[SpecialK]

I came across this article which I thought was interesting:

http://ezinearticles.com/?How-Depression-Can-Threaten-Your-Marriage&id=348287

[SpecialK]

Here's another one:


http://ezinearticles.com/?Recognizing-Depression-in-Men&id=4069281

[OldPilot]

My only comment about depression is that it can also hit the LBS. I personally was on AD's for a few months, even though my wife refuses to acknowledge her depression. My Dr. said I had post traumatic stress. I used lexapro until I started to feel better and stronger.
Take care of yourself first!

[MarkedandHealed]

OP, what was the withdrawal like on that drug, and how did you feel while on it and after off of it?

I wonder what the difference between drugs and supplements would be.

[OldPilot]

The drug made me feel better. No anxiety.
I was able to deal with my wife  and my life so much better.
I noticed the difference almost right away. It took about two weeks to get to the full effect.
There were a few side effects but nothing all that bad. I think I was on them for about three months. I took myself off, which I probably shouldn't have done without a doctor but the withdrawl was not bad. I started cutting back the dosage. Cutting pills in 1/2 and then smaller.
After I took myself off the divorce talk had stopped with my wife so I really didn't feel the extreme pressure anymore. I don't think anyone should fear AD's, they are there to help you.
I would recommend them to most LBS, at least at the beginning.

I never took supplements, like St John's wort so I don't know what the difference would be.

[Love being on higher grounds]

I whole heartedly believe that if left untreated, depression can destroy life as we know it..

I have taken them and see tremendous improvement in my mood, concentration level,my patience, my sleep patterns... in general just living everyday life...

My husband was so down that he had mentioned not wanting to live anymore...he is now on an anti depressant . the improvement is unmeasurable!

I use this analogy...if it were your heart, you would want to try a med to help...

this is only my opinion! I know there are people out there who may not have had such great  outcomes...

[Mermaid]

Psychiatrists now belief that if depression is left untreated, the mind learns how to think in a depressive way and creates new patterns of behaviour. So it is essential that depression gets treated quickly in order to avoid this. Meds help to restore mental balance, but is no substitute for finding out the original cause of the depression if it is chronic rather than accute.

[Trustandlove]

I would agree with that.  Cognitive behaviour therapy is useful for helping to train the mind to think in a non-depressive way, if that makes sense. 

I have taken ad's as well; they do help.  I didn't find withdrawal difficult; it was very gradual and then I realized that they were no longer necessary.  I believe research shows that a combination of approaches offers the best results in many cases. 

[MarkedandHealed]

Thanks all. I hope that helps some out there decide to take control and admit they need help.

For me, 5HTP has been wonderful. It's not making me joyful and singing happy, but takes the edge off and allows me to sleep soundly. I was taking St. John's wort with it but got ill. Probably some sort of interaction between them. Some sources say not to combine them and some say it's fine.

I was afraid to take ADs because I'm so sensitive and for some, they cause thoughts of suicide. So, I decided to go the natural route... and I've never before considered it. I'm someone who does everything naturally and organically, with herbs, etc. So, for those of you out there unsure, please consider doing it. Take either ADs or start with supplements.

PS. I know of one neurologist who recommends 5HTP over ADs -= and that's how I decided to try it first. It's worked for me. You can order it from vitacost and I'm using Solaray, since it's standardized. About $10 for a 20 day supply, if you take it three times a day as I do.

Please get the help of a physician before trying any drugs, natural or otherwise. There are side effects to everything, even gentle herbs. And if you're taking any other drugs or supplements, they may interact.

[Mermaid]

A word about gentle herbs: they're not always so gentle. In many cases, they contain a mixture of naturally occurring chemicals that can have adverse side effects (like medications, but without the warnings). Moreover, food supplements are not subject to the same controls as meds, so you never quite know what you're getting. Finally, many meds extract the active ingredients from natural sources, which are then put into meds in a a pure form in carefully controlled quantities.
St. John's Wort is one natural herb that has quite a few side effects!
Yes, anti depressives can have different effects, including drowsiness, suicide, weight gain and hyperactivity, so care is needed.
If anyone out there really wants to go natural, I would recommend meditation and yoga.

[OldPilot]

I was afraid to take ADs because I'm so sensitive and for some, they cause thoughts of suicide.

This was my wife's objection also but after talking to the doctor he explained that they can only cause suicide if you are so depressed that you can't actually commit the act. When you take the AD's they give you some relief right away and that is when people that want to committ suicide, do it . The full effects don't kick in for 2 weeks. So the first 2 weeks on AD's should be watched carefully. After that the risk of suicide is slim. Also I was on them for stress not depression.

[LifeGoesOn]

I take 5-HTP. Psychiatrist suggested i try it first and it did the job of taking the edge off. DS is on Zoloft for Anxiety & Depression. It has been a good thing for him, erased his obsessive thinking patterns and irritability. He also sees a family therapist 2x a month. 

A healthy diet and exercise are a must.

[SpecialK]

Hello

I have a few questions about depression:

If you try to resolve it yourself or simple just bury it (try to avoid the feelings) and the feeling go, are they likely to come back, and if so are they worse.

If left untreated, what could happen?

What happens if you ignore and carry on like nothings wrong (ie through yourself into work so that you don't have to think), could this lead to a breakdown?

[Voyager]

Hi Special K
Ok I suspect there might be people on here more expert than me. I've suffered with clinical depression on and off most of my life, so I can give you some perspective on it from a sufferers point of view rather than a medical one.
First of all you need to know if it is depression, as opposed to feeling down and low and stressed. Sometimes in the early stages it's hard to know.
Then there are different types of depression, so learning about what they are helps. There's a lot of info on the net.
If it is depression it does need to be treated, but what treatment really is up to you.
In my case in my earlier periods I went on AD's but later as I got to recognise my symptoms better I relied only on therapy and in my case, but it's not for all, CBT was most effective. Exercise is really good too, some people use a combnation of all three.
My last 2 episodes were much shorter and I didn't take AD's.
Strangely through my crises with my h I haven't slipped into depression. Stress yes, low mood yes, but not a full blown episode.
And you mustn't be scared of it, it's an illness, and there are a lot of ways to recover from it.
Hope that helps. Hope you'e ok. xx

[Trustandlove]

My take is that burying the feelings doesn't work -- they do just come back, possibly stronger. 

I, too, found that CBT was the most effective; I did start to see someone, but found that it worked better to get some good books and do it myself.  A combination is probably best....  I've also done ad's when needed -- sometimes they are enough to remind you what "normal" is -- and they can take off the worst of the panic so you can function, if that is the issue.

I put the books in the resources section; I actually bought a number of them and went with the one that worked best for me.  The theory is the same, each book uses slightly different vocabulary and examples. 

But it takes a lot of work -- and you have to actually do the exercises in writing, just thinking about them doesn't work.   There is a huge difference in getting it down on paper. 

[Purple stain]

so on my commute home today, I've been thinking. How can someone who is depressed/has been depressed for several years overcome depression?

It is a vicious cycle. My h has not been in the mood to do anything, not even sports these days. He's very tired but can't sleep. His therapist told him to "balance" his life but I have not seen any changes.

I'm just wondering, how can they pull themselves out of all these negative thoughts and feelings? I was slightly depressed for a while when I wasn't working and not in school and that's how my h became my world. And that's when I decided I had to finally do something about it which I did! After thinking about it for quite some time, I applied at my school and got in. Actually, finally I thought I had it all (loving h etc) and then my world came crashing down on me by BD. Sometimes I wonder if that might have triggered my H's MLC that I'm going for my dreams and he isn't...

So I guess that answers my question in a way that you have to make a change. But why don't our "nuts and squirrels" (MLCers) do that instead of throwing their families away and look for something that doesn't exist?! How can they not see that they need to make changes in their lives to be happy? I know that happiness doesn't come from outer circumstances but sometimes you have to change something to be happy again.

Any thoughts?

[In this for ME]

I wish I knew why it had to be so radical.

I talked to someone about what happened to me the other day and they said "Gee..I know a couple of guys that went through that - but they got tatoos". WOW some of them can solve it with something so simple and other ones, like all of our nuts and squirrels ( love that by the way) have to join Alice in the rabbit hole. 

I have bouts of depression but I don't remember how I get out of it. I know the feeling when it starts it's like a veil that drops down over me. I can almost feel it.

I think you hit it on the head PS. You finally just realize somehow that you have to take action.

Problem is if your messed up enough (MLC) it's pretty much a sure thing your decision on what to do is going to be wrong.

In the meantime the path they have to clear cut to get to where they are going or find what they are looking for (If they even know) is wide and long.

And like some deaf, blind, farmer with a huge scythe the destruction and bleeding bodies they leave behind in thier wake is enough to curdle the blood of the most stouted hearted human beings on earth.

[covenantkeeper]

I have thought about this for this entire year since my bomb drop. I can't give you a definite reason for any of this except to say that we are all different. We process and react to things differently. Some of us have a strong faith that helps and some think they can do everything on their own.

I think MLC is very different than depression. For instance, my h has suffered from depression for most of our marriage. While he has been the negative one....we called him BA (for Bad Attitude) from the character in the old A-Team show. That and Eeyore from Winnie the Pooh. Any time my husband would start that gloom and doom stuff I would try to snap him out of it, but I could only manage to do that sometimes. And now that I look back on it, I realize how exhausting it was to keep trying to lift his spirits!

The other day my h told me he has always gone by the idea that he always expects the worst to happen and that way if it's better he is surprised. I was flabbergasted that he said this and furthermore that he said it's what his family lived by. I said Bingo! Now we know where your problem and stinking thinking started. He didn't understand that. I explained to him that by thinking and expecting the worst in everything in his life, he will only get the worst. I said, you reap what you sow! I told him if he thinks people are mistreating him or everything he does will fail, that's what he'll get. And once a person has that attitude, they stop looking for anything positive to come from anyone else. My h said oh, so you go skipping around in life thinking everything is coming up roses? LOL! I told him I strive to think the best about a person and to believe that everything will work out no matter what the situation is. And I reminded him that if I didn't do that, why in the world would I even be talking to him?!!

Even though medications work, a person isn't going to change their negative thinking without learning new behavior. We have to get rid of stinking thinking. I actually believe this negative stuff just becomes a habit...it's a way of life. A person needs to create a new habit.

Two books that I have read on this subject that have been tremendous help to me are Battlefield of the Mind and Power Thoughts by Joyce Meyer. She writes these from a Christian perspective and I have no idea if you are comfortable with that or not. In my own LBS journey, nothing helped me more than these books. I found myself carrying them around with me and reading passages over and over again. Whatever battle I was having at the moment, I would find a chapter that covered that. So, I would read it again to get those positive words in my head. And it works! Just like the other way of garbage in, garbage out works for cementing negative thoughts.

As far as why don't our MLC ers do this instead of blaming us and doing all this damage? That's easy to answer. Because it's easier for them to blame us so they won't have to look at themselves. They don't want to admit anything they've done wrong because then they would have to admit they've screwed up. They have to want to change. Until they get that want to, change will not occur.

The therapist I went to see told me that men are the worst at change and talking to anyone about their depression. Their idea of talking is to simply say to a guy, "yeah, I'm having trouble with the wife." Then the other guy will say," been there, done that. Good luck to you" as he gives him a hit on the shoulder.  And they're done! They think that's really talking out a problem! 

Women are wired differently. We are fixers, problem solvers, relationship healers. We see a problem, research the reason, and seek out a way to fix it! If that means we need to talk to a friend, pastor, or therapist, we do it. If it means we need to read books and change ourselves in order to see change in the other person, we do it. If it means we need to pray more, we do it. We will try anything to get to the bottom of the problem, because we have that built inside of us to mend relationships.

Now, I realize there are men who don't go through MLC and there are women who do and therefore you see the opposite in their actions. But, this is just a general explanation of how men and women are different. And since it seems people in MLC act like they've been abducted by aliens, they can act in every which way. Nothing they do is rational anyway.

[Rollercoasterider]

Purple Stain,
 

How can someone who is depressed/has been depressed for several years overcome depression?
...how can they pull themselves out of all these negative thoughts and feelings?
 
His therapist told him to "balance" his life but I have not seen any changes.

Well, that sounds helpful--pardon my sarcasm. Hopefully the therapist worked on something more concrete than merely saying the words, otherwise that is as helpful as my Grandma who has the buck up attitude and thus dismisses anyone else's problems or complaints. Telling a person to balance their life without helping the person to come up with active ideas that will bring balance. What does it even mean to balance your life? It will be different for each person.
 
There are various types of depression. For some it will take medication. Others can make dietary changes in place of pharmaceuticals. Lifestyle changes are a huge factor.
 
Situational depression is different than clinical depression, it also may serve a healthy function similar to the way a fever is often the body's way of removing harmful invaders. Situational depression may manifest as grief and is not uncommon after the death of a parent or when you are an LBS of an MLCer.
 
Change is important. But it's just a word when discussed without any actions to support it. Talking about change does nothing. Doing it is what counts. But doing what? The word change itself is non-descript.
 
Some things for a depressed person to think about:
What are you doing differently when you are not feeling depressed?
What are the circumstances in your life when you are not depressed?
What are you feeling when you are not feeling depressed?

The idea is to focus on what works and waht you want rather than on waht is not working and what you do not want.

Now consider that in MLC a person will project in order to answer those questions. If they are in an in-fatuative affair, they will truly believe that it is a cure to their depression because in-fatuation is creating a hormonal high--like a drug. When high, the idea that there could be a crash is unbelievable and even unimaginable. So their answer may be about the elation they feel when under the spell of in-fatuation--but they do not know it is a spell.
 

why don't our "nuts and squirrels" (MLCers) do that [make a change] instead of throwing their families away and look for something that doesn't exist?! How can they not see that they need to make changes in their lives to be happy?

They are making changes--you know that already because of the situation you are now in. It's different, right? Leaving you is making a change in their life--a big one. True, it is not a healthy change. It is unhealthy due to the manner they are going about it--often adultery, and because they are doing it in a way that harms others. That makes it selfish. Finding Self and focusing on your Self when they are Self-Centered methods and motives(centered=balanced) are positive actions; they are not selfish which is a focus on Self over others and to the detriment of others. But as you are well aware, MLCers focus on Self in selfish ways because they harm others to get what they want. Often they do not want to harm others and yet they are aware that their actions cause damage and yet this does not stop them.

Causing pain/hurt is different than damage. Sometimes honesty, whether kind or brutal, but necessary, causes pain. The pain is the result of the receiver's choice. We choose to feel hurt by someone else's actions and thus they are not responsible for how we feel. Damage is different. It is something inflicted upon us without our choice or consent. The most obvious non-physical damage in MLC situations is to the children since the crisis can have a negative affect on development.
 
Why do they think the necessary change is to abandon their marriage?
Life with you is their main environment. When looking for the cause of a problem, first look toward the thing that has the greatest influence. That is usually Work or Family. If work is just a job, then it will be eliminated from the possibilities. If work has been unstable but they suddenly feel even worse, then they will eliminate work as a possibility because they've been through those hardships before. The family is often the first source of blame and projection. Rather than a comfort and safety zone, the family becomes a suspect. Suspicion breed paranoia, and thus their radar may have been more sensitive since the MLC trigger--12-36 before Bomb Drop.

Then consider the affects of their negative behaviour on themselves. Their actions can create a negative cycle of depression because when they see what they are doing or what they have done they may become more depressed or depressed again. MLC actions feed depression. It's ironic because MLCers take those actions in hopes they will cure depression--though they may not label themselves as depressed.

Depression is about feeling that things--whatever those things  may be for the individual--are hopeless. So a depressed person may start looking for a cause and a cure. MLC is a crisis of Self. It is in part brought on by the surfacing of the Shadow--which is scary. The person wants to hide from the Shadow, they want to stuff it back inside themselves where they can pretend it doesn't exist. They are ashamed of what is buried in their Shadow. To do that they must eliminate their own Self as a cause. So they must look outside of themselves for what makes them depressed. You--their spouse and family--will be among the first they study. They may have eliminated you from suspect early on--perhaps soon after the trigger. But after running through other possibilities and eliminating them, they are back to you. Nothing else fits--so they say--so that means you must be the problem.

Since MLC is about the Shadow, one of the things an MLCer needs to do to get through the depression is face his Shadow. That is what Liminality is about.

[Purple stain]

Thanks RCR! That's where my h is "Liminality is Overt Depression". He can't sleep although he's extremely tired. He has no interest in anything not even in sports which he used to live for! He told me he is happy in the morning because then nothing has happened yet but as the day progresses the drudgery of the day wears on him.

He told me that "he doesn't think all of this has anything to do with me". He said whether he stays or goes, he's hurting me because of the place he is in right now.

I guess there's nothing I can do to help him except to pray and ask for God to guide him through the tunnel and face his shadows...

[NinjaGirl]

How can someone who is depressed/has been depressed for several years overcome depression?

I was just talking to a friend last night that self-admittedly went through a MLC years ago.  He said he sunk into a deep depression and went cuckoo.  He's told me repeatedly that someone in depression will refuse listening to anyone telling them that they are in a depression.  People don't want to face their own demons.  If anything, by telling someone they are depressed, the person will fight the idea even more. 

So I asked him what made him snap out of it.  He said he's really not sure, but he thinks it was because one day he was wallowing and he realized that there truly was nobody else to blame anymore.  He was alone, and there was no attention for his depression, and he thinks that what made him realized that the problem was his and his alone.

The pain is the result of the receiver's choice. We choose to feel hurt by someone else's actions and thus they are not responsible for how we feel.

I've always liked the saying... "Nobody can MAKE you feel anything"  It's so true.  Self worth has to come from within.

I dunno.  I honestly think in the end it comes down to personality, genetics, and upbringing.  Some people look at the glass half full and others see it as half empty.  Perspective is everything.

[xyzcf]

http://www.thirdage.com/relationships-love/why-men-leave-what-every-woman-and-man-needs-to-know

This was posted on the subscribers side by another LBSer ...I asked to post it here because for me anyway, it is dead on.

This article has me in tears..because it seems so true in my case and so hopeless...how can they possibly resolve this?



Quote

But the primary reason men leave is that they are overwhelmed with shame.



About 9 mo post BD my husband sat on the couch and refused to look at me..when I asked him why, he dropped his head and stated "shame, shame, shame". I held him and told him "no shame" but it wasn't enough.

There are a couple of other things that happened that allow me to see this shame of his.



Quote

They feel they need to leave the relationship to keep the core of their identity from being destroyed. They feel they need to leave the relationship to keep from destroying the people they love the most. In their state of mind, leaving is the most kind and loving thing they can do to protect their spouse and children from the rage that is building up inside. They leave because they feel the long repressed childhood traumas coming to the surface, which many men would rather die than confront.



I think I know what he was lacking from his childhood and it makes sense now but again...the significance of that lack of closeness and comfort when he was just a little boy seem impossible to fix now. What I have suspected, that the death of his mother whom he adored is somehow the catalyst of this.



Quote

Once you know what is really going on, his desire to leave can be seen as part of the healing process. Even if he leaves, that doesn't have to be the end. Leaving can be seen as another step along the way to understand the past, reclaim the present, and build a new and better future.



I can't see him coming back..I just can't....he derives his emotional high from his work....he won't give his "drug" up to face the shame and guilt that he feels.....I suspect that he thinks he did the right thing by leaving, taking care of me financially and now that it's done....it would serve no purpose to return..somehow I think he feels I am better off without him.

This article triggered so many things for me...things that are deep within that I don't want to share here...and I doubt that my husband and I could even discuss them..and that's very very sad consider this was the most intimate relationship I have ever had....for 35 years.

[Dontgiveup]

I am not that familiar with Jed Diamond, but I think the information about shame is something we know about MLC.  This is the very first part of RCR's article on Monster.

Monster is the bursting forth of the extroverted Shadow. Everyone has a Shadow side comprised of demons, shames and fears.

How do they resolve it?  That's what Liminality is about.  Diamond refers to resolving childhood issues....which is common to all MLCers, male and female.

http://www.midlifecrisismarriageadvocate.com/mlc_overview_liminality.html

[Anjae]

Shame alone is not enough. Unless there is OW, men don't leave, no matter how much shame they may feel. At least I have never come across one who left and there was no OW.

DGU, I not so sure they solve it in Liminality, my cousin had passed the liminal depression stage and has solved nothing. At least, not yet. He is 9 months into is "awakening" from the depression and all the issues he had, his were connect with not have achieved what he thought he should and getting old, are still there.

He may still resolve his issues but it may take a while.

[Thundarr]

Hey X,

I completely understand your choice for privacy, but I am concerned whether or not you have a safe outlet for what you have pent up inside.  You mentioned that you cannot talk to your H about it and that you choose not to go into it here, but now that it has surfaced within you it cannot be denied.  I don't recall your mentioning having a therapist but I would strongly advise reaching out to one or to a trusted member of the clergy.  Remember, we have our own journey to healing to do and we serve ourselves and our spouses better by staying ahead of them in it.

Peace to you, and please get some rest as you are beginning to sound very tired from all this.

[Dontgiveup]

my cousin had passed the liminal depression stage and has solved nothing. At least, not yet.

So how do you know he has passed the liminal depression stage?

He is 9 months into is "awakening" from the depression and all the issues he had, his were connect with not have achieved what he thought he should and getting old, are still there.

How do you know he is 9 months into an "awakening".  That's pretty specific timing.

What are your thoughts on RCR's article on Liminality?

[xyzcf]

Anne J...actually, although my husband had a brief affair (lasted about 5 weeks) I wouldn't say that he left for an OW...he sent me home from a foreign country and a year later when we were supposed to move to another foreign assignment he announced he didn't want to be married to me anymore.

As far as I know there is not an OW and I don't think that's why he sent me away.

Thundaar...thanks for your concern....actually I was in therapy for about 18 months after BD. I will say that even after 34 months...I am still very very sad. I do see improvements in my mental health though, it is a gradual process but I know I am moving forward and not sliding back.

When I was in Leeds..I met some LBSers who I had met a year ago in Luxembourg and you can see the difference in us...and it is better but there is still great sadness. I still cannot see that my life will be what I want unless he comes home.....I will live well, I am happy and have many joys in my life...but I doubt this will change much as I go forward....for like so many...my family is gone...what I worked for, what I would die for is not there any more....and there is nothing I can do about it.

[Anjae]

I've been following my cousin since he become totally depressed and have been down, numb and zombie for weeks. He was brought here and I shared the same room with him for those weeks, looked after him, took him to the psychiatrist, hear him cry, hear his story.

I keep taking him to the psychiatrist since he "wake up", we’ve been there last week again. I write "wake up" because it was literally that. One Wednesday he was still totally depressed, mumbling, shaking, dead eyes, the next, after a conversation with a friend, he was much, much different. Alive again.

9 months because I know when that Thursday was and how much time has passed since. It was August, the 25th of 2011. 9 months ago.

My cousin himself says he waken up at that time, that, until then and since he had become completely depressed (overt depression) he was dead, inside and outside.

So, now, compared with what was before, both the covert and over depression, I say he is no longer depressed. And so say the psychiatrist. His antidepressants were removed a while ago. He is still agitated, and on this last appointment, the doctor gave him a very mild anti-anxiety.

Of course that he is still in transition, the doctor told us it would take about two years for him to adjust after he “wake up” and that it is possible he can be depressed again.

I think RCR article on Liminality is fine. I don’t know if it happens exactly the same way for every MCLer… I would say my cousin is in reintegration phase. But the issues are still there, unresolved. He had been talking about that with the doctor last week.

So, maybe not all MCLers solve the issues in Liminality. Or maybe I don’t call Liminality to a phase that still is Liminality. It is hard to say exactly where one phase ends and the other starts. But, for my cousin, since I was around, I’m using the differences in types of depression, behaviour, posture, and so on.

[Anjae]

xyzcf , men do not leave for OW, the leave because there is an OW, a little subtle difference, but a difference. 

Maybe MCLers are different than non MCLer men. Non MCLer men don’t leave a marriage unless there is OW. Of course that, like in everything, there are exceptions, but as a general rule, they don’t. Several men, including some that have left (or been forced to leave by the wife), all told me that: men don’t leave unless there is an OW.

Maybe your husband 5 weeks affair was his OW... They send us away a lot. Or go away themselves. And most of them say they don't want to be married anymore.

I think shame is part of the reason why they leave but not the only reason. And, of course, once they leave, more shame upon themselves they bring, the more they run and go away from us. More shame comes, and so on. It becomes a vicious circle.
 

[TrustingMyHP]

xyzcf,

Wish I could give you a hug.  I feel your sadness and share your despair of "what I worked for, what I would die for is not there any more."

This is so hard to process, so hard to accept.  You and I are both women who were into our 4th decade of marriage, with an adored daughter, when the tsunami of MLC wiped away the lives we knew and loved.  Oh hon, I have drunk those bitter dregs with you.

As you know, this past month has been the first in my "spiritual quest."  I spent six glorious days at a Benedictine abbey last week.  Through the daily prayers we recited I began "opening up space" within me in which I hope to slowly craft the framework for acceptance--which we all know is the only path out of this labyrinth of pain.

Today I returned from a women's retreat (led by Melisa Pearce, a gestalt therapist and founder of Touched By a Horse.)  She did a powerful session during the retreat on accepting that we "own" no one and can "control" no one except ourselves.  Something we all intellectually understand but few emotionally "get." 

She helped me begin to understand that when those we love are in crisis, and we have exhausted efforts to help or aid them, or they refuse our help as is the case with the MLCer, then we can only give them back to God.  For the truth is that our Beloveds belong to Him, not to us.  They are His children, not ours.

That's a hard thing to comprehend, much less accept.  But I believe it to be true. 

For whatever reason(s), God wants our H's at this time, perhaps to do work on them, perhaps to put them on a path that will bring them more in line with God's will for them, perhaps to make it possible so they can resolve the FOO issues present in most MLCers.

So He's taken them from us.

He may never give them back.  If He doesn't, I am choosing to believe it's because He has something better in store for us and for them and our children. 

I refuse to believe God is not working in my life and in my H's.  I refuse to believe God is not working in OW's life.  And I refuse to believe I will never know happiness and love again.  It may not be with my H, or even another partner, but it will be.

This experience is making us more compassionate, more humble, better friends, more present in the lives of those we love, stronger parents, and living examples to everyone who knows us, or comes in contact with us, of the courage of convictions and the willingness to suffer deeply for those we love.  Perhaps it is for those things alone that God has brought this into our lives? 

Shame is a strong emotion, terrible to feel and most challenging to handle.  I've no doubt men have a very hard time with it and that a "vicious cycle" of shame and avoidance is common among MLCers.  But I don't think that's the real reason our H's left.

I believe it's because God wants them right now--as he wants us to do the work he's put before us.

And we're doing it!

TMHP

[Trustandlove]

Hi, xy,

Part of what is happening right now is a form of cycling again; we read something, it resonates on some level, sometimes strongly, sometimes just a little, and that little panic thing starts going again.  The one that says "there is no reason for him to come back; he has everything he needs and if he's ashamed to boot, well, that's just more reason for him to stay away".  We can't let that panic thing take over. 

I know I'm not the best example, but I've thought that as well about my H -- why should he come back?  He has his perfect apartment, all the toys, company when he wants it and knows he can see the kids when he wants.  And the high of his job, and so on.   But what I HAVE seen is that despite all that, he's still cycled, looking for whatever he's looking for, thinking that this external stuff will satisfy it, and STILL finding it unsatisfactory. 

And he's still trying to make reality fit his idea, simply ignoring things that don't fit his equation, such as the effect on the children, and other things. 

I know you don't see that in your H, but that is also in large part because you don't see your H.  So much of this happens below the radar.  Heck, I didn't find out about half of it for years after it had happened and we see him regularly.  Even now, if I didn't know that OW was seriously around, I would wonder, as so much of what we do see could be interpreted as more searching. 

Regarding the leaving for an OW; it doesn't even have to be a physical OW, it could be just the one "in their head".  An OW was the catalyst for my H leaving, but it wasn't really for her, it was for the idea, one he has spent this entire time looking for.  He now claims he's found it, but even now I can see that reality isn't quite as he thought it would be.   

I see the shame thing as well; I think right now because he has based a of his self-esteem on being able to take care of everything financially, and is now finding that difficult, to add to everything else.  I can't do anything about his choosing to ignore it other than to do what I have to do for my kids. 

XY, don't let that panic take over.  Or rather, let it wash through without stopping.  We have to acknowledge each of these things and then let God and the universe do their work. 

You have been constant and consistent, that is what is needed -- that's the lighthouse.  Sometimes I find that it's hard to see that for ourselves; we see it in others, though. 

And we just have no idea of the timeline -- I know I've been told over and over again that it would be so very much longer than I ever imagined, and it's still that way.  I look back now on 2 years ago, when I thought I had "a couple of years left" and I was congratulating myself on not expecting things to turn around soon...  But turns out I still had "expectations" of a timeline, whether I admitted it or not.  Those couple of years have passed, there has been movement that I haven't liked, and it's nowhere near finished.  Those first 2 or 3 years were just the beginning. 

You have done so much; you aren't wallowing.  You are moving forward, taking every step necessary and then some.   And it's all good, great even. 

This part, too, is only one part of the puzzle.  It will all make more sense in the rear-view mirror; I know the desire to know what that will be, but that's not for us to know right now.

Keep on being the lighthouse, xy.  You are a very bright one.

x

[Moving Forward]

Hello,
This is an interesting thread - as part of my healing I receive a daily devotional from Hazelden (they are part of the AA family) and whilst I am not in recovery from an addiction I find their daily e-mails a thought provoking way to start my working day - a lot of what is advocated is good foundations for a great emotionally healthy life.

This morning I received a link to their site which is looking at..... shame. The link below helps explain a bit more and I have found it useful to read.

http://www.hazelden.org/web/public/courage_to_change_may_2012.page#Ask

[kikki]

Thank you for sharing that MF.  I can see that my H suffers from a great deal of shame, which is desperately tries to cover up through being the eveready bunny at work.

[Mitzpah]

Xyzcf,
I miss you.
I have this article printed out and filed, it resonates with me - a lot!
My h. continues to show a lot of shame - he can't even face me.
I wonder what we can do with the knowledge imparted here,  it seems there was nothing we could do...  except what we were 'shocked' into doing, which was giving them space and 'allowing' them to go.
We reassured them of our love, held back from pressuring them...

I guess we just have to let go even more, let go of what we hoped for and place our hope in God, where it should have always been.

Love

xx

[forthetrees]

This was my take and processing on the shame aspect: http://soundcloud.com/greymulder/knife-of-shame/s-eMSA6

[Dontgiveup]

RCR's article on the Shadow.

http://www.midlifecrisismarriageadvocate.com/mlc_shadow.html

[kikki]

FTT - I like it 

[LeaveThePastBehind]

You know, this article was very hard for me to digest, too. If I know anything at all, it's that H chose an Op that's like his Mom - loud, on the heavy side, and just, mom-like - something I never was.


One thing's for certain, I do not have enormous breasts like the Op so, right there, how could he ever go back to a lot less than in that and many other ways?


I don't know.

[Anjae]

Star, they tend to choose the opposite of what we were.

You need to stop beating yourself, physical features do not mean a person as more or less of what truly matter: moral fibre, strong sound values, warmness, love.

[niff naff]

Oh my goodness, this has started the tears in me again, this thread strikes so many deep deep thoughts in me, thoughts that I have had about my man, this shame would always keep him away.  He was always a Mr Fix It, someone everyone looked too, he was sensible, dependable, and a honourable man.  But like many here, now,  he runs very fast, mostly with work, almost being terrified to sit too long in case the shame settles and sticks fast.

My friend XYZ sometimes I feel that you know how I am feeling, our paths our so very similar, our  men seem to be walking the same road, but I know for sure, my man, will never stop with the running.

Hugs to you , I miss you too.

[niff naff]

Just thought about something my boy who is 14 said, I was talking about his dad, and my son said "Mum, let him go and work out what he has done in his own time, stop hoping you can push him there.

Out of babes.

[LeaveThePastBehind]

Star, they tend to choose the opposite of what we were.

You need to stop beating yourself, physical features do not mean a person as more or less of what truly matter: moral fibre, strong sound values, warmness, love.

I agree. I don't put much emphasis on the Op - this however - I have not even seen the Op in person or in pictures - I don't even think of Op, really - but my mom said they're exaggeratedly and sadly gigantic.   It doesn't really matter but I think he's loving it and I totally think he's playing out his mom issues this way.   Just like the article says. I find it odd that they usually choose the opposite of us and the op is usually like they're mom.  


I was so not like his mom.

[OnMyJourney]

..you can see the difference in us...and it is better but there is still great sadness. I still cannot see that my life will be what I want unless he comes home.....I will live well, I am happy and have many joys in my life...but I doubt this will change much as I go forward....for like so many...my family is gone...what I worked for, what I would die for is not there any more....and there is nothing I can do about it.

XYZ, this brought me to tears.  I feel the same way.

Prayers to you
OMJ

[dbpb]

The post from xyz above could have been written by me!
For all intents and purposes my life is good, but the sadness of being divorced, an unwanted divorce on my part, remains in the background.
Have been divorced long time, and ex and I get along fairly well and he seems quite comfortable around me. However he is still with OW, living together for many years, but have not married.
I know people say the best revenge is living a good life, but I do not feel that way, because I do have what I consider a good life. My best revenge would be for him and OW to break up, whether or not he would ever return to me! Since he, the OW and myself are in our mid 60's, and they have been together many years, the odds are against it.
I just cannot stand the thought that she won. I hate that I have been put in the position of having to share my kids/grandkids with this woman! Yes, it has been many years, but I am still resentful.
What do you do--you continue to get a life and move on/go on the best you can. Live like they aren't coming back--because that is what I have had to do!
It can be done.
Didn't mean to hijack this thread, but not all relationships can be reconcilled, no matter how bad you want it.

[OldPilot]

When I tell women the truth about the secret reasons men leave, it is disorienting. It shakes the foundations of their own world, how they have come to understand their own identity as a woman, wife, and mother. It also rings true for them and a lot of what has been going on makes sense and falls into place.

Seems like this is the way you interpret what Jed Diamond has said, your comments show that you are disoriented by the article.

Look at the way he finishes the article

Once you know what is really going on, his desire to leave can be seen as part of the healing process.
Even if he leaves, that doesn't have to be the end.
Leaving can be seen as another step along the way to understand the past, reclaim the present, and build a new and better future.

And finally

Finding the right guide isn't easy. Just because a person has the right credential doesn't mean they've been over this territory enough to guide others.
Be tenacious. Be creative. Be willing to make mistakes.
But never give up.

I have to admit I think a lot of Jed Diamond, I have read a few of his books and believe it or not they speak to me.
More about the way I feel and my own journey.
Of course I am a man.
Not in a mid life crisis but certainly in the middle or later middle of my life.

I believe this article is spot on and fits in with what I have learned about the way we pick our spouses.
The childhood wounds are real.
I think even for healthy males (can I say like myself?) they ring true.

I guess the only thing its seems like JD is saying is

TRUST THE PROCESS.

[superdog]

Hi old pilot,

So sorry to hijack, but would be very grateful if you could read my original thread and let me have the benefit of your thoughts.

I haven't heard from stayed in a while and I'm a bit disorientated.

I loved this article and agree with your final comment.

Sd x

[Sassyone]

I agree with OP.  I think a lot of Jed Diamond and have read a lot of his articles, etc.  I think he gives a great perspective from a males point of view.  My H reads him too and agrees. 

Men in MLC are really really dealing with a lot of shame, FOO issues (usually their mothers) and they turn away from their spouses.  Their OW are usually the exact opposite of us and more like their mother's.  They are looking for nurturing that they were denied or didn't receive.

For example, H's OW is shorter, dark hair, smaller boy body frame.  I am tall, blonde hair, big you know whats . . . we are total opposites.  She resembles more of H's family and his mother . . . she tried to take care of everything for him, just like his mom does for his dad still to this dad (ewww not my type of relationship). 

I think if you re-read Jed's article you can clearly see that MLC is all about them with very little to do about us.  Of course we can all better ourselves and our marriages and that's great and we should, but when you break it down, they are regressing in time to fix issues in their childhood, usually abondment issues, lack of maternal love, not feeling good enough or able to show emotions, abuse, the list can go on and on.  The same can be said about female MLC, I just honestly believe females are less likely to have affairs to medicate themselves.

Jed says it best:  Be tenacious. Be creative. Be willing to make mistakes.
But never give up.

Hugs,

Sassy

[Dontgiveup]

Men in MLC are really really dealing with a lot of shame, FOO issues (usually their mothers) and they turn away from their spouses.

I understand Jed Diamond writes about men....but women in MLC are dealing with the same thing.  The bursting forth of the Shadow......the shame and fear that is MLC.

I think if you re-read Jed's article you can clearly see that MLC is all about them with very little to do about us.  Of course we can all better ourselves and our marriages and that's great and we should, but when you break it down, they are regressing in time to fix issues in their childhood, usually abondment issues, lack of maternal love, not feeling good enough or able to show emotions, abuse, the list can go on and on.

I very much agree.......childhood issues and regression. 

The same can be said about female MLC, I just honestly believe females are less likely to have affairs to medicate themselves.

I am not sure if women in MLC are less likely to have affairs or not, but my friend and I are both convinced (because of our own situations I'm sure) that women in MLC are more likely than male MLCers to divorce.....or at least divorce quickly.

[Sideways]

XYZ-
Thanks so much for sharing this article...WOW...It sure resonated with me and seems right on with my H.  I have said a few tomes , that I felt, H felt, that I abandoned (emotionally) him...like his mom did as a child.  It was so helpful to read this.

I agree with others here...I think you are wore out...and it catches up.  Then we cycle..

I see you as such a woman of strong faith X...I think you ARE a light in the darkness of your H's storm.  You have grown so much!!  You are a strong woman, just not always able to see that you are!

Love and Light - S

[Trustandlove]

This is something I think about a lot, and have written about from many angles....  for years, for most of this crisis I have wondered what on earth could have been missing for my H, as he had parents who loved him and showed it. 

My MIL wasn't a cold and uncaring person.  But perhaps his being the apple of her eye had another side.  My MIL, despite being affectionate and always having dinner on the table, etc., perhaps wasn't able to do the taking care of in other ways.  For instance, she never learned to drive, so always depended on FIL (or perhaps for a short time before he went to university, H) to drive her place.  Of course she used the buses well, but still.    That's just one example. 

So in some ways MIL needed taking care of herself, and perhaps that came through in that she wasn't able to take care of H more.  Not that she didn't take care of H -- that is why this seems so convoluted to me.  Perhaps he just needed, or THOUGHT he needed, more than she could give.  She wouldn't have been the one to exhaustively research educational things, for example, of one of her children needed something special.

I'm the opposite -- I'm the super-fixer.  Medical problem?  I'll know more than the doctors before long.  And so on.  Kids' education?  I'll look at more schools than anyone else.  I'm overdoing it a bit here, but I think you know what I mean.  I'm not helpless; she, despite being loving and kind, was always a bit so.  Or at least I got that impression. 

I may be grasping at straws here; I know this is a big part of it for H, just still not sure exactly how.  I know that once, in the first year after he left, when I was very ill, he told me that I had become ill because I wanted him to take care of me.  So somewhere there he was rebelling against that bit, I guess he wanted to be taken care of more, but of course he won't let me do so. 

I have no idea what this OW is like so I don't know where she fits on this scale; does she do that kind of taking care of?  Is that the idea, is that what they are looking for?  I can see where I and the kids just represent things HE needs to do to take care of people; does she ask for nothing?  I see I'm not making a lot of sense here; I'm working this out in writing.

Anyway, very interesting topic. 

[honour]

I just honestly believe females are less likely to have affairs to medicate themselves.

Why do you believe this?

honour

[xyzcf]

I saw this on PBS last night..it is on depression and the circuits of the brain that can now actually be examined...very interesting and I think pertainent to what we are dealing with in our MLCers

http://www.charlierose.com/view/interview/12380?sponsor_id=1

[Sassyone]

I just honestly believe females are less likely to have affairs to medicate themselves.

Why do you believe this?

honour

Through reading on depression and MLC.  Women tend to withdraw from their lives.  Men use sex (yes women do too, but not nearly as much) to make themselves feel better or more vital.  I just watched the Charlie Rose episode on depression . . . it is very, very informative.

Hugs,

Sassy

[kikki]

That is very interesting, thanks for posting xyzcf

[Stillpraying]

Here's another article which discusses the impact of how we treat our children early in life..

http://www.compleatmother.com/articles2/why_men_leave.htm

[forthetrees]

http://news.yahoo.com/study-ties-troubled-sleep-lower-brain-volume-190346074.html

My ex had major insomnia before BD.

[onlyjo]

FTT
mine too.  he didn't sleep for years! 

i can't help but wonder, though, if this is a sort of cart vs. horse thing, though...
depression causes insomnia, or insomnia causes depression...
or MLC...

i wonder if there are studies out there that link the correlation between insomnia and cortisol...i attended a lecture on cortisol production last year, and it was eye-opening.  too much of that stuff will really mess you up.  and that's what (i think) many MLCers run on for long periods of time...cortisol, and guilt. 

sigh. 
take care
onlyjo

[Searching4Answers]

Mine too!

He still doesn't sleep well; wakes up around 4:00am. he says he hasn't had a good nights sleep since he stopped drinking (16 years ago)

[kikki]

forthetrees, the fact that my H couldn't sleep prior to BD was apparently my fault, and his one major reason for having to leave me.

Sadly for him, his troubled sleep continues 3.5 years later.

i wonder if there are studies out there that link the correlation between insomnia and cortisol

I think this is another of those circular things.  Too much stress raises cortisol and upsets our sleep amongst other things - and not enough sleep raises our cortisol levels.

[onlyjo]

hi Kikki
yes--totally agree--it's all a big mess, inside their bodies and their minds.  the unfortunate part is that their "mess" affects many, many people--which came first, the chicken or the egg?  and does it really matter?

how are you?  when i first found this site (which i truly believe has been a primary resource in getting me to where i am today--which is a good place...) i read all your posts because i had a clinger too.  my clinger has "unclung" somewhat, but still boomerangs...

just wanted to say thanks for your wisdom and insight.
onlyjo

[kikki]

Hi onlyjo
You're right - it's so sad how their crisis affects so many people - the ripple effects just keep on and on

My clinger has had a change in behaviour too.  We still have a lot of contact because of running the business together, but his obsession with me and being around me is waning.
It kind of reminds me of the very early days where even though I saw him every day, he wouldn't come within a four meter radius of me (it was as though I was on fire and he was terrified of me).

Not sure what is happening, and I am reading between the lines, but I suspect he is waking up ever so slightly and can see that his insistence on living his new life and seeing so much of me is just bizarre.
So in recent months, he has not been spending large amounts of time hanging around my house. This means he sees even less of the boys too.

Where to next, I do not know.  Hope you're doing okay too. I don't know what I would have done without finding this forum either 

[kikki]

http://depression180.com/terry-real/

[UKStander]

I've got to find the time to listen to this, Kiki.  I'm a BIG fan of Real's I Don't Want to Talk About It. It goes to the very root causes of mlc like no other book. But be warned, once you read it, you will realise just what your spouse is up against on the road to complete healing. ALL self-esteem props must be dropped. That buried pain must come forth.

I think sometimes it's like a boil. Unless you get the puss out, you're never going to get full healing of the wound. Don't take back a half-healed mlc-er!   

[Anjae]

Don't take back a half-healed mlc-er!   

But many of us will take back, if not a half-healed MLCer, at least one that is not fully cooked. They return broken.

Regarding male depression, my issue with it is that the MLCers I know were quite capable of taking about their feellings (and far better than I am capable of taking about mine), knew how to aks for what they need, knew they were depressed, some even told their so to their doctor and spouse (like mine) and still, they did not nothing about it.

So, for me the problem is not so much that we, or the depressed male, cannot identify that depression is present, but that nothing is done to solve the issue. Therefore leading to all the destruction we have to deal with.

Sorry Kikki, but I have read and listen to tons of stuff about male depression,  yet no one seems to know how to solve it. At least not when it is reaching MLC point. And, at least now, I want solutions. We already know what make depression is and what causes it. Time for someone to come up with a way of mitigate the damages.

[xyzcf]

Thanks Kikki for sharing this link.

Newbies may not be aware of Terrence Real's book on male depression. An excellent resource to read to help understand what depression can be like.

Anjae stated:

Regarding male depression, my issue with it is that the MLCers I know were quite capable of taking about their feellings (and far better than I am capable of taking about mine), knew how to aks for what they need, knew they were depressed, some even told their so to their doctor and spouse (like mine) and still, they did not nothing about it.

My husband was totally opposite Anjae. He never, and still does not talk about his feelings nor would he ever ask for "help". He never told me that he is depressed and I doubt he told his physician for he has never been treated wither with medication or any kind of therapy.

[Anjae]

My husband was totally opposite Anjae. He never, and still does not talk about his feelings nor would he ever ask for "help". He never told me that he is depressed and I doubt he told his physician for he has never been treated wither with medication or any kind of therapy.

I know many men don't speak about it. At least not with their wives. They may, or may not do it with male friends and their doctor. The thing that confuses me is that it does not seem to make a difference it the male MLCer talked or did not talked about his feelings, said or did not said he was depressed.

My cousin who had MLC also talked about his feeling and it was clear to everyone he was depressed. Including to his brother and male friends. Did it prevent his MLC? No, it did not. Even if my cousin's MLC was benign for the patters we deal with here. No OW, no leaving his job, no loosing his home. Just more and more anger, anxiety, then very dark depression and rock bottom.

To my horror, dear xyzcf, I become quite capable of identify male depression, even on male acquaintances just by seeing/reading what they post on their FB walls.

ps - Sorry Kikki, I did not wanted to sound rude. I'm glad you posted the link. It really is that I want the solutions for an already identified issue and I can't find them anywhere.

[kikki]

Anjae - I hear your frustration.

The audio is on male depression, not male MLC.
A far more extreme beast altogether.

It really is that I want the solutions for an already identified issue and I can't find them anywhere.

Sure, we know about this stuff, but I don't know that many people out there have any idea about this information. Including the MC that I managed to get my H to see a few times with me. She had absolutely no idea.

There is that psychiatrist in the UK (can't remember his name) that I posted the audio for a while ago.  He said that the biggest initial clue to male depression was the silence and the withdrawal, then came the agitation and anger.  He is hoping to educate youngsters about this, so that they can get help early, and also accept help (if male).  Guess we will have to wait and see if having that knowledge makes a difference.

At the time, with my H, I had no clue at all what the silence meant. I knew it wasn't good, but had no idea what was about to hit us.

[hobo1]

I really don't believe in any difference between male and female.  It is individual specific.

My xW is incapable of expressing her feelings. Always had been like that.  Not an MLC thing.  In thinking about it, a couple of years before BD, I think she started feeling depressed.  She never said it to me, and has denied it.  But she was never enthusiastic, never.  Never wanted to talk, never excited, never really wanted to do anything.  Never wanted to make any effort.  Never affectionate.  I never thought anything was wrong, but we mirror each other...  I became bored with and frustrated with her emotionless attitude.  I thought it was just life...  but it's not.  It's not normal.  She didnt make friends, I'm sure she was lonely.  She never opened up to me, and I didn't try too hard to make her.

Now she is all excited about going on dates with OM....  i think it was depression...  now, not sure...  perhaps it's masked depression, perhaps not...  I just know she attributed the depressed feelings with me....  they say men deal with depression differently because they have less of a support system....  this goes for my xw...  so yea...  men and women depression, probably the same.

[kikki]

Hobo, you're also talking about MLC, not 'just' depression.

Did you listen to his audio?  More women display 'classical' depression symptoms, but men can do so as well - just not as many as women. 
A higher percentage of depressed men show covert, acting out symptoms, but that doesn't mean that some women won't display this version of it.

He believes it needs to have it's own category in the DSM.
I would agree with him.

[Anjae]

The audio is on male depression, not male MLC.
A far more extreme beast altogether.

I know, Kikki.

Well, for me MLC is a far more extreme beast. Mr J had been depressed twice years before MLC. It was pretty easy to know he was depressed, he accepted to see a doctor and follow doctors orders. There was never any devastation, no OW, nothing like MLC. Mr J was treated for is two pre-MLC depression, was fine after it. It did not prevent his MLC.

When he had is normal depression he did not really become more silent, he simply was dead, no energy, nothing. Juts like normal female depression. Same for my brother who suffers from depression, it is like female one. Same for many other men I know.

So not all men react to normal, non MLC depression, the way Terrence Real says. And some women will do what he says men do, like me.

I'm a bit with Hobo and a bit with you, TR and the English psychiatrist on this one. It depends of the person, be it male or female. In males, given their higher levels of testosterone, it is natural that it may escalate to anger at a point. But the silence is not always there before the anger. It was not there for Mr J. I cannot recall a single moment when he become more into himself, I only recall the agitation and anger.

Since I had seen his normal depression I know it was not like MLC one.

In the Drugs and the Brain course and other neuroscience courses I took we were always told thatmale depression could have different symptoms than female one.

Don't see the need for its own category on DMS. Epilepsy is epilepsy even if it has many different levels and shows in different ways. Depression is depression.

What I would like to see on DMS is MLC.

[kikki]

What I would like to see on DMS is MLC.

Oh yeah -  I am looking forward to that day too.
Now, how to get a MLCer to see a psychiatrist? - and then we might start getting some action .......

[Anjae]

Oh yeah -  I am looking forward to that day too.
Now, how to get a MLCer to see a psychiatrist? - and then we might start getting some action .......

Think only when they hit rock bottom... or if we use a tranquilizer dart, then tie the MLCer and deliver it to the psychiatrist...  Problem? Would the psychiatrist be aware of MLC? Neurologists/neuroscientists seem to be more aware of it...

[Ready2Transform]

Oh yeah -  I am looking forward to that day too.
Now, how to get a MLCer to see a psychiatrist? - and then we might start getting some action .......

Think only when they hit rock bottom... or if we use a tranquilizer dart, then tie the MLCer and deliver it to the psychiatrist...  Problem? Would the psychiatrist be aware of MLC? Neurologists/neuroscientists seem to be more aware of it...

I like the idea of tranquilizing truth darts.  Kills two birds with one stone! 

Throw in endocrinologist and naturopath as possible allies, too (Plus zoologist, if we attribute it to bat$h!te craziness.  ).  The solutions pose yet more questions - it all comes down to what the real source of this is - and there may be just as many answers to that as there are MLCers. 

[Anjae]

I like the idea of tranquilizing truth darts.  Kills two birds with one stone! 

Loved it. 

Throw in endocrinologist and naturopath as possible allies, too (Plus zoologist, if we attribute it to bat$hit craziness.  ).  The solutions pose yet more questions - it all comes down to what the real source of this is - and there may be just as many answers to that as there are MLCers.

Endocrinologist for sure. And maybe many naturopath will be up to help us out. Bat$hit craziness is certain so, lets enroll some zoologist. 

Yes, I can picture, all these people, plus us LBS, in a members only club, around and old table full of books, tablets and computers open in the latest articles of n subjects, all debating the source of MLC and its possible solutions.

All of course, tempered with fine beverages and amazing food. 

[kikki]

Now you're talking 

Well, as some people are starting to believe - Depression is a symptom, with many potential causes.

Perhaps MLC will one day be believed to be the symptom, of which there were many potential root causes, as you say Ready2.

Craig Meriwether
The 4 Real Causes of Depression
 
There seems to be a popular notion that depression can be explained simply and easily, that depression is due to a biochemical disparity in the brain and by finding the right pill or combination of pills it will go away. However, the origins of depression are not that clear cut. No two people, even if they have the same exact symptoms, will have the same imbalances causing their depression. Research has shown that there are four very different, underlying causes of depression and in this episode I’m going to take you through each in detail.
 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JOvAyAv70eQ
(I haven't watched these clips, but the link to his audio has expired)

[Anjae]

Tink this link has what would be on the video and more

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/happiness-in-world/200910/the-true-cause-depression

But for me some depression do have biochemical and hormonal reasons and not the other way round. Thyroid being one case. It is the thyroid problems that cause the depression and not the depression that causes the thyroid problems.

Saying that depression is a symptom and not the cause is like saying cancer is a symptom and not the cause. In cancer the cause could be said to be that some cells went rogue and stop working towards the common good.

I agree that depression always has a reason but not that "I would argue that depression arises at its core from a belief that we're powerless to solve our problems.". in some cases yes, but not always.

PND is real and caused by reasons other than psychological. The trend to see depression as nothing but a "you're depressed because you want" is, in my view, dangerous. It can lead to further stigma and make people feel even more inadequate.

[kikki]

Nope - just watching it now.
He says we all understand the mind/body link, they communicate to each other and  are more like one system rather than two individual parts.
Depression is the mind's way of getting your attention.
No good or bad emotions.  All valid. Problem occurs when they become stuck and start looping, and it becomes your 'set point'.
When anger, grief, pain become your normal, you have a problem.  Like an indication light in your car that there is some difficulty with the engine.

You don't want to cover up the light with a piece of duct tape.  You want to find the cause, fix it and move on.
He believes that taking a pill is the piece of duct tape and is not looking at the causes.

He writes his books from the latest science research.

There hasn't found to be a depression gene, but scientists perhaps wonder about a genetic 'predisposition' that needs to be triggered in some way (because of studies done on identical twins who were separated at birth.  When one suffers depression, the other twin has a 67% chance of also suffering from it).

eg - Scientists have discovered a gene 5HTT - which can affect your brain's ability to create serotonin - but ONLY after it has been triggered by a very stressful event.

Serotonin - neurotransmitter - brain chemical - has a lot of different functions, deals with digestion, immune system and helps you get in a positive mood.

Dr Daniel Amen says that being diagnosed with depression is like being diagnosed with chest pain.  There are a multitude of potential reasons for the pain.

Four causes of depression:

1) Physiology - such as illness, hypothyroidism, nutrient deficiencies, food allergies, food additives, head injury, low testosterone.

2)  Medications, Drugs and toxins - Prescription medications, recreational drugs, chemicals, heavy metals

3)  Emotional trauma

4)  Automatic Negative thoughts

[Ready2Transform]

Four causes of depression:

1) Physiology - such as illness, hypothyroidism, nutrient deficiencies, food allergies, food additives, head injury, low testosterone.

2)  Medications, Drugs and toxins - Prescription medications, recreational drugs, chemicals, heavy metals

3)  Emotional trauma

4)  Automatic Negative thoughts

Impossible to not look at this list and not think instead of being a list of 4 possibilities, it's seemingly the recipe for MLC - all happening at once! 

[Anjae]

Problem occurs when they become stuck and start looping, and it becomes your 'set point'.
When anger, grief, pain become your normal, you have a problem.  Like an indication light in your car that there is some difficulty with the engine.

Yes but get stuck and starting looping is not valid for depression caused by thyroid, PND or any other condition that does derive from feelings/thoughts. It is rooted in clear physical/body issues.

You don't want to cover up the light with a piece of duct tape.  You want to find the cause, fix it and move on.

He believes that taking a pill is the piece of duct tape and is not looking at the causes.

Of course not but often therapists and doctors tell people what is the cause of their depression (thoughts, life style) and nothing changes. When people don't want to listen they don't listen. Or people cannot afford to do those changes.

Also, at a point, the thoughts/feelings had already caused a big imbalance in several body/brain areas so it is no longer possible to simply reverse the thoughts/feeling because further damage had been caused.

Sometimes one has to take the pill. Even if to just balance things to a point one can start functioning again. It happend with my cousin and it happened with me. But there is a big difference between taking a pill for a short period of time and take it forever/ages.

We have to take in consideration that most people simply cannot check out of their lives and go and live in a paradise. So, for some, the pill is what is going to keep them above water.

What is the reason/cause is it modern life? Or the stresses of the marriage (and yes, marriages can be stressful)? Or the job? How do you solve those? MLCers way?...

Yes, a predisposition for depression makes sense and is believed to exist. There is no single gene for a single cause/thing. It is always a group of genes/several genes. Like with all predisposition it requires a trigger.

Dr Daniel Amen says that being diagnosed with depression is like being diagnosed with chest pain.  There are a multitude of potential reasons for the pain.

Yes but there is nothing new with it. At least around here doctors always (by always I mean in the latest decades) tried to know why someone is depressed/caused the depression. If no other health issues are present it usually is the lifestyle/the way people think.

Yet we keep having more and more depressed people even if doctors had been aware that there are several causes for depression and even what to do. Somehow it does not seem to work and depression levels just increase. Why?

And the same goes to MLC. It is often possible to see that someone is unwell, they even say they are depressed, took some med, tried to change their lifestyle but the crisis still hit them. And there was nothing one could do.

True, Ready2 but how do you reverse those? How do we change that and prevent the MLC from happening? You've had one yourself. I most likely also had one. Was there anything that could had stop it?

Probably, for me, a quieter lifestyle since BD but, well, BD and what come with it did not lead to a quieter life.

[kikki]

Four causes of depression:

1) Physiology - such as illness, hypothyroidism, nutrient deficiencies, food allergies, food additives, head injury, low testosterone.

2)  Medications, Drugs and toxins - Prescription medications, recreational drugs, chemicals, heavy metals

3)  Emotional trauma

4)  Automatic Negative thoughts

Impossible to not look at this list and not think instead of being a list of 4 possibilities, it's seemingly the recipe for MLC - all happening at once!

That's a very very interesting thought .....

[osb]

Fascinating topic, kikki et al. I think the medical community (such as it is) pretty much knows the concept of MLC - but given the pop associations with that phrase (red car, fast women, big joke), they don't bother to use the term. Instead we get 'situational depression', 'dysphoria', 'life transition' etc etc...

I think all depression is rooted in body issues, Anjae. We are a bundle of electricity and chemicals, at our most basic. There isn't a distinction between physical and mental at the cellular level. Hormonally-triggered depression (post-partum, thyroid etc) isn't privileged over what we may consider 'essential' or psychological depression. The former group has additional problems to solve, outside the brain itself. But inside, the same morass.

That depression more commonly presents in men as anger and agitation is well described. There may be no classical 'depressive' symptoms at all - no sadness, no hopelessness, no torpor. Just madly revving the gears with a wheel slipped loose, and a fierce anger. Not every major depression seems to require (or responds to) AD's or other drugs; as not everyone responds to counselling. Some depressions seem to run their full course despite all, and like a psychotic break, run through the depressive's entire stock of neurotransmitters to leave them a burnt out blank slate.

FWIW this is the picture I saw in my H. And he's (like me) a member of the medical world. However he's had a life-long fear/loathing of mental illness - his parents are definitely personality-disordered, so there's been a lot of what I say I hate, won't happen to me magical thinking going on. Still, a recognizable major depression disguised as anger. Since H's mental state has (spontaneously) improved, the gear-slipped racing has slowed, and he's become capable of some self-reflection. A few weeks ago he actually spoke about it (mind you, he was very sleepy, and immediately upon waking up, promptly denied this had anything to do with him!). Said "You know, all the years I worked in ER I thought people with mental health issues were just losers. And now that i've been there... i still think: just losers". Loser - that's the label he gives himself now. But to me, these sentences were a small insight into his MLC mental journey.

[kikki]

Yes but get stuck and starting looping is not valid for depression caused by thyroid, PND or any other condition that does derive from feelings/thoughts. It is rooted in clear physical/body issues.

Anjae -Have to be honest here - I'm struggling to understand your thinking.

the stuck thoughts and looping would most likely be due to 3 or 4
and the thyroid and PND due to reason number 1
with possible physiological changes due to reason 2 as well

[osb]

FWIW, they now have developed rat models of mental health automatisms - there's one with obsessive compulsive disorder, for example!!! (it's actually characterized in impressive detail, few neurotransmitters awry resulting in little mice running in circles shredding their own skins with their claws... toxically sad, actually).

Given my H started his MLC with a mad burst of OCD behaviours, i thought this was fascinating to read about in a biological sense. Though it gave me the creeps.

All psychology is ultimately biological, in my humble view.

[kikki]

That depression more commonly presents in men as anger and agitation is well described. There may be no classical 'depressive' symptoms at all - no sadness, no hopelessness, no torpor. Just madly revving the gears with a wheel slipped loose, and a fierce anger.

That is the most perfect description osb.  'madly revving the gears with a wheel slipped loose, and a fierce anger'

So happy to hear that your H's gear-slipped racing has improved and he is capable of some reflection. 

All psychology is ultimately biological, in my humble view.

I would humbly agree with you osb

[Anjae]

Sorry Kikki, I think I did not wrote it clear enough, or may have misunderstood something. 

All psychology is ultimately biological, in my humble view.

Also in mine.

Your husband still thinks people with mental issues are just losers, OSB?... 

Must confess that for me, until not that long ago, it was addicts. They were nothing more than losers who did not want to change. Then the brother of my cousin who had MLC start to tell me about nicotine and the brain and I end up doing those Coursera neuroscience and genetic short courses.

[kikki]

all on the same page then 

[Anjae]

all on the same page then 

Yes 

[SSG]

I should have seen it coming, being my father was a Clinical Psychologist, worked a lot with the courts, specialized in child abuse cases.  I think it was all too up-close and personal in my sitch .  Blind I was. 

I spent many hours looking at his DSM each time a new version came out. H faced emotional trauma at age 7...
death of father.  No predisposition for depression evident in his family. Perhaps from fathers side...no contact with that part of the family for 55 years.  Possibly then.

Thyroid problems are genetically evident in his family (H, MIL, GMIL) as well
as low blood pressure...making him tired and his body temperature always low, he complained about being cold.

Due to the thyroid issue, he would get mad at the most stupid things, explode and then it was
over in a matter of minutes.  Same for his mother and stories I heard about his grandmother. And if he went three days without the thyroid suppliments...you saw it in words and action.

I was the one who suggested he take something to calm him down.  I was the one who suggested the Prozac......OH, had I only known what was coming down the road, never, ever would have done that.   I had a dog with OCD (working with Tufts Univ. and Dr Dodman...we used Prozac)  Where my idea came from.  Helped the dog lead a somewhat normal life.

The explosive episodes were nearly non-existant now.
Then came the low testosterone...followed by ED (6 yrs ago)
Caused by the prozac and thyroids?

Then the thyroids were removed (4 yrs ago) ...H had trouble adjusting to the meds.
He was constantly tired, no energy, he was frustrated as he was a physically active person. 
He slept alot,  waking up at 10 and then 3 hours later, taking a nap for 2 hours.
 
Then came my malignant tumor, loss of a kidney and tax problems.

6 months later....OW and the Affair began.

The year before BD he was addicted to Angry Birds on his phone, did not see it as escape...but it was right in front of me.
 He told me he thinks he is depressed. BD..said he is having a MLC.

Now the problems are piling up, financially.  He cannot deal with it anymore.  Looks like it followed him there (paradise did not live up to its name)

What will he do? Not the suicide type.  He has become the rabbit in the
hole.  But rock bottom is around the corner.  He will bring me down with him, unfortunately.
Do I offer a suggestion that will save us or keep my mouth shut? 

He has 3 of the 4 causes of depression...No 4 I never saw.
I would love to talk to my father but he passed away 5 years ago.

[hobo1]

Fascinating topic.  This would make a great research paper....  If only it wasn't all so personal.

I've had a pretty traumatic childhood, my father and mother both passed away when I was 8 and 9.  I'm sure that has some impact on how I am...  Perhaps I am also prone to MLC.  I don't believe I've experienced real clinical depression.... despite xW's MLC mess.

As far as xW goes...  She has every symptom of an Avoidant Personality Disorder.  I've known her for 23 years, and am so surprised at myself that i didn't realize it.  I knew she was shy, and perhaps a little immature...  but to have EVERY symptom.  I didn't realize until BD, and I started to do some research.

Her family also has a history of thyroid disease.  No one that I knew of had MLC though...  She was emotionally abandoned by her mother at an early age...  was very passive aggressive, had this avoidant personality...  felt bored...  stay at home mom, perimenopausal etc....

I guess it is all just a perfect combination.

[SSG]

Fascinating topic.  This would make a great research paper....  If only it wasn't all so personal.

I've had a pretty traumatic childhood, my father and mother both passed away when I was 8 and 9.  I'm sure that has some impact on how I am...  Perhaps I am also prone to MLC.  I don't believe I've experienced real clinical depression.... despite xW's MLC mess.

As far as xW goes...  She has every symptom of an Avoidant Personality Disorder.  I've known her for 23 years, and am so surprised at myself that i didn't realize it.  I knew she was shy, and perhaps a little immature...  but to have EVERY symptom.  I didn't realize until BD, and I started to do some research.

Her family also has a history of thyroid disease.  No one that I knew of had MLC though...  She was emotionally abandoned by her mother at an early age...  was very passive aggressive, had this avoidant personality...  felt bored...  stay at home mom, perimenopausal etc....

I guess it is all just a perfect combination.

There goes "thyroid" again...I never thought it was connected to depression!  Hobo, I read somewhere that when a death in the family happens before the age of 10...you can almost count on it, in their adult life, a MLC will occur.    I think the author called them Chaos Kids.  I found it...Larry Bilotta. Here is the link. where he explains his theory.
http://www.marriage-success-secrets.com/

So you and W both had tragedies in your family before the age of 10.  Coupled with thyroid problems.

SSG

[hobo1]

Fascinating topic.  This would make a great research paper....  If only it wasn't all so personal.

I've had a pretty traumatic childhood, my father and mother both passed away when I was 8 and 9.  I'm sure that has some impact on how I am...  Perhaps I am also prone to MLC.  I don't believe I've experienced real clinical depression.... despite xW's MLC mess.

As far as xW goes...  She has every symptom of an Avoidant Personality Disorder.  I've known her for 23 years, and am so surprised at myself that i didn't realize it.  I knew she was shy, and perhaps a little immature...  but to have EVERY symptom.  I didn't realize until BD, and I started to do some research.

Her family also has a history of thyroid disease.  No one that I knew of had MLC though...  She was emotionally abandoned by her mother at an early age...  was very passive aggressive, had this avoidant personality...  felt bored...  stay at home mom, perimenopausal etc....

I guess it is all just a perfect combination.

There goes "thyroid" again...I never thought it was connected to depression!  Hobo, I read somewhere that when a death in the family happens before the age of 10...you can almost count on it, in their adult life, a MLC will occur.    I think the author called them Chaos Kids.  I found it...Larry Bilotta. Here is the link. where he explains his theory.
http://www.marriage-success-secrets.com/

So you and W both had tragedies in your family before the age of 10.  Coupled with thyroid problems.

SSG

Yes, I read about chaos kid....  I actually had a session with Larry Bilotta.

OK, I'm waiting for my MLC...  or perhaps I am having one now?

[LettingGo]

Throwing my theory into the ring....Recently read a book called "Grain Brain" by a neurosurgeon who purports that almost all people have a sensitivty to wheat and other grains....also, to prescription medications such as Lipitor, a commonly prescribed cholesterol lowering drug whose side effects include DEPRESSION, ERECTILE DYSFUNCTION and HEART ATTACK.....

AD's list SUICIDAL THOUGHTS as a possible side effect, yet Americans take these pharmaceuticals daily for various "conditions" and coupled with poor nutrition, or the nutrition altering effect of these drugs, it's no wonder that brain scans show reduced or abnormal function when these elements are introduced....the depression leads to alcohol which is a depressant, LOL!!

I've begged my husband to stop taking his cholesterol meds....he's been on them for years and the ED started soon after getting on them now that I think of it....but he is scared he will have a heart attack if he quits! In no way am I discounting the FOO issues and loss as triggers for MLC, but I wonder how rampant this would be in the absence of pharmaceuticals and the Western diet....

[kikki]

Four causes of depression:

1) Physiology - such as illness, hypothyroidism, nutrient deficiencies, food allergies, food additives, head injury, low testosterone.

2)  Medications, Drugs and toxins - Prescription medications, recreational drugs, chemicals, heavy metals

3)  Emotional trauma

4)  Automatic Negative thoughts

Impossible to not look at this list and not think instead of being a list of 4 possibilities, it's seemingly the recipe for MLC - all happening at once!

That's a very very interesting thought .....

LG - I would agree with you about the western diet (1), stress(I guess that would be under number 1, as we know understand that stress has a direct physiological effect on your body), medication(2) etc.  It definitely is supported by the latest science research, and as Ready2 said earlier, it's a possibility that MLC is the perfect storm of all of these above, coming together at once.

They know that emotional trauma under a certain age, rewires the brain. 

Add to that FOO issues where our MLCers were more often than not left to compartmentalise their hurt and be left to deal with it alone without the help from adults to make sense of it - once they get to mid life and they suffer an emotional shock/loss (death of a parent, illness of a spouse, loss of a job) - they have nothing left to cope with. 

[toughtimes]

Said "You know, all the years I worked in ER I thought people with mental health issues were just losers. And now that i've been there... i still think: just losers". Loser - that's the label he gives himself now.

Osb, this bears out Terry Real's assertion that men are programmed to not recognise mental health issues and therefore get help.

All psychology is ultimately biological, in my humble view.

I agree. I have suffered with reactive depression and hormonal depression on and off all my adult life. It hasn't stopped me working or living well, but I look back and I understand why I reacted in ways that I did. I had a head injury as a child and have since discovered that may have caused damage to the pituitary gland, a possible explanation?

Four causes of depression:

1) Physiology - such as illness, hypothyroidism, nutrient deficiencies, food allergies, food additives, head injury, low testosterone.

2)  Medications, Drugs and toxins - Prescription medications, recreational drugs, chemicals, heavy metals

3)  Emotional trauma

4)  Automatic Negative thoughts

Impossible to not look at this list and not think instead of being a list of 4 possibilities, it's seemingly the recipe for MLC - all happening at once!

That's a very very interesting thought .....

LG - I would agree with you about the western diet (1), stress(I guess that would be under number 1, as we know understand that stress has a direct physiological effect on your body), medication(2) etc.  It definitely is supported by the latest science research, and as Ready2 said earlier, it's a possibility that MLC is the perfect storm of all of these above, coming together at once.

They know that emotional trauma under a certain age, rewires the brain. 

Add to that FOO issues where our MLCers were more often than not left to compartmentalise their hurt and be left to deal with it alone without the help from adults to make sense of it - once they get to mid life and they suffer an emotional shock/loss (death of a parent, illness of a spouse, loss of a job) - they have nothing left to cope with. 

It really is the perfect storm for our MLCers.

This is interesting, in 2008, after we moved and when I think my Hs crisis started. It was then that H started to develop a wheat intolerance, he had been baking lots of bread and adding more yeast !!!  And so he figured that had triggered an intolerance, his mother starting suffering with the same thing, a kind of irritable bowel syndrome. H is wheat free and has been for at least four years. His diet is better than ever, I never saw him eat salads or soups and now that is all he eats. He also eats a calorie controlled curry every Tuesday when he stays here  .
He has lost loads of weight and runs and swims pretty much every day. His ow is a "recovering" anorexic. Does anyone have any ideas about whether this drastic change in diet and lifestyle could cause more problems for my H at his age?
I mean, in some ways it is a positive change, more vegetables and less fat (he was always very fond of meat and ale and said he hoped to get gout one day just like his high living ebullient friend he started the business with!) ... gives you an idea of the contrast I am seeing.

[kikki]

He has lost loads of weight and runs and swims pretty much every day. His ow is a "recovering" anorexic. Does anyone have any ideas about whether this drastic change in diet and lifestyle could cause more problems for my H at his age?

Your H sounds like mine.  He too has made big dietary changes.
We always ate well, but he goes through phases of eliminating meat and alcohol and coffee.  He binged on coffee and alcohol at BD and afterwards.

I wonder if it's something that they can control when so much of their life is so out of control.

Different people have different ideas on the meat vs grain vs ....... way of eating.
The latest research seems to show that calorie restriction leads to a healthier body and longer life.

[Ready2Transform]

I think it falls into the same category as the (majority of?) MLCers who take up running or fitness in some way.  In general, it's something that is a healthy habit for anyone, but in the scope of MLC becomes just another ego-driven activity that they obsess on (same kind of dopamine spike as OCD?).

Hoss and I were actually healthy vegetarians prior to MLC.  At our last meal together in 2012, when he took me out for breakfast, he ordered chicken and waffles, awkwardly and proudly announcing, "This is how I eat now!".  (My response: "America, where honey mustard is a now a breakfast food."  He replied, "I'm not going to eat the mustard!!!".  I said, "Fine. America, where honey mustard is a breakfast garnish."  ). 

It is a huge change and out of the ordinary for him, but hopefully won't be a health deficit long term.  I think more than anything, it's another signifier of crisis that even their food must match the new identity.

[kikki]

in the scope of MLC becomes just another ego-driven activity that they obsess on (same kind of dopamine spike as OCD?).

I would absolutely agree Ready2.

Here's some more interesting audios on Depression. Link will probably last for around a week.
http://depression180.com/replay/

[Dagolark]

I stumbled across this website where a man suffering from depression shares insights and tips. It's incredible how much of what he says is word for word what I've been reading in the forum! I think it's a great resource to hear from someone who's been on 'the other side' of it, even though he just basically confirms everything we've been discussing...

The downside is that he mostly talks to the men, and what they can do to snap out of it, which really doesn't help us. For the spouses, he shares the insights of his wife, but his conclusion is the same one we reached: you didn't cause the problem so you can't solve it, it's not about you, you need to let him go, set boundaries to protect yourself, and wait for him to wake up.

This is the link to the whole thing. http://www.storiedmind.com/men-depression/page/2/

I'll be posting the links to articles I found helpful and some quotes... feel free to add your own favourite quotes if you find anything useful!


http://www.storiedmind.com/men-depression/depressed-men-behaving-badly-can-stop/

an interesting portrait of the “unconscious man,” one who is focused solely on what is missing from his life and what he does not get from his partner. He can think only of what his life should be, not what it is – what he wants, not what he has.

In contrast, the conscious man is able to look at his life without illusions. He can accept it for what it is, with all its good things and all its limitations. Instead of being consumed with urges to turn his life upside down to get what he wants, he is attentive to experience as he lives it...

http://www.storiedmind.com/depressed-partners/relationships-conflict-depressions-role/

First is the self-absorption that possessed me. Everything revolved around the pain I felt and the obsessive thinking that went with it. Whether I was in a phase of feeling worthless and causing all the unhappiness in my family – or blaming everything on them, the world revolved around me. My wife and every person I knew became players in my drama, projections of my depression, and I couldn’t see them for who they were.


http://www.storiedmind.com/self-esteem/talking-to-depression/
http://www.storiedmind.com/men-depression/talking-to-depression-partner/

Talking to the depression of a spouse or partner is usually a no-win trap. I speak from the experience of having angrily fought off so many attempts my wife made over the years simply to let me know that something was deeply wrong. Depression is the intruder in any intimate relationship. It creates a replica of the person you know and love, like the pod people of the Body Snatchers films – identical bodies taking the life away from the man or woman living with you and substituting a terrifying, unknown being.


http://www.storiedmind.com/self-esteem/why-depressed-men-leave-1/
http://www.storiedmind.com/reconnecting/why-depressed-men-leave-2/
http://www.storiedmind.com/isolation/why-depressed-men-leave-3/

If there was nothing wrong with me, there was no need to talk about it. Every time my wife would try to engage me about what I was feeling, I refused to talk about it. I was genuinely angry at the suggestion that I had a problem. This behavior is frequently described, but what many miss is the sense of power men can get from holding back words. There is a perverse satisfaction in keeping others guessing, and the silence also prevents me from knowing more than I want to know.

[Dagolark]

http://www.storiedmind.com/men-depression/the-longing-to-leave-2/

Unhappy without knowing why, I had to find an explanation, and the easiest way to do that was to look outward. I could only see my present life, my wife, my work as holding me back, frustrating my deepest desires. In effect, I was blaming everyone but me for my misery. In that state, I could only focus on the promise of leaving, finding a new mate, new work, new everything.

Every suggestion my wife might make that there was something wrong with me only brought the angriest denial. Every time she said how much she loved me only felt like a demand that I stay stuck in this unfulfilling life and do what she wanted me to do. I knew so clearly that I was not the problem, certainly not sick but for the first time on the verge of escaping into the exciting life I should have been living all along.

There is something very close to the power of addiction in the fantasy of escape. I found it almost impossible to see through the dreams of a new life. It meant so much – my survival as a person seemed to be at stake. Unaware of the full effect of depression, blocking out what my wife and others were trying to tell me, I inflicted a lot of pain on my family, thinking that I had to be brutally honest in order to save myself. Fortunately, as I noted in the last post on this subject, I had been through enough work in therapy to have glimmers of the truth, and that helped me step back from the brink.

I’m not big on offering advice, but the potentially devastating impacts of depressed people on those closest to them leads me to go a bit beyond just reflecting on what I’ve been through.

If you’re trying to deal with the sudden transformation of an intimate partner, get help, starting with friends and family. You’ve likely felt such a deep assault and wound that it would be easy to get lost in the sheer humiliation, hurt and anger of the experience, searching for what you’ve done wrong, what you could do or say to set things right. That’s a trap set for you by the voice of depression. That voice tries to persuade you, just as it has persuaded your loved one, that it’s your fault. Not true. It’s your partner’s illness that’s at the root of it. Those closest to you and your partner have doubtless noticed something strange and may have been hurt as well by new behavior. That will remind you that you’re not alone in this.

And remember that you can’t cure someone else with your words and love. They only backfire.

[Dagolark]

http://depressionfalloutmessageboard.yuku.com/reply/68502/Generic-guide-from-the-viewpoint-of-a-depressed-person#reply-68502

AAPNS

AAPS is Anger, Apathy, Numbness, Pain, and Shame.  These were the 4 feelings/ moods that controlled my every thought while I was depressed.

-When I was asked. “What do I want for dinner?”  I got angry.  I was angry I was even asked.  It has nothing to do with being polite.  My mind will not process great intentions.  My paranoia will distort the meaning of the question as something is wrong with me.  What does it matter if I wanted chicken or beef for dinner.  Just leave me alone

-When I was asked about whether I liked the red one or the blue one, I was apathetic, or numb. I don’t care.  My mind will not tell me which is better.  My opinion is worthless anyway.  That’s how I see it

-When I was asked about how I was feeling, all I could feel was pain.  Yep.  I was crying.  Crying all the time.  Crying because of nothing.  Crying because of everything.  Everything was wrong.  I can’t do anything right, so everything becomes painful.  So much pain.

-When I was asked by my wife, ‘What she could do to help me?’ I felt shame. I wasn’t worthy enough to receive such a gift as help.  Why would this woman help such a loser like me.  I wasn’t worth the air I was breathing.    Pushing help upon just made me feel more shame.

I could write at length on these 5 feelings.  Every action or inaction was the result of these 5 feelings/moods.  I wasn’t motivated to do anything.  The depressed mind twists and distorts every action or phrase.  Every criticism will feel like a personal attack on me.  Every question has a motive behind its intention.  I cannot count how many times I snapped at my wife for just simple things.

What can you do?

To understand this question you need to understand the position that you are in relative to the depressed.

Think of it like if:

§ Your Dso was a basketball with a bell inside the ball.

§ Depression is a soccer ball

§ You are represented as ‘one hand’

§ His life is balancing on the soccer ball

§ You see him falling so you push the other side to try to balance him

§ Every time the bell rings in the ball, he will go into a rage/depressive episode.

§ He is now falling on the opposite side

§ Constant adjustments is just delaying the inevitable, and ringing the bell constantly

§ At some point he is going to need to fall.

§ He will need to fall so he can learn to pick himself up. I had to learn that the hard way

I asked my wife how she handled me at my worst. She said she ignored my rants, and set boundaries (like no name calling or biting remarks.)

        ∞Do not be rude out in public

        ∞Do not berate or belittle me

        ∞Do not harm me or my family in any way

        ∞Do not swear or use profanity on me or anyone I care about

        ∞I only want to help you and there is no ulterior motive

So what can you do?

        ∞Allow your DSO to fall.  Let them hit rock bottom.  Do not force therapy or medication, but do suggest it.  Your DSO will need to help themselves.  Think of it like class at school.  You can force your child to go to class, but unless they are willing to open to learning and help themselves, they will never learn anything from the class.  Forcing them is an exercise in futility. Trying to hold them from falling deeper into depression will only make you depressed.  Do not go down with the ship!

        ∞Allow them to separate.  The depressed mind is filled with the 5 feeling AAPNS so much of the time; they cannot even hear themselves think.  Making simple decision becomes arduous. Solitude is sometimes the only peace a depressed person can get.  That is why we sleep so much.

        ∞Help yourself.  If you feel like you cannot maintain your sanity, you are not alone.  People on this forum are great and sharing your story will help alleviate some of your burden.  Many fallouters may even seek therapy to understand what is going on, and to get qualified professional help to make sense of what is going on in their lives.  Venting is almost necessary as fallouters will carry most of the burden as the depressed cannot function properly.  I remember I barely did any house chores when my depression hit its peak.  Even to get up to bring the dishes to the dishwasher was laborious.  Find ways to lift yourself, and brighten your spirits. 

[toomanytearss]

I found those articles very interesting.  I will probably read them over numerous times.  I don't know if my h is depressed or mlc for sure, but I suspect it.  He hasn't moved forward, things still here, still at motel, but talks about his future still without us.  I think he suspects there are issues, been to the doctor, but I don't think he will ever seek the help he needs. 

So these articles help me to understand and remember that I can't help him and I have to take care of me and d.

[dadspearl]

Thank you for posting, D!
Excellent info!

[God's child]

What has been described is my exh to a tee! Now I have not been around him but have heard bits and pieces from family members. I am trying to understand it all but I find it so very difficult to deal with. All of his symptoms that deal with depression are clearly evident in his attempt to be considered sane but he is not. The OW is dealing with  him thinking he is ok and probably the love of her life. He will marry her soon and I will no longer be a part of his life if he does. I must move on because he has and will be in bearable to be around.

[DaRealist]

Very interesting!  Thanks for the posts and links!

[toomanytearss]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/09/16/blood-test-depression_n_5826592.html

Found this interesting.

[Windsofchange]

That would be absolutely amazing!!

[kikki]

Despite the research hurdles she still needs to overcome, Redei is confident that her test can make a positive impact on the millions who struggle with depression -- not only by making treatment more precise, but by bringing psychiatry "into the 21st century,” Redei said. “We’ll get to the point where there won’t be any discrimination between physical illness and mental illness.”

That sure would be a good day.
Thanks for sharing the article.

[Anjae]

Very interesting.

However, with High Energy MLCers doubt anyone would bother to send them to do a depression test.

[toomanytearss]

I believe in the article it says this test would or could become a routine test that is done when you have a regular exam and would be available to all testing facilities.  You would just get tested along with all the other stuff they test for during your regular exam. 

[Anjae]

What the text says is this:

"But perhaps just as important, said lead investigator Eva Redei, Ph.D., is the potential the test has for taking some of the stigma out of a depression diagnosis. When depression can be confirmed with a blood test like any other physical ailment, she said, there’s less stigma about having the disease and getting treatment."

It does say it will be done along other blood tests. It may be a test like for some other diseases that has to be spicifally asked for. But we really do not know. There is not much info on that on the article.

"Once you have numbers in your hand, you can identify that [depression] is an illness -- not a matter of will.”

Agree. Wonder if one day they will have one for MLC.

But the article states that the blood test for depression has not yet been aproved by the Food and Drug Administration and that they don't know if it will be.

This is also very interesting
"Redei’s study compared the blood samples of 32 patients who had been diagnosed with depression in the traditional way (a clinical interview) with samples taken from 32 people without depression. She found nine RNA blood markers -- the molecules that carry out DNA's instructions -- that differed significantly between the two groups, which she then used as the basis for the depression diagnosis.

Then, the depressed patients went through 18 weeks of cognitive behavioral therapy, a common treatment for depression. Re-testing their blood, Redei was able to tell which patients had benefitted the most from therapy, just by examining the changes in their RNA markers. In other words, the test was also a biological way to tell if treatment had been effective.

Finally, Redei also noticed that there were three RNA markers that didn’t change in depressed patients, no matter if they had benefitted from cognitive behavioral therapy or not. She suspects they may be markers that show if a person is predisposed to depression."

Even if I think that brain tests may also help to diagnose depression.

[Thunder]

I see so much depression in my X off and on for the past 6 months but he is in no way ready to get tested for it or even admit it may be a possibility.

Just thinks he is not getting enough sleep.  sigh

[Wounded Bird]

I see depression in my H.  For one thing he says he wakes up early every night. I used to do that for months but when I got on anti-depressants I slowly started to sleep like a baby again! I've mentioned this to him...pointless! I won't lose any sleep tonight over it!

[toomanytearss]

Mine has been diagnosed and he actually believes it, but his progress is slow and one step forward and it seems 100 steps back.  He also complains not to sleep through the night or to sleep all day on his day off.  Who knows if he's telling the truth.  He refuses medication and is doing therapy only.  I think he needs to live at therapy.   

[Anjae]

He also complains not to sleep through the night or to sleep all day on his day off.  Who knows if he's telling the truth. 

This is most likely true. It fits both depression, anxiety and being too tired, because the adrenaline kick from work days is out, on his day off.

In MLC world a MLCer that goes to therapy is a miracle. 

[Sunny]

Just wanted to attach an article I've read abut depression in men. Men account for 75% of suicides, a statistic I find shocking. It used to be the 20 year old men committing suicide, now it's the 40+ men who are killing themselves. Even for those who don't suffer MLC, (and tbh, probably many of them do), the expectations of "being a man" has likely affected most men. From a young age, boys are told to "man up" or "boys don't cry" and learn that "being a man" requires that they suppress their emotions, especially any feelings of vulnerability and fear, or conceal under an accepted "manly" emotion such as anger. Most men would be hard pressed to identify more than a couple emotions as so few have been culturally available to men, who have long denied themselves access to their emotions.

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/feb/08/depression-drives-many-men-to-commit-suicide

[UKStander]

Great topic for a thread, Sunny.  I'm going to read that Guardian article thoroughly when I have more time. But I've already posted to Facebook.  We folks here are in a unique position to spread awareness. We don't have to go on about MLC (a particularly nasty strain of depression), because I find all too many people shut down and don't really want to know - they think I'm being delusional and that worries them.  But we can spread awareness of common-or-garden depression....   No difficulty with that whatsoever.   

Have you joined Depression Alliance?  Good organisation in the UK.  Smaller than 'Mind' which deals with the whole spectrum of mental illness, and it's more focused and friendly. I have, and I plan to do some fund-raising and more, when time allows.

[Sunny]

No I am not familiar with depression alliance, will definitely check it out! Depression definitely needs more awareness, especially how it impacts men, who appear to appear to have so few resources.

[barbiedoll]

Good thread. I spent a snowy day yesterday in front of the fire reading. I read " I Don't Want To Talk About It" , specifically about depression in men and how early trauma manifests itself into mid life crash . I must say... it was the best i have read in a long long time in trying to understand what happened to my husband and my marriage. I felt a deep surge of compassion for my husband.. almost stronger than my rage. So utterly confusing. Anyone who has followed my stories knows my husband has had severe abandonement, raised by a bitter ragefull alcoholic father and sexual assault at 10 years old. This book was sent to me to soften my understanding of what has happened. I recommend that it is a must read for many.. if not all,  wives of men in crisis. Thanks for starting this thread.

[UKStander]

Barbiedoll!  I'm so glad you wrote that.  It's Terrence Real's book, right?  I read it about 9 months after BD and I swear it saved my life. Until I read it, I didn't fully comprehend MLC in a way that fitted exactly with my H and his family (who I know very well).  And what it gave me was understanding and compassion. This turned me into a bit of an outcast for a while because most people I knew wanted to see me simply react with anger and self-righteousness - they wanted my H to be punished for what he'd done.

For me, this version of reality is, and always will be, far too simplistic.

I agree -  I Don't Want to Talk About It should be on every LBS's reading list.  It's a good starting point for the journey.  After that, you can draw your own conclusions about your own spouse. It's not an easy read - and it covers things like the 'escape into grandiosity' which I guess aren't simple concepts - but it's worth the effort.

[Sunny]

What a shame that book is out of print! Fortunately still available on amazon (uk), just noticed it's priced at 39p!! I haven't read it all, I remember I found it so moving, I had to take a break! Good to be reminded of it, without a doubt, the best book for me about what male depression. Definitely helped me to forgive H and find compassion for him.

UKS, I totally understand about other people's expectations. I've since learned to accept that some people feel differently from me, but oh well.  If they are friends, they will respect my opinion and agree to disagree.  If they really have an issue with it and can't respect my feelings, then maybe we aren't meant to be friends. Like many here. I've lost a few "friends" through this, but accept they were never really friends if they couldn't allow me to have my own feelings about my own life.

If you've not read "I don't want to talk about it", you're missing out on one of the best MLC books out there.

[1Cor.13]

What a shame that book is out of print! Fortunately still available on amazon (uk), just noticed it's priced at 39p!! I haven't read it all, I remember I found it so moving, I had to take a break! Good to be reminded of it, without a doubt, the best book for me about what male depression. Definitely helped me to forgive H and find compassion for him.

UKS, I totally understand about other people's expectations. I've since learned to accept that some people feel differently from me, but oh well.  If they are friends, they will respect my opinion and agree to disagree.  If they really have an issue with it and can't respect my feelings, then maybe we aren't meant to be friends. Like many here. I've lost a few "friends" through this, but accept they were never really friends if they couldn't allow me to have my own feelings about my own life.

If you've not read "I don't want to talk about it", you're missing out on one of the best MLC books out there.

-------------------------------------
Hi all, just a question,

My H was raised by a very depressed and abusive mother and I just wonder if the mlc depression is the same for women? Although women are brought up differently I'm wondering if a history of abandonment and abuse as children also makes them vulnerable..why wouldn't it? With the whole "walk away wife" phenomena and all. Thoughts?

Thanks!
1Cor13

[MyBrainIsBroken]

My wife was definitely depressed last February, March when her affair began. She has continued to show signs of depression since then. She didn't have a history of depression but she does have a history of childhood abuse.

[1Cor.13]

My wife was definitely depressed last February, March when her affair began. She has continued to show signs of depression since then. She didn't have a history of depression but she does have a history of childhood abuse.

----------------------
Which can and does lead to MLC and as far as I can read from people here, it looks the same as it does with men. You seem to be doing a bit better? I'm going on 4 years with my mlc'er..he is still in la la land with my D18 and me..even my D has detached now, it was bound to happen sooner or later, he started his affair and left when she was just 14..tough on a young teenaged girl to see her dad go off the deep end. His affair alienator is gone but he is still unremourseful as ever and determined to find a female half his age..So sad really..Blessings to you BisB..

1Cor13

[Seekingpatience]

Have just ordered the book and the CD.what caught my eye was the phrase "escape to grandiosity". FIL is a Baron, really! But a bought title if YKWIM. He had a tough tough childhood and I think passed down some very unhealthy perspectives to his sons.

I want to find out more not only to understand H but also to be able to catch anything early whe it comes to D16.

I had mentioned to the MC/IC that H's A was self-medicating in nature and he looked startled and said " it may very well have been" than was one of the "red flags" that told me to look for another MC/IC. The other one was his comment " your H is rather old for a MLC" ! H was a couple of years  past his 50th!

Ah well, it's a vast uncharted territory MLC.

[patience.of.a.saint]

I've been reading more about depression in general and have been thinking about how far back my guy may have had that going on. He for sure was taught to never cry and to be a man, so he's never really had a chance to express any feelings other than anger after it has built up a while. I think his depression may have gone back further than I ever thought about. Will have to see if I can find that book, as that sounds interesting.

[hawk]

Don't really agree on men only open to a few emotions or whatever it said though. We have em all , well l do and most blokes l know do.
Most are no where near as mushy or interested in too full on emotional day to day crap as women though to is another big thing.

Depression and l believe mlc to though can be as much about your life or your wife for that matter and how it's turned out as anything else to .
And for a married guy that is often how it has to stay to though see , bc there's a family , a wife , so he might not be able to change a damn thing about it that he wants to.
Money , again the family , the wife

[Dji76]

I agree w hawk... The men I know have a full range of emotions. I often didn't share my emotions with my w because she would over react and make the situation worse. She would make it about her then I would need to deal with her emotions AND mine. Eveuntall it just became easier to keep em to myself.

[Venus]

Terence Real book definitely worth a read.  I read it within 6 months of BD, it was an eyeopener.

Love & Light
Venus

[MsT]

I agree w hawk... The men I know have a full range of emotions. I often didn't share my emotions with my w because she would over react and make the situation worse. She would make it about her then I would need to deal with her emotions AND mine. Eveuntall it just became easier to keep em to myself.

This is my mother exactly. Growing up, any emotional display would set of a hysterical display of her feelings and we would just end up sitting there wishing we'd kept it in. And that's how my siblings and I all became super codependent people pleasers, folks.

I've been reading more about depression in general and have been thinking about how far back my guy may have had that going on. He for sure was taught to never cry and to be a man, so he's never really had a chance to express any feelings other than anger after it has built up a while. I think his depression may have gone back further than I ever thought about. Will have to see if I can find that book, as that sounds interesting.

Also relate to this, MrT is an emotional person by nature but was taught to suck it up. I am starting to suspect he had another major depressive episode shortly before we met because of certain behavioral similarities, but not manifesting itself as the sadness and funk like the cartoon people in the AD commercials, nobody really knew what was happening. Maybe even him.

[superdog]

It appears to be mental health awareness week here in the uk and i must admit to being annoyed a few times at what gets talked about.

Its all centred on the sadness the down parts of depression. At no point in all the literature and posting does it mention the anger, the destructive nature of depression or the devastating effects it has in families where depression goes untreated.

It has taken me all my time not to say at least somewhere that there is very much two sides to depression. Clearly the side that is never mentioned, clearly the part that is not acknowledged by society as they want to keep it all about "illness" only.

We have all had ring side seat at the depression show and we all know the part that society wants to hide. I think its really off that it is never spoken about or highlighted. I feel the selfish nature of depression is somewhat encouraged by refusing to acknowledge how cruel and hurtful people with depression get.

I am very sorry if this sound uncompassionate, but thats my point. Does feeling sorry for someone help?  Does excusing horrid behaviour take away personal responsibility, i believe it does.

Just saying, families suffer too.

Sd
X

[toomanytearss]

superdog, interesting and I agree with you.  Depression or not they are still responsible for their behavior.  Their choices are theirs and they should be held responsible for them. 

[Anjae]

new thread: http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=8495.0