[hobo1]

Fascinating topic.  This would make a great research paper....  If only it wasn't all so personal.

I've had a pretty traumatic childhood, my father and mother both passed away when I was 8 and 9.  I'm sure that has some impact on how I am...  Perhaps I am also prone to MLC.  I don't believe I've experienced real clinical depression.... despite xW's MLC mess.

As far as xW goes...  She has every symptom of an Avoidant Personality Disorder.  I've known her for 23 years, and am so surprised at myself that i didn't realize it.  I knew she was shy, and perhaps a little immature...  but to have EVERY symptom.  I didn't realize until BD, and I started to do some research.

Her family also has a history of thyroid disease.  No one that I knew of had MLC though...  She was emotionally abandoned by her mother at an early age...  was very passive aggressive, had this avoidant personality...  felt bored...  stay at home mom, perimenopausal etc....

I guess it is all just a perfect combination.

There goes "thyroid" again...I never thought it was connected to depression!  Hobo, I read somewhere that when a death in the family happens before the age of 10...you can almost count on it, in their adult life, a MLC will occur.    I think the author called them Chaos Kids.  I found it...Larry Bilotta. Here is the link. where he explains his theory.
http://www.marriage-success-secrets.com/

So you and W both had tragedies in your family before the age of 10.  Coupled with thyroid problems.

SSG

Yes, I read about chaos kid....  I actually had a session with Larry Bilotta.

OK, I'm waiting for my MLC...  or perhaps I am having one now?

[LettingGo]

Throwing my theory into the ring....Recently read a book called "Grain Brain" by a neurosurgeon who purports that almost all people have a sensitivty to wheat and other grains....also, to prescription medications such as Lipitor, a commonly prescribed cholesterol lowering drug whose side effects include DEPRESSION, ERECTILE DYSFUNCTION and HEART ATTACK.....

AD's list SUICIDAL THOUGHTS as a possible side effect, yet Americans take these pharmaceuticals daily for various "conditions" and coupled with poor nutrition, or the nutrition altering effect of these drugs, it's no wonder that brain scans show reduced or abnormal function when these elements are introduced....the depression leads to alcohol which is a depressant, LOL!!

I've begged my husband to stop taking his cholesterol meds....he's been on them for years and the ED started soon after getting on them now that I think of it....but he is scared he will have a heart attack if he quits! In no way am I discounting the FOO issues and loss as triggers for MLC, but I wonder how rampant this would be in the absence of pharmaceuticals and the Western diet....

[kikki]

Four causes of depression:

1) Physiology - such as illness, hypothyroidism, nutrient deficiencies, food allergies, food additives, head injury, low testosterone.

2)  Medications, Drugs and toxins - Prescription medications, recreational drugs, chemicals, heavy metals

3)  Emotional trauma

4)  Automatic Negative thoughts

Impossible to not look at this list and not think instead of being a list of 4 possibilities, it's seemingly the recipe for MLC - all happening at once!

That's a very very interesting thought .....

LG - I would agree with you about the western diet (1), stress(I guess that would be under number 1, as we know understand that stress has a direct physiological effect on your body), medication(2) etc.  It definitely is supported by the latest science research, and as Ready2 said earlier, it's a possibility that MLC is the perfect storm of all of these above, coming together at once.

They know that emotional trauma under a certain age, rewires the brain. 

Add to that FOO issues where our MLCers were more often than not left to compartmentalise their hurt and be left to deal with it alone without the help from adults to make sense of it - once they get to mid life and they suffer an emotional shock/loss (death of a parent, illness of a spouse, loss of a job) - they have nothing left to cope with. 

[toughtimes]

Said "You know, all the years I worked in ER I thought people with mental health issues were just losers. And now that i've been there... i still think: just losers". Loser - that's the label he gives himself now.

Osb, this bears out Terry Real's assertion that men are programmed to not recognise mental health issues and therefore get help.

All psychology is ultimately biological, in my humble view.

I agree. I have suffered with reactive depression and hormonal depression on and off all my adult life. It hasn't stopped me working or living well, but I look back and I understand why I reacted in ways that I did. I had a head injury as a child and have since discovered that may have caused damage to the pituitary gland, a possible explanation?

Four causes of depression:

1) Physiology - such as illness, hypothyroidism, nutrient deficiencies, food allergies, food additives, head injury, low testosterone.

2)  Medications, Drugs and toxins - Prescription medications, recreational drugs, chemicals, heavy metals

3)  Emotional trauma

4)  Automatic Negative thoughts

Impossible to not look at this list and not think instead of being a list of 4 possibilities, it's seemingly the recipe for MLC - all happening at once!

That's a very very interesting thought .....

LG - I would agree with you about the western diet (1), stress(I guess that would be under number 1, as we know understand that stress has a direct physiological effect on your body), medication(2) etc.  It definitely is supported by the latest science research, and as Ready2 said earlier, it's a possibility that MLC is the perfect storm of all of these above, coming together at once.

They know that emotional trauma under a certain age, rewires the brain. 

Add to that FOO issues where our MLCers were more often than not left to compartmentalise their hurt and be left to deal with it alone without the help from adults to make sense of it - once they get to mid life and they suffer an emotional shock/loss (death of a parent, illness of a spouse, loss of a job) - they have nothing left to cope with. 

It really is the perfect storm for our MLCers.

This is interesting, in 2008, after we moved and when I think my Hs crisis started. It was then that H started to develop a wheat intolerance, he had been baking lots of bread and adding more yeast !!!  And so he figured that had triggered an intolerance, his mother starting suffering with the same thing, a kind of irritable bowel syndrome. H is wheat free and has been for at least four years. His diet is better than ever, I never saw him eat salads or soups and now that is all he eats. He also eats a calorie controlled curry every Tuesday when he stays here  .
He has lost loads of weight and runs and swims pretty much every day. His ow is a "recovering" anorexic. Does anyone have any ideas about whether this drastic change in diet and lifestyle could cause more problems for my H at his age?
I mean, in some ways it is a positive change, more vegetables and less fat (he was always very fond of meat and ale and said he hoped to get gout one day just like his high living ebullient friend he started the business with!) ... gives you an idea of the contrast I am seeing.

[kikki]

He has lost loads of weight and runs and swims pretty much every day. His ow is a "recovering" anorexic. Does anyone have any ideas about whether this drastic change in diet and lifestyle could cause more problems for my H at his age?

Your H sounds like mine.  He too has made big dietary changes.
We always ate well, but he goes through phases of eliminating meat and alcohol and coffee.  He binged on coffee and alcohol at BD and afterwards.

I wonder if it's something that they can control when so much of their life is so out of control.

Different people have different ideas on the meat vs grain vs ....... way of eating.
The latest research seems to show that calorie restriction leads to a healthier body and longer life.

[Ready2Transform]

I think it falls into the same category as the (majority of?) MLCers who take up running or fitness in some way.  In general, it's something that is a healthy habit for anyone, but in the scope of MLC becomes just another ego-driven activity that they obsess on (same kind of dopamine spike as OCD?).

Hoss and I were actually healthy vegetarians prior to MLC.  At our last meal together in 2012, when he took me out for breakfast, he ordered chicken and waffles, awkwardly and proudly announcing, "This is how I eat now!".  (My response: "America, where honey mustard is a now a breakfast food."  He replied, "I'm not going to eat the mustard!!!".  I said, "Fine. America, where honey mustard is a breakfast garnish."  ). 

It is a huge change and out of the ordinary for him, but hopefully won't be a health deficit long term.  I think more than anything, it's another signifier of crisis that even their food must match the new identity.

[kikki]

in the scope of MLC becomes just another ego-driven activity that they obsess on (same kind of dopamine spike as OCD?).

I would absolutely agree Ready2.

Here's some more interesting audios on Depression. Link will probably last for around a week.
http://depression180.com/replay/

[Dagolark]

I stumbled across this website where a man suffering from depression shares insights and tips. It's incredible how much of what he says is word for word what I've been reading in the forum! I think it's a great resource to hear from someone who's been on 'the other side' of it, even though he just basically confirms everything we've been discussing...

The downside is that he mostly talks to the men, and what they can do to snap out of it, which really doesn't help us. For the spouses, he shares the insights of his wife, but his conclusion is the same one we reached: you didn't cause the problem so you can't solve it, it's not about you, you need to let him go, set boundaries to protect yourself, and wait for him to wake up.

This is the link to the whole thing. http://www.storiedmind.com/men-depression/page/2/

I'll be posting the links to articles I found helpful and some quotes... feel free to add your own favourite quotes if you find anything useful!


http://www.storiedmind.com/men-depression/depressed-men-behaving-badly-can-stop/

an interesting portrait of the “unconscious man,” one who is focused solely on what is missing from his life and what he does not get from his partner. He can think only of what his life should be, not what it is – what he wants, not what he has.

In contrast, the conscious man is able to look at his life without illusions. He can accept it for what it is, with all its good things and all its limitations. Instead of being consumed with urges to turn his life upside down to get what he wants, he is attentive to experience as he lives it...

http://www.storiedmind.com/depressed-partners/relationships-conflict-depressions-role/

First is the self-absorption that possessed me. Everything revolved around the pain I felt and the obsessive thinking that went with it. Whether I was in a phase of feeling worthless and causing all the unhappiness in my family – or blaming everything on them, the world revolved around me. My wife and every person I knew became players in my drama, projections of my depression, and I couldn’t see them for who they were.


http://www.storiedmind.com/self-esteem/talking-to-depression/
http://www.storiedmind.com/men-depression/talking-to-depression-partner/

Talking to the depression of a spouse or partner is usually a no-win trap. I speak from the experience of having angrily fought off so many attempts my wife made over the years simply to let me know that something was deeply wrong. Depression is the intruder in any intimate relationship. It creates a replica of the person you know and love, like the pod people of the Body Snatchers films – identical bodies taking the life away from the man or woman living with you and substituting a terrifying, unknown being.


http://www.storiedmind.com/self-esteem/why-depressed-men-leave-1/
http://www.storiedmind.com/reconnecting/why-depressed-men-leave-2/
http://www.storiedmind.com/isolation/why-depressed-men-leave-3/

If there was nothing wrong with me, there was no need to talk about it. Every time my wife would try to engage me about what I was feeling, I refused to talk about it. I was genuinely angry at the suggestion that I had a problem. This behavior is frequently described, but what many miss is the sense of power men can get from holding back words. There is a perverse satisfaction in keeping others guessing, and the silence also prevents me from knowing more than I want to know.

[Dagolark]

http://www.storiedmind.com/men-depression/the-longing-to-leave-2/

Unhappy without knowing why, I had to find an explanation, and the easiest way to do that was to look outward. I could only see my present life, my wife, my work as holding me back, frustrating my deepest desires. In effect, I was blaming everyone but me for my misery. In that state, I could only focus on the promise of leaving, finding a new mate, new work, new everything.

Every suggestion my wife might make that there was something wrong with me only brought the angriest denial. Every time she said how much she loved me only felt like a demand that I stay stuck in this unfulfilling life and do what she wanted me to do. I knew so clearly that I was not the problem, certainly not sick but for the first time on the verge of escaping into the exciting life I should have been living all along.

There is something very close to the power of addiction in the fantasy of escape. I found it almost impossible to see through the dreams of a new life. It meant so much – my survival as a person seemed to be at stake. Unaware of the full effect of depression, blocking out what my wife and others were trying to tell me, I inflicted a lot of pain on my family, thinking that I had to be brutally honest in order to save myself. Fortunately, as I noted in the last post on this subject, I had been through enough work in therapy to have glimmers of the truth, and that helped me step back from the brink.

I’m not big on offering advice, but the potentially devastating impacts of depressed people on those closest to them leads me to go a bit beyond just reflecting on what I’ve been through.

If you’re trying to deal with the sudden transformation of an intimate partner, get help, starting with friends and family. You’ve likely felt such a deep assault and wound that it would be easy to get lost in the sheer humiliation, hurt and anger of the experience, searching for what you’ve done wrong, what you could do or say to set things right. That’s a trap set for you by the voice of depression. That voice tries to persuade you, just as it has persuaded your loved one, that it’s your fault. Not true. It’s your partner’s illness that’s at the root of it. Those closest to you and your partner have doubtless noticed something strange and may have been hurt as well by new behavior. That will remind you that you’re not alone in this.

And remember that you can’t cure someone else with your words and love. They only backfire.

[Dagolark]

http://depressionfalloutmessageboard.yuku.com/reply/68502/Generic-guide-from-the-viewpoint-of-a-depressed-person#reply-68502

AAPNS

AAPS is Anger, Apathy, Numbness, Pain, and Shame.  These were the 4 feelings/ moods that controlled my every thought while I was depressed.

-When I was asked. “What do I want for dinner?”  I got angry.  I was angry I was even asked.  It has nothing to do with being polite.  My mind will not process great intentions.  My paranoia will distort the meaning of the question as something is wrong with me.  What does it matter if I wanted chicken or beef for dinner.  Just leave me alone

-When I was asked about whether I liked the red one or the blue one, I was apathetic, or numb. I don’t care.  My mind will not tell me which is better.  My opinion is worthless anyway.  That’s how I see it

-When I was asked about how I was feeling, all I could feel was pain.  Yep.  I was crying.  Crying all the time.  Crying because of nothing.  Crying because of everything.  Everything was wrong.  I can’t do anything right, so everything becomes painful.  So much pain.

-When I was asked by my wife, ‘What she could do to help me?’ I felt shame. I wasn’t worthy enough to receive such a gift as help.  Why would this woman help such a loser like me.  I wasn’t worth the air I was breathing.    Pushing help upon just made me feel more shame.

I could write at length on these 5 feelings.  Every action or inaction was the result of these 5 feelings/moods.  I wasn’t motivated to do anything.  The depressed mind twists and distorts every action or phrase.  Every criticism will feel like a personal attack on me.  Every question has a motive behind its intention.  I cannot count how many times I snapped at my wife for just simple things.

What can you do?

To understand this question you need to understand the position that you are in relative to the depressed.

Think of it like if:

§ Your Dso was a basketball with a bell inside the ball.

§ Depression is a soccer ball

§ You are represented as ‘one hand’

§ His life is balancing on the soccer ball

§ You see him falling so you push the other side to try to balance him

§ Every time the bell rings in the ball, he will go into a rage/depressive episode.

§ He is now falling on the opposite side

§ Constant adjustments is just delaying the inevitable, and ringing the bell constantly

§ At some point he is going to need to fall.

§ He will need to fall so he can learn to pick himself up. I had to learn that the hard way

I asked my wife how she handled me at my worst. She said she ignored my rants, and set boundaries (like no name calling or biting remarks.)

        ∞Do not be rude out in public

        ∞Do not berate or belittle me

        ∞Do not harm me or my family in any way

        ∞Do not swear or use profanity on me or anyone I care about

        ∞I only want to help you and there is no ulterior motive

So what can you do?

        ∞Allow your DSO to fall.  Let them hit rock bottom.  Do not force therapy or medication, but do suggest it.  Your DSO will need to help themselves.  Think of it like class at school.  You can force your child to go to class, but unless they are willing to open to learning and help themselves, they will never learn anything from the class.  Forcing them is an exercise in futility. Trying to hold them from falling deeper into depression will only make you depressed.  Do not go down with the ship!

        ∞Allow them to separate.  The depressed mind is filled with the 5 feeling AAPNS so much of the time; they cannot even hear themselves think.  Making simple decision becomes arduous. Solitude is sometimes the only peace a depressed person can get.  That is why we sleep so much.

        ∞Help yourself.  If you feel like you cannot maintain your sanity, you are not alone.  People on this forum are great and sharing your story will help alleviate some of your burden.  Many fallouters may even seek therapy to understand what is going on, and to get qualified professional help to make sense of what is going on in their lives.  Venting is almost necessary as fallouters will carry most of the burden as the depressed cannot function properly.  I remember I barely did any house chores when my depression hit its peak.  Even to get up to bring the dishes to the dishwasher was laborious.  Find ways to lift yourself, and brighten your spirits.