[zinger]

I've been wondering about many of these same questions a lot lately.  Sure, there are plenty of anecdotal posts on the "Returns" thread, but not a lot from members.  It makes me question how effective these strategies are.  I understand the theoretical framework for many of the strategies, but ultimately, I wonder if an MLCers return is based soley on the each individual mlcer.  I think of how Stayed seemed to have dealt with her MLCer very differently from RCR and HB. 

A lot of places in the forum the following notion gets referred to a lot:

Most MLCers do make it through their crisis.  Most LBS's ultimately have the final says as to whether or not they want to reconcile.

 

Where does that info come from?  sometimes I worry that we are all just blindly quoting one another

Not to be a party pooper but am in a low cycle and questioning everything..

[Dontgiveup]

Zinger

I posted this earlier in this thread.  Though it doesn't directly say the MLCer will make it through their crisis, regretting their actions implies that.  Jim Conway's materials also reference that in his experience, the majority of MLCers complete the process.

From the article Stories and Human Behavior
More common is for a person to regret their actions--often when they are too late because the spouse has closed the opportunity for marital reconciliation.

Here is a reference to the LBS ultimately having the final say.

From RCR's blog Infidelity Statistics:
In Private Lies Frank Pittman said that “the more in-love romantics end up back in the marriage than married to the affair partner a few years later. …Most of the deserted husbands and wives do get to choose whether or not to return to the old marriage.”

[Anjae]

Dontgiveup

So, the journey does not have the same time frame for both, LBS and MLCer. I think it is on RCR articles, that the MLCer crisis has begun quite before BD.
What I sense is the LBS will be in shock, hurt, angry, furious, grieving but, at a certain point, will start to heal, to change. And a day will come when the LBS has moved ahead of the MLCer, that is still on the crisis.

Therefore, the timings do not coincide. I wonder if the crisis, the journey for both spouses, all the work that we have to do on ourselves (and when out of the crisis the MLCer) is more for making each of the partner grow, evolve and, hopefully, a much better person, than for the marriage in itself… I know this idea will not suit well with many of you.

Zinger
Yes, the LBS has the last saying when it comes up to a reconciliation. Imagine my husband would be knocking on my door tomorrow, sincerely wanting to reconcile. It would be up to me to decide if it was worthy or if I wanted it or not. It gets to a stage in which, even if invisible, the dynamics change and, so to speak, the LBS starts to have, and finally has, the upper hand.

[zinger]

Thanks for the replies. I do remember reading pitman and conways books. Thanks for the reminders!  Guess I'm suffering from Swiss cheese brain too!!

Stand on everyone!!

[Anjae]

Thanks for the replies. I do remember reading pitman and conways books. Thanks for the reminders!  Guess I'm suffering from Swiss cheese brain too!!

Stand on everyone!!

We're all suffering from swiss cheese brain! 

Hugs

[Dontgiveup]

Yes, the MLC process begins before bomb drop.  RCR writes that Bomb Drop is usually either during Replay, or initiates Replay.

Jim Conway writes that the crisis builds slowly below the surface, beneath detection.  In simplification, Conway writes that the first part of the crisis is a gradual build up of doubt and anxiety.  He refers to Replay as the middle part.  Then, he writes, there is a gradual coming down from this doubt and anxiety, back toward their core values....only more refined.

In my case, in the months after Bomb Drop, I was able to reflect back to the behavior changes in my wife.  They were subtle and not that much out of the ordinary.  One of the things for example was an increase in her desire to exercise.  She started wanting to run in 5K races.  We also bought her some home exercise equipment, which never really got used, or she would give up on it after a few weeks.

And you are also correct about the marriage thing.  I hope I am not misstating this, but I think RCR refers to marriage as not being 50/50, but 100/100 (again, I hope I am not misstating that).

[Thundarr]

My W all of a sudden became obsessed with this Eating Out Surviival Guide and would bring it everywhere.  She would get very upset when she didn't have it with her, and once went out in the pouring rain to get it out of the van.  She lost alot of weight and grew her hair back out.  I was very stoked as her sex drive went through the roof, but in hindsight I wish none of it ever happened.  It was a great first 4 months of the year, but it nose-dived like nobody's business.

[Anjae]

Looking back I can also trace signs of changes and reflect about certain behaviours. Some were small odd things, like wainting to move to the USA (we live in Europe) for an year to work in some guy's shop in Cleveland or Pittsburg (can´t remember what city it was). Other were more, now, obvious stuff, like buying too many clothes, sleeping less, saying absurd things, obsessing with age, specially how young for his age he looked. He started comparing himself with men 10 years young and measuring how well he "scored" compared to them! 

Well, my husband is still in replay. Its been 5 years! May take a while to be back to core values...

Back to core values after replay makes sense. But what about the LBS? Our core values did not include OW/OM, leaving, not caring for spouse, monster, running, blamming, and all those other amazing traces of MLC.  But nor did the MLCer values include none of those things. If it is hard for us to deal with such change of values it must be really, really hard for a MLCer to realise they have throw away everything they believed in and thought valid.

I would not want to be a MLCer! It is so, sooooooooooooo crazy!!!!

[Freddygone]

This is hard, but we ARE standing. While we are standing we are evolving too. Don't you feel the changes.
If we feel the changes maybe we pull the MLC along, as we get calmer, stronger maybe we can give them some security when they come out of Tunnel. Like the Groundhog on Groundhog day, he peeps out of the tunnel to see if the sun is shining then bobs back.
WE need to have grown, detached and be safe so that we can make a clear judgement without feeling we have to reconcile and also look after the welfare of these poor frightened people, without putting ourselves at risk.
In some ways we need to be like calm parents to a child that has fallen over. They did not mean to hurt us.
Dont get me wrong this has been the most painful experience in my life since my father died when I was young. But what does not kill you makes you stronger. This isn't about me the Stander, we just have to watch and have empathy, something they dont have at the moment.
We need to be the rock they can rely on, and to the Groundhog the sign that the winter is over.
So, we need to work on ourselves so that we are ready before they are, or they will go back in the Tunnel.   

[Anjae]

Great post, Freddy

I know they did not meant to hurt us, that they are hurting as well.

Your image of the Groundhog peeping out of the tunnel to check the sun describes quite well their state of mind. That is one of the parts I find more difficult, after we have grown to have to think out to lool after such a frail person without stoping caring for me.

So, we need to work on ourselves so that we are ready before they are, or they will go back in the Tunnel.   

That is tough work. But I guess it is part of the process. Sometimes I see myself has the lighthouse in the middle of a tremendous storm. The storm lashes out at me, the waves nearly swallow me, it last forever. Or so it looks like. The storm breaks and I, the lighthouse, still stand there, tall,  strong, keeping pointing the way to the ships, not letting them sink.
A bit pretencious, perhaps, but it does help me go through this.