[LettingGo]

I met Mamma in Wildwood and she's a hoot!! There aren't enough hours in the day for us to talk, LOL!! Her daughters are both beautiful, just like her.... just wish we had more time to bond....

Great description of your husband and his happy new life, Mamma.....

I still think about the story your sister told you about meeting her husband at the divorce attorney's and his attorney saying "Ok, well let's talk about this divorce!" and her husband saying "DIVORCE!!? I don't want a divorce!! I've been in love with her for 25 years!" and his attorney saying "I think we're done here...." 

Just really strikes me as FUNNY!!! Glad to have you back on the forum.... it's been too serious around here while you were on vacay, LOL!!

[Buggy31]

Okay
I'm going to be a nature nerd hehehehehehe but that makes sense doesn't it...not only in terms of what we know as males and females but biologically.

Biologically a MALE doesn't want anyone to claim his reproductive partner cuz he needs to get all her viable eggs and thus pregnancies...thus sex is a threat

A FEMALE wants a male to stick around....be committed...to help in investment in her offspring....thus lack of emotional attachment is a threat

It's all about the survival of offspring...and here is where MLC totally DEFIES even BIOLOGY..because RARELY in the natural world would a MALE or FEMALE abandon there own offspring and threaten there survival...and certainly not to invest in another's offspring....but they do in MLC 

MLC nonsense I tell ya

and that makes no sense at all

[Synicca]

Awsome LG...I wish I could have made a special trip to NY and had a visit with both you guys!!

Buggy, I actually have considered that whole way of thinking....if you look at the way that "animals" in the wild are.

It would make total sense to see it that way. BUT, MLC has no bounderies of any kind. UGH!!

[Mamma Bear]

 Syn , But MLC does have boundaries  If you need to be empathetic, kind, considerate, thoughtful,outgoing,informative,honest and loyal they are not going there. Like they have a shock collar on them if they cross over into those areas.... ' zap!     

[Synicca]

LMAO!! ooohhh, yah I guess your right!! forgot about THOUGHS bounderies...hehehehe

[Thundarr]

Welcome back Mamma!!! Lord, how we missed your sense of humor!!

Buggy, I think you and I are on similar pages with this.  Females are biologically programmed not only to care for their offspring, but to keep the male around to protect the flock.  Males are programmed to protect their reproductive partner from other males.

Does that fact maybe tie in to how MLCs seem to happen to males and females as they near the end of their reproductive lives somehow?  Hmmm.....

I have often pondered how powerful the force must be that took my W not only from me but from the little ones.  She made the comment the other day that she would not want them with anyone other than me, and this was less than a minute after telling me she didn't give  a _hit about me.  It seemed like two different brain functions were firing at different times there.  One was MLC, the other SEEMED to be the real her speaking.  Who knows.  For all I know, I may have them backwards.

[kikki]

Just had a thought.

Maybe the EA doesn't cut to the quick quite so much in this instance BECAUSE I know it's not what we had. 

H's such a mess, he tells me often he isn't ready to have a relationship with anybody - it's all so superficial and shallow and they know it.

Now, if he was in his right mind, and came to me and announced that he was very sorry, but that he'd met the woman of his dreams, (oh that's right - I was the woman of his dreams!) then I'd be feeling differently about it all in some way....

[LisaLives]

As far as I'm concerned EAs are deep friendships and the sad fact is that my H never had one, except possibly with me but I am not totally sure, until he met OW.  I have had lots of EAs, even with men, but none of them ever threatened my M.  I am not uncomfortable with my H having people, even women, to whom he goes for support and advice, even if he discloses intimate details about our life.  It is only when that R crosses into actual intimacy and betrayal that it matters to me.  And I could even forgive a PA (not hundreds of them, but one, maybe two, I don't know where the line is)--and, I did, early in our marriage, as long as there was no EA involved, it's the two together that make it hard. 

But, the real kicker for me is not even the two together, it was having both and making it public.  Because that made it a betrayal to our kids--our family--and all the people who cared about us.  That's the part that I can't understand or forgive.  When he needed to insert her into my life, my kids, my town, my friends, my everything--that was the part I am not sure I can ever forgive.  That was the part that made everything that was "us" somehow meaningless.  That he can so easily insert B where A used to be and not feel any sadness, shame, remorse, or worry for what our kids would think or feel--that was the ultimate betrayal. 

A friend was telling me a story of an amazing wedding sermon where the highlight was when the pastor told the couple, and I am paraphrasing, obviously, but he said:

Everyone asks me what love is, and I'll show you, but first I want you to know that what you have here is not love, you have a certain amount of affection, respect, blah blah, and a fair amount of lust and infatuation, and you are willing to make a promise--that is the first step in love.  But if you want to know what love is, I want you to turn around.  (So they did, they turned around and faced the crowd of over 1000 people.)  That is love.  Love is the people who support you and your marriage, and your family, through the sweet times, like today, and the really hard times, because there will be those, and one day you will know love because you will sit out there and see people like you that you have nurtured continue to grow that love for another generation--that's love. 

And that's what my H threw away.  When my friend told me that story, it finally put into words what I felt but could never explain--that love is longevity of commitment, the end, not the beginning, the fruit, not the seed.  It's only love if it stands the test of time, not if you can so easily abandon it when the going gets tough.  But, that's just me... 

[Synicca]

Lisa,

That was very heartfelt once again....Can I just ask you something? What if your H really is in MLC and he isnt in his right mind
and what if YOU are the one that can hold that bond together until he some how see's he needs to take a different path? What if THIS is your journey? Hold onto that "fruit" and see what happens? What if all this feeling inside yourself is the real truths of LisaLives?
The on that can hold onto the torch?? I really hope that made sense??  LOL!! and by no means am I trying to change your mind on your standing postition.

[LisaLives]

Lisa,

That was very heartfelt once again....Can I just ask you something? What if your H really is in MLC and he isnt in his right mind
and what if YOU are the one that can hold that bond together until he some how see's he needs to take a different path? What if THIS is your journey? Hold onto that "fruit" and see what happens? What if all this feeling inside yourself is the real truths of LisaLives?
The on that can hold onto the torch?? I really hope that made sense??  LOL!! and by no means am I trying to change your mind on your standing postition.

Syn, That's just the problem.  I am not in crisis, I never have been.  I have always known my heart and mind.  And therein lies he rub.  Those things are precious to me and right mind or wrong, to throw them away is a betrayal that can never be undone.  He has taken steps not just to betray me sexually, or emotionally, or any of that, but he has jeopardized our kids and married another, thus promising to put her and kids above what we created.  I can "forgive" him.  I have forgiven him.  But when you kill a plant, you kill it--same with a family.  Sure you might be able to salvage a seed and grow a new family from it--which is what all you standers are trying to do.  I respect that, but it's not the same plant, you can never go back and tell the story of the "plant."  And I don't see the same value in the "spirit of the plant" that you do. 

Sure there is some value, but the damage is done.  He trashed my family and there is no restoring it.  He, no matter who he becomes will never be truly significant to me in the way that he was.  If your H raped your little girl, could you ever really welcome him back into your family the same way you did before?   How is that different, if he was sick and schizophrenic but is now on meds and doing his best to have a great life, could you ever have the same level of trust?  Would you put her in jeopardy again?  Could you overlook her pain and confusion that she is in no way even capable of expressing, just for the sake of a marriage?  Infidelity and divorce do leave scars, and the fact is that most of us will never know how hurtful or deep they run.  He was willing to do that, and I am sorry if he is not in his right mind, but how could I ever know that he can make himself well enough not to do it again?  I know a woman whose father divorced her mother twice and put them through years of emotional hell trying to make it work...  Where is the greater risk?   

But as far as standing, standing is about me, not my family.  I only had one chance to have a family and he trashed that.  I have no desire to have a new man in the lives of my kids, or to be a parent to anyone else's kids.  I would never try to replace H, that's not an option--he is trying his damdest to replace me, and he doesn't see the insanity in that.  I am a logical person.  The damage of his leaving is done.  We have to do our best to recover from that, regardless.  I think the risk of trying to replace a father is far greater than not having one, so forget that.  IF he were ever to come back, fully formed and with a true understanding of what he had done and wanted to rebuild a life, I might consider it, but probably not, because the chance will always exist that he could hurt them again and I think that would be far more damaging.     

And I sure as heck don't see any reason not to have male companionship even if I am waiting for him to come around.  I am just not a covenant keeper, I am too liberal for that--I don't believe in a double standard.  I could forgive him an affair.  If at some point he wants me back, then he has to realize that compared to what he did, if I choose to have someone else in my life, it's really only fair.  And he is still beating me.  I have had one man since we met, he has had two other women that I know of--I have no idea that there may not be more, but it would not have mattered, I could have forgiven anything he done to the point of about May of last year.   

I want simplicity and companionship.  I don't imagine I'll ever remarry, but I do want someone to share my life with, and while I have friends, we live in a couple's world and I want to be a part of that--I hate that I am viewed as a predator at every party I attend, and that I don't get invited to couples' parties anymore.  And to be completely honest, H and his family are high maintenance and I never would have chosen to leave them, but since he imposed it, I would not want that life back.  I enjoy being liked and appreciated, I like that my life is filled with laughter and love and joy, and not judgment and neediness.  I don't miss the games and the manipulation.  I--not my kids--but I am far better off with my life as it is and companionship with no real strings is a wonderful thing.  H thought that was what he was getting--instead he bought himself a whole new set of headaches.  I love that I have been given the gift to enjoy a man with no strings attached.  I don't need a father, a spouse, a breadwinner, a crutch--nothing, I just need a nice man to share my life, make me laugh and have great sex.  I loved being a wife, but since that was taken away, I want to enjoy being a really good girlfriend again.