[Little Chief]

LL,

I just wanted to speak to forgiveness.  I can't remember if it was RCR or Michele Weiner Davis who said it, but

"Forgiveness is a gift you give yourself".

What I've always taken that to mean is that forgiveness means not letting a moment of pain (or lets face it, months and months of it) own you.  You are not your pain.  You are LisaLives.  We all feel our pain, we should.  But never ever let that pain own you.  That is forgiveness, and it truly is a gift for you.  Your H's remorse is not necessary to give yourself this gift.  See?

[LisaLives]

I wrote something earlier and lost it.  I am really not in as much pain as I seem to have communicated.  I was just wondering from someone who has detached how long it takes to not have those kicks in the gut or will I have them forever and it's normal?  I am prepared for the kick in the gut when they finally announce their wedding, but if they announce their pregnancy, am I supposed to be happy?  Do you get to that point? 

And how do you know when you've detached?  I love Byron Katie and the best books I read about grief and recovery were The Grief Recovery Handbook and The Gift of Betrayal.  I forgive him.  I really do, but is it so wrong to just want him out of my life if he doesn't want to be married anymore?  I don't want to be friends with him and his new wife.  Is that wrong and not showing detachment?  I have worked on me, and will for the rest of my life, but do I have to continue working on us forever?  I did not ask for a different relationship--am I just being a spoiled brat because I don't want to work on one?     

And is it different for standers.  If I really truly was committed to wanting him back, would I believe friendship was a first step?  And is the fact that I really can't imagine him ever getting to a point where I want him back my real hurdle?  I just don't understand why I would invest in a relationship with a man who threw me under the bus once before when I have a lot of other people I could be great friends with...  I feel like he will have the power to hurt me forever--every time he does something with her that should have been mine and I don't feel a need to subject myself to that forever.  I imagine the hurt will be less with time, but does it ever go away totally?     

And maybe my answer will never really be found here because this site is for standers and if you stand forever, you will always pave the way and want to be friends and that's why none of it makes sense to me. 

But really I am not in as much pain as I seem to have communicated.  I like my life, and I think that in itself is painful and scary--that I am truly living the life he wanted in so many ways, without him--that I am having fun and enjoy the absence of his dark cloud and judgment, but then he continues to reinsert himself and her in new and surprising ways every time I turn around and find a new little bit of success.  I was having a great month until he came into town, and he had to be a downer again--maybe that's what's so hard.  Every time I pick up the pieces he comes around and knocks me down again.  There was a lot more than I communicated, but I just want to be left alone to not have to deal with his craziness--so no, I don't think he is detached, and does that make it harder for me to detach?  Will he try to raise my hackles forever and if that's true how tough to I have to be to detach? 

You know I just look at all the other stories on here and I wonder who has the tougher road?  I just want some peace, you know.  I feel like if he wanted out then he should go.  I would stand if I thought it was easier, I did love him, I will love him forever, but I am not going to go back to junior high and fight some other b#$%^ for him!  I feel exasperated, more than in pain.  I have to much to do to start a new career and take care of two teen boys to worry about his narcissistic temper tantrum!  Anyway, now I am ranting!  So many good things are happening at my job this week, and I want to just be happy, but he continues today, to rain on my parade!!!!       

[limitless]

LL,
I will speak for myself, and only myself.  I do not want to be friends with my H.  If he were openly with OW - and introducing her to our kids - I would not want to be friends with either of them.

That said, when I see my H, I am kind.  I do not attempt to communicate with him.  At this point, there is very little contact or communication.  Our last face to face was so that he could ask for a divorce.  He is so immersed in Replay - there is really not much "paving" that can be done - in my eyes.

Regarding your H, he is still way deep in Replay.  Marrying an "old girlfriend" from 27 years ago is an attempt to re-live a time that has long ago passed.  (Replay, Replay, Replay).  My H got involved with his first wife from 38 years ago (when he was 20).....This is truly an attempt to re-do their younger years.  Reality will hit - someday ...just not today.

Being able to communicate with your ex-H on a "friendly" - if not buddy way - is important - because you have kids.  And that "kick in the stomach" feeling that you get when you're around your H (ex-H) and he treats you like a stranger.....as you detach - you will feel that less and less.  It really hurt me to be around my H - in the early days - it is better now.  But, of course, I am not around him very much.

Take care, LL.  And, please keep posting. 

Hugs,

L

[Dontgiveup]

"I am prepared for the kick in the gut when they finally announce their wedding, but if they announce their pregnancy, am I supposed to be happy?"

No, and that's what is great about this site.  There are a few people on here who've had to deal with the MLCer marrying the OP, and there are a few who've had to deal with the MLCer getting OW pregnant.

"I don't want to be friends with him and his new wife.  Is that wrong and not showing detachment?"

I don't think wrong or not showing detachment.

Here is info from the friendship article.  Notice these are for times when friendship with the MLCer is NON active.

No Contact, Friendship is non-active
Monster or Replayers
•Your MLCer is openly involved in an affair.
•Your MLCer is taunting you with the infidelity.
•Your MLCer is taunting you with legal tactics.
•Your MLCer is being Monster, spewing--blame and projection.
Cake-Eaters
•Your MLCer is being needy and wants to lean on you without helping himself.
•Your MLCer wants you to baby and take care of him--S-Mother warning!
•Your MLCer wants a relationship with you and the OW.

"do I have to continue working on us forever?"

From Standing-Clarifying the Concept.
Right now, in the midst of crisis with your spouse working against your relationship, you might be working without your partner. Later, if your MLCer chooses to return, you will work together. I use the term Standing to refer to the solitary period when your MLCer is either uncertain or running away--before a return which may or may not happen. If your MLCer chooses to return, the two of you will rebuild your marriage together.

"would I believe friendship was a first step?"

I do not believe friendship is a first step.  I believe Paving the Way is a first step.  But Paving the Way is not pursuing, nor is it necessarily anything you actively do.  Paving the Way simply means that you do not react to his behavior......which means he will eventually stop reacting because you are not reacting.  Paving the Way will start to make him feel safe with you....which in many ways he already does.  MLC is the fear.

"I feel like he will have the power to hurt me forever"

Only if you give it to him.

"And maybe my answer will never really be found here because this site is for standers and if you stand forever, you will always pave the way and want to be friends and that's why none of it makes sense to me."

Like RCR wrote to you yesterday, it's likely that few will stand forever.  Especially if you are one who takes the view of Standing being like sitting in a hospital waiting room wondering when the doctor will release your spouse from his MLC.

Paving the Way is not about actively trying to catch a fish....it's about respectful interactions with anyone.

"so no, I don't think he is detached, and does that make it harder for me to detach?"

In my opinion....yes, it does make it harder.  Look at how hard it is for someone who has a Clinging Boomerang to detach.

"but I am not going to go back to junior high and fight some other b#$%^ for him!"

From one of the Standing articles:
Standers give up the fight--the power struggle. Thus the MLCer has nothing with the spouse to fight against.  Standing is about Passive Resistance.

[LettingGo]

Well, it sounds as if you are GALing just fine.... but you have many questions as to why his actions still hurt you. Maybe you haven't ACCEPTED that his MLC isn't intentional... depressed people are literally trying to SAVE themselves at all cost.... they cannot THINK straight.... the OW is just another F'd up person, and only a F'd up person can understand and want an MLCer.... she makes it easy and peaceful for him in the beginning, then when it becomes toxic, they feel STUCK out of FEAR. The FEAR is irrational, so you can do nothing to "wake them up" or "get them to see what they are doing that is hurtful".

You have every right to be angry, and I propose that if my husband were lying in a coma for 19 months, I'd be ANGRY... just not at HIM. Anger is an emotion that will eat you up, and don't I know it..... it is "arguing with reality" to be angry with a sick person. So, maybe the more empathy you can feel for someone, regardless of their destructive and hurtful actions, the less ANGER you carry.... IDK. I still get ANGRY, though I've been through the purging of an ANGER STAGE.

When my husband moved in with his OW and signed a year lease on their apartment they found, TOGETHER.... paid for secretly with OUR FAMILY MONEY.... then bought new furniture and a $2000 bed.....I had no CHOICE but to accept that he was going to be gone at least for a year, but that the lease alone would entangle them further and make it harder for him to get out of the affair. ACCEPTING it allowed me to be fairly neutral towards him whenever I saw him, which wasn't often. Spending Christmas with OW and her kids brought out my ANGER again.... who is that detached that it doesn't hurt?

Point is, detachment comes with ACCEPTING your situation.... "loving what is" which is a daily PRACTICE that I don't always follow.... it's ok to not be perfect!!

You obviously still care about your husband.... please don't listen to the advice from real life people who tell you you should be over it by now.... it is THEM uncomfortable with YOUR situation.... since they aren't in it, why do they get to determine how you feel? They'd better hope it never happens to them is all I can say... It's happening right now for my best friend, and she THINKS she knows what she is doing, but I am seeing her swirl, just like I did when she told me to get over it...

When your husband is visiting your neighbors, what is he DOING to YOU?? NOTHING!! You can disagree with his choices, with what he did to his family, marriage, kids.... what he is still doing.... but he is allowed to live his life, even if you disagree. He doesn't live with you, so how is he torturing you? I suspect you do want him back, but feel like you shouldn't because of what he's done. Everything is forgivable, or so I've been told.... IDK... I"m having a tough time with forgiveness right now... I don't know what a restored marriage to my husband would look like cuz he is still a nutcase.... but I do still love him.... his heart, that is.

[Hope for Zen]

L, I agree.  I treat my H friendly - as in courteous and kind, but we are NOT friends.  Friendship is reserved for peole I trust and who care about me.  H, if he ever chooses to do so, would have a lot of work ahead of him to get me to trust him again. 

Lots of work.

As for standing, yes I am standing.  More like standing as keeping my options open though, not so much as a plan for my future. 

[TheNewBecky]

Lisa,   Sorry I can't be there for YOU now, I have to work nights the rest of the week.  Thanks for being there for ME the other night.  I so understand buttttt it does get better if you remember you only have control over yourself and how you handle the situations.  I totally ignore the X.  We can be in the same room and he has no control over me anymore.  But the kicks in the guts is always going to happen because ya'll still have the kids together. They will do FUN stuff with the X while you are home cleaning up this weeks messes.  Don't be to hard on youself--- just learn to ignore the shanaigans for the X. Somethimes they are looking to get a reaction out of you.  You know my feelings on standing.   I'm standing for myself and to make the best possible life for my kids and grandkids. Sometimes you have to admit defeat in a battle to win the war.

I really enjoyed talking to you the other night.  Hope things lighten up for you soon. Take care.

Your friend
TheNewBecky

hugs and understanding from new orleans

[Synicca]

What I see Lisa...(of course we cant read emotions in text form) but what I read here is that you still must love your H.
I see that very clearly...I also see your pain, whether you realise it or not.I do see it.

Your life was ripped out from underneath you as all of ours were. It hurts! and its make us ANGRY! we are ALL entitled
to be angry and hurt...just don't let it "define" you.

Now, I go as far as Being my H's "friend" and I have had Long R talks with my H about us and the OW r. Yep..done
all the things told not to do..LOL!!!

But my version of friendship may be a tad bit different them some, We started out as friends and I want to rebuild
that part because we lost it some years ago. So regardless of what he has done or is doing, I am able to be his
friend...even if he never returned. But that is just me. I don't ask anyone to do what I do. Its all what you can handle
in your own skin. no one elses, right?

I see that maybe your questioning your stand or the lack of stand here...reach in YOUR heart and listen the YOUR truths.
The answers are always there LL....always.

[LisaLives]

Regarding your H, he is still way deep in Replay.  Marrying an "old girlfriend" from 27 years ago is an attempt to re-live a time that has long ago passed.  (Replay, Replay, Replay).  My H got involved with his first wife from 38 years ago (when he was 20).....This is truly an attempt to re-do their younger years.  Reality will hit - someday ...just not today.

That's not my H, he found an understanding young colleague.  He is not trying to go back to a past life, he is searching for parental approval by finally marrying someone in the right field.  But not a big deal, they're all crazy! 

Thanks L and MF--I think your rebuilding process will be good for others also!  I wish I could say I had been that smart but I wasn't.  If it helps anyone, I'll recount part of that here, too.   

I had a lot of things forced on me really quickly.  Needing health insurance for myself and kid with a cancer diagnosis and being forced to close a business put my entire life in turmoil.  I did nothing but react for about a year.  I tried to think about what I wanted and where I wanted to go, but it seemed like every day I had to make some small decision that forced my hand.  When you own a business, it's the little decisions that trip you up, even when things are normal--to renew or not to renew--commitments seem to expire every day.  I tried to think about the business I had, the career I left, what I might want to do in an ideal world and wore out a couple friends by deciding, somtimes in the same day that I would move back home, go back to college on the other coast, or find some rich sugar daddy in China where there are no women...  Yes, I remember giving it more than a minute's consideration ;-)...

I promised myself that I had one year to be insane and in January when that year was up, I sat myself down and said I was done with the insanity, that he was not going to get it together so I needed to get it together.  Then everything just started to happen, and I let it.  Things still weren't going the way I wanted them to, but I tried to be "quiet."  I had a job land in my lap, not a perfect job, but an unbelievable stepping stone that I can work with, and the business and all the other things in my life just started to "work out."  I had to release a lot of anger and work hard on forgiveness--I had a business partner, so I had to go through two divorces at once and really, nothing went the way I wanted it to. 

And after the dust started to settle, I think what I am finally realizing after reading through all the posts others have left here is that I wanted to believe that he was just done with me and could move on.  That once I picked up all the pieces of my life, we could both just go our separate ways and call it done.  I think that what I understand is that I had a really hard time with detaching in the beginning, and when I finally let go a little, when I really went dark becuase I finally realized that no matter how many times or in what way I kept asking the question, I might never get the answer I need--WHY?--he realized he could not detach as easily as he thought and that's why just when I started to get more stable, he started to get more unstable--thus setting my precarious sense of balance off again. 

I have no idea what he is processing or going through and I honestly don't even want to speculate, so in that regard I have detached enough that possibly because I have not let myself think about how he is dealing with moving, moving away from his kids, moving in with her and her kids, starting a new job, an earthquake, a hurricane, getting married, and who knows what else, I did not allow myself to prepare for the fact that he might be a little unsettled and might try to pass that off on me--again--in the same way I had to take the blame for the failure of our marriage.  I guess I figured she would get to do that, and maybe she is, but maybe I am still in the mix--if he can get me to pick up the rope.

And that's it, isn't it, I am avoiding, I know that.  I have dealt with bits and pieces and eaten huge hunks in some periods, but detaching is harder if they won't let you.  Anyway, more processing out loud, but I should be working...     

[LisaLives]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/annette-powers/weathering-the-storm_1_b_944230.html

I love the HP divorce section.  Just when I needed it, this article appeared. 

I admit it, I want to be perfect and I hate when I'm not.  If I could not be perfectly married, I want to be perfectly detached and perfectly stable and a perfect sinlge parent.  But he always finds a way to smash my perfect facade.  I have a friend always likes to remind me "Lisa, there is such a thing as good enough."  I need to start accepting that I can be good enough and that's enough...  Then I don't have to avoid every feeling and situation I can't fix or control...