[TrustingMyHP]

Exiled,

I'm a big fan of Hollis' and I have the same "concern" you do.  Glad someone's posted on this.  Thank you!

I've read several of his books since BD 5 months ago:  (The Middle Passage; The Eden Project--a must read for LBS's in my view; Tracking the Gods; Swamplands of the Soul; and Finding Meaning in the Second Half of Life.)

While much of what I've read in Hollis I find comforting, and all of it extremely well written and rich with things to ponder, some of it does unsettle me--big time.  Like you/your W, Hollis makes me seriously consider if MLC can be a legitimate, albeit messy and destructive, quest for a higher, better, "integrated" self on the part of the MLCer.

My understanding of Hollis' thesis is that we spend the first half of our lives trying to accomplish the difficult, demanding work of separating ourselves from our parents and FOO; establishing ourselves in a career; making the social and professional connections that will aid these tasks; marrying and having children and accomplishing the demanding, exhausting work of that undertaking; and, all the while, developing and "perfecting" a personna that will help us do these difficult things--a personna that makes these tasks doable/easier for us, but which likely does not reflect our true selves; our sacred "Self" (with a capital "S"!) as Jung called it.

Our created "personna," as I understand Hollis, is what gets us into trouble in that it can (and does with most people) becomes a mask which, in midlife, it is necessary for us to shed/abandon if we are to become "individuated." Achieving "individuation" is Hollis' way of saying becoming who we were meant to be in this life, our true "Self."

Hollis is trying to elucidate Jung's famous statement, "We cannot live the afternoon of life according to the program of life's morning:  for what was great in the morning will be little at evening, and what in the morning was true will at evening have become a lie."

Although Hollis makes "disclaimers" of sorts in some of his books that he's not promoting people leaving long-term marriages, he does seem to lean (in my understanding of him anyway) toward saying that people must do whatever it's going to take to shed the personna that's getting in the way of, or making impossible, the quest for their true Self.

In The Eden Project Hollis makes very clear that believing another person can make you happy is NOT the path of finding the true Self and is only going to lead to misery and dead ends.  He touches upon in that book about the futility of people abandoning long term marriages because they've fallen in love with someone else who they believe is going to complete/save them.   (And isn't that what almost all MLCer's claim the OP is going to do for them?)

Hollis has a rather clear-eyed (some might say semi-suspicious) view of the whole business of falling in love and romance.  He clearly believes  it's a temporary, hormonally induced state of nature, necessary for the continuation of the species, that has the potential of leading to long term, rewarding, real relationship with another but must always be seen as an addition to one's life, not the primary purpose of our existence.

He is critical of our society's worship of romantic love as the end-all-and-be-all of existence and is urging people to remember that no one outside of ourselves can complete or save us from the hard work of individuation in midlife.

In the two years leading up to BD, my H became a big fan of the writings of Joseph Campbell, who writes almost exclusively about the "heros journey," and even started attending a Campbell book discussion group.  He hadn't discovered Hollis but I'm sure he would have loved him.  In a convo with H about 3 months post BD I mentioned how much I was enjoying The Eden Project and H told me OW had given it to him to read!  (I can tell you I had a bad sinking spell about that!)  In an additional irony/knife in my heart my H and OW met standing in line for a lecture about spirituality!

I believe my H has been trying, albeit clumsily, to do the work Hollis talks about:  shedding the mask, finding his true Self. 

Like many/most MLCers, things that used to be important to him (possessions, being seen as a "good guy," his work, myself and his D) have taken a back seat in his life to his "quest" for whatever it is he's looking for.  He would say it's for the true "Self" and that OW is part of that quest. 

Problem is, from what I'm seeing, his behaviour is so typical MLC in his relationship with OW (she's a classic affair down/H's has said lots of crazy things, especially in the beginning, like wanting her to live with us, wanting me to love her as much as he does, believing our D would come to love her as much as he does) real La-La Land stuff that doesn't sound at all like individuation to me but more like running from the work of individuation.

So I guess my current take (and this could, of course, change) is that, in my H's case, he is on a legitimate spiritual journey to find his true self, but he took a detour, like Ulysses does when he stays with Calypso and Circe on their islands, a detour motivated by his desire to avoid the hard work of discovering/creating the true Self.  He believes OW is the answer.  But I thinks she's a quick fix to get him out of the pain of the birth of the true Self. 

Great topic!

TMHP

M  58
H  60
D   22
M  38 yrs.
BD Jan., '11
H living with OW 





 

[Dontgiveup]

Am I off base, or is a lot of this psychological terminology a fancy way of discussing the maturation process?

[Rookie13]

StandandDeliver, I agree that there are success stories. I was talking about the path a MLCer takes to get there. Some how books can glorify MLC leaving out the destructive path. I was just wondering if this path is the same as the doctors who write these books talks about. All the pain and suffering to have a "better" marriage, never mind if the kids will ever be the same again or what kind of damage they will carry in their lives. Do they ever touch on that stuff in these books? just curious.

[Trustandlove]

No, DGU, I don't think you're off base.

I think there are healthy changes that we all could make around midlife -- such as a SAHM getting a job which means that other family members have to help out, a corporate climber deciding that the charity sector meets his needs more, which may mean other familly members having to adapt, and so on.  Lots more there. 

But someone deciding at midlife that he never really wanted to have kids but did because it was the thing to do and is now going to live the single life crosses the line for me.  Sure, it does follow that if he had kids because it was the thing to do and now wants something more for himself that he should follow his "bliss", as RCR puts it, but that shouldn't, in my book, anyway, mean discarding the kids.  I think this is where it gets twisted.  They then blame the spouse for them having had the kids, and discard the spouse, say they aren't discarding the kids but kids get damaged anyway.  It's the blinkers.  It's the blinkers that in my book keeps it from being "self-actualisation" as opposed to a crisis. 

Gotta run....

[Rookie13]

I agree TAL, Unfortunately though the MLCer has to go through a "shedding" period for 2-5 yrs before they come out a "better" person and in some form "admit" that all the shedding and the humiliating behavior was for not and "at home" being responsible was in all actuality "the way to go" in the first place.

One question would be, if we did not stand, would the MLCer become a better more complete, adjusted person? If we did not hand them back all that they lost, kids included, Would they be in a "higher place". food for thought.

I still feel "this type" of MLC should be approached as a "disease" and therefore with our understanding and help, We, because we stood are/will be the ones to bring them up from rock bottom, not the crisis.

[BonBon]

I'm really not trying to be a wise-*ss here and honestly, I applaud all of you who delve into this heavy stuff but can someone explain to me why MLC's are almost non-existent in other cultures?

I was a psych major and I have to say, I never bought into the self actualization stuff.  No offense to those who do but I just don't. 

I've seen lots of websites written mostly by men (though I'm sure there are female ones out there too) and there is tons of talk about their needs and their growth and becoming who they want to be and so on and so forth.  Funny how these websites rarely have writings from men who have stuck with or gone back to their families.

I'm really sorry but I see this as more drivel as justification for narcissistic, immature behavior.  And even though I agree that depression is at the root of this, when little kids have temper tantrums, it's understandable yes but they are taught that it is not acceptable and so is the case with acting cruelly and selfishly while in depression. 

Excile, frankly, I think it's tough enough that your wife is going off on her quest but accusing you of things because you appreciate the simple things is just more MLC spew.  And pretty arrogant at that.  Correct me if I'm wrong but I can think of a few people who appreciated simplicity in life...Mother Theresa, Ghandi, Jesus Christ....there's nothing wrong with simplicity and it sounds like YOU are the one who is self actualized...not her!

[Mitzpah]

I have just read through this interesting thread and although I did not see the video, I think I 'get' what is being discussed here. I think that MLC is when the natural 'individuation'/actualization is complicated by FOO issues or faulty previous transitions (especially adolescence/young adulthood). One thing that has struck me is what Bon Bon says

why MLC's are almost non-existent in other cultures?

As I live in another 'culture' and I find that very little support is given here to MLC. The therapist I consulted pooh-poohed the idea from the start, most of my friends look at me as if I am imagining things, his relatives really don't get it, mine do, but then, maybe that is because of the cultural difference?
The individuation/actualization idea is easier to sell and there is quite a lot of support for the idea. Even his psychiatrist suggested as much when she spoke of maturation (he has given her up by the way ).
This is why I think that this is a 'crisis' that has roots in the four aspects of 'self' - spiritual, mental, physical and social. For some reason, the MLCer loses sight of self and becomes lost in a fog/tunnel needing to 'discover' these aspects again.
What I do know, is that whatever it is, I want it over!!

[Synicca]

Im gonna go off track just a bit here...I believe my Dad was going through MLC for a long period.
but kept his PA secret until my parents D back in 2000. Now that he is with his New wife ( the OW )

He treats her with love and kindness...does a Huge amount of things for her...he is p*ssy whipped
if you ask me..and the OW my "wicked step mother" who I call "The wicked" 

She is a control freak...treats my dad like sh*t. demands him to do this or that and treats his kids (us) like
garbage...I guess the point I am getting at...is MY mom didnt reap the benefits of his MLC, the other woman
did.

He says that he wanted to become a better person because he was so horrible to my mom. He did make
alot of changes for the better in himself..but My Mom is the one that left him..so I dont think he would
have ever left...just kept the PA going until God knows when. It was a 10 yr PA.

SO somewhere in there his MLC struck. We seen it..just not him.

[Synicca]

realized...I may have just posted that in the wrong thread....hehehe sorry!

[readytofixmyselffirst]

By being absent from most cultures, what do you mean? I have been on this site and seen many marriages including my own that are mixed race/culture and still the spouse suffers from the same affliction. My concern is that while our culture focuses on MLC- it is really a very small percentage that actually go through this "crisis". Therefore, it is not an issue in many other cultures.

An example of this is our country's fixation with ADHD/ADD and the number of children overdiagnosed with the condition as compared to other cultures. Also, many other cultures are not as fixated on youth and expression of one's individualty as the western culture is and this tends to lead to self-analysis of one's self and the pusuit of "happiness".

I want to weigh in on this "self-actualization" process. I hate to say that none of this has anything to do with marriage or relationships in the sense of "I need a new person to have sex with". Self actualization is taking your existing relationship to the next level where a deeper understanding of self and your interactions with your loved ones becomes much more meaningful. It is a process of accepting yourself and that inner peace (not happiness) comes from within. It is not about materials, career, or new relationships.

Happiness is a feeling. It is not something we can tap into and have pour into our veins at will. If that is the case, why not pursue other emotions and feelings. Why not seek permanent anger?

If self actualization is your w's goal, then why is she still focused on meeting life's basic needs "food, shelter.." and emotional needs...."love...friendship... which are at the lower end of the basic needs pyramid? In other words, she is actually moving away from self-actualization then she is moving towards such a process.

Another observation is that as we move towards "self-actualization" and discovering one's true self and purpose in life, why is your wife angry with you? If she were moving forward in self-discovery, why anger towards someone who no longer should have any meaning to her?

If you read your wife's responses, they are not about acceptance or understanding of self. Instead, it is about avoiding self and dealing with one's internal demons that haunt our souls. If she were actually moving towards actualization, she would take a step towards learning more about you, your motivations and what you feel about the relationship so that she can completely accept you into her world. She would understand your position in her life with the same balance and precision that the moon orbits our own planet.

What amazes me is how we try to apply a noble cause "self-actualization" towards a new mindset that is really a focus on narcissitic feelings and hedonisitic actions. Which in my book is trying to put lipstick on the proverbial pig.

Just my two cents.