[Stander1964]

My husband rarely treats me badly, outside of having an A.  But, I have only seen monster two or three times, and those were times when I brought R talks.  So, I don't have those anymore and I don't see monster.  He did act cold to me for awhile, but now, it doesn't seem he is giving me the cold shoulder anymore.  But I don't see him very often either.

[kikki]

  Apparently the fog's very inviting, and warm, and comes with a conscience-dulling property, the likes of which we have no concept.  You H can't help it; I firmly believe he is not entirely under his own control now.

Wed2  - This is something that goes around and around in my head.  What is the conscience?  And why is there a complete lack of it in this state.
This for me is one of the HARDEST parts to understand of this cr*p shoot.

Anyone have any further information on this?

[Affaircare]

I took a walk at lunch and started thinking.  Certainly, we are all here becuase we have been treated poorly (at least) by our spouse.  Now I know that being married is not a pre-requisite for the MLC as single people have them too (or so I've read).

So since the consensus is that MLC is something these people HAVE to go through, is their ill treatment of their partners something they HAVE to do as well...or could that be avoided?

I guess my curiosity is whether they all have an underlying character flaw...perhaps selfishness, immaturity, narcissism, entitlement?  I'm not sure.  I know narcissim has been discussed here before...I just thought I'd throw this out and see what people think.

Prior to all this, I would not have attributed any of the above negative characteristics to my H but I certainly would now.  So did he have these negatives before and I didn't see them?  And therefore, it was sure to come out during MLC?  Or are these negatives just a part of MLC and the fog is so great, he could not have helped to treat me like dirt?

Speaking as someone who had an MLC and recovered it is SOOOO discouraging to read these comments sometimes.  I have been in your shoes--my first husband left due to infidelity and treated me horribly--and I do realize that a big cause for statements like this is the desire to figure out what in the world happened!  And yet, I do routinely see people on here basically counting the MLC'er as mentally ill or mentally deficient just because they are going through MLC!  It's disheartening. 

I can not definitively speak for each one of your MLC'ers but let me explain for you what happened to me.  Before my MLC I would have described myself as kind, gentle, warm-hearted, thoughtful, peaceful and fairly mentally healthy.  Perfect?  NO!  But not mentally ill or immature or self-centered either.  Dear Hubby and I have seven children together so as you might gather we truly love children!  LOL.  Well in rather rapid succession, we miscarried and then found out he was not able to father children and then found out I was entering menopause!  His reaction was to withdraw (that's how he deals with something painful) and my reaction to that was to feel like an old, unwanted, unattractive dried up old prune!  Seriously it felt like if I had lit myself on fire and danced naked his response would have been "Huh?"  so I thought,  "Okay I guess I'll find my own interests and do a few things *I* like to do" and I found a game where my role was to draft constitutions and legal contracts in accordance with the rules of the game.  I LOVED it and lo and behold this other male person also found it interesting.  Shortly, we were working together on some constitutions and I'd try to tell Dear Hubby and he'd sort of give me that blank stare like "I have no idea what you mean" or "That sounds utterly boring" so here I had one person whom I didn't know who had passion and interest in something I found interesting, and I had the man I wanted who found those things boring...and thus I thought found ME boring!!

See what I mean though?  There's no mental illness or self-centeredness there ... PER SE.  I believe it's human nature to want to feel young, vibrant and interesting.  I bet most of you wish your MLC'er felt that way about you...and that's why you are ripe for the picking to also have an affair unless you know of the dangers ahead of time and protect yourself.  However, once the desire to feel young, vibrant and interesting is met by someone (anyone) OTHER THAN your spouse, what begins to happen is like a slow degradation into Mid-Life Crisis.  Morally you know that having the need met by someone other than your spouse is "wrong", but feeling young, vibrant and interesting FEELS SO GOOD so you don't want that to end...and the mind is very, VERY good at coping and justifying.  That's what denial is all about: I *KNOW* this is wrong but I like it, so my mind is just going to deny reality and say "The kids won't be harmed" "It wasn't meant to be" etc.  Is it mental illness to be in denial?  Well somewhat it is yes.  And the key to recovery, from what I can understand, hinges on one thing.  Will the MLC'er choose of their own accord to face reality and then deal with it?  Or will they continue to pretend and deny and justify? 

What happens--I think--is that those who recover find a way to reconcile themselves to growing older, losing youth, etc.  They accept it within themselves as just a new phase of life, and one they don't want to go through without the person who was there with them through the OTHER phases of life!  Those who don't find a way to accept it and deal with it get stuck in that mode of pursuing others "to make them feel...." and are those ridiculous 50 year old teenager-types.  They run away from themselves for the entire rest of their lives!

My guess would be that during my own MLC that my Dear Hubby felt very lonely and sad, and yet since I was primarily living in a fantasy in my own head, I did not see the real world or what he was going through.  In my world, I was young, vibrant and interesting--and I took someone's breath away and inspired passion.  I can't honestly say that I paid attention to what he was going through.  BUT I did also know it was wrong, and what woke me up was the day I was packing to leave and I *saw* him for some reason.  Rather than just being involved in my own world, I *saw* him crying because my actions were hurting him.  And that was the day I knew I could NOT do this anymore.  That I did indeed feel bad and like a dried up old prune but that rather than turning to someone else to "make me feel young, vibrant and interesting" I had to face it and deal with it myself and make MYSELF feel young, vibrant and interesting because I am!!

So in conclusion, I do not think this quote is anywhere near accurate:

An MLCer's actions can be cruel because their aim is for pain with the intention of hurting you so that you will hate them, lose hope and give them what they want.

Our aim is to not feel old, ugly and dried up.  Ideally we wish our SPOUSE made us feel young, beautiful and vibrant--but if they do not and someone else does...that feels good.  Thus, although we know it's wrong we will justify it by things like denial and re-writing history.  An MLC'er usually writes it so that the spouse is the "Bad Guy" and thus they'll poke you and hurt you until you snap...and THEN they can say "See?  You are the Bad Guy!  That justifies my adultery to make me feel lively and attractive."  Then loyal spouses sit and ask, "Why do they hurt us over and over again like that?"  Well...during the time when you're MLC your focus is on your own self, not feeling boring and unwanted, and thus why *would* you look at your spouse or the fact they may be hurting?  In the MLC head they would probably say "Well I hurt for years and you didn't care...why should I care now?"  It's definitely not reality-based and yet the cure isn't to say "Oh it's mental illness."  Part of the cure (so to speak) would be to stop the activities that contributed to feeling old, ugly and boring and start again to contribute to the things that create loving, passionate feelings. 

[Dontgiveup]

Affaircare

Thank you for sharing your story.....I know you have alluded to it before.  Based on what you have written, I have a couple of questions for you.  While I understand you feel about that quote, it does not appear you experienced the Monster behavior that so many on this forum have experienced from their MLCers.  Monster behavior can be mean and cruel.  I experienced it from my spouse, as have many on this forum.  What are your thoughts about Monster in relation to the quote?

Also, much of what you wrote seems to be around aging, or the feeling of aging, which we have read is a symptom of MLC.  What do you think about the root cause of MLC versus the symptoms?

From the articles:
•Preoccupation or fear of aging or death
•Vanity: Obsession with appearance
•Dissatisfaction with previous goals
•Life of Accommodation has left him feeling trapped
•Impulsive or Compulsive Behaviour
•Irritability
•Restlessness
•Substance abuse

The above list is comprised of symptoms, not causes. Aging does not cause midlife crisis--it is inevitable; midlife crisis is not.

[Dontgiveup]

I meant to look this up earlier to add it, but forgot.

From Affaircare
"I do routinely see people on here basically counting the MLC'er as mentally ill or mentally deficient just because they are going through MLC"

This is from the article Midlife Crisis Takes Time.  Viewing MLC behavior in that way is a coping mechanism for the LBS.

Though MLC is not a state of true mental illness, I find that it is often helpful for the Left-Behind-Spouse (LBS) to view the behaviour in this manner. It is a coping mechanism; a metaphor that can help us to understand.

"Part of the cure (so to speak) would be to stop the activities that contributed to feeling old, ugly and boring and start again to contribute to the things that create loving, passionate feelings."

I think this is great marriage advice, but I'm not sure this is possible with someone in MLC.....it definitely was not in with my MLCer.

[Millvina]

I think this is great marriage advice but I'm not sure if it's possible with someone in MLC..

I totally agree with DGU, maybe in the long run it will help that I am fitter, healthier, slimmer than I've been for years, maybe at some time he will be interested in all the good things I've been doing, but not now. At the moment these things just say to him 'she's okay so I don't have to feel bad.'

Right from the beginning my H has pushed and pushed to try to make me take the decision to end our relationship. He has told me he wants me to be with someone else and all the other usual stuff. In the beginning his relationship with OW was total infatuation and 'true love', now I'm not sure and am beginning to wonder if he is using it to keep me at arms length, while at the same time saying that I am pushing them together by my 'hard-nosed attitude'.

AC is right about feeling old and boring. He has told me we were a boring couple, old before our time and he developed an obsession with a neighbour who he 'didn't want to turn into'. He was writing songs and all sorts about this guy. The OW is 20 years his junior and the thing he loves about her is that she is such 'fun'.

The question of 'is he selfish?'is one that I have had to wrestle with. After BD he made a big play of
that fact that both he and OW are selfish people and were only going to think of themselves from now on.

Regarding viewing MLC as an illness, I understand ACs view but I do think it's a coping mechanism.
Prior to BD when I was seriously ill my H treated me abominably. Our closest friend, who H has totally cut off despite friends continuing best efforts, said that if you didnt view it as some sort of illness/depression then his behaviour would be so unacceptable and outrageous that you could never have anything to do with him again. My parents feel the same. The MLCer is finding ways to justify his behaviour and I guess we have to do the same.

I think this is a very interesting thread and it would be good to hear more views.

[Thundarr]

Hey Affaircare,

As a licensed mental health professional, I struggle with this not being some sort of mental illness. What you allude to is back to the growing old ideology as a cause of MLC, but I don't understand why so many leave their children behind as well.  I KNOW that growing old was a huge trigger for my W, but I don't understand how she could leave the little ones behind like she has.

Also, more importantly since we are all in this already, what do you suggest about dealing with the MLCer.  Was there anything your H did or could have done that may have opened the door for you to have started dealing with your issues?  My W has already moved out and taken most of her stuff, and I don't see an end in sight to her teenage antics.  I would be HAPPY to do teenagery stuff with her if that would help us to stay together.  Do you have any suggestions that could help with my sitch?

[BonBon]

AffairCare,
Thank you for taking the time to write all of your thoughts and opinions.  I made a mistake initially when I said that every MLCer treats their spouse badly.  Obviously, some have written in to correct me on that.  It was what I assumed based on the voluminous postings here of that sort of thing.  I don't see much about spouses who are kind if however confused.  But I'm sure there are a few.

There are theories of this being a mental issue due to fluctuating hormones, testosterone drops and so forth...and so while I'm not sure myself that MLC is a mental illness caused by organic issues, or whether it's an emotional illness caused by genetics, previous issues that arise anew, or just simply about someone not wanting to age, there is enough bizarre and out of character in many MLCers that I think it is helpful to think of it in this way.  It is not an indictment...it is simply helpful for the LBS to think that perhaps their spouse is "ill".  The alternative in many cases (not all) would be to instead think their spouse is or has turned into a rotten b*astard and many LBS's are unwilling to do that because they fell in love with this person and don't want to think they were wrong to do so. 

At the least, many people believe the MLC is rooted in depression and as you noted, getting old can be depressing.  Depression certainly can be a mental illness.  There is no doubt about that but I will certainly say we can debate this issue regarding MLC.

I have to take issue with something you said so I'm going to quote you below:

"Our aim is to not feel old, ugly and dried up.  Ideally we wish our SPOUSE made us feel young, beautiful and vibrant--but if they do not and someone else does...that feels good."

Well, I don't take issue with the statement that someone making us feel young and beautiful feels good.  Of course it does.  But when you write this, and as was the case with your husband that you wrote of, the assumption is that the LBS does not make the person feel young, beautiful and vibrant.  I'm sure there are many cases where this is the case.
But I am also sure that there are many cases where this is NOT the case.  I can only cite my example and I am not saying it is the exception nor it is the rule.  But here's how I see it and my husband has acknowledged that yes, I did do the following things:

I find my husband to be stunningly handsome.  I have commented on this to him on nearly a daily basis in one form or another.  As for vibrancy, I have always made sure we traveled, and did special things, and each and every day I told him how much I loved and appreciated him and what an all around great guy I thought he was.  I supported every new business venture, new idea he had and so on.  I have never acted old, dressed old, looked old.  To make him feel any more vibrant, I would have had to be a new person I guess.  I can not help the fact that we had been married for 12 years.  I can not help the fact that I'm 50 and he is 47.  But I did my best to make sure we had fun and laughs and that he always felt loved and appreciated and gorgeous to tell the truth.  For every 50 times I have told him how gorgeous he is, I've probably heard the same thing back twice.  Maybe less.  So, if anyone was in need of some appreciation, and some pep talks on how vital they were, it was ME.  NOT him.

I am not saying I was/am a perfect wife.  I am saying though that I take ZERO responsibility in his feeling old.  None.  This is HIS problem not mine.  And I as I have told him a few times in the last year, in his quest for eternal youth, he is the one who made ME feel old, ugly and anything but vibrant. 

And yet, I have not looked for validation from anyone else.  And that is a choice, period.  Based on your theory, it would make perfect sense if sometime in the last three years at least, I decided to have my own little emotional affair. Or maybe just took my feelings out on him.  I did not.  I am not a saint, I have lots and lots of flaws but I took the high road and that was intentional.

So that is my point of view on what you said and so I sincerely hope you don't believe that all these people who have had PA's or EA's or are just dangling their feet above the danger zone of infidelity are doing so because their spouse didn't do their job.  It is simply not true in every case.   

In the cases that are that way, as I said, the MLCer does a stellar job at making the LBS feel the very thing you described....so where does that leave us? 

The good news is, unlike my MLCer, I am NOT going to let him or anyone make me feel old and dried up.  I am not old nor dried up and anyone who thinks that way can take a short walk off a long pier.  Because when I did feel that thanks to my spouse, I realized it was only because I gave him the power over me that he didnt' deserve.  That won't happen again.

Back to the question at hand, I am still digging to see what people think...character flaw or fog of MLC battle on bad behavior? 

[Dontgiveup]

"Back to the question at hand, I am still digging to see what people think...character flaw or fog of MLC battle on bad behavior?"

My vote is fog of MLC battle.  My reasoning is that my ex-wife's behavior in alignment with her core values changed drastically and suddenly with MLC. 

[Thundarr]

I'm with DGU on this.  I cannot believe that my W's core values were thrown out the window in such a dramatic way.  At times, I would swear she is pure evil.  This is true when Monster is present as well as times when Monster does not seem to be present.