[Anjae]

Not sure, OP. I think it’s a conjugation of factors. LBS moving on, bad experiences with OW, especially if they marry her, realising they really love LBS.

Dontgiveup mentions that if LBS starts to date quickly those MLCers will not rush back. Well, the wives of these men I know divorced them pretty quick and remarried. One of the men married OW and had two children with her. His life with her, according his own words has hell. She was nice, wonderful, everything he had dreamed of while the affair lasted. As soon as she was married she changed. Became possessive, mean, and so on. Unlike wife nº 1, divorce with wife nº2 (OW) was nasty. He told me that it did not took him long after marrying OW to realise he had made a mistake, the big mistake of his life, he now says. And now he only has praise word for his first wife. He had gone after her after the second divorce but she had moved on.

Dontgiveup, I agree with you, after a certain number of years, it is normal for a LBS to want companion/relationship. At some point the MLCer will come out of the crisis. But is is too late. Or maybe not. The LBS may find a companion/relationship that will not last and the MLCer may still have a chance.

[Thundarr]

Not necessarily as a direct correlation.  There are a few LBS who may have already started dating in the first year or two after bomb drop, but we don't see those MLCers rushing back because of that.

A friend over on Lifetwo's W starting wanting to reconnect with him IMMEDIATELY after he had signed the D papers.  She initiated sex with him and actually made the statement that she had hurt alot of people for the first time in her crisis.  Total time from BD to this was 9 months.  OP knows who I'm talking about.

[TrustingMyHP]

What a fascinating discussion. Something I think a lot about even though I'm a mere "infant" in this whole journey.  BD for me was just 8 months ago.  Here are my, rather random, reactions to the issues that have been brought up in this discussion.

My H is an "off and on" contact type.  I hear from him once or twice a month.  Always cordial, kind. 

We don't talk about our R, OW, the future, just keep things friendly.  There's no monster at all anymore.  If anything, he makes "contrite" statements from time to time. 

But he's going deeper into the tunnel with each month, I can definitely feel it.  And the contacts are decreasing as he continues on in. 

Relationship with OW is getting more intense, I think.  At least my intuition tells me she's becoming more demanding.  All according to script.

If I could have a guarantee my H was going to want to reconcile at some future time, even if I knew the time period was going to be 5+ years, I would make the decision today to keep standing no matter what. (I suspect many of us would.)

However, it's my impression standing doesn't seem to work out all that well much of the time for the LBS. 

I base this impression (and obviously that's all it is) on what I've read on this board and the DB board during the 7 some months I've been coming around. 

There's something like 400 people on this site.  How many reconciliations have there been?  Just a handful.  There are another handful, from what I read, that seem to be maybe heading in the reconciliation direction. 

The reconciliations on the DB board seem even scarcer.  Obviously, I've not done an analysis, this is just what it "feels" like to me.  Divorce seems more the norm than reconciliation on both sites.

I understand this site is relatively "young" and that many, if not most, of the posters here are early in their journey.  But the DB site's been around at least a decade. 

There seem to be more divorces, usually around the 2.5 year mark, than other outcomes. 

That's depressing and discouraging.  But not enough to make me want to give up.  I get sad when I think about the challenges for me in the future but, at the same time, a big part of me does believe in the MLC process and that my H is simply not in his right mind at this time. 

When I first found this site I was so psyched because RCR's articles are so sensible.  Here was hope in a seemingly hopeless sitch! 

Where else do LBSs get encouragement to stand and detailed directions on how it's done?  Precious few places.  So I started out here with high hopes that standing was the answer and that it would work out for me.  Now, I'm not so sure.

Don't get me wrong.  I'm still committed to standing.  For how long, I don't know.  But at least until H divorces me (if it comes to that) and maybe until when/if he marries OW or someone else.  And (who know?) maybe even beyond that.

I hope those things won't happen.  But I'd be a fool to think that there's not a significant probability they could happen.

As to dating.  Well, yeah, I really miss male companionship.  Big time. 

But I also know I'm in no condition emotionally for any kind of romantic relationship, even a casual friendship with a man, until I've learned much more about who I am, what part I played in the demise of my marriage, the mistakes I made and who and what I want to be when I "grow up"!

I've been married 38 years.  If you put any stock in that statement that for every year of marriage it takes one month to recover from abandonment, I need 38 months of healing. 

Given that I've already put in 8 months, I've got 2.5 years before I'm going to be "ready" for my next relationship.

So, I tell myself I'm going to look at it like I've gone to a junior college and am working on my associate's degree in "marriage recovery"!

2.5 years is about the minimum time H will continue to be in MLC isn't it?  Well, I know it could be a lot longer but the 2+ year timetable is an optimistic number.  So, I'll see what's happening then. 

In the meantime, I have a lot of therapy, recovery, reading, writing, GALing, traveling, thinking, hoping, praying, enjoying and living to do!

TMHP

[Rollercoasterider]

Dear friends,
Here is some clarity from me about post #12.
 
The OW, my ex-husband’s new partner, was my close friend. I had actually suggested they get together in a joking way, well before our divorce (we remain very close to this day, though spotty for a couple years). She moved in with my ex days after our divorce was final, a few weeks before my new partner moved in with me. My light-bulb moment had nothing to do with her (they’d already been together for nearly a year). It had everything to do with confronting what I had lost, through my own introspection and with some help from a book about affairs (to start). That helped because I could see the universal nature of our experience…That LOTS of people in good marriages “succumb” to outside love.
 
My husband and I do not see what happened as an MLC. We see what happened as us both having lost connection to each other, and more important to ourselves (and so of course, we lost connection with each other). He could see I was not meeting some of my deepest and most precious needs in our marriage (and at the time, we thought that was about the marriage, and later realized that was not exactly right). 
 
We never use the word “abandon” because it implies blame and judgment, the quickest way to create resentment between us (or anyone for that matter). He supported me leaving the marriage, even though it was very painful, bc he wanted to see me meet those needs  and he honestly saw that our marriage was  not supporting those. He didn’t want to stay married to me if we couldn’t support each other meeting those deepest needs. He, too, realized he hadn’t met many of his own deep needs for years in our marriage (and at the time, we believed it was about the marriage, but later learned it wasn’t).
 
We loved each other enough to give each other freedom. But of course, we had the miracle of realizing that we *could* meet those needs within our marriage, and to experience our own freedoms from with our partnership. We also never considered me as having ‘abandoned’ him or the children, as—at the time—we thought that our very close proximity and friendship would simply make our family bigger. We truly believed that to be the case, and I still believe we would have come close. And I thank all the stars in the sky, that we get to make our family *together*, this way, bc I know it is so much better for us all. But no one in our situation saw anyone ‘abandoning’ anyone else..
 
I didn’t have an EA. I had strong feelings for a man outside our marriage, and I was totally honest with both him and my husband. True, I felt love and lust and all that, as in an emotional affair. But we were all totally honest at all times. No sex until post-divorce. In our view, having an affair is about secrecy. Also, the affair literature is basically brutal when it comes to humans having feelings outside their primary attachment bond…which, in reality, is totally normal. To fight that, is pain.
 
We have come to a very deep awareness that this extremely universal experience happens to the best of us.. Humans are primed to fall in love with other humans (see my post Sex at Dawn Juan). We are not meant to be monogamous, and monogamy is damn hard work. Since we’ve learned more about this, it has brought us the deepest healing yet (the affair literature simply brought me anger, hatred, and blame). Also, we have a culture that isolates us from one another and community, and in many ways, is inhumane. My latest blog post, VOL-DIVORCE touches on this. This, too, has been an incredible wake-up call as to why so many of us are fleeing our marriages.
 
I hope this helps clarify some of our perspective. I’m working on our memoir so there will be a lot more depth once that’s done.

[Rollercoasterider]

I just wonder if counselling everyone that if they just wait long enough their partners might come back actually interrupts the healing process (or gets it stuck after a number of months) for people whose spouses simply won't return or even experience true regret unless reality forces them to acknowledge that they have really lost the LBS for good.

You titled this thread Standing vs. Moving On which is actually a misuse and misunderstanding of both concepts. I know what you mean and you really seem to be talking—at least initially—about dating.

I’ve said this so many times and people just don’t seem to pay attention.
Standing isn’t still. Moving on is something everyone should be doing as a part of Standing and if they are not Standing. Moving on, moving forward, GAL, whatever you call it, it’s creating a fulfilled life for your Self. Standing should never be about waiting. Just because a person is choosing not to date does not mean they are waiting. What about all the widows and widowers out there who choose not to marry again—are they waitting to die?

Move forward, move on, get a life…basically keep living or start living; there is no pause button.

In which case counselling people to wait until they are emotionally healthy to start a new relationship would seem wise, giving them advice on working on co-dependancy issues remains wise, and information on healthy habits to take into a new relationship as well as signs of being ready to be able to handle a new relationship might be helpful.

That is a main purpose of Standing. For me and for many the true purpose is to save the marriage and saving the Self becomes byproduct. But Standing is a Grace period in which a person puts there decision to end the marriage on hold—often just because emotional turmoil is not a healthy time to make life-changing decisions. Some Standers are Covenant Keepers and thus they will Stand for a lifetime. But I call it Standing instead because that is not so stringent and it religion is not a requirement.

I have to admit that I do not know that I would have Stood forever; at Bomb Drop I was 32 and childless. Many of you older than I was—and are still older than I am. You are beyond your childbearing years and you invested those child-raising years with your spouse. Me, I investd my Self and my future with Sweetheart, but for us it was a future we had not yet realized—we’re still trying to realize the children part. It’s not a requirement or anything, but I think the longer a couple has been married, the older the LBS is and perhaps the ages of the children—who may be adults will increase the likelihood that a person will Stand. Now I have nothing to base that on other than thoughts, but I still had not created the parenting part of my life. I was usually the youngest Stander in the group and 6.5 years later that is still true—though now there are a few more my age.

My hypothesis (that some MLCers don't see the light until the LBS is in a new relationship) suggests that for some standing was never going to work and so the LBS may as well move on.

]It's my impression standing doesn't seem to work out all that well much of the time for the LBS.

This is one of those common misconceptions. Standing isn’t supposed to work—well, other than that it is supposed to work on you. I know, I said my purpose was to save my marriage, but don’t confuse my personal purpose as a Stander with general purpose of Standing. Most Standers start out with the primary purpose being the personal purpose of saving their marriages and they progress to where their primary purpose is saving their Self and saving the marriage , though still important, becomes seconday—or even tertiary.

And maybe ways to keep working on themselves even once in a new relationship would seem to be just as necessary as giving people advice on how to salvage a marriage or reconciliation if a MLCer comes back... I know that that is not the purpose of this forum, this forum wants to see marriages saved (as do I!) but I wonder if RCR needs a sister site for people who feel that standing has ended, that they wish to continue to work on themselves, they want to maintain a reasonable relationship with the old spouse especially if children are involved and still require dealing with MLCer help for that,  but are venturing back into the world of relationships.

Other than the last clause, that is par tof what this site is for and about. What it is not is a site about dating or starting a relationship—other than with your original spouse. But all that other stuff is part of this. Yes, the primary purpose and focus is Standing, but I know the odds.
As I say in the Mission Statement, not everyone here will choose to Stand…and yet all are welcome.

Everyone is looking for a magic potion and when some of you find me, you think you’ve found it. Don’t I wish. My goal is that by educating and offering a safe place for support I can prevent divorces—thereby reducing the divorce rate. But will the rate of regulars at this site be more marriages reconciled than ended? Maybe someday when my message has wider spread and people are more open to it—I do think it is possible. But for now it’s still small.

[Dontgiveup]

Thundarr

I appreciate your exception.  That exception would be extremely rare.  I don't know the story obviously, but based on her behavior and time frame you indicate, color me skeptical she was experiencing MLC.

[Thundarr]

DGU,

She did seem to meet all the criteria, and her H says she was going through something well before BD and he didn't recognize it till much later, as did we all.  She did have a PA and his finding out and confronting her about that post signing appeared to be a catalyst for her beginning to wake up.  They are still not reconciled, and he does not think she is out of it yet.  My point was just that the thought of losing the spouse for good was enough to at least bring her to a point of clarity.

I want to go on record to say that I strongly disagree with the letter from the lady from the other site.  We are not made to be monogamous?  Excuses, excuses.  There is temptation in the world, but people can be extremely happy by not giving in to it.  So, she and her H decided they would be happier getting D'ed so they could sleep with other people?  Good for them.  It makes me wonder if they both may be still in some sort of MLC, or if they just weren't the type to get married in the first place.  I would be interested to see the circumstances behind their marriage.  I won't judge them, but still I think she should speak only for herself and not generalize her beliefs to the overall population.  Just my .02.

[Covenant for Life]

I disagreed with several points in that letter.  The line about men and women not being made to remain monogamous made me want to scream.  And how about her countless attempts to say that they never used the word "abandoned?"  Hmm... maybe that made her feel better, but I doubt her children would agree.  She broke up a marriage and a family.  She left her husband.  That sure seems like abandonment to me whether she wants to call it that or not.  She needs to take responsibility for her leaving and not using a certain word just because she would feel judged if others used it is pretty immature.

I wonder if she has ever heard of the word covenant.  Lifelong vows.  For better or for worse until death parts us.  She does not have a God given right to pursue her own happiness while destroying her family and the lives of her innocent children.  Maybe she needs to learn the art of self control.  She made a commitment.  That letter was just another example of what is soooooo wrong with society today and why so many marriages end in divorce - whether MLC is a cause or not.  I am thankful for her children's sake that her family was put back together again.

Hopefully, she has matured the second time around.  No marriage partner can satisfy all of your needs anymore than you can satisfy theirs'.  And what - once you discover that - do you do???  Leave and join up with someone else who also cannot satisfy you.  Maybe if people stopped being so selfish we would have more precious children growing up in stable homes where both parents put the needs of the children, the family, and the marriage ahead of their own individual desires.  It is called loving one another.  God's two greatest commands are for us to love Him and to love one another.  He did not say anything about being in love with ourselves.

So, thanks, Thundarr for stating your opinion to this letter.  It made me feel freer to express mine.

[Thundarr]

I disagreed with several points in that letter.  The line about men and women not being made to remain monogamous made me want to scream.  And how about her countless attempts to say that they never used the word "abandoned?"  Hmm... maybe that made her feel better, but I doubt her children would agree.  She broke up a marriage and a family.  She left her husband.  That sure seems like abandonment to me whether she wants to call it that or not.  She needs to take responsibility for her leaving and not using a certain word just because she would feel judged if others used it is pretty immature.

I wonder if she has ever heard of the word covenant.  Lifelong vows.  For better or for worse until death parts us.  She does not have a God given right to pursue her own happiness while destroying her family and the lives of her innocent children.  Maybe she needs to learn the art of self control.  She made a commitment.  That letter was just another example of what is soooooo wrong with society today and why so many marriages end in divorce - whether MLC is a cause or not.  I am thankful for her children's sake that her family was put back together again.

Hopefully, she has matured the second time around.  No marriage partner can satisfy all of your needs anymore than you can satisfy theirs'.  And what - once you discover that - do you do???  Leave and join up with someone else who also cannot satisfy you.  Maybe if people stopped being so selfish we would have more precious children growing up in stable homes where both parents put the needs of the children, the family, and the marriage ahead of their own individual desires.  It is called loving one another.  God's two greatest commands are for us to love Him and to love one another.  He did not say anything about being in love with ourselves.

So, thanks, Thundarr for stating your opinion to this letter.  It made me feel freer to express mine.

You're very welcome, CFL, and I will say you stated the points much better than I did.  That's why I wanted to carry over your whole post.  Good job!!

[OldPilot]

No marriage partner can satisfy all of your needs anymore than you can satisfy theirs'.  And what - once you discover that - do you do???  Leave and join up with someone else who also cannot satisfy you.  Maybe if people stopped being so selfish we would have more precious children growing up in stable homes where both parents put the needs of the children, the family, and the marriage ahead of their own individual desires.  It is called loving one another.

The part in bold really resonated with ME.
Having read all the marriage builder books about "HIS NEEDS" "HER NEEDS"
and what you should do to fill those "NEEDS" I guess you can lose track of what is really important.

SELFISH  - well that is a MLC trait in a  nut shell, so when it is all about NEEDS and
all you hear is about them being SELFISH, you know it is MLC.

I agree with Thundarr  CFL - great post.