weathering every storm together.  My oldest did go through a hard time, he attempted suicide shortly before he turned 18.  He realized that he didn't want to die though and drove himself to the hospital and had his stomach pumped.  It was a very hard thing for me to watch him go through.  From there he was finally able to get the help he needed, once everything was out in the open.  I don't know if my story helps you or makes you hurt worse, but what we went through has carved my boys (who are now men) to be who they are today.  I'm pretty proud of how far they've come.

[sachertorte]

I am so, sorry that your lovely kids and lovely you are going through this. I am 6.5 years in from BD and divorced for 4.5. My daughter was deeply hurt and still healing, even though now she understands she is, like all of us, meant for beautiful things. I wish to heaven none of this has happened to any of us.

On the issue of the old flame and the addition that your H is enthralled in. I came across this neuro- and psychological research last year:

Those reunited with a first or early love after years are "simultaneously bombarded with the giddy, explosive, highly sexual but ephemeral chemicals of new love coupled with the profoundly satisfying, deeply relaxing chemicals of long-term love," says Kalish. "They are able to tap all that again only with the lost lover, with whom the bond was formed."’
That makes sense to University of California at San Francisco School of Medicine psychiatrist Thomas Lewis, author of A General Theory of Love. "The adolescent brain is exposed to heightened levels of testosterone and progesterone, the steroid sex hormones involved in sexual intensity," he says. "There's also an increase in oxytocin, the same hormone that aids mother-and-child bonding following birth." Chemistry thus sets the stage for once-in-a-lifetime sexual intensity paired with a unique opportunity for attachment—creating a model of love that persists for life.

But the trouble in paradise is that, one study shows as powerfully addictive these relationships from formative years are, the chances they last are slim when either or both people were married when their paths crossed again.

I also knew of a couple who came together this way, with the man betraying his wife in middle age. The OW used to confide in me. I believed her story of his wife being terrible to him; I was too young and naive and it never occurred to me that they had every incentive to lie. FWIW, their relationship was full of distrust and discontent.

OW was a tormented, broken soul. She had very low self-esteem, being from a very sexist Asian family whose parents literally sacrificed her life to that of her brothers, forcing her to contribute the lion's share of her income so that these lazy profligates could marry. She and the man used to know each other when he worked in her country in his early twenties; their romance was thwarted by her parents due to racism and sexism.

So even though he was supposed to be reunited with the love of his life, the latter complained to me bitterly that he did not trust her with his money (smart move on his part, in retrospect, since she was always bullied into giving whatever money she had to her pathetic selfish brothers), and felt like a lot of his avowals were not backed up by action. She was becoming rapidly disillusioned, realizing they were no longer their young, innocent versions who loved without reserve and calculation. I think she was realizing that he was just as selfish towards her as he was toward the family he abandoned while claiming to love.

I knew of another guy who walked out on his wife when they were in their mid-60s for a high-school gf. He came back after four months. Implosion. Said "she doesn't look anything like she used to." I thought that was a really shabby comment. Never saw the man but can't imagine he was preserved from the ravages of time either. Some of these people are really out of touch with reality.

So you are his adult relationship, not formed in the throes of teen passion and enslaved to auto-suggest chemicals, not the escape of a dwindling consciousness from terrifying mortality, but freely chosen and sustained from mature love and self-knowledge. That he would leave your son in this lurch cannot but give the lie to any romantic relationship under the sun. It's neither mature, nor loving, nor self-knowing.

I hope your H wakes up in time. He is immensely fortunate. Take care and bless.

[amazinglove]

thank you all for those kind replies. esp Sashaforte - that meant so much to me. thank you those examples and insight was really helpful.

Ok so there have been some updates.

I had a long interaction with him on text the other night. It started bc he was asking ab my son's medication - a question i'm always willing to answer for him. and somehow I got on to the fact that he was letting down our daughter by not calling enough. at first he got very defensive ab the time differnece and so i said "set an alarm you absolute s*** of a human", oh, and "maybe don't live on the other side of the world from your children". he got defensive (shocker!) and said 'and why did I have to leave? because of you!! you made my life a misery there! i was miserable every day."

In the growth dept....this did not rattle me in the slightest, because I realized, none of it lands anymore with me. I replied 'i dont deserve any of that, but even if ok, you left because of me, that does not explain why you have been so terrible ab staying in touch with your children." he apologized and said he woudl do better. i then said pls sign those papers (i had him served on email) and he said no, and i said why not and he said 'i don't want to lose you' (this was like 2 sentences after he told me how awful I was). i said, you already lost me. he said i love you and i said "forget ab me, focus on your kids." i said "what you broke i cannot fix, i wouldn'tn know where to start' and we are over and we need to face the truth' he said 'my soul is broken'. i said well, there is help out there available for you, but i dont think you are in the right place to receive it.

I said we need to tell the kids bc they are internalizing this and blaming themselves that you are not here. So I was going to tell them and whether he signs or not, he just replied, "i love you, i loved you and i will always love you!!!!!!!!! " his exclamation marks not mine)

honestly, it just made me cry. Cry because i am not even dealing with an adult as I try to navigate what to do next. Just a giant baby. I wanted to talk to him about visitation, how to handle visits (i dont want him sleeping here in the house), when he will come so the kids can look forward to it (which IC suggested), how to tell the kids, whatever, and instead i just get this kid with hands over his ears going 'blah blah blah, i love you i love you i love you'

He called our 11 year old the next 3 days in a row. which was a big improvement from before however, it did not have the desired effect. if anything it upset her more to hear from him more. (which surprised me) AND i over heard him saying goodbye to her last night and it rattled me. they normally speak Turkish together so I can't understand it, but he was saying to her in English, (she must have just asked him again when are you comign to visit) and he said 'don't you worry about me. you worry about the things you have to do there and focus on that. i will worry about things here. In the future, i will come to you...... and you will visit me.  i don't worry about you, you know how to handle yourself, but i do worry about your brother, make sure you look after him. i believe in you, and i want you to believe in me.'

I was APPALLED. for a few reasons but what jumped out to me was 1) he is speaking to her like an adult. in fact he has used those exact words when we were in diff countries 'don't worry ab things here, just handle what's in front of you there' - she is 11 years old!! is she supposed to raise herself? and 2) is she supposed to parent her 7 year old brother on his behalf too???!!! Additionally the coldness with which he said, ' you will visit me and i will visit you' was a total brush off. it was like, why are you bothering me with these trivial details - his tone was brusque and irritated - the trivial details of when you will see your dad again. and the 'i want you to believe in me too' is his laying the foundation for his personal PR when she finds out the truth of what he's done/doing? WHY SHOULD SHE?

I realized much later that he was speaking in English because he was not alone. His AP was next to him and he wanted her to hear him. That also explains why he was so firm and resolved ab the future - the day before he had cried speaking to my daughter ab how much he missed her. Maybe he wants his AP to see how resolved he is that his future is with her? i have no idea. but she was in the room , i'd bet on it.

I tried to comfort her. I told her that it was not fair what he said. She is totally normal to want to know when he is coming and ask him and her brother is not her responsibility. she asked me 'are you going to divorce daddy?" and i said yes, I am. First time i've been that direct. And as we started to talk about it (she thought I meant like years from now at first) and she thought he would still come visit us here at home for months at a time, she was upset with me but she was mad at him. I didnt tell her ab his gf in the end. I said 'daddy has been a really bad husband. he has done things a husband shoudl not do and I have given him as much time as I can to sort himself out and he is not willing to do it. and so i have to divorce him' and she asked me 'what kinds of things did he do?" and i said (bearing in mind she's 11) 'baby, i dont want to burden more than you are already carrying baby. if you ask me anything, i will tell you the truth and i will answer anything you ask and never lie, but you are already carrying so much, I don't want to add to it.' and she just looked down and said, 'i hate my dad. he sucks.' she did not want to know and I'm glad i gave her the chance NOT to. if that makes sense.

i proimsed her that she is going to have an amazing life and i will make sure of it. we are all going to be ok.

all in all a tough weekend. did i mention I was at a trampoline park on Sat for 2 hours?

[Treasur]

Oh dear, what a chocolate teapot of a human he is at the moment. Neither use nor ornament to anyone sensible.
You are certainly not the first LBS here to be dealing with a MLC spouse who acts this way which I hope is some small comfort. Staggeringly textbook on his part though and still not about you. Glad you can see that bc it can be crazy making otherwise.

I am very sorry. That sounds like a rough old weekend.
But it sounds as if you handled it incredibly well with your daughter.

It struck me reading what you wrote that it’s a reasonable assumption that them making more contact with kids is a good thing for the kids, but that it isn’t always how it turns out. I suppose kids (naturally) want life to go back to ‘normal’ and they want their parent. What they often get is something else. And yes, not unusual at all here that an MLCer tries to ‘parentify’ one of the kids or gaslight them too. Human chocolate teapot full of Me Me Me. What seems to happen from anecdotes here is that - a bit like we LBS perhaps - kids start seeing that parent differently and they start to change their expectations and behaviour accordingly. Some kids seem to be rather good at calling BS on BS lol. But of course it hurts for a while as they do, just like us. I am so sorry. (And yes I’d bet that your instinct that ow was present hence the English is probably true….on the quacks like a duck principle. He’s no prize right now but she’s not either, is she? Fancy needing that kind of performance to be reassured that you ‘win’ over an 11 year old. As is often true, dysfunctional birds of a feather, I’m afraid)

It’s a good example of what a bunch of other LBS parents seem to have found - that your job is not to foster the relationship he has with your kids, just to not get in the way of it and to support them while they figure out the current reality of the father they have. And in a way that puts their needs absolutely first regardless of his tantrums or blah blah or sadz. Still, not easy and I’m sorry.

I suspect with time, and as your own mindset shifts, you’ll find it easier to exchange the basic info you need to and shut the text exchanges down as soon as it veers away from that. Bc your expectations of him behaving like a normal adult will change too.

Out of interest, do you have a plan B if he continues to refuse to sign the papers in that very MLCish way? (And yes it isn’t love, it’s a power play and trying to avoid predictable adult consequences) Do you have a plan for visits etc that you or your lawyer can offer like a constructive adult as opposed to waiting on him to deal with these adult things? So you/your lawyer are informing as opposed to asking.

Sometimes these MLCers, in the middle of the crazy making word salad, they do sometimes give you a window into their thinking (such as it is). And it sounds as if it is much like he said to your daughter….i’m focusing on here, so you just focus on what’s over there. Oh and I’d like you to still believe in me bc I believe that you’ll cope just fine with the mess I’ve made for you and that’s not my job, but I’d like to be able to pop back after my life ‘vacation’ and find you all ok on the porch waiting for me with bunting and a parade. He’s an idiot, of course, bc that’s not how life works, is it? But it telegraphs his current agenda and if that’s not one that works for you, probably suggests that you will need to say No to it (or more accurately DO No) rather than waiting for him to come up with a better plan. What might it look like if you offered exactly that focus? If you removed your attention completely from ‘him over there’ and just focused even more on ‘you here’ ? If you give him just what he says he wants, well, without the welcome mat on the porch bit lol? Anything that you would do differently now? Bc, jmo, one can only work with the actual cards one has in ones own hands - everything else is just background music really.

Still not about you though, is it? Bc you are not a Chocolate Teapot 😝