[lostone]

I think by now I've read everything there is to read both on this site and I'm on the facebook group (but posting there anonymously).  I really hope someone can support me I am so lost still.  Here's the breakdown:

Here's the breakdown.
Married 2012 after 4 years. Two kids 13 and 10.
October 2023: he took on more family business responsibilities and told me he was burned out (was this BD? I didn't realise it at the time)
October 2023: Started EA with woman 15 years younger
December 2023: EA turned PA, lots of escapism, I was trying to support his burnout by encouraging him to go out and follow his dreams (mostly sport) but also doing things like hill sprints on his bike late at night, jumping in rivers at midnight, going to dance parties etc.  I suspected affair pretty much immediately but didn't confront.
April 2024: daughter in health crisis, huge fight led to us deciding to work on marriage. unbeknownst to me he ended affair.
April - August 2024: I still suspected affair, he was still spending time with that social group and spending time with her although no more PA.
August 2024:  I confronted about the affair, he lied multiple times.
August 2024: "I am profoundly unhappy" (I thought for a long time this was BD but now I think the earlier (November 2023) "I am burned out" was BD?)
September 2024: he finally admitted affair, said I never made him feel seen or appreciated.
September - November 2024: trying to reconcile, MC etc. I was still treating this like an affair / affair fog situation and insisting on No Contact with AP, trust rebuilding etc.  He started unravelling and withdrawing. This really started after the kids found out about his affair.  He was crying all the time. ILYBNILWY etc.
December 2024: I drew hard boundaries and insisted on bare minimums or therapeutic separation
January 2024: moved out. Agreed 3 month trial separation but could not agree on shared outcome (eg work towards reconciliation). I started researching MLC (not just affair) and suddenly everything made sense.  Other clues: "I don't know who I am", "I don't know what my purpose in life is", "I am numb" relitigating long ago decisions (that predate us even meeting), monstering, unable to handle ANY responsibilities (any sort of house stuff is a huge trigger for him like the lawn or electricity repair stuff that needed doing) or obligations, no idea of who he is outside of roles and expectations etc.  Seeing the kids a few hours a week only.  Sleeping on floor in unfurnished apartment and being pleased that he has no stuff (it's all at the house) or people wanting things from him.
Recently: As the 3 month date approached, he started panicking again and as I went away with the kids over easter he checked into a burnout clinic. Before the burnout clinic he was leaning in again but after his time in the clinic, he's decided his "burnout" is because of our relationship and our marriage and he cannot see himself in a relationship with me again. He says he doesn't know if he loves me anymore or if he could love me again, he doesn't like who he is with me, and he had no business making a marriage vow when he was 33 because he didn't know who he was back then. Marriage vow now feels like an obligation not a choice.  Today he told me he doesn't expect me to be faithful any more after the 3 months have expired and wants me to be happy and will not rest until I'm happy but cannot be happy in a relationship with me.   Seems to me that if I meet someone else and move on that gives him a convenient "out".  Absolutely WILL NOT say he wants a divorce and when asked why not he can't say - maybe will regret it, maybe the wrong choice. But agrees that living in limbo is no good for any of us. 
Oh, also the burnout clinic apparently validated that his problems are all caused by our relationship and recommended that he should get on DATING APPS (wtf sort of advice is this?!) even after he had to confess everything that went wrong and his role in it (including the affair). He says he has no interest in that but maybe I do? (I don't).
I challenged his idea that the problem was our relationship and suggested that it relates to the way he interacts with anyone he's close to over a long period of time (he's definitely dismissive avoidant and always has been) and that it would surface in future relationships as well, he said, maybe he'll just never have another relationship again. (which seems to be more avoidance to me).

I don't know. I know that the person I married is still in there deep down, but I also know our marriage DID have problems and we had too much distance creep in between us after the kids were born.  I am still convinced this in MLC and not just marital breakdown. He used to say he didn't believe in divorce. Now he says he didn't know who he was when he said that.   Today I said I wished he would let me help him and he said he didn't think I could.  I said, maybe I'm the only person who could, but you don't want to let me close to you. He said, maybe that's the crux of the whole thing. I just don't WANT to. But still WILL NOT say he wants a divorce. I asked him if it's because he wants me to do it for him and he said no. There's no version of him that knows what he wants and is scared to do it, he just doesn't know.

[UrsaMajor]

Hi,

I am sorry that you needed to fund us but glad you did.

I have a meeting to go to in 10 minutes so this answer will be a bit brief.

1) You can NOT help him. this is HIS crisis and has NOTHING to do with your marriage, your kids, your relationship or you. It has EVERYTHING to do with his own lack of self-esteem and his lack of internal coping skills to deal with his own internal stress.
2) Conventional wisdom says the BD happens witht he ILYBINILWY speech usually but you may be right that the burn-out was  sort of mini-BD
3) His affair is a symptom of his crisis and not the cause of it. However, the AD (Affair Down) is not better or sexier or smarter or richer or anything else more than you. She was just a willing participant in his crisis and is taking advantage of an unstable person. If he chooses to reestablish the affair or moves on to another one, you can grab yourself some popcorn, pull up a chair with a Coke and watch the forthcoming trainwreck, albeit in slow-motion.
4) First and foremost is that you need to take care of yourself and your kids. Get whatever financial information that you need to and get your finances locked down as far as legally possible. Mid-Lifers can spend money like water flowing over Niagara Falls. Get any sort of legal information you need as well. You do not have to initiate proceedings if you don't want to or need to but make sure that you have whatever information that you might need.
5) OW's (Other woman) are notorious Karen's usually unless they seriously have no idea that their "knight in shining armour" is actually married already (not impossible - Mid-Lifers are REALLY good at lying) so she gets NO rent-free space in hour head to live. She is just a symptom and is not worthy of your attention or your time.

UM

[lostone]

Hi UM, thank you so much for replying.

I do know that I can't help him.  I know your point 1 is right but I vacillate all the time between thinking this is just marital breakdown and I'm deluding myself about the MLC and could just apply myself to fixing the marriage.  If the wound is relational, surely that means that the repair is relational? I know that doesn't work in MLC.

I've definitely locked down the financial situation and I've been talking to a lawyer since December. We also have a prenup. I feel financially secure and I've had good advice on this.

What I guess I really need to figure out is how to deal with this limbo and if this really is MLC or if it's just the end of my marriage. I've done the quiz and I've worked through the free course and I've read and posted in the facebook groups but he is resolute that our relationship has caused his "burnout" his word for what's happening to him and that while he cares for me and will "not rest if I'm not happy" (wtf) he "cannot" be in a relationship with me.  He's trying to tell himself that Divorce is a good outcome for the kids too and outsourcing having decisions made for him to me meeting someone else which I loathe.

[zartheit]

Hello lostone. Sorry you find yourself here.

I don't personally believe that bomb drop has much significance outside of the person receiving in. I think of it like water coming to a boil. There is a transition point that we can debate about but there is also a clear before and after.

I'm just going to quote a bunch of horse$h!te. I'm certain you know it is horse$h!te but I also think having such hurtful comments come from someone you trust and value deeply does damage. I'm hoping to give you more confidence that these are impersonal and coming from an unstable person's fear and rationalization.
"said I never made him feel seen or appreciated"
"could not agree on shared outcome (eg work towards reconciliation)"
"relitigating long ago decisions (that predate us even meeting), monstering, unable to handle ANY responsibilities"
Basically every action you've described him taking.

I also want to say that the things he says are shockingly predictable. I myself received many of the same comments. Of course, "I love you but am not in love with you" is an all time classic, but others include: "I don't know who I am", "I'm numb", "I don't like who I am with you", "you should get a boyfriend". There are a couple of older threads with more of these.

Oh, also the burnout clinic apparently validated that his problems are all caused by our relationship and recommended that he should get on DATING APPS

Why do you believe this? I don't. There are so many hinges. Did he tell them honest, accurate, and sufficient information? Did he hear their response without filtering? Did he relay their response faithfully and without manipulation to you? Do you trust someone that sleeps on the floor so they don't have to decide which couch to get will be able to shuttle such emotionally charged information to you without spilling it all over themselves?

I know that the person I married is still in there deep down

How do you know this? I don't mean to imply they are an alien, but speaking just for myself, I am not the same person I was when I was 20. That might sound trite. Who we are is emergent and that while I still care for my ex, I don't believe it was helpful for me to hold on to the hope that she was going to travel back in time and be who I remembered her to be.

Again, sorry you find yourself here. This is a tough time but you will get through this. Take care of yourself and your children and the rest will take care of itself, eventually.


EDIT:

If the wound is relational, surely that means that the repair is relational?

I agree, the repair will also be relational. You are willing to show up but he is not. The relationship pops out of the interactions between two parties. It cannot exist if one party is not breathing life into it. It is out of your hands, unfortunately.

What I guess I really need to figure out is how to deal with this limbo and if this really is MLC or if it's just the end of my marriage.

I found that rational understanding was greatly overstated. Let's imagine you have this knowledge firmly in hand. Now what? You still have the emotional turmoil and the practical day-to-day of reconfiguring your habits. With time, whether or not it is a crisis or clarity on his part won't matter much. A rose by any other name, so to speak.

I've done the quiz and I've worked through the free course and I've read and posted in the facebook groups but he is resolute that our relationship has caused his "burnout" his word for what's happening to him and that while he cares for me and will "not rest if I'm not happy" (wtf) he "cannot" be in a relationship with me.  He's trying to tell himself that Divorce is a good outcome for the kids too and outsourcing having decisions made for him to me meeting someone else which I loathe.

If you think of him like a small child instead of a fully grown adult man, it might help. He has no clue what he is talking about but the words sounds cinematic. The words sounds heroic. They don't portray a man leaving his family because of feelings inside of himself he's unable to sit with. He is spinning a fantasy because it provides escape. What is he running from? Who knows.

[lostone]

Hello zartheit, thank you for replying to me.  You are totally right it's horse$h!te.  I know it is.  I know it's not me and it's all his fear and shame and wounds talking.  But I have also taken a hard look at my role in the distance that crept between us in our marriage and I played a role too.

You're also right about the burnout clinic's stance on the role of the relationship and the dating apps etc.  Our MC has previously said to me multiple times that he's hearing whatever he wants to hear and cherry picking (other nonsense I have heard is that his mum was ok with his affair - absolutely nonsense). So it's probably something he's heard and twisted. However, he SAYS he does not want to go on dating apps and I kind of believe him because he has absolutely nothing to offer anyone and he knows it.

About who he is deep down - you're right, neither of us are the same people we were 20 years ago but my belief is that deep down we still have the same core. The same values. The same priorities in life. The same things that are important to us and the way we believe in treating people.  Marriage for me was not about signing up for both of us being the same for the next 50-60 years, it was a recognition that we were in it together THROUGH the changes that we would both inevitably go through.

I know I will get through this. I deeply believe that if we do end up divorcing, I will be fine and I'll make sure the kids are fine. And he will be miserable, lonely, broken, regretful and alone.

[KayDee]

Hello Lostone,

Sorry you are in the maelstrom of someone else's crisis. But you do sound pretty clued up and stoical. Which is great.

I know it's not me and it's all his fear and shame and wounds talking.  But I have also taken a hard look at my role in the distance that crept between us in our marriage and I played a role too.

In all relationships, friends, family included, sometimes a little distance creeps in. We are preoccupied with something or other - work, kids, illness etc. It's normal. At some point, we notice we have been a bit neglectful or the other person flags it with us, and we seek to correct it. But for some people, they see the distance as a portent of abandonment - which they have a pathological fear of. They don't bring it up directly, because they are terrified of rejection (the sibling of abandonment). I believe, much of this is subconscious, a way of being. They people please to avoid rejection. If they think they will be rejected - they reject. They start to sort of dismantle the other person in their minds (she never really got me/supported me/etc), they basically set in motion the thing they fear the most. And at the same time, they seek some building up. some ego boosts from others - this is when they are open to flattery of another who will blow smoke up their arse (and cause havoc). I personally think that this is what the re-writing of history is all about in this type of crisis. I also suspect that, yes, there can be big triggers into crisis - like bereavement, or illness, but a co-trigger is the perceived unavailability of the spouse. Of course, at the root of this, there's immaturity in how they communicate. Their coping skills are pretty poor (likely you did a lot of the big C coping in your relationship?) and they don't express their needs directly. That's why most of us here were blindsided.

You'll hear this again and again. But it is not you. Although you may reflect that you were a bit of a Fixer in the relationship, you were probably also a pretty good spouse. You likely created a safe and emotionally stable space for your husband. But when the load got too much for him, and you were a bit distracted, instead of asking for help from you, he cracked. And he won't just click back into shape alas. Someone who is emotionally fragile and un-resilient before they caused so much damage and harm to others, are not going to be able to fix things quickly. This is his journey. To mature and work out who he is and what his values really are.

(((hugs)))KD

[Treasur]

I agree with the others that, like most of us here, you were probably a pretty good spouse with the normal human imperfections. The thing to watch out for imho is getting sucked too deep into some of the BS. Most of us do for a while; tbh it’s a normal reaction to a shocking event to try to work out what caused it, what it is and how much we were part of that cause. Why do most of us do that? Imho couple of main reasons….trauma triggers a bit of our brain to think that if we can figure it out, we can fix it…or at least control it in some way. Our brains are hard-wired to do that; it is designed to help us survive by figuring out if something is a tiger in the undergrowth or just a shadow lol. The second reason is that our spouses almost always look for someone else to blame bc it’s easier psychologically than admitting to being a crappy kind of human who did some very bad things. So they tend to engage in quite a lot of deceit, gaslighting and false equivalence to justify their actions. Oh, and some sterling levels of self-pity too.

I would humbly suggest that you do everything you can to stay away from that sandpit. Or climb out when you fall in. (Bc this experience is a heartbreaking life-altering mindf**k so most of us do fall in a few times…that’s ok, just keep finding ways to climb out, it gets easier) Why? Bc it isn’t your sandpit. Bc it can make you feel like you are losing your mind. Bc probably the most important adult in your life just metaphorically burned your house down and you don’t need the extra grief of beating yourself up for once buying matches for a birthday cake.

When you are not in the sandpit, it will be easier to see that the ‘big’ question which brought you here of MLC vs marital breakdown does not matter as much as it feels like it does right now. Bc the factual effect is much the same regardless. Your h has - at a bare minimum based on what you currently know - decided that his marriage and fatherhood are no longer what scratches his existential itch. He has had an affair, lied for a long time and is barely visible as a parent. He has decided that his feelings and needs are more important than anyone else’s feelings or needs. And that he doesn’t even have to adult enough to have a plan even if that means leaving you and your kids spinning in the wind. I am so sorry, but based on those facts, regardless of the cause, you have nothing to work with currently.

So, what do you do?
You find ways to accept the facts as you see them and work from that, much as you are doing. (And kudos to you for that bc that’s no mean feat in itself)
You keep reminding yourself over and over that your h is now a proven liar and no longer worthy of your unsubstantiated trust. Which means you stop believing ANYTHING he says unless it is independently verified. What his therapy told him? Blah blah. His opinion of you? Blah blah. How he feels about anything at all? Blah blah. Whether he will actually show up on Friday to see the kids? Blah blah. Any promise or agreement or plan he commits to that involves you, your finances or your kids? Blah blah. Again it takes most of us a while to get the hang of this partly bc it’s not a normal way to interact with others, partly bc we want to believe them, partly bc we have to teach ourselves to kind of unhook our mental boat from theirs. You may find, as some here have done, that reducing the amount of conversation or interaction you have will help you to focus on the boat containing you and your kids. And tbh that’s a big enough boat to keep you busy, right?

If it is an MLC thing - and time will tell - you will probably see his behaviour become worse, more bonkers and more crazy making. You should prepare for more hidden stuff to come out…more affairs, return of OW, other weird stuff etc etc….bc that seems to be how it goes with these folks. And you should do everything you can to protect you and your kids financially bc a) see above about lying…it’s rare that these folks trash their life commitments to people who trusted them without also breaking other commitments and b) folks in an MLC can get wildly extravagant in that quest for a magic ‘new happy’. And it hardly ever seems to include the grown up stuff like bills or paperwork or saving for college funds!

Right now, I get the sense that you are torn between some reasonable anger and some concern about his wellbeing. And that’s normal too. But every moment you are thinking about him is a moment taken away from figuring out how to sail your own boat through the life storm he has created for you and your kids. You gave him a chance to approach the situation like an adult who wanted to prioritise his family…..sadly, that was not the choice he has made. And I am so sorry. Might that change? Maybe….but usually we humans are best served by dealing with the reality we have today and planning accordingly rather than an unknown future reality. What I can promise is that you will learn through trial and error what works best for you and your kids, and that there is a good life for you on the other side. And that as you learn through trial and error, you will not always feel how you feel today and that some of your window on him and what works for you will also evolve.

And that we will always be here when you need advice or just to feel heard 😜

[thissucks7788]

I'm so sorry that you're here.  I just want to re-iterate from everyone above that your MLCer can no longer be trusted. They will lie, cheat, gaslight, deceive and more.  You may find a new unpleasant thing about what they have done/are doing under every rock.  I completely understand your desire to protect your H's wellbeing. After all, we have loved these men for decades and it is a role we are used to playing. But it it so important to put yourself and your children first.  They are extremely selfish and destructive during this time.  They need to go on this journey by themselves and figure it all out. Protect your home, your finances and your heart.  Prepare to go at it alone.

I think zartheit makes an excellent point-where he says this: 
If you think of him like a small child instead of a fully grown adult man, it might help. He has no clue what he is talking about but the words sounds cinematic. The words sounds heroic. They don't portray a man leaving his family because of feelings inside of himself he's unable to sit with. He is spinning a fantasy because it provides escape. What is he running from? Who knows. 

My H made a whole delusional fantasy in his head and had it running for years while he also led a "normal" life with me.  He was chasing his "true destiny"  his "highest self"- spirit guides from beyond told him this.  They need a story to explain to themselves why they are a good person but yet are cheating/lying/leaving their spouse and kids.  So it wasn't that he was your regular ole cheating/lying H...it was so much more.  You never really know what is going on with them or what demons they are running from.   

Finally, I want to highlight what Treasur said here:
You find ways to accept the facts as you see them and work from that, much as you are doing. (And kudos to you for that bc that’s no mean feat in itself)
You keep reminding yourself over and over that your h is now a proven liar and no longer worthy of your unsubstantiated trust. Which means you stop believing ANYTHING he says unless it is independently verified.

Trust what you can verify, your intuition and yourself.  This is a long and difficult journey.

B

[Baxter1]

So sorry you’re here, your story is very familiar to all of us.
Also what type of ‘burnout clinic’ recommends dating apps? I would think any therapy would involve working on himself , working on the marriage, doing some type of healing. It’s bad enough you have to deal with MLC but him getting that advice just adds salt to the wound.
Again sorry you’re here, but you found a good place, fortunately (or unfortunately) there are many people here who can guide you through this.

[Treasur]

I re-read your posts and think I might have missed something important to you, the issue of being in limbo and your take on his thoughts about breaking that limbo.

It sounds as if right now that’s an important issue for you?

Most of us here found that limbo has three parts - emotional, mental and practical. And that it usually ends for you when you decide you are ready to end it. And each of us comes to that in our own way and timing. I don’t know why but quite a lot of us here experienced spouses who said they no longer wanted to be married to us, indeed behaved as if they were no longer married, but were also seemingly content to live in a kind of limbo for months, sometimes years.

How much do you feel in limbo right now? And about what?
How easy or difficult are you finding it?
Is there a cost or big risk to it?
What do you feel might shift you out of it? Or something that you feel you need to know bc if you did that would help?
What would be a marker of ending any limbo for you, emotional, mental and/or practical?

I ask these questions - and you’re under no obligation to answer them here - to encourage you to think less about what your h says or you think he means, and more about what your h says feel YOU need and want given the situation you find yourself in. There are no ‘right’ answers….its a very individual thing… but there probably are answers that are more ‘right’ for you than others.

The key at heart is unhooking your path forward from your h’s indecision, behaviour or wants. He may still stay lost, but you do not have to be.