[stayed]

It's a process lpxpe!  A long process, sometimes when you think you have it pretty much figured out... WHAM... you don't know nothing!  You are doing great dear.  Still being on your feet is an achievement with this crap.  Also, it takes a good couple of years or even longer to actually be able to see ANY GOOD that could possibly come out of this. 

Like most things, once you actually get through it, with or without your marriage, there is a feeling of achievement.

hugs Stayed

[LisaLives]

But I think what so many people are saying here is that mentally and emotionally they CAN'T move on until they cut that invisible rope that is "STANDING" for their marriage.  I think as people, and especially as mothers, we feel a pull every day to be the best that we can for different ends.  I have always felt that standing for me, for my kids, for my marriage, for my career force me to invest in different aspects of my life and personality.  And ultimately I decided that I am standing for my kids. 

And in that regard, I was explaining to my S14 yesterday that every single day we make THOUSANDS of choices, from which teeth to brush first to how to treat the people we love.  Some of them are more important than others, but each one changes us, if only for a second.  And more than anything, happiness and love are choices.  If I choose to spend an extra ten minutes in the shower, for myself and know I am using all the hot water, I may be choosing happiness, but I am not choosing love for anyone else in my house, and ultimately, am I choosing happiness if I make others around me miserable?  What I try to teach my kids every day is "CONSCIOUS LIVING."  That all our choices matter and that we should not walk through life unconsciously but with awareness of how we impact the people we love, or might love, or love us. 

And that is where standing for my marriage has always been hard, because every single day, I would make different choices FOR HIM, and not for me, my kids, my career.  Standing to me always meant putting him first.  And I can't do that, I just can't.  If I could cognitively believe that by standing for my kids and for me was somehow equal to standing for my marriage, I could call myself a stander, and in some ways I do, contrary to the opinions here and RCRs belief.  In many ways I believe I will be standing for my marriage until I marry another, and I actually don't think I could ever do that, I just don't see the purpose since marriage to me is about kids, and I don't intend to have more of those...  Whether I date or have sex, live with another, as far as I'm concerned does not matter because none of that closes the door on R if he chooses it.  And in MY reality, if he expects me to forgive ALLLLLL his madness, then he would have to accept my conscious choices to make the most happiness I can for myself and my kids while he is having his narcissistic tantrum. 

The only thing I don't buy is the double standard, that MLCers can do anything while "standers" sit back and try to become the person their MLCer wanted while patiently waiting.  Because I could work on the things he said bothered him, but I LIKE some of those things about me.  And truly the only way to learn that was to date and see what other people like in me--otherwise the only perspective I have is his.  Anyway, I feel here the same dilemma I felt, STANDING for your MARRIAGE is an anchor in your journey to yourself, I don't see how it can't be.   

[Thundarr]

Hey Lisa,

First off, as always you expressed yourself so eloquently and your points are very solid.  I have some of the same concerns you do, but have a few differing perspectives. 

I have given alot of thought about how or why we would need to change ourselves if this is really all about the MLCer.  Common sense would dictate that we would need to stay true to ourselves as they should want to return to their old lives once they come out of this.  But, I've been communicating with another LBSer on here who is divorced already and his perspective is that we change almost like the MLCer is changing in that we take on new hairstyles, clothes, habits and such so that they will notice us and not associate us with their old selves as much.  That makes sense to me.  I have no interest in changing what I like about myself just because my W used that as an excuse to do what she did.

For heaven's sake, she told me she disliked 95% about me.  How would I change that much?  Why would I ever want to?  I like what I like and that's final.  I'm not going to give up my hobbies just so I can compete with some OM somewhere down the road.  If it comes to that, count me out anyway.

She also told D10 that she was divorcing me because I liked Britney Spears  And yesterday told her that she was divorcing me because I was irresponsible.  She said this because I left D10 in the toy section as Wal-Mart (in sight!!) while I went to get something from another aisle.  I guess I need to become a different person.   Maybe even change my name as well, huh?

I will take this time (and it's no gift, btw) to work on myself as I really have nothing better to do.  I won't do it so that she might come back, though.  I also stand for my family, and I consider her part of that.  I want the prodigal to return to the flock (soon!!) but have to keep moving forward in life.  If the right person comes along and W is still treating me like crap with no signs of turning around, who knows.  I know I won't grow old alone hoping she will come back someday.  I'm glad to see that you are also leaving the door open to R if your husband does the heavy work.  By my definition, that makes you a stander but just not one that's standing still.

Thank you again for your contributions!!

[Freddygone]

Hi Lisa and Thundarr, these are interesting points you are making and I see the relevance. My first and immediate reaction at BD was consern for my wife and why did she feel it was necessary to do this?
Then I admit to a little panic. This had been going on for 2 years while I was clearly sleepwalking. Now 2 years after BD I am 59 and, let's be fair, time starts to be like sand in an hour glass.
Maybe it is different for men I dont know, but I have had more help from ladies with this problem than men. Even my male friends shy away from help. They will discuss, but not give any help because they are bewildered too.
But from ladies I have had much support and encouragement to be strong and stand and they make it clear that I need not be alone.
So any of you guy thing you are heading for being alone, if you are looking after yourself mentally and physically, this experience is like a mental gym that simply tones you up for whatever the future holds. And it seems that age is not against you.
So going back to what Lisa was saying, I dont think you have to lock yourself away and wait for this MLC to blow over. Have a life and learn and maybe your prince will come back, but there are other princes if he drags his heels. I think the MLC has a race to recover before the stander forgets what they were like before MLC. But for us, life should not stand still while those grains of sand are falling through the hour glass. Particularly if their are not so many left.

[stayed]

Everything about this situation is confusing LisaLives.  I suspect that most people in here, fluctuate like crazy from one minute to another about what they want to do, or think they want to do, or hell, even feel they must do.  There is no 101 Course:  Help, My partner has betrayed me, gone crazy and dumbed me like last nights trash!   

This event in my life, sent me on a Journey for My Soul.  Always thought of myself as strong, happy and independent, then my h went crazy, betrayed me and left me for another woman.  Under that tough persona of mine... was a JELLY FISH... a spineless, scared jelly fish.  I was forced to find where Stayed went, or was... hehehe... not sure, which.  STANDING is how I found me. 

I don't think STANDING changed me, I really didn't think I needed changing, just that the real me, got lost somewhere along the way, while being a wife, a mother and whatever other hat I felt I needed to wear.  I actually think it helped me get the real ME back.

I wrote this about standing on I See The Light.  Your honesty in declaring your non-standing status, seems to have triggered some very interesting discussions.  I for one, think it's great. 

When LBS's question why they are STANDING, I confess I find it slightly amusing.   I remember thinking and feeling the same way.  Then one day, it dawned on me, what else could I do?  I was so shell shocked, so scared, so heartbroken, I was of no use to anybody else.  Whether I divorced my h that very day or waited indefinitely, I was still going to feel like "hell".  There really was no other OPTION but to STAND, as I simply was in no condition to make any sort of decisions.  Plus, divorcing, moving on, whatever, was not going to change the process, as there was only one way out of this and that was through the pain. 

Frankly, I never felt I was STANDING for the marriage.  I was STANDING until I could cope on my own.  Until I could make rational sensible decisions.  I was standing until I could walk and chew bubble gum at the same time.  I was standing until I could accept that 29 years of my life had not been wasted.  That we had not been MISERABLE and UNHAPPY that entire time.  In fact life had been pretty damn good for most of that time.  Learning how to move on, without feeling like I was DEVALUING 29 years, that was the hard part.

Of course you are going to question what you are doing!  That's part of the process.  It's even possible that quite a few of you will one day decide your STAND is over.  That you are ready, willing and able to move on without the old marriage, old spouse... with JOY even! 

As long as most leave this FORUM feeling better about themselves, able to take control of their lives and resume a happy, contented, healthy life, then this FORUM has served its purpose. 

hugs Stayed

[BonBon]

Lisa, I agree with your quote here and it really brought me back to two years ago when all this stuff started:

The only thing I don't buy is the double standard, that MLCers can do anything while "standers" sit back and try to become the person their MLCer wanted while patiently waiting.  Because I could work on the things he said bothered him, but I LIKE some of those things about me.  And truly the only way to learn that was to date and see what other people like in me--otherwise the only perspective I have is his.  Anyway, I feel here the same dilemma I felt, STANDING for your MARRIAGE is an anchor in your journey to yourself, I don't see how it can't be.   

In those early days just after bomb drop, all I could think about was how I could change to make my MLCer love me again.  I thought of working on my butt to make it cuter (not kidding), buying sexier clothes, avoiding saying anything petty or negative, trying new things, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.  Then I stopped.  I've written of this here many times but essentialy what made me stop was after a year of trying to be whatever I thought he wanted me to be was and seeing those efforts were fruitless, I asked him what else I needed to change to make him happier.  The answers he gave, having already used the answers I tried to change, were RIDICULOUS.  THAT was when I realized he was insane.

Everything changed right then and there.  I stood up, reared up actually, and told him I would NEVER ask him again what he did or didn't like about me and I told him he was insulting and ridiculous and so forth.  Most importantly, I told MYSELF that I might be standing, sure, but NO WAY was I going to change for HIM.  Any valid complaints he had about our marriage had already been worked on but they were small and few.  The rest was CRAP and if he wanted to be married to somone else, he should have thought of that a long time to go and frankly, he was free to go ahead and do it now.  I might have been able to watch him change and let him do his thing but he was NO LONGER GOING TO HAVE THAT POWER OVER ME!!!!!  If he wanted to change, fine...and if I was going to change at all, that would be because I needed to in my heart and my soul and perhaps my brain but NOT in my dress or appearance or my lifestyle or in any ridiculous and petty way that he mentioned.

I made that abundtantly clear and I have stated it on more than few occassions when it needed it to be said.  I have not waivered nor will I.  This is the place you get to where you realize, you won't sell your soul just to keep someone in your life.  The chips will fall where they may.

[Anjae]

Lisa, yes, in a way I need the invisble rope (and the visible one of still legaly married) to be removed.

I've never changed because of what my husband would like me to change. Well, I don't even remember we wanted anything about me to change. Months before he left and BD we both wanted to change our livestyle, were thinking about having children, move house, etc.

My changes come becouse of all this process, of all that had happened (and not just with my marriage/husband but also with my family) during this 5 years.

The result if that the husband that he was before left/BD does not fit the nowadays me. Let alone the man he is currently. If we are standing waiting for our spouses to go back to what they were, well, that will not do for me. Because I'm no longer that woman who liked and had everything in common with my husband, include lifestyle. My lifestyle is very different now and I don't want the old one back.

Of course that some things did not change in me. Of course that some of the changes may be due to age, to had become older. Whatever the reason, my old husband does not do, current husband is not even a possibility. So, I don'te see much sense in wait for him to change back to what he was, since if it is only that it will not do.

[Red Star]

Exactly, BonBon

BeStar

[Freddygone]

I find myself agreeing with everything the girls are saying. But it applies to men too.
My wife not long after BD had criticised everything from my teeth, parentage and foot size, said on reflexion,
 
'why did I do this?, I had it all, lovely home, friends, money, a life most would envy, a perfect husband, safe , quiet life, but it was not enough'.

Then, she continued her affair with this degenerate but professional man who has never been married, never had children but was in his second relationship which had lasted 17 years, and she told me one argument she had took her 2 days to calm down from.

So you see, this is not about us, not how big your but is or anything you can fix. You change yourself for YOU. 
This is about something different. I mean simply that it is different. 
They have to try something different.
In an earlier message someone said 'Was dumped by my partner' or something similar. If only that were true.
We don't get dumped, that would be easy, we get put aside  but not discarded.
They think we are 'in reserve' like some potted fruit.
Well I ain't going to be Jam for anyone. I am top quality preserve.
They have to fight to get you back.

[stayed]

Freddygone, I actually agree with you about making them FIGHT to get you back. I also believe they must be held accountable.  This is an illness yes, but they are AWARE of what they are doing.  To simply allow them to return with little to no accountability, is simply unacceptable. 

In order to have a better, more respectful, appreciative, loving marriage... a totally new marriage, there will have to be a lot of changes.  Changes from both side, not just one.  And HONESTY is the most important change of all... no more keeping your feelings to yourself... honest explanations of what both of you are thinking.  Whether you really, truly like this or that....

Man, a lot of changes...

hugs Stayed...