[Trustandlove]

FWIW, I tell my kids that if they don't tell their dad how they feel then he won't know.  I also say that we can't control him or make him want something else.  The two seem to contradict each other....

Mine have all said how they feel, and feel he doesn't listen, so they don't say any more.  It's a catch-22.  They don't say, bottle it up, so it comes out in other ways (mostly towards me...).

I also tell them that they however they feel is OK, they don't HAVE to be angry.

Right now we have the situation that they still want him back; they know that I am standing even though I haven't put it that way to them, but that gives them perhaps more hope than is good right now. 

I have no idea what it does to the MLCer when kids express their feelings; personally I don't think it has much effect, but equally them bottling it up isn't good.  My H says "I know" when S says he wants him to come back.  Or wiggles out of it some other way.  I think it does contribute to their guilt; whether that is good for what we want or not is hard to tell.  I've been told that them feeling "healthy" guilt (the kind they feel themselves, not the kind someone else piles on them) is good, and kids just saying how they feel I think falls into the first category.

Lately I've been trying to explain to my teenage D that it is important that she say what she wants, even if it doesn't happen....  that's for her to learn for her own future relationships more than anything else. 

So I tell her that it is important that she say to her Dad if she wants to see him on his own; she can't "make" him do that, but she can learn to say what is important to her.  Otherwise she may be in danger of always just accepting what men say and do.... 

it's a fine line....

[stayed]

Zinger, I don't think whether the children speak their minds, their truths, their feelings, has any effect on the MLCer whatsoever.  It doesn't seem to send them running, or coming forward, just no effect.  My h told me, he felt that IN THE END, his children would come to understand.  That they would want HIM to be happy.  That at this time, they were too young to understand, but in time EVERYBODY would see that this was for the best. 

I would never encourage my children to "bottle" up anything, but I would warn them that if they do not get the "reaction" they are hoping for, or the understanding, to PLEASE talk to you about it.  Explain that their father is having a crisis and really not in his best state of mind. 

I think it is very important that you be HONEST with them.  I wouldn't bring up OW but if your daughters seem suspicious, please put them out of their agony.  Children often know far more then we realize and often BLAME themselves, or translate such things as this, as THEM, not being ENOUGH to make their father happy.

Please never lie to them.  TheY NEED somebody they know they can TRUST, with and about ANYTHING.

Loveisntaweakness:

William O. Roberts, certainly acknowledges that childhood/adolescent issues play a part, he seemed to focus more on the premature "death" of a friend, whom he was helping through his MLC, before his own MLC happened.  He actually lost a couple of very close friends, by freaky accidents, who both happened to be in crisis. 

His primary theory, seemed to be based on "second" guessing, if he had made the right choices, in most everything.  Profession, wife, life in general.  iIf he had chosen the correct route, then why wasn't he HAPPY?   He very much STRESSES that the crisis is INTERNAL, although like all MLC'ers, he blamed it on everybody BUT himself.  This gentleman though, got himself into counseling, studied and partook different types of therapies and religious retreats.  He honestly didn't seem to just let himself fall into MLC. 

That being said, it STILL took him a long time to complete his journey.  He had just turned 40ish (threshold he says... to me that is just 40), when his crisis began, he calls it a transition.  He wrote this book in his 50's, somewhere in there, he came out of it.  He totally acknowledges that his wife took the brunt of his MLC.  He does not go into her part at all, due to the strict area that the publishing company wished this book to work within.  Must say, I would love to read his wife Melissa's story.

His main goal in writing this book is to emphasize that the male midlife passage is an incredible opportunity for growth that needs a rite of passage to support it.  He is aware that men, do not have many outlets or safe places to work through this stage in their lives.  (Wives, are never a good outlet, as we are not men for one thing, but we are just too close to the MLCer).

I like this book because his objective is very similar to this forum's.  He wants to support and encourage MEN to take their journey and let it lead them  to a happier, more content life. 

[HeartsBlessing]

LIW,

Unless I'm wrong, RCR's, Stayed's and HB's Hs in the end didn't make major situational changes, rather they made internal changes.  ??

Actually, my husband made a combination of external, and internal changes; he changed jobs once during his initial MLC; and he changed jobs twice during his secondary bout.   The first time, he wanted a complete change in his employment; he was dissatisfied; this was one of his issues; and part of his Identity crisis...and apparently during the secondary bout, he was still not satisfied; because he changed employment twice that time; and he's actually settled in where he is, now...when he broke his ankle last year, after he healed, he returned to that same place he was employed at, in spite of the fact they broke his lease while he was down.

Also, as part of his Identity crisis; he had to settle the issue of either being married or not married; and he opted for continuing to be married, because there were still feelings within him for me; and in his words, he couldn't stand the thought of not having me in his life if he walked away.    I think somewhere within him, he knew if he walked; for him, there would have been no going back; and he would have left me completely alone; and never returned, had he done that.   Pride has a way of working on some men that way; and he's no exception.

To be quite honest, he THINKS he needs me, when he really doesn't...I don't know the depth of his need, but it's there; and I don't think he'll ever get past that.   I was and am what he knows and loves; and to some extent, it's the same for me; he's what I know and love.

Another external change was the fact that he quit smoking, took up dipping Skoal, AND was diagnosed with Diabetes during that secondary bout...it took him two years to accept the disease.
He started doing different things than before; external change again; as for example, he became a fan of Nascar; he watches different kinds of shows on Television than before, eats differently, as in liking things he hated before his crisis. 

He started shaving his head, I told him he looked like a neo nazi skinhead biker, LOL, but he kept the goatee'.  His mode of dress involves T-Shirts and jeans; although, for awhile, I saw him wear sandals..this was different; but eventually, he went back to tennis shoes.

He became the responsible person I once knew; but he's even MORE responsible than before; he doesn't waste his money; he's very saving..this was the opposite of before.  Oh, and he was affectionate before; but he's even MORE affectionate now; and it is evident that he cares about son; making an effort to get together with him to spend time with him...but this is at Son's convenience; and I see my husband willing to inconvenience himself at times; whereas he didn't before.

In regards to situational changes; no; he didn't run completely away; although he'd raised the issue of wanting to sell out and move somewhere else several times, I made it quite clear that I didn't wish to move; but if he wanted to move, he was welcome to knock himself out; he still had to learn to be content where ever he is.

Some things didn't change; but there was a whole lot more that did.  For example, he's still a neat freak; and that's an aspect of controlling; but his truck is his truck; and you could eat off the floors in it; yet, he also helps me by doing various things here at home; like I came home not long ago, and he'd washed out the refrigerator; or he'd sort some things and clean out a closet.  Or I would find the floor mopped, bathrooms completely cleaned; things like that.

I do my parts, too; so he does some, and I do some; I remember him saying that I worked as hard as he did; so he was pitching in.  He will cook on occasion; and he didn't do that before.   
He still washes his own clothes, and I do mine.  One of us will pitch a load in washer, dry it and put it away.


I see a more peaceful, and settled man; who views me as his friend, his companion; his helper, his lover, and his wife.  We are in this together; and he's said this quite a few times.

Emotionally, he's more open, more apt to speak up when he doesn't like something; and he really tries to be a husband to me; not just my boss; and he doesn't try to "lord" it over me.  We agree to disagree when we need to; and this didn't happen before, as before, it was his way or the highway.

So, I would say, there were a combination of external and internal changes that contributed to what he became; but he was the one with these decisions...except the ones that affected me personally, and required my input.

There came a time when I realized that I could not indulge his restlessness; and it took me as the anchor to hold him firm; that's why I refused to move, just because he said he wanted to; I was told this would pass, and it did.  I saw later that if I'd given in once; the trend would have continued; and he would have never been satisfied. 

In time, he realized, as I stood my ground with him, that home was whatever I was; just as home for me, is where ever he is; but you gotta live somewhere; and the economy where we live is not bad; and it's a nice quiet place out in the country.

In many ways, however, there are MORE internal, than external changes that occurred within; and you want the internal changes to happen; this is where the core of them resides; although the core person won't change; other aspects will change; assuming they allow the crisis to work on them.

My husband, as a result of his Identity crisis; had to find his "place" in not only this world, but within himself, his job, his life and his family; and be settled with how his life was, as a whole, and would be in the future.  That included me; but it could have so easily NOT included me; he could have chosen to walk away and start over again; and there was a time when I actually thought he was going to do that, but he didn't...he chose to stay with me...and I chose to stay with him.

As he repackaged himself; he became someone he was more comfortable with; and someone I have no trouble living with.   He became a giving, caring person; and I know where I stand with him; as his number one priority...I was never that before the crisis.

They do become different people in many aspects; they are never the same once the whole of the crisis is navigated...and adjustments are made on both parts, because NEITHER MLC'er or LBS are the same people they were before the crisis happened..both should have grown and changed, and become more mature adults, better able to handle what life throws at them.

We don't always get it right; and we don't always agree; but we agree to stick together; and face the world as team players; equal on all counts...and this wasn't true before the crisis happened.

The reality of our lives now is such a different and better one.
 

[stayed]

My husband also changed "jobs" during his crisis.  He left the military and took his present job.  While in the peak of his MLC with OW, he often talked of leaving this job and they (h & OW) going into business together for themselves.  He sounded like he wanted to sever all "ties" with his past. 

Like HB said, the changes initially were internal, then went external and steadily more and more extreme, both internally and externally.  In the end, he did not leave his present job, obviously, he did not go into private enterprise with OW.  He did not sever all connection to siblings, old friends, children or me... but he came bloody close. 

Reading a really interesting part about the OW.  He says when talking to Other MLC'ers, the other woman was not about sex.  We all seem to have figured that out, not a surprise to any of us.  The attraction definitely is, that our men THINK these women are LISTENING to them.  They feel they are baring their souls to these women and these women listen and validate and make them FEEL WHOLE, again. 

No wonder they are so defensive of these OW in their lives.  In their minds, these women "set them free", "saved them" from themselves.  That also explains why we WIVES are so jealous and resentful of these women, in our minds, they were able to reach our spouses in way that we could not, were not even allowed to try to.

Perhaps rather then thinking of these women as "Marriage Wreckers", we should consider them as intermediary, marriage builders.  While our spouses are laying out their soul's at these women's feet, talking down about us, they are also revealing much about themselves.  Imagine being able to talk nonsense, with somebody who had no expectations from you, other then the hope that you would choose to stay with them.  Every word out of your mouth is listened to attentively, almost sacredly.   Actions are viewed with total approval, almost adoration.  No wrong can be done.  What a high! 

I'm not sure how this contributes to the whole scheme of things, but in spite of the adoration, hero worship these OW lavish on our spouses, they are seldom able to HOLD ONTO our men.  In many ways, our h's having expelled their inner thoughts, returned feeling "refreshed", "cleansed", albeit, with guilt, but getting rid of all that "stuff", left room for them to take on NEW stuff.  Hopefully, stuff that will enable them to share their lives with us again.   

OOOOOOOOOOO this book does titillate the "gray cells"... mmmmmmm!  Food for thought.

hugs Stayed...

[stayed]

A quote from this book, Crossing the Soul's River.  To me, this speaks to both MLCer and LBS'er.

Who do we see in our mirror?  Do we have the courage to examine ourselves with our own questions and our own untapped capacities, to probe deeply enough at our own reflection so that we see not some mere reflection of the persona we have cultivated in the first half of life, but our own self peering back at us?  What a challenge to look behind  the mask, to greet the true self underneath it all!.

WE spend so much time looking at our spouse.  Analyzing every move, every action.  We spend almost as much time examining the attraction of the OW/OM.  How much time, do we spend examining ourselves, daringly, openly, honestly?  Not in respect to our spouse, our children, even our family.... ONLY about ourselves, in respect to ourselves.  Compare ourselves to ourselves. 

I think that is what our MLCer is doing.  Comparing him/herself to him/herself, of course finding themselves falling short of their own expectations.  I'm not sure they are blaming us, as much as we think they are.  Like any good experiment, you RULE OUT, the obvious first.  Things get much more complicated at that point. 

The more I learn about this crisis, the more I KNOW, the only way through this is to LET GO, let go of it all.  Focus the journey on YOURSELF. We didn't ask for it but we are stuck with it, why not take advantage of it? 

HUGS Stayed

[StandandDeliver]

LIW -

Much easier to think someone else is the problem

.

They don't just think someone else is the problem, they cycle between who is the problem, but never land on themselves.

I heard that it was his job, then I heard that it was his father, then me, then his mother, then he started semi-blaming our six year old! "He had never made decisions on his own, he had never followed his own happiness, no-one wanted him to be happy" Of course MOST of the blame is placed on the LBS, because we were the most significant other adult in their lives (besides themselves - the common denominator they never seem to look at is themselves).

Of course the greatest irony of all is that NOONE in their life has ever been as controlling as the OP and they just don't see it. 

[stayed]

Of course the greatest irony of all is that NOONE in their life has ever been as controlling as the OP and they just don't see it.   

Now, isn't that the truth?  I wonder why that is? 

hugs Stayed

[HeartsBlessing]

Quote

    Of course the greatest irony of all is that NOONE in their life has ever been as controlling as the OP and they just don't see it.   


Now, isn't that the truth?  I wonder why that is?

Simply because the OP the MLC'er chooses is JUST LIKE THEM.

Opposites attract,  just alike will repel in a "normal" situation; but during MLC; just alike DOESN'T repel; it's the OPPOSITE of what should happen; during their affair, the OP and the MLC'er are in the same boat emotionally; they are controlling, using, and out to get what each want from the other; without regard for what the other feels; and the MLC'er isn't feeling much of anything; so, that's acceptable, at least for a time.

Food for thought.

[stayed]

Very good food for thought... must say, that never ever occurred to me.  Makes sense in the same weird way that MLCer's think.  Whatever is opposite to what your MLCer would want or do before their crisis... then for sure they will do it. 

No wonder the LBS is always caught off guard, it's impossible to think that MESSED UP!

Thanks HB... I get it now, it's all clear.

Hugs Stayed...

[StandandDeliver]

Opposites attract,  just alike will repel in a "normal" situation; but during MLC; just alike DOESN'T repel; it's the OPPOSITE of what should happen

HB - just to clarify, does that mean the MLCer is attracted to alike people, as in like what they are in MLC, or like what they were before? I assume you mean the former?