[truth_seeker]

In the words of Dr. Myles Munroe "The Greek meaning of the word Divorce is to Defect". (Thanks Buggy for pointing me in his direction)

The dictionary meaning for defect is:  to desert a cause, especially in order to adopt another.
So if you are ready to defect from your marriage then get the D otherwise continue to stand until you are in a much better place within yourself to base your decisions.  D or Not it shouldn't stop you from progressing on YOUR journey.  Why rush if you don't have to?

[StandandDeliver]

truthseeker, if you felt that i was implying that high earning LBS's were not victims of MLC then I must have worded what I was saying quite badly, I am sorry. I was not omplying that women could not be a high earning spouses (I didn't even refer to gender, I used the term spouse) and if the MLCer was not the high earner  and the LBS was, then I am not suggesting  for a second it is less painful or that they deserved to be abandoned. MLC sucks for all LBS's I know - it is not like the pain of rejection knows gender or economic status etc.
 And I am most certainly not making any statements about women (or men) not being good parents because they are working! But in many of the situations I have encountered on here, unfortunately, LBS's have been left with the children and with years out of the workplace, or with lower earning potential and in those situations where the MLCer feels he does not "owe anyone anything", the financial and stress repurcussions are huge on top of all the other MLC crap.

So maybe that is a generalisation, and I appreciate that situations are all different. Unfortunately legislation rarely works on the basis of vast difference. Legal systems are based on normative generalisations. I am completely unprotected financially (the price I pay for naivity, trust and following H to a country where he is required to pay me NO alimony, I guess) - fortunately I have good qualifications and will hopefully get a job and some money coming in soon and be a working mum too - but the stress of trying to find a job, on top of being abandoned with the small kids and having threats made about savings and housing etc - it may not be more painful, but it certainly adds a dimension of stress. In my own situation, my H wanted me at home while the kids were young, until MLC hit and then I was a burden.

[StandandDeliver]

I guess what i am saying is that I disagree with legal systems that do not protect people who have been abandoned. In your case I would argue that your spouse should not be able to claim financial support because he chose to commit adultery and abandon the marriage. In my situation, my H should be forced to pay alimony as compensation for at least as long as it takes for me to have a standard of living that reflects something similar to the one that we built together, because HE chose to commit adultery and leave.

I was throwing it out there as a topic of discussion more than anything else - i know that these issues should be looked at from all the angles and I am happy to say that I probably have thought about things with an element of bias relating to my own particular circumstances. I am not judging anyone with regards to gender, social or economic status....

[StandandDeliver]

Last post on the topic - I thought that i had written in my original post  that I meant IF the high earner was the MLCer abandoning the family, I guess I forgot to type that bit (it was in my head) I guess I should stop posting so late at night...

[truth_seeker]

So maybe that is a generalisation, and I appreciate that situations are all different. Unfortunately legislation rarely works on the basis of vast difference. Legal systems are based on normative generalisations. I am completely unprotected financially (the price I pay for naivete, trust and following H to a country where he is required to pay me NO alimony, I guess) - fortunately I have good qualifications and will hopefully get a job and some money coming in soon and be a working mum too - but the stress of trying to find a job, on top of being abandoned with the small kids and having threats made about savings and housing etc - it may not be more painful, but it certainly adds a dimension of stress. In my own situation, my H wanted me at home while the kids were young, until MLC hit and then I was a burden.

S&D
Thank you and there's no need for an apology.  You bring up very good points and believe me I know how you feel.  If you will notice in my previous response I said I "was" the high earning spouse" and primary breadwinner.  My sitch now is very similar to yours in that I naively chose to believe my H, gave up my job, relocate to a new state and surroundings where I knew no one but H's family.  I did this because I thought we would have a better life with less stress.  Little did I know I too would be abandoned with the kids, have no support, had to pull my 401K to live on, fight H for some support, and all the other issues you mentioned.  So yes, I understand your pain all to well as I too wonder what I will do next financially or otherwise.  It's all in my thread if you're interested.  But all that being said I still do not wish to add further legislation which will be based on generalities. 

Yes, I agree it should be difficult under certain circumstances to get a D, given length of marriage, children, etc.  If anything maybe make it difficult for the "predator" whose come into the marriage and hold them accountable as much as the "WAS".  Maybe they'll think twice before having a hand in destroying a family. Probably not going to happen.  Now wouldn't that be interesting.   Just saying. 

But the real point I was making is if we begin to lose focus on the real problem which is MLC then we get nowhere. 

BTW:  I didn't feel judged.  IMO this is a healthy topic of discussion and one which is often shied away from. 

[StandandDeliver]

truthseeker - off to read your thread now. I felt I needed to clarify, because my orginal post was badly written and did not really reflect the way I think about the topic. You are right that the focus should stay on MLC, as much as I would give up money, earning power, status (maybe even gender ) to be in a sitch where I had never heard the following words: mid-life crisis, alienator, affair, abandonment, OW, OM, LBS etc.......

[stayed]

I guess what i am saying is that I disagree with legal systems that do not protect people who have been abandoned. In your case I would argue that your spouse should not be able to claim financial support because he chose to commit adultery and abandon the marriage. In my situation, my H should be forced to pay alimony as compensation for at least as long as it takes for me to have a standard of living that reflects something similar to the one that we built together, because HE chose to commit adultery and leave.

I completely agree with you about this S&D. 

Just read your comments truth_seeker.  Interesting idea.  I don't give a tinkers doo doo about the OP but, I'd quite happily accept any financial contribution from him/her, for being stupid enough to get mixed up with a married person.  No problem with that, in the least, hehehe.

We obviously need some LBS Judges! 

hugs Stayed

hugs Stayed...

[LisaLives]

I have wanted to come back to this for some time.  I printed it so I could really think about it completely.  There is a lot here, but a lot that I don't know how to process.  So, breaking it into chunks:

HB wrote:
Truthseeker hit the nail on the head with her reply; and you need to separate your personal feelings from what your husband is doing, LisaLives.

You're taking it personally, internalizing; and it has NOTHING do with you; and everything to do with him; if it hadn't been you, it would have been someone else.

What he is doing is NOT a reflection on you, or the example you may choose to set for your children.

And I ask:
I agree that what he is doing is not a reflection of me, but how I CHOOSE to react to it is the only thing I control.  How are/were you SO CERTAIN your H would come out of it.  I am not--so many people here believe they can be the lighthouse, but I believe I actually drove my H away...  I loved him totally and completely, but how do I know he is not one who will be lost to the fog forever?  In hindsight, he has never shown me any strength.  I have been the one for the last 20 years that has bent and adapted to everything, and believe me, that was painful and difficult.  I truly believe that my growth is what caused the death of our marriage.  But my growth was also what saved my son's life, so there is no way I would give that back...  Several weeks ago, when discussing part of our cancer journey, my other S14 asked me "when you were doing all this, what was Dad doing?"  And I tried to be as diplomatic as possible and told him that Dad was always with me and we were a team, and he said, "well the way I saw it, dad was taking care of his parents, and you know having them around is like having two more kids..."  Well I nearly drove off the road, that he knew something about my marriage and H's family dynamics that even I could never put into words was shocking... 

HB wrote:
And I'm going to tell you something from having been married, and am still married to a man whose parents divorced when he was seven years old; he was MORE damaged and traumatized from the divorce; than he would have been had they been fighting all the time, like MY parents did...I SAW up close and personal the guilt, the shame and the deep trauma my husband was STILL carrying around after over 30 some odd years after his parents divorced right into his MLC. 

This was the FINAL issue he had so much trouble facing; and it took him an additional SIX years to really start facing; but on top of that, God had to intervene, and allow circumstances to cause him to break his ankle; in order to bring him DOWN, helpless as the seven year old he was regressed to, emotionally, in order to FORCE him to face himself fully; and it still took him one more year to finish it all out.   

I have learned a great deal from watching and observing him; his mother had discovered his dad was having an affair; and went right on, and filed for a legal separation, when he was 4, THEN, she got the final divorce from his dad, when he was 7...so she ran from what his dad did; never faced herself, NOR did the work; and though she never remarried; she kept trying to cause a division between my husband and his dad, instead of staying OUT of their business.  It was definitely MLC; and his dad was dealing with the issues surrounding HIS parent's divorce when HE was small.....so the cycle was continuing there.

IMHO, NO matter how old a child is; divorce does do DEEP emotional damage; and the CHILDREN are the ones who get the brunt of the MOST damage, no matter how you, as an adult, might justify it, UNLESS you're in fear of your life because of physical abuse.

Sometimes God will lead a LBS out of the marriage; but most times, He won't; and the reasoning comes more clearly down the line; when the LBS has attained a greater understanding of themselves, AND of the crisis itself. 

You don't even really know how the children will react to a divorce between the two of you; REGARDLESS of the reason...from what I have observed within my husband, I'm thinking it will damage them in ways you'd never expect. 

No matter what a child will say; they ALWAYS feel they are at fault when Mom and Dad divorce; they feel they are the ones that are deficient; yet, they live in fear of being honest about their REAL feelings in that aspect; because they FEAR losing one or both parent's love; and they don't really have a choice, anyway; so they just go along......and it's sad that people are so quick to get a divorce, regardless of which side it comes from....I came to understand, that there is hope in every situation, as long as you still love the MLC spouse; and the damage they do; CAN be gotten past; but you have to be willing to do that kind of work to get there; as it's not easy.

Food for thought; and don't think for one minute, I haven't faced that crossroad of wanting to get a divorce; I did; and through someone the Lord sent to me; I was influenced away from making a life changing decision like that.

And I ask:
I do not WANT a divorce, he filed, he did the work, but as in the example given, how much of an obstacle am I supposed to make of myself. His wedding is planned.  He believes in her and their R.  They are soulmates...  Yes, I think he's crazy, but I will look like the crazy one if I lay myself on the proverbial tracks.  Isn't is better to step away and let them self-destruct on their own?  Believe me I KNOW my kids are suffering and will probably feel the jabs forever, but what do I really risk by forcing myself to be strong and rise above all the insanity.  I changed my entire life so I could get a job and health insurance and provide for my kids.  In a way that forced him to go to her--he needed someone to NEED him.  I think that if I had made myself weak and possibly suicidal, as I think she was, he might have come back to me, but would that have been the right thing to do--to pretend to be something I am not and never want to be, just to save my marriage? 

HB wrote: 
It's not my job to judge people for what they do; it's their life; but no one ever said life would be easy as pie for the whole time we are down here on this earth; trouble will always come in one form or another; and when it comes down to it; you will learn what's set before you, or keep cycling until you do learn, or die, whichever comes first...and I hadn't seen anybody get out of learning what THEIR part is within the breakdown of EVERY marriage; and yes, Ma'am, you, too, have your part; no matter what you say.

On the other hand, I really think the reason you don't "buy" working on yourself, is because, like most people; you are afraid of what you will see if you are totally no holds barred honest within yourself; I know I was; and I had your attitude once in the early days.....I asked why it was ME who had to do the work, when HE was the one who was doing wrong?   I thought I was just fine and dandy.

Turned out I wasn't; I had my own part in the breakdown of our marriage; issues that I needed to look at, growing, changing, and becoming; and it took YEARS to accomplish everything I needed to for and within myself.

I've said this many times; and I'll say it again; if you think you don't have anything that needs working on; you're most likely the one with the BIGGEST issue within; because EVERYBODY has got baggage; no one is an exception..even those who have learned some of Life's Lessons, still have MORE to learn.

If both people within the marriage were all they were supposed to be and had been; the crisis would NOT have happened; just as my husband's crisis, and my transition would NOT have happened, had we been where we were supposed to be in our growth...our marriage didn't "cause" each of our individual periods of growth; our  past ISSUES that were contained within our individual selves was what had caused his crisis; and my subsequent transition to happen.

And I ask: 
Oh believe me, I have issues, I still have issues and things to work on, but after 19 years of marriage and being told that all our issues were mine, and believing him, and believing that his family was perfect where mine was SO dysfunctional, or as he always put it, nonfunctional, I felt like I finally got myself to a peaceful place, and that was what he found so threatening.  After 19 years, I grew a backbone, and that scared him.  I do not want to be the person I was when we married. I do not care that I will never be perfect enough for his mother--that's her issue not mine, but he has to grow enough to not care that I don't care, or it can never work.  Is that wrong?  A few years ago, I would have agreed with you, that I needed to do whatever it took to make my MIL happy, because that would make my H happy.  But I finally realized that nothing was ever going to make her happy, so I would always lose.  I loved him, but until he resolves his mommy issues, he will never be happy, not with me, or OW, himself or his kids--do I think he can get there, I have no idea... 

HB writes: 
My husband had an affair, LisaLives; my son also found out on his own, and urged me to get a divorce; he was 15; but I sat down with him, and explained a few things; one of which was that sometimes, it's NOT that easy; and the other was that there was still hope as long as I loved his dad; and was willing to stand for the marriage; I stood, mainly for MYSELF; my vows, and ultimately, my family; as there was a generation curse of 4 generations of divorce that had to be broken;(didn't know that until later on).

But what I showed our son in the example was this: You don't run at the first sign of trouble; you stand to see what's going to happen; and if you've got to stand in fire and brimstone, for a time, so be it; but you develop the courage to stand to see what will happen next; regardless of the breaking of their vows, you still have yours to consider; and children, especially older children, as I had; don't need to see that it's OK to run away;  and they need to see, that it takes more strength to STAND; than it does to run away; and end up facing it again sometime later; somewhere else.

He did not understand at first; but later on, he understood more; as he watched me deal, grow, change; become, and in turn, teach him the lessons I was learning.

It was later when I realized the fruits of my labor had borne fruit, as he thanked me for what I had done to keep the family together against the odds....when you stand, it's always hard.

Just my .02 cents; based on my own experience; I know it's not easy; I know it's hard, very hard to know just the right thing to do; but in the end, YOU are the ONLY one who will be living with your decisions; good or bad, you will make your bed; and you will lay in it, hard or soft.

EVERYBODY has choices; don't ever think you don't have a choice; you ALWAYS have a choice; it may not be the right choice at times; but you always have a choice; you're not stuck, nor are you forced to stay where you are.....but when you make decisions, think them out carefully; because most of them, will affect the REST of your life; for every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction; and for every action, there IS a consequence.

Now, me, I'm a survivor, and I teach survival; AND I'm also Pro Marriage; always have been, and always will be; and I know, from again, experience, that it is possible to survive and thrive IN SPITE of the crisis; though the journey was long; and sometimes the heartache was deep; I kept going; I knew I needed to; because the end would not be reached, if I stopped walking the journey for myself.

If anyone gets angry with what I post; I can't help that; I just know to tell the truth of what I see.  No one, who walked with me from time to time during my journey ever told half truths, or lied to me, it was always the whole truth in whatever was told to me; and I didn't always want to hear it or understand it; but there were many seeds planted during that time; and these took root later on, beginning to grow, so someone else provided fertilizer and at a later time, someone else, provided water, in order to enhance the growth that was occurring within me; and I'm thankful for the tough love I got from time to time; the truth telling that was told to me, EVEN when I didn't want to hear it, and most of all, I am ever grateful for the genuine love that was also shown, even as the toughest things were said to me; that sometimes, broke me down, so I would see more clearly.

There is a breaking, a building up, another breaking, aspects; whole issues, and a journey; and it takes months, even years to finish; and even then, it's never finished; it continues; you learn till you're gone; and that's a fact. 

Might as well get to it; time's getting on down the road, just like it always has...but if you don't, you really are hurting yourself; not me, not anyone else; because, it is ALWAYS up to you, and no one else. 

There's no other way, I can approach any of this, but within the spirit of love and truth...because I have been there; different situation, same crisis, and most of the same circumstances...and I got through; you can too. 
Where I stand now is attainable by anyone who wishes to walk the road, and take the time to grow, change, and become...in that process, you learn to accept and embrace, forgive, and heal...and time is what you have to work with...no time limit on how or when it's done...just so it gets done. 

And I ask: 
You say it is attainable by anyone.  Do you really believe that?  I believe that if I were willing to "play the game" and even he has called it that--to make his mother happy, I could have him back, but would it be worth it?  I would have lost a son.  OW is willing to do whatever it takes to make his mother happy.  She has the right career and the right demeanor.  I was always too strong for that--I wouldn't wear makeup 24/7, make sure I had a perfect manicure, and say whatever it took to impress their friends...  How much should I give to save my marriage, and how do I weigh that against what I want my boys to see and respect in their own relationships? 

I don't have the answers.  Believe me, I know I don't and I have been challenged over and over and over in so many ways by so many people, I feel like I am dizzy from changing my mind--internally, of course, the decisions I have made have really been few, but life changing, like closing a business and getting a job.  And I am not above working on myself--my new job has forced me to grow in ways I NEVER dreamed, and I practically s$%^ bricks every day before I get dressed, but I do it, for my kids, for health insurance, and a paycheck that means stability in MLC...  But saving my marriage means not doing those things and being what he wants me to be--am I supposed to do that?  If my kids were younger, I would probably stand and nurse him through this, but these are their formative years--and I'm not getting any younger.  If he never comes out of this, I need a career that will give me a retirement and let me pay for college--I don't have time to worry about him, I have to worry about me, and my kids and grandkids.  I felt and still feel like I can choose him, or me and my kids.  Do you really think I can do both?  If I did, I would sacrifice me, and what if I lose? 

Thanks, from the bottom of my heart for making me think, and I don't disagree, but how do I know?  Should I give it all up to get him back?  I know I still could, but what if I lose?   

I truly respect all of you and while I believe in marriage and I am loyal to a fault, my first loyalty is to my kids and I don't see standing for him at this point to be the equal to standing for them.  What am I missing? 

[Dontgiveup]

I don't think you are really missing anything. 

One of the impressions I get is that you either don't believe in, or don't accept the MLC process.  As far as the issues with his mother that you referred to......those are emotional issues that are likely part of the cause of his MLC.  The MLC process will utimately help him figure those things out.  As todays blog from RCR mentions, Replay is about avoiding these issues.....but he will ultimately face them.....and other woman won't be the answer.

Will his marriage to other woman work out?  Highly highly doubtful.
Will he get through the "fog"?  Highly highly likely

I think there are a lot of things you are still unsure about.....and that's part of what Standing is about.....to help YOU figure those out.  You can't control his behavior, but you can learn the Unconditionals and Accept the process of MLC.

[limitless]

I agree that what he is doing is not a reflection of me, but how I CHOOSE to react to it is the only thing I control.  How are/were you SO CERTAIN your H would come out of it. 

I know that RCR states that she had a "knowing" that her marriage would be restored.  HB has stated that she knew with or without her H that she would be okay.  So, that tells me that she knew there was the chance that her marriage would not be restored.  Most do not "know" - most are not certain.  I wonder if my H will ever be back.  While, at the same time, I feel deep inside that we are not finished.  I'm not sure what this means - but I believe one day we will speak to each other and have some type of a closure.....whether or not we will reconcile....I don't know.  I have to trust the fact that most MLCers do make it through the tunnel and most (if not all) regret that actions that they have taken while in the tunnel.  I have hope that my H will come to this realization.  On the other hand, if he does not - while on this journey - I will find that, like HB, I will be okay one way or the other.  Today, I choose to Stand.  Tomorrow, I choose to Stand.  Some day, I may choose NOT to Stand - and be ready for a new relationship or some other path.  Until then, I let it go - live my life like he isn't coming back - and try to find some joy.  There is such a thing as free will.  Your H has it.  So, do you.  In many cases, it is the LBS would makes the final determination of whether or not the marriage is restored.  In some cases, the pain is too deep - the time is too long.  This is up to you.  You have choice.  Just as I have choice.

I am not--so many people here believe they can be the lighthouse, but I believe I actually drove my H away...  I loved him totally and completely, but how do I know he is not one who will be lost to the fog forever?  In hindsight, he has never shown me any strength.  I have been the one for the last 20 years that has bent and adapted to everything, and believe me, that was painful and difficult.  I truly believe that my growth is what caused the death of our marriage.  But my growth was also what saved my son's life, so there is no way I would give that back...  Several weeks ago, when discussing part of our cancer journey, my other S14 asked me "when you were doing all this, what was Dad doing?"  And I tried to be as diplomatic as possible and told him that Dad was always with me and we were a team, and he said, "well the way I saw it, dad was taking care of his parents, and you know having them around is like having two more kids..."  Well I nearly drove off the road, that he knew something about my marriage and H's family dynamics that even I could never put into words was shocking...

I believe that you are taking responsibility for your H's crisis.  You may feel that if you would have been like this, or you would have done that - then your H wouldn't have had a crisis.  You did not cause it.  Just as you cannot fix it.  If you would have been more needy - it would have been because you were too needy.  My H has had issues on and off for a long time.  I did not cause them.  But, he blamed me when he left.  That is part of the script.  Blaming the spouse - because the MLCer is not ready to take responsibility for their own actions. 

Honestly, NOTHING you would have done would have changed anything.  This is NOT your fault.  Trust in this.

I do not WANT a divorce, he filed, he did the work, but as in the example given, how much of an obstacle am I supposed to make of myself. His wedding is planned.  He believes in her and their R.  They are soulmates...  Yes, I think he's crazy, but I will look like the crazy one if I lay myself on the proverbial tracks.  Isn't is better to step away and let them self-destruct on their own?

Yes.  It is better to step back and stay out of it.  There is no such thing as "soul mates."  Love is a choice that is made by two people - who spend the time and live through the life experiences together.  Any short term "schmoopie" love is infatuation....and hormones.  Nothing more.  I am not sure what you mean by laying on the proverbial tracks?  Are you doing something self destructive?  If so....stop.  Your first and foremost responsiblity is to care for yourself.  You cannot take care of your children unless you are first healthy and strong.  Focus on that.  If your H is getting married to the OW (there are others here with similiar siutations) - step back.....stay out of it....let "real life" hit them right between the eyes.  This is not real.  This is a fantasy.

 

Believe me I KNOW my kids are suffering and will probably feel the jabs forever, but what do I really risk by forcing myself to be strong and rise above all the insanity.  I changed my entire life so I could get a job and health insurance and provide for my kids.  In a way that forced him to go to her--he needed someone to NEED him.  I think that if I had made myself weak and possibly suicidal, as I think she was, he might have come back to me, but would that have been the right thing to do--to pretend to be something I am not and never want to be, just to save my marriage?

You did not force him to go to her.  Unfortunately, infidelity is a symptom of MLC.  They MLCer needs a needy and helpless OW - as the MLCer feels poorly about himself.  This needy and wanting person makes the MLCer feel better about himself.  You do not need to nor should you compete with the OW.  Again, she is not important.  Just a symptom - like a runny nose or a cough.  It is something an MLCer will do - during Replay.  While in Replay the MLCer is avoiding facing the real issue (HIMSELF).  Replay is avoidance.  The OW is an avoidance.  It is only through avoidance that the MLCer will be able to learn that even though he avoids dealing with his issues - the avoidance does not ultimately make him happy.  He is then forced to face himself.  This takes time (much time) so you need to stop watching the pot boil and get to living your life.

Pretending to be something or someone who is not you - will NOT save your marriage. 

Oh believe me, I have issues, I still have issues and things to work on, but after 19 years of marriage and being told that all our issues were mine, and believing him, and believing that his family was perfect where mine was SO dysfunctional, or as he always put it, nonfunctional, I felt like I finally got myself to a peaceful place, and that was what he found so threatening.  After 19 years, I grew a backbone, and that scared him.  I do not want to be the person I was when we married. I do not care that I will never be perfect enough for his mother--that's her issue not mine, but he has to grow enough to not care that I don't care, or it can never work.  Is that wrong?  A few years ago, I would have agreed with you, that I needed to do whatever it took to make my MIL happy, because that would make my H happy.  But I finally realized that nothing was ever going to make her happy, so I would always lose.  I loved him, but until he resolves his mommy issues, he will never be happy, not with me, or OW, himself or his kids--do I think he can get there, I have no idea... 

  Good.  You got it, there.  My H also has Mommy issues.  She is a controlling Narcissist.  And guess where he is living right now?  Yep.  With his Mom and Dad.  At 57!  You are right.  HE needs to deal with those Mommy issues.  HE needs to grow up.  OW will not solve it.  Only HE can solve it.  I understand how you feel about the MIL issues.  My H always gave in to his Mother.  This is something that I hope he changes (when he gets out of the tunnel) as this made him (and me) miserable for so many years.  He will never be happy - until he becomes his own man - and speaks up for himself to his Mother.  (Mine is the same way).  I believe his Mommy issues are some of the main reason he is having an MLC today.  (So, I have even more to "thank" her for).

You say it is attainable by anyone.  Do you really believe that?  I believe that if I were willing to "play the game" and even he has called it that--to make his mother happy, I could have him back, but would it be worth it?  I would have lost a son.  OW is willing to do whatever it takes to make his mother happy.  She has the right career and the right demeanor.  I was always too strong for that--I wouldn't wear makeup 24/7, make sure I had a perfect manicure, and say whatever it took to impress their friends...  How much should I give to save my marriage, and how do I weigh that against what I want my boys to see and respect in their own relationships? 

  You do not need to become OW.  So, don't try.  You need to be yourself.  We all have issues that we need to work on.  Take this time to work on yourself.  Take care of your kids.  Leave your MLCer and OW to live their fantasy life.  It will crumble on its own.  You don't need to help it.

I don't have the answers.  Believe me, I know I don't and I have been challenged over and over and over in so many ways by so many people, I feel like I am dizzy from changing my mind--internally, of course, the decisions I have made have really been few, but life changing, like closing a business and getting a job.  And I am not above working on myself--my new job has forced me to grow in ways I NEVER dreamed, and I practically s$%^ bricks every day before I get dressed, but I do it, for my kids, for health insurance, and a paycheck that means stability in MLC...  But saving my marriage means not doing those things and being what he wants me to be--am I supposed to do that?  If my kids were younger, I would probably stand and nurse him through this, but these are their formative years--and I'm not getting any younger.  If he never comes out of this, I need a career that will give me a retirement and let me pay for college--I don't have time to worry about him, I have to worry about me, and my kids and grandkids.  I felt and still feel like I can choose him, or me and my kids.  Do you really think I can do both?  If I did, I would sacrifice me, and what if I lose? 

  You should never sacrifice yourself.  Take care of you.  Focus on the kids/grandkids.  Take care of your career and future.  He has to figure out his issues on his own.  You need to let go of the idea that if you do something - he will come back or change.  YOU cannot change that he is in MLC.  YOU cannot do anything for HIM.  Don't sacrifice yourself.  DO the things you need to do.  Let him go. 

I truly respect all of you and while I believe in marriage and I am loyal to a fault, my first loyalty is to my kids and I don't see standing for him at this point to be the equal to standing for them.  What am I missing?

  Stand for yourself.  Stand for your kids.  Leave him to twist in the wind.  Focus on YOUR life.  He needs to go through his journey....and you, yours.  It is not a journey that you can take together.  I know this to be true.

Do not focus on your relationship or your H.  Put it in a box on a shelf.  Give it a rest. 

I think you are doing what I did the first few months after my H left.  I constantly questioned myself....I felt guilty....like I had driven him away.   I felt responsible for the break up of my family.  I think is was important that I looked at what I had done to lead to the demise of my marriage...but I also think it is important that I realized that this wasn't my fault.  This was/is my H's issue.  The kids and I are, unfortunately, collateral damage. 

My priority was to pick myself up......get back to my life....and be a Mom to my kids.  I let go of my husband.

Don't beat yourself up with guilt and remorse.  Look at yourself...fix what needs fixing and be proud of yourself for doing it.

Hugs,

Limitless