[BonBon]

S, I think this is a fascinating topic!
I already posted once but my computer went nuts so I hope the other post doesn't show up...forgive me if so.

I think it all really depends on the couple, and the inviduals.

For me, and I know this sounds lousy but...I don't give unconditional love to friends.  That doesn't mean I don't try and be supportive, or that I don't love them or care deeply.  I do for some, not so much for others.  But, I've tried that route with friends and it's been too my own detriment with some.  This is why I prefer not to think of my H as my friend during his MLC.

Instead, I view him as simply my husband.  That is because it's my husband that I vowed to see through the good and the bad and to love forever.  I thought long and hard about my vows before I took them.  I really did. 

For one thing, he hasn't acted as a friend, but, has acted in many (not all) as a husband throughout this (perhaps because he didn't leave). 

A friend who goes through something will have my shoulder and my ear but if they then take it out on me and betray me, they would have to answer long and hard for that and would not have me standing for very long.  That is actually something that has changed in me just in the last 15 or so years.  Previously, I think some of my friends sniffed out my loyalty, my patience, my lack of sticking up for myself.  And they abused it.  Badly.  They are no longer my friends.

Mr. MLC has done the same but he shares the body of the man I made the vows too.  So, that is why he is extended more of me.  Plus, I have never been "in love" with any of my friends and of course I have with my H.

So for me, in part due to the personality change that I have seen and found distasteful, and in part due to me feeling so alone, and due to all that I mentioned above, I'm not into our friendship at this point.

And we always called each other best friends before all this...just in case any one wonders.

I DO see how it would be different for some of you though...just commenting on my own situation.

[LisaLives]

BB kind of answered a question for me, but I don’t think you can compare a broken marriage relationship to a friendship.  However, if my friend finds herself in an MLC, walks away from her family and takes up with a married man, the answer is NO, I will not support her in that.  I will love her, and I will be there when she chooses to start making the RIGHT choices, but no, I will not condone that from any friend or family member, even my kids should they ever make the same decision.  There are too many risks in supporting someone’s questionable behavior. 

Furthermore, I think you are confusing love and support.  And unconditional love to me really only exists for your kids, and maybe some siblings, and very possibly with some friends, but it’s the kind of love where you would give your life, no hesitation and no questions asked.  While I will always love my ex-H, I can no longer love him unconditionally and I have never had another person besides he or my kids for whom I have had that kind of love.  I would need to know that if I gave my life for him, he would look out for my kids, and he really can no longer make that promise.  He can TRY to make that promise, but he and my kids, by insurance actuarial tables still have a long time on this planet and when he marries OW, he has to make a promise to put her and her children first.  This is why, IMHO, the divorce rate for second marriages is higher than for first—most people can’t really do that, and time proves it.  But, MLC or not when he stands up there and takes her as his wife, “forsaking all others, ” I have to trust that maybe this time, he will keep his promise. 

The problem I see in all this is that there is an expectation that MLCers deserve special treatment.  He wants me to treat him like he does know what he’s doing, like he is rational and whole, and yet the expectation here is that we need to treat them with kid gloves because they are dis-eased.  Well, MLC or not, they still function and would be determined of sound mind in a court of law—I got no choice but to go with that.  And that is not a foundation for a friendship—that is caretaking, mothering, coaching  or a special needs attendant, it is not a friend, and in that regard, he is in no way capable of being a friend to me or our kids. 

Plus there is a need to overlook the betrayal and broken promises.  We had a contract and made promises to each other.  That is not like when your friend misses lunch or you find out she told someone else your shoes are ugly, that’s kinda huge.  I tried to explain the situation to H this way.  He was a major leader in his workplace.  If his boss came to him and told him that he really was not living up to the standards he had, and he found this other person to replace him—the most perfect, most wonderful person who would do great things.  However, given that H, you are a good person and very loyal to the organization, you know more about all the projects have going on than anyone else, we are going to pay you 1/5 of your salary to stay on as an administrative assistant doing all the crappy you already do so that the new leader can focus on the fun and important things, and of course get all the recognition—would you stay?  Why, what is really in it for you?  And like everyone else, this is just me and my sitch, I could not be friends with him until he gives up the alienator, and I am pretty sure I mean it--but you know life changes ;-)!       
   

[Chrysalis]

We were definitely best friends and after BD my ex kept saying he wanted to stay friends and I told him that I didn't have friends who treated people the way he did.  He then asked if he could be a "flawed friend"!  After coming back for a week (after six months with OW) and then going again he stated that we would always have a good relationship...

However, six months on, we have very little to do with each other now.  At work I am friendly but only in the way that I am friendly to other work colleagues.  He tells me nothing of what is going on in his life outside work and I tell him nothing of what I am doing.  This is different from the first six months after BD when we had more interaction so I'm not sure if this is good or bad really.  I certainly don't consider him a friend at the moment and I am quite sure that OW would not allow that to happen anyway!

[Millvina]

The whole issue of friendship with my MLCer is extremely difficult, we have been the best of friends for 36 years. At BD however H announced that he realised that we had only ever been friends (the passion he felt for OW was real love). In the following months we continued as friends but only on his terms.
Regarding friendships with other people my H has cut himself off from everyone including our very oldest and best friends and his family. They have tried and tried to reach him and he has ignored them. By his own admission the OW is the only person he talks to.

[Silmarion]

I read through all the comments and thought about what this means to me.

My H initially mentioned "being friends" with me.  I said I have friends.  We were friends, lovers, partners, etc.  At the moment, it doesn't feel appropriate for me to replace 1bit of our R - the friendship bit. 
I feel it's a cop out.  So he can ease guilt.   I don't believe anything is truly unconditional, including my friendships.  Good friends we can tell each other what we think - good or bad - without fearing losing them.   We all set the limits - conditions.  When they are clear then they might feel less conditional (ie, unconditional).
 At the moment, my H struggles with truth so I think  if we were friends it would be on condition that I didn't say anything to upset him. Those conditions feel very deceitful so I can't play that game.
 What I am trying to do is set my boundaries with H.  Good friends accept your boundaries and visa versa.  Friendship is 2 way.  Not necessarily balanced but def 2 way.     

[Little Chief]

The friend thing is tough.  I don't feel it.  He does.  He says things like "we're best friends" and "You're my real friend".  Again, friends don't treat each other like furniture.  At least my other ones don't treat me like that.  There is no friend bond there.

However, I do think allowing the possibility of a true friendship at a later time, when he's not so nutty, might pave the way home, or at least to a happy co-parenting situation for the kids.  They are all that matter right now, anyway.

[Synicca]

I am glad I started this.....

This is my very own assessment into what my R is with my H.

I come from a spiritual background...I have been raised to believe that "Everything happens for a reason"
That people and events will take place in our lives to change the course of that path in order for US to
learn these valuable lessons God would want us to learn.

I believe...( and this is just me here ) That my H MLC and OW R was "set in stone" It was coming straight
for me whether I knew it or even wanted it to happen.

I do not want to change the course for which my H is taking, because then he wont learn these valuable
lessons that no one else can provide...THAT includes me. I know that I cannot give him what he needs
right now, by way of learning these important lessons that will help him grow and become whole as
a human. This is what I want for him.

Please do not misunderstand that his "cheating" was a complete disgrace to my Marriage and he KNOWS
he screwed up. But if I had screamed, pushed, begged, and maybe even blackmailed him into staying..
(which by the way, I have alot of dirt on him) LOL!! I could very well distroy his R with OW in a heartbeat.
It would have gotten me nowhere.

I have THAT much power to put a big ass wrench in their so called "love" BUT. Why would I do that?

There are many reasons....not just MLC. but because my H as a "person" needs to learn these lessons.
and I WANT him too! Whether he comes home to me, or stays with her. or someone else

AND, because everything is allready written...I have no control over what tomorrow brings. It is what it is.

This phrase: It IS what it is
Simply meaning....That I accept his flaws...BUT I do not accept his behaviour. I have told my H.
not to walk on me, that I am not a doormat...That I will decide what I will and will not do FOR
him.

The only reason..( if you know my sitch) that I even continue with these stupid "fake" convos...
Is because....I really like to see how the OW will twist into the wind and make it ALL about me.

I know my H's R with her...pretty well...I can tell you that if I were to text H with something simple...
like.."D13 needs shoes" This simple comment..sends her threw the roof! Don't ask me why...but it does
and the more she "FLIPS A LID" the more she looks like the worst thing my H has ever done....

anyway, I think I have gotten off topic now....continue:

[Dontgiveup]

This is from one of RCR's newsletters from about a year ago.  It's about Touch and Goes, but mentions a few things discussed in this thread.....friendliness, acceptance, and how the MLCer may have treated the LBS.


Touch-n-Goes are about testing, information fishing, putting out feelers and reassurance. The MLCer feels guilty and ashamed for causing you pain. Will you accept him, be kind and friendly even though he was not that way to you? They are testing both your forgiveness and acceptance and the integration of the two. Accepting the process of the crisis is different than accepting a person as they are now with their history of mistreatment. Remember how in the beginning people told you that the person you knew as your spouse was no longer the person you knew--that person was either dead, no longer existed, on a vacation, abducted by aliens…? That continues to be true. The Monster that was your MLCer is gradually crumbling and the person he will become is not that Monster. Will you be able to love, accept and forgive that new person knowing what the Monster did?

[LisaLives]

I am glad I started this.....

I come from a spiritual background...I have been raised to believe that "Everything happens for a reason"
That people and events will take place in our lives to change the course of that path in order for US to
learn these valuable lessons God would want us to learn.

I believe...( and this is just me here ) That my H MLC and OW R was "set in stone" It was coming straight
for me whether I knew it or even wanted it to happen.

AND, because everything is allready written...I have no control over what tomorrow brings. It is what it is.

The only reason..( if you know my sitch) that I even continue with these stupid "fake" convos...
Is because....I really like to see how the OW will twist into the wind and make it ALL about me.

I know my H's R with her...pretty well...I can tell you that if I were to text H with something simple...
like.."D13 needs shoes" This simple comment..sends her threw the roof! Don't ask me why...but it does
and the more she "FLIPS A LID" the more she looks like the worst thing my H has ever done....

anyway, I think I have gotten off topic now....continue:

And forgive me, I am not judging or being critical, but I think you are too vested.  You are not friends, you just admitted to playing them and enjoying it, and that is not detachment, either--just sayin', seriously, no judment or criticism, we all do what we want, need or believe, but I would not recommend what you are doing to anyone else. 

You are admitting to liking that you have control, but what if it starts to get ugly--do you really want to be there when she goes ballistic and comes to vandalize your house, or who knows what?  That is why I want no part of their craziness.  I never want to give either of them any ammo to use against me.  He wanted out, I gave him out, with NC, and no obligations but a monthly check, there is no arguing with that, the judge ordered it.  You may be paving the way, but you may also be manipulating, intentionally or not, and if one of them comes to believe that, it could backfire.  Of course you know your H and your sitch better than anyone and you have to do what you think is right.

So many people wonder why I am so strict about NC, but I don't want to EVER incite any negative emotion.  I don't want to say S13 needs shoes, I want to just be able to buy them.  That was why I never opposed legal settlement--I didn't want to be at his mercy for anything, there is nothing I need to ask him for and nothing we must communicate about, so he can no longer blame me for anything.  This is his life now.  So, I hope you know what you're doing, but be careful--I would not want to mess with two precarious people... 

Also, do you really believe we have no power to change our lives or those of another?  Doesn't that make everything sort of sad and boring.  I have always been in a helping profession and if I didn't believe I could make a difference, I couldn't do it.  I am not even sure I could have made it through the last 18 months if I didn't believe I HAD to and that I was in control of my life now.  In a way I believe I have a "destiny," but that I control HOW I get there, and I can go kicking and screaming or accept the path, which means making the most of every day, and to paraphrase Paolo Coehlo--when I seek my destiny, the universe will conspire to assist.

Anyway, just be careful, in this world we only control ourselves, and I have seen over and over that it is best to keep a safe distance and have good boundaries with unstable people--I have worked in mental health, so I know enough to be scared...       

[limitless]

This is a very interesting topic.  I'm also glad you started it.

Friends?  No.  I don't think so.  Friends don't treat each other in this manner. I have read the articles and, I believe, that if my H and I are to ever reconcile - we will need to become friends to each other.....I'm just not there, yet.

I do believe that I have detached enough and let go of my anger and hurt enough to be "friendly" to him.  That is, of course, if he is contacting me and being friendly to me.

Hmmmm.  Interesting topic.

No.  I don't think that you can "friend" them out of MLC.  (I know that most all of us realize this).  I do think that being "friendly" in response to their kind and friendly gestures do some "paving the way." 

I just don't think this is something an LBS can do while the MLCer is in Monster or self-destructive, etc.

"Mirror" is the word.....(as opposed to "Grease"). 

One question - Does mirroring "Monster" pave the way, too?  (Just kidding....no need to respond to that).

Limitless