[rdy2livagn]

I can understand why MC would not be good until they are out of the tunnel and ready to reconcile. What about IC? My H started counseling the week before he moved out. He has been out 3 months now and continues to go to counseling. Occasionally he will tell me he has a counseling appointment. I never ask if he has an appointment. In April he said we could put the divorce on hold while he goes thru counseling because he was in no hurry for a divorce and maybe he would change his mind thru counseling. By early May he said no amount of "healing" was going to change the fact that he will not give me 100% and wants a divorce. I don't know what to think about it but I do know that he continues to go. Is IC helpful during this process?

[onmyfeet]

Some thoughts about individual counseling

I have had 15 years of IC following the "Talk" therapy protocol with two different therapists. Although I didn't take any medication, the first was a psychiatrist. The second was a psychologist who followed the somewhat interesting beliefs of the writer David Schnarch.

However, in retrospect I would say that "Talk" therapy is a complete and utter waste of time and money. I wish I had the fifteen years and many thousands of dollars back. Talk therapy is cathartic in the short run and keeps you coming back. But no real progress is made - there is no clear beginning, middle and end during which specific kinds of learning occurs.

Not until I found ego state therapy did anything help me understand myself and my MLC wife. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ego-state_therapy. Basically, the idea is that we all have multiple personality disorder to some degree, created by trauma experienced during the years our brains were developing. See the links at the bottom of the article to two of the sub-methods of ego state therapy. I highly recommend that you choose one of them if you seeking IC and don't waste your time with Talk therapy, which is unfortunately what most therapists practice.

Don't worry - I have no vested interest in trying to talk down Talk therapy and talk up Ego State therapy, other than wanting to see others avoid the wasted time and money.

Some thoughts about marriage counseling

There is no question that our MC made things worse and accelerated the sense of panic that was washing over my wife as she was going into full blown MLC. I have since been to at least two dozen other therapists since that time. They all say the same thing: they can't help. I would be happy with someone other than me saying to my wife that in their professional opinion, she is screwing our kids out of their most precious, most important legacy, namely a loving, nurturing family (like the one she made with me for 25 years), and that that goes for kids of ANY age, not just until they move out of our house. No therapist has been willing to say that. Why is that? I really don't know, but it's a serious flaw in the way that therapists are trained, at least the ones I have talked to.

So, I would say that my experience of MC is that is generally a complete waste of time, too, perhaps because it is most frequently practiced by people who also practice "Talk" therapy for individuals.

There is hope and know-how out there. It's just that very few therapists know about it. Here's one key resource: is "Hold Me Tight" by Sue Johnson. Again, I have no vested interest whatsoever, other than, in a small way, hoping to move the psychotherapy community away from Talk therapy and toward ego state therapy and attachment theory.

[Flowerpower]

hi,

wow...i thought it was just me, that somewhere along the line i did something wrong because MC did make it worse for us!

i suggested counselling almost right after BD and you are right HB, that the fog is really too thick for MCLer to be able to benefit from it esp in the beginning. my H went to MC with me, and yes, became very angry with me for roping counselor in to 'make him do the things i want him to do' ( ie. leave OW )!!

i agree that it made H run away from me with great determination....in typical MLC style, H said he went initially to ' help' me deal with my pain, he certainly didn't need any help!! when MC started working on H, he freaked out and didn't want to go back anymore!

[Trustandlove]

My H called and went to the C that I had been talking to, pretty much of his own volition -- once about 6 months in, when I think he just wanted to convince the C that he was so angry at me, that it was all my fault, and once last fall, when I thought he was having some kind of awakening. 

The first time he just stopped after one phone call and one meeting; the second time he went twice, and   not any more.  The C told me that he had never met anyone with less empathy, and that H only heard the bits that he wanted to hear. 

This C was extremely helpful to me for quite a while, but he doesn't accept mlc as such, although he is very pro-marriage and solution oriented.  I'm not talking to him any more; I think he has done all he is able at this point.  One point in his favor, however, is that H liked him and felt he could talk to him. 

But the bottom line is that I also agree that trying to do MC, which is what this C was trying to do, with a person in mlc doesn't really work. 

[BraveNewWorld]

This is an interesting topic. I have a couple of experiences on this.

After the emotional affair happened, our GP advised that we both take individual counseling with a view to couples counseling. We've been in IC for almost a year now.   

First up, on individual counseling. I used to be the kind of man that would rather walk on hot coals that talk to a therapist. I have since learned, through this experience that talking can be good, and I know for sure that I has helped me slow down and understand myself.

I've realized that the counseling helps me well with practical things in life - like emotionally relating to myself and others, but it doesn't have the answers for my marriage problems. My counselor does not really believe in midlife-crisis. He believes that my wife wants to destroy our family because she is unhappy in the marriage. And who knows? He may well be right. I've been trying to accept that, but I know in my heart that I haven't heard a convincing reason for her leaving, and I haven't heard those words from her: 'I'm unhappy in our marriage ... here's why ....' All I've heard is blame, and it isn't the same thing, or is it? Anyway, my wife does not want to go for couples counseling ... which I think is just basically not acceptable given our situation.

Individual counseling for my wife has helped in ways. It has helped her talk about some of the abuses in her childhood. Her counselor also advised my wife not to leave me ( yet ) because she was emotionally week. My wife is in control of what they discuss in her therapy ... which is how it should be, BUT her therapist hears only one side of the story ... the surreal, exaggerated, nasty side. I doubt very much that my wife talks about the amount of time she spends on FaceBook ( which is basically the center of her life at the moment because of her high school friends ). I doubt very much that she has explained her continued feelings for her high school sweetheart.

My wife used her therapist to contact mine to ask him to tell me that my wife wanted to separate. We signed an agreement that they could exchange info, but for me this peaked new heights of surreality. I can't for the life of me believe that a professional therapist would do that. As far as I'm concerned, it is up to my wife to communicate with me. I've never even met her therapist. She has never met me.

Earlier this year we talked to a 'separation counselor'. He was older and had clearly seen a lot. He very, very quickly zoned in on abuses in my wife's childhood. He told me that our marriage was over. He told me that we had to part. That my wife had to learn how to love herself. That she couldn't love me as she was. That it would take a long time for her to recover. He told her that I wasn't to blame, that I wasn't the person she was portraying me as. This was the crow-bar that helped prize open the door of childhood abuse. My wife was in tears. The first I'd seen in all of this mess. My wife started talking about it after that.

It was a shocking session, but I think it was the closest I've come to any truth - anything that makes sense. He called it 'parting' rather than separating. He told us that we'd have to part before we could unite. We haven't yet. Every day is another possibility.

Right now I am feeling stronger. This changes from day to day, but I'm starting to like myself again. I guess I'm detaching too. I'm starting to have more focus. I'm starting to see how absurd my wife is behaving.

Therapy is an interesting topic. In summary - I think when the MLC sufferer talks to their therapist, they're in control. They need to be honest. In fact - they need someone to keep them straight. It's a very big ask.

[MarkedandHealed]

Not only is the fog too thick during MLC, but I have seen too many times where the MLCer takes something that is said and can be considered ambiguous and twisted it to support their position.

My H did this when I had a brief "I'm not done with this M" talk just to let him know I was standing... so although not in the context of counseling, my H did it to me. I know I've seen many MLCers take things the wrong way or Mis-hear them to suit their own needs.

[Buggy31]

This is exactly what I am talking about in my situation.  My husband uses his therapy session to support his insane behavior.  I've had to tune out his comments because they are so twisted and contorted but here are some of the things he's figured out after being in therapy for a year.
-He realized he's unhappy (which he already knew last year) and he needs to figure out why
-He's unhappy in the R and has been for years (including those that he BEGGED me to extend our family and have lots of children)
-That truth is relative (meaning my truth that it's not about our R is not his truth)
-that he's not depressed but unhappy
-that his relationship with OW is nobody's bussiness
-that something like this (OW relationship) couldn't possibly happen if there weren't issues in the R
He is still going and I wonder if it's worth the time and money during MLC because he sees, hears and does whatever he wants anyhow. 

[stillhere]

Interesting discussion as I've been wondering this myself.  I am learning much here. 

I have started seeing a counselor that is helping me through this.  The terms he uses for this crisis are different than the terms used here, but that is simply semantics.  He has a very good understanding of the MLC and infidelity.  He also has a very good track record.  At our initial session it was uplifting to hear from him that I'm not the crazy one.  He also supports me in standing.  We've not yet begun to explore a lot about me, but I know that day is coming.  For the spouse of the MLCer I would definitely recommend counseling. 

For the MLCer, I don't know that it will help much if he is in Replay.  The counselor and I discussed this a bit yesterday.  He did not say that therapy wouldn't help H, and he would love to see him.  But, H has this momentum going right now based upon the irrational story he has created about me and our marriage.  I can't get in the way of his momentum.  I have to let it run.  Until it runs and crashes we won't be able to get to the issues of how the marriage crisis happened.  I don't think H truly will be able to understand the issues he is facing until he crashes.  At this point in time I tend to think that counseling for him will just slow the momentum.   He's not far enough along in his crisis for any kind of therapy to change the irrational story. 

[Buggy31]

Good point.  I feel the same way about my H.  It may take "rock bottom" but I'm prepared to let go because sometimes as it is stated on this site "life needs to be experienced".  I'll second the benefits of therapy, mostly if you've found someone pro marriage.  It has helped me tremendously.  It has helped me keep perspective, to learn about myself and my needs, to set boundaries in relationships and to have some solid strategies for moving forward instead of staying stuck.  I recommend it for the LBS.

[Undaunted]

If the majority of mental health professionals (psychiatrists, social workers, marriage counselors, et al.) do not recognize MLC or understand it, how can they possibly know how to help an LBS, especially one who is standing?

When H filed and disappeared, I collapsed mentally. To use another non-clinical term, I had a nervous breakdown. The bizarre, explosive, unpredictable, and ominous nature of his behavior for several months took a toll on me. When ultimately he announced his "master plan" of disappearing . . . my mind said TIME OUT. I found myself in intensive outpatient treatment in a psychiatric hospital.

I am no weakling, believe me. I have a responsible job, a good education, and a heck of a hard head. But this crisis took my mind to places that it didn't want to visit. Surreal doesn't begin to describe it.

My treatment consisted of a psychiatrist telling me that I have major depressive disorder -- no argument from me there, I ticked all the boxes, as our UK friends like to say. The rest of my treatment consisted of multiple therapists telling me "he's a deadbeat, write a letter of goodbye -- it will be cathartic, men come and go, you'll get past it, lots of people are divorced, you don't need him," etc., etc.

None of them understood me when I talked about MLC. Some looked at me a little pitifully.

I have read that severe psychological trauma can result in post-traumatic stress disorder. Certainly it can bring on anxiety, depression, and a host of other issues.

I wonder what counseling experiences other LBSs have had. Do you recognize that you have suffered a significant emotional/psychological shock? Do you feel like the walking wounded? Have you seen good results from working with a therapist or counselor?