[Dontgiveup]

From the Doormat article:
We live in a divorce-happy society. No matter what there will be people who think that merely through the act of Standing or wanting your cheating spouse home you are on the doormat. For better or for worse has no real meaning to many people--including people who say it in their vows; they apply their values to you and if you don't follow their values and belief systems there is something wrong with you; you must be weak. Why would you want someone who mistreats you? They don't understand that you do not want the mistreating Monster. Why would you believe he will change then? If the Monster is a new MLC personality, you have good reason to believe the Monster is not permanent.

[stayed]

This is a great discussion Zinger.  Thanks for putting up there.  Every single one of you have given me food for thought.  Aspects I had never considered before, I find myself pondering. 

That comment loveisntweakness, about what we do, does matter, interesting comment from your husband, because honestly, it really is hard to see whatever we do has any effect whatsoever.  I get the idea of "paving the way" but something about saying it, makes me uncomfortable.  As quite often, what I more often then not see, is some major "sucking up"!  I honestly understand that people feel what they feel, but "validating" some of those feelings, in the name of "paving the way".... makes my stomach turn.   

I agree with Dr. Phil, unless we are divorcing to protect ourselves financially from ruin, then let the MLCer/cheater earn his / her own way out of the marriage.  Let him / her pay for the divorce, heck why should it cost me a cent, I didn't want a divorce.   

I can also see what Zinger is saying, if the MLCer wants to be free, then let him be free... totally free.  I think whether you divorce or not, one still has to go through this process.  I think we mistaken moving on as, finding a new partner.  I don't think I would have been finding myself a "new partner" for a long, long time... whether he divorced me or not.  Look at Dontgiveup, he's divorced, he's still working on himself and he isn't even interested in looking at other possible partners.  Maybe he's the exception!!!

I guess, it really doesn't matter.  As long as you are doing it for the right reasons and not to GET THE ATTENTION of your MLC spouse.   

hugs Stayed...

[zinger]

Great feedback.  Thank you all for sharing your thoughts--hearing all of these different viewpoints is really, really helpful.

LIW--it is helpful to hear what your H has said in terms of how your actions impacted him.  Perhaps that is a good topic for another discussion thread.  We could entitle it, "Straight from the Monster's Mouth"    Also, i get what you are saying about forcing the LBSer to continue to journey, even if we feel like we have already completed a marathon--there is always more to learn, always more to grow.

S&D--I agree with your point about divorce freeing up the MLCer to marry the OW sooner than they otherwise could.  That also would bring the kids into it sooner and that alone is a good reason to hold off the D for as long as possible (particularly with young kids like mine).

Stayed--what can I say, you are the ultimate diplomat and i so appreciate your support and understanding--thank you

Thanks again to all for engaging in this discussion with me.  It really is so helpful to hear so many different views and I agree that there is no right answer, just right for each of us. 

[LisaLives]

LIW--you raise the issue of boundaries and mistakes and forgiveness.  I struggle with all of those in this whole ridiculous ride.  I have actually read everything I can on polyamory wondering if I were open minded enough to go there--if that would be the answer, could we all live happily as a big extended family, is that the answer?  Isn’t it possible that we are all just not open to love enough and that is our whole problem?  What is absolutely required in a marriage thereby its absence is unforgivable, what is forgivable and what is really not important?  Sexual fidelity, honesty, financial stability, love, compassion…

I don't even know the answers for myself when it come to a romantic R.  But I think my kids know there is a difference between any mistakes they will ever make and what their dad has done.  We have even talked about what would happen if they find themselves in the position their dad is in--what would I do, and they know the answer.  I will never be proud, but no matter what they do, they will always be my kids and I will always love them and forgive them, but I will also always stand by that woman and their kids, too and they better know that.  And there are no other mistakes they could make that have to do with loyalty—even if they denounce me, I would still love them from afar, just as I love their Dad and I would forgive them if they came back, as I would probably forgive their Dad, if he ever were to come back. 

I think the difference is their dad walked away from a family.  When you have kids, it is not just leaving a R, you leave a FAMILY and all it stood for—for another woman, the mother of some other kids.  It's a loyalty issue.  We talked about this the other day, that I would die for them with no hesitation and there was a time I would die for H, knowing that he would take care of what mattered most to me, our kids.  I can’t say that anymore.  And for me, that’s the biggest FEAR, knowing that there is no one else in the world I trust to put my kids first if anything ever happens to me.  And they feel that, one even said to me at one point “I understand if he couldn’t choose you, but I always thought he would choose us (meaning he and his brother), but he chose her over us.” 
 
And that’s a mistake I can’t afford to make. I can’t choose anyone over my kids.  Not now, after what he has put them through, not even H if his needs are so great that they would negatively impact our kids.  That’s the part that scares me about any possible R process.  He would have to come back to me whole and in a position to nurse his kids back to emotional health, I do not have what it takes right now ot take him back broken and try to rehabilitate him and our two kids—someone would lose in that deal and I fear it would be me.  Does that make sense? 

[Dontgiveup]

Stayed......that was very kind of you to say.  I don't know if I'm an exception, I just believe that my ex-wife and I have a foundation that would be hard to match with another partner.  And, since my ex-wife has been a Boomeranger (even post-divorce), that would be difficult to explain to a dating partner since her and I are in fairly frequent contact.

I can see where you are coming from regarding Paving the Way....and how it could be viewed as "sucking up".  Where I see the difference is that "sucking up" sounds active, possibly even pursuing.  I think Paving the Way is more about simply keeping a respectable connection in place so that when the MLCer has progressed through the tunnel, they can become the pursuer again.

Paving the Way can be as simple as responding vs reacting.  Paving the Way is related to the Unconditionals since the MLCer will test for the LBS forgiveness.

Here's part of one of RCR's blogs that gives some insight:
He left, he cheated, he blamed you for everything that is wrong, he spewed Monster yuck at you…it is normal to think that you will not want to reconcile. He doesn’t believe you. He tests you with more spew and the alienator relationship continues. It will take 1-3 years of your consistent Standing for him to believe in it. This is Paving the Way.

[stayed]

I'm a little concerned Lisalives, that you are perhaps taking your role as a mother a bit too seriously.  Yes, I agree our children must come first, no argument.  That being said, I have found that children understand much more then we give them credit for. 

Most of the parents in here have managed to teach their children about MLC, depression and problems like this.  They use this as an example to teach their children that and OATH IS AN OATH, even if ONE party violates that oath, that does not negate your sacred OATH. 

By standing and bettering ourselves, hopefully our MLC spouse is working their way through their issues as well, we are showing our children that adults do not simply walk away, when the going gets tough.  We live in a world which often comes across as heartless, disrespectful, greedy, selfish and no moral values.  We can change that belief, simply by honouring the vow we took to our spouse. 

It may not work out, the spouse may never return, you may still end up divorced but you have shown your children that marriage is not something ANYONE should take lightly.  That marriage is a sacred union, that must not be put assunder, without very good cause. 

I don't think there is any greater lesson one can teach their children.  This is not a case of your children vs. your husband.   This is about you and your h.  These situations have lasting consequences to our children, if you and your h were to reconcile and were able to build a marvelous new marriage (because the old marriage is dead... it is gone, forever), that could change the whole outcome of everyone future.  Instead of the children, talking about when their dad walked out on them, they would talk about how dad had a crisis.  Left them all for a while.  Mom never lost faith and hope in dad.  When dad came back, she led them into a wonderful new marriage. 

The lesson for your son's would be, NEVER GIVE UP HOPE!  ANYTHING can be done, if two people love enough and are willing to do the work. 

Nothing is ever cut and dried lisalives.  We can direct our children's attitudes.  Instead of letting a comment go by like that one about choosing OW over us... you could easily have said... "and that shows you, how HORRIBLE mid life crisis is!  Would you EVER have believed your father could do such a thing? Never, me either.  When he comes out of this, he is going to need us.  We must get strong."  We have far more control then we give ourselves credit and our children are far more reasonable and intelligent too. Don't sell any of you short.

hugs Stayed...

[stayed]

Where I see the difference is that "sucking up" sounds active, possibly even pursuing.  I think Paving the Way is more about simply keeping a respectable connection in place so that when the MLCer has progressed through the tunnel, they can become the pursuer again.

I think your idea of Paving the Way is right on the money Dontgiveup.  I am afraid, the way that many are using it here, is much more like my idea of "sucking up", which I totally agree, is pursing, which is probably why whenever people mention it, I feel my stomach turn.  I like the idea of it being a "respectful connection", yes that is much better. 

I think you need to post this on pretty much every thread that uses the term PAVING THE WAY... cause honestly, most of the time all I am seeing is "sucking up", ahhhhhhhhhhh pursuing. 

Thanks that was really helpful. 

hugs Stayed

[HeartsBlessing]

Let me make something crystal clear in regards to BOUNDARIES..

Boundaries are for YOU; NOT the person you set them on; a boundary will NOT make a person stop their behavior toward you; in fact, a boundary won't "make" another do anything they don't choose to do.

When you set a boundary, you've decided what you will and won't accept within a person in the way of behavior, or otherwise; the person the boundary is set on, has TWO choices: either accept the boundary and change their behavior/way of relating to the person who set the boundary, OR walk away/continue to behavior, no matter what.

It is up to YOU to enforce the boundary with a consequence, but that consequence needs to be something you can live with; and carry out....

For example, I drew the line set a boundary on my husband's disrespectful way of talking to me; I told him to stop, or I would leave the room....now, notice, I didn't tell him I would ask him to leave or anything harsher; I simply stated that I would leave the room; and I did, on MORE than one occasion; and when he followed me; I restated my boundary and removed myself again from his presence.

Basically, I was letting him know that I did not wish to be around him; if he could not be respectful to me...but I did NOT "make" him do anything; I only took care of myself, and enforced my boundary.

There were various aspects of disrespect that I had to keep chipping at within him; as I set boundaries on one aspect, then another.

He could have left at any time, the door was open; he already knew that he could leave; but he didn't; after testing my limit/boundary several times to make sure I did mean business, I saw him start to change.

Now, those of you that say you don't have to endure or put up with any kind of abuse; are being truthful; but I endured a great deal of abuse; staying married, at least on my end; and from my experience; without some pain of some kind, there is NO gain of any kind; if you're that insistent that you'll not put with up with ANY kind of pain out of this crisis, you'll get what you want; you'll get left alone, completely; but, again, based on my own experience, you must stay within conflict in order to grow in another aspect of this crisis.

And, I knew these things; say what you want; but I was willing to do WHATEVER it took to stay with my husband; and bring my marriage through, navigating it to safer waters; and almost single handedly, I accomplished that; with the help of the Lord.

Yet, at the same time, I was journeying toward a better person; growing for the future; and changing for a lifetime.

It takes a LOT of strength to deal; and keep dealing; even as the garbage falls around you; and I saw alot of garbage fly all during that time.

Through these areas of conflict, I learned to set healthy boundaries; and set the consequences for ME; knowing that my boundaries didn't have anything to do with him, and everything to do with me, and what I would and would NOT accept out of him in the way of behavior and otherwise.

It was, at times, a very painful process, and I wanted, many times, to just call a halt, and just quit; but it's not in me to quit; so I kept going; and went right on through; because there's NO short cuts in that area; only going through.

There IS a point in time, where you are going to have to deal with something or many things, that you would not want to deal with; in the way of behavior, as in teaching the MLC spouse at a later time in reconciliation what is acceptable behavior toward you; and having them FIGHT you, because they want the OLD; and are willing to literally get in your face about it; and all the boundaries in the world did NOT make my husband back down; but then, neither did I.

There were times when I had to back off and regroup; then go right back into the conflict; this was NOT about being right or wrong; this was about being treated good or well; and I decided at one point if he couldn't do it, he was free to leave; and that was also made clear to him at that time.  I didn't threaten him with anything; I just let him know how I stood. And left the room again.

You don't get through all of this without some misery and suffering that will come from the MLC spouse before it's all said and done.

I don't wish to start up a debate on this; I just know what I know from my own experience; and I don't feel "entitled" nor even "expect" people, not even my husband to treat me what's considered right; but neither will I allow people to walk on me, either; walking away when I know I need to.

There is NO easy way to navigate this crisis; and there is NO easy way to the end; and no one, ever, gets everything they want; and this is also something that is learned during the crisis...even the MLC'er learns this; or is supposed to.

[truth_seeker]

And in some ways, I think it contributes to the feeling that you need to work on yourself.  I don't totally buy that.

I am not perfect, and sure we had issues in our marriage, but the key is I was always willing to work on them.  I was not the person he says he needed, but he was not always the person I needed.  In a mature relationship we would have honored the commitment and worked around those things, but he bailed.  No one can meet everyone's needs, so all R's are constant negotiations, whether it's romantic, family, or just friends, we all give and take and maintain some kind of balance.  But he bailed. 

There are lots of things I could work on, but I was never not okay with the person I saw in the mirror (and I don't mean an actual mirror, cause let's not get into body image issues... ;-)).  I am a good person, and I was a good wife.  And I truly believe that when I look at the fact that I have five years left with my boys, I have to think very carefully about what I do with the examples I am going to give them in the most important years of their life.  And I agree that if I knew that H were going to come out of this okay, standing and being strong and true would be perfect.  But there are no guarantees and having them watch him treat me like s$%^ and in the end still walk back to OW, would be far worse.  The medium, of divorce and watching me rebuild a positive life without him is the safest option for my kids—it is the only one I CONTROL.

And that is where I wonder, is divorce sometimes the best answer for reducing collateral damage—especially the kids?

Working on yourself is not an admission of guilt or fault on your part for your H's behavior and MLC.  It is an opportunity for the LBS to gain a different perspective on themselves, grow and heal in whatever way possible for them.  None of us are PERFECT.  There must be something that you have wanted to do, try, experience or learn while in your M and being a Mom.  It is an "opportunity" for YOU not anyone else.  I know it's difficult to look within ourselves especially when this wasn't planned and instead thrust upon us without our approval.  But why waste the time you have now in focusing on your H, or worse yet the OW instead of on YOU!  Meet YOUR needs. 

Your H and OW are the ones who should be ashamed of themselves and hide not YOU.  Hold your head up high and to hell with what everyone else thinks.  I too live in a very small town and I NEVER cared or hid from the people in the community because I did NOTHING wrong.  Besides everyone knows what they did and are up to.  It eventually works it's way out without your needing to do a thing.  Trust me on this.  I know exactly how you feel. 

Forget the idea that Standing is about your H coming back.  Standing is for YOU.  Take Your time, make decisions which are best for YOU & your kids. Learn something new, take up a hobby if you don't already have one, go out and explore new things and you'd be surprised what opens up to YOU.  Take MLC out of the equation for a moment. For example: Ask yourself if there is something you've always wanted to do which would be of benefit but didn't? It doesn't have to be outrageous but something simple. 

The kids have already been hurt by your H's actions so damage has already been done but getting a D or Not doesn't change this.  But your actions in how you handle yourself during this time will be noticed by them as you know.  Actions do speak louder than words.  Standing doesn't mean allowing our H/W's to treat us like $hit or being a doormat. That's what boundaries are for.  Our children learn from us and needs to be re-enforced. Both good or bad they learn no matter the age.  You said you have 5 years left with your boys but you know that's not necessarily true.  Maybe living with you yes but not in your life. 

Something I ask myself often which helps me clarify in my decisions during this time is "What example do I want to be for my kids as well as for myself?"

You're doing great and keep going.  Try not to get sucked back into the drama and lose focus of You.  Yes, it sounds selfish but it's not by our choice but it's necessary to move forward.

Sorry for the long post.  And yes, I'm new to this and still a rookie but what choice do we have really? I'm not much of a gambler so I'd rather bet on me and my kids any day.  Much better odds.   

((Hugs))

TS

[truth_seeker]

from: loveisntweakness
I would say that there are ways to show your H that you do not approve of his behavior without Ding him.  My H knows.  I have never told him I would take him back regardless.

Agree!  I too have never told my H I'd take him back regardless but I have held him accountable when he's gone too far. If that's pressure quite honestly I don't care.  There are just some things I won't let slide.  My kids being top priority. I don't ask too much of him and have given him his freedom and space.  TBH much of it is for our benefit as much for H.