[StillStanding]

I think the above kinda took me off toping...   

Yes...  there are a lot of great articles that describe a MLC...

so really the main question is...  when is someone NOT MLC...?  What are the signs of vanilla WAS and how are they different than MLC?

When they're not showing most or all of the above...?

There could be other behavioral or emotional issues that have nothing to do with midlife crisis. They could be biological in nature, like a chemical  or hormonal imbalance. There could be FOO (family of origin) issues that don't necessarily precipitate a full-blown midlife crisis. I can't tell you if your wife is MLCing or not. Heck, I can't tell you with 100% certainty if my wife is MLCing or not. Low-energy MLCers may be hard to distinguish from a normal walkaway spouse. RCR or others may chime in with better information or suggestions.

If you're asking because you think the approach to a WAS spouse as opposed to an MLCing spouse would be different? To my mind, not really. People move to end relationships when they think they can't get any better. We would still be recommending GAL activities, doing 180s, and practicing detachment, and giving a walkaway spouse a chance to discover that things can be better with the person they are married to. The biggest difference is that an MLCing spouse has to work through the crisis in their own head before they can even begin to consider healing their marriages.

[kaffe diem]

Here's a link to Michele W D's explanation:

http://www.divorcebusting.com/a_walkaway_wife.htm

Has your wife done a complete 180 with her personality?  Has she become her 'alien opposite?'
Has she not only abandoned you, but also friends, family, pets, kids?  (sorry, I'm not familiar with your situation) or are those things still firmly in place?

I would think they would be the biggest differences.

Just read back and you could tick off 20 MLC depression symptoms for your W when you married?  You're a brave man

Interesting thing about that, Kikki...  MWD, and I'll submit others, appear to have a tendancy to point to woman as WAW and men as MLC...  yet in many a forum and idle conversation, much of that seems to begin to blend...  it is common to see WAS or hear discussions of a woman having an MLC...

While MWD's description of a WAW resonates with my M and my W, the difference is, my W didn't stop complaining...  up until I finally found a "job" that was quite lucrative (unfortunately time consuming and higher risk), she continued to complain...  about money, time spent with family, the fact that while we discussed the new "job", I took it regardless and she stated she understand it was for the benefit of the families financial well being, and cleanliness, and the fact that I "smelled" when I came home from work, etc, etc...  AND...  I think I mentioned this above, maybe not...  my W only once "agreed" to D...  she's never asked for it...  in fact, she continued to tell me she wasn't ready to tell me she wanted a D, did not know if that was what she wanted, but knew that she didn't feel M, that ILYBINILWY, she lost that loving feeling and didn't know how to get it back, and in fact...  indicated that she didn't even want a legal separation, but that she was simply happy living in the limbo that we had, indefinitely...

Now, that COULD follow the WAS principle...  that she got "busted" before she felt safe making the transition...  so even now...  she can't seem to say she wants a D (in fact, does not even discuss it when I bring it up)...  she has her OM (who has good money, a nice house, she has keys to his truck for use any time, etc, etc)...  Seems to me that everything is ripe for the "panned BD" and saying she wants a D...  or the non-codependent who is comfortable being on their own...  the WAS who simply does not want to be M and so is prepared to go through the D process and co-parent accordingly and maintain a civil if not friendly R with their X...

Not wanting this to be a new topic about me and my sitch, although I am using my sitch as an example, because of the BLANTANTLY obvious, almost imperceptible commonalities of both "rational" WAS and (likely provable) 30 of 30 MLC signs...

My W is in many ways BOTH...

She SEEMS rational...  but spews venom and hatred at me, but in her mind, it's probably warranted...  and isn't there almost always some animosity between spouses who are going through D?  She's concerned for her financial security and therefore that of her kids (at least, that's presumed) and therefore will fight head to toe to prevent me from getting anything resembling what others might consider a fair financial and custody settlement...

And again, she shows the signs of MLC...  has she abandoned friends, kids, pets, etc...?  You'd never know it, looking right at her...  but her friends have "shifted"...  but don't we all get new friends, younger AND older than ourselves?  And she pawns the kids off or leaves them at home to go out to party...  but don't we ALL want to get away from the mundane from time to time...  relieve some stress...?  But my W will leave D13 home alone by herself overnight, while my W will go party with friends and then staying overnight at a friends place...  the animals...?  IDK...  but I've heard the dog is starting to display some strange behaviours...  like running away...  but he's always been a little neurotic and "not quite right in the head"...

It's only stuff on the real edge...  there's no alien...  I wish I had one...  but she's doing this stuff, without a doubt, at least in my mind...  but she hasn't changed, radically...  it's not publicly noticeable...

So I wonder...  who's the crazy one...?  Am I seeing things that aren't there?  The above are...  well...  facts...  but, she's always been like that...

So is polar opposite, publicly obvious, alien behaviour a necessity for MLC diagnosis?

[LisaLives]

I can't beleive in all the time I've been on here, this is the first time I have seen this discussed.  I agree with everything you hsve written.  You are only in crisis if you are not able to see that your changes are hurting people you love.  So, I don't believe you are in crisis. 

I can say that same thing, I have changed a lot of things about myself since H left.  I got a different hair style right away--it was drastic and funky and I died it purple--he would have had a cow.  I definitely changed my clothes, because for the first time in 20 years I was actually able to spend money on myself and not feel bad about it.  I took up swimming and running and lots of other things I never had time for and started hanging out with the funky people my exH always frowned at--people who do tarot and energy work and don't have advanced degrees, and even--horrors, some people who are really conservative, but good for me professionally.  I am so not in crisis, but free to really be me after a long life of living to suit him and his life. 

And I struggle with WAS vs MLC and what that means.  It's part of my non-stand.  I think my exH is a WAS.  He shows many of the signs of MLC, but all in a mild way.  Moreso than anything he shows signs of being a true narc--often WAS's are often narcs...  So, I hear you...  Lisa

[kaffe diem]

WP:  Yes, I agree...  MLC as described is certainly based in depression.  Understandably so.  In that vein of thinking, is it impossible for someone to be a WAS if they life with un-medicated depression?

Yes Anne and MB:  For the most part, it certainly seems that the crazy, obvious nutbags are MLC...  so that remains...  would that be a defining difference of MLC and WAS?  MUST they be completely insane in order to be MLC?

lol Anne:  Yes, I am just waiting for the sep papers to be signed so that I can start my own MLC...    On the monster, does monster must show up publicly in order to be MLC, or can monster simply be confined to private, closed doors and emails?

MB:  I think you are right from what I understand, that the WAS really comes to a place of, "I am done, I am moving on" and then they are prepared to talk about D.  Although there's no definitive time frame.  MWD indicates that it can be months (like when finances are in place) or years (when kids graduate) before the WAS might out themselves...  If you "catch" a WAS mid stream...  do they back peddle and deny and avoid and make excuses...  or do they simply say, "oops, caught in the act.  Yes, I'm done."

SS:  Yes, I think you are on to something that I don't know has really been explained well or at least, I am not sure how to interpret...  the so called "low energy" MLC...

Because what many people talk about with the crazy, alien behaviour is definitely high energy stuff...  and man...  when my W's monster comes out, holy cow run for cover...  and the crazy thinking...  I love my W, but...  sometimes her thinking isn't always running on the tracks...   

How does one truly spot...  low energy...?

And LL:  Nice point...  crisis does as crisis is...

I can't be in crisis if I know the damage that is happening because of the break down of the M...

My W insists "the kids will be fine"...  she claims she knows I am hurting...  but does she really empathize...?  does she REALLY care...?  About the kids...  about me...  about the effects on the in-laws (both my family and hers)...  the broken Rs all around...  the kids...

No, as pretty much anyone will say...  you shouldn't necessarily stay together because you don't want the kids to get hurt or to don't want to damage other Rs...  then again...  one might think that the rational mind would say, "OK, before we do anything drastic, let's consider MC"...  and not just avoid it for the alternative of everyone else living in limbo and on hold while the MLCer goes on living their "dream"...

But the...  script as it were...  the MLCer often knows that the "right thing" is to go to MC, even though they use it as a venue to indicate how good they are and how bad the LBS is, so that they can say they "tried"...

Yes...  crisis might really be the key word here, and that being indicated by the general obviousness that they are unaware or appear indifferent to the hurt caused to others, notwithstanding the LBS...  because precedence suggests that D is ugly and therefore the spouses will hate each other because of it and don't care about the animosity...

And the low energy...?  IDK...  not as often, and not as "loud"...  but an underlying, barely perceptible but observable nevertheless if one looks close enough, that the indifference is there...  it's just...  not...  as obvious...

[kikki]

Low-energy MLCers may be hard to distinguish from a normal walkaway spouse. RCR or others may chime in with better information or suggestions.

This is probably where the area gets grey - with low energy MLCers and WAS's?

I can tell you without a smidgen of doubt - if your spouse is a High Energy MLCer you wouldn't be asking the question.  It is SO OBVIOUS to those that are close to them.  They may keep their 'masks' on to cover their depression in public, or the masks may slip at times - it depends on the individual.

But if you had a high energy MLCer you wouldn't be asking that question.

So - you prob either have a low energy MLCer or a WAS.  I'm sure others will be along who have experienced this.

[WarriorPriestess]

I don't know that it is so cut and dry as you are trying to make it.  I think there is a lot of overlap within those categories.  But as opposed to seeing them as all completely separate, I visualize it more like a Venn diagram or aligned along a broad spectrum.  It helps to research as much as possible about all of the options, and then try and place your spouse where they seem to fit best, always staying open to other possibilities. 
I for one like concrete explanations and prescribed remedies, so I empathize with your frustration in trying to figure it all out though!

[honour]

I can see how her current OM probably has no idea that he is really an OM

Of course he knows he is the OM, just as you did know you were the OM.

This forum is absolutely full of LBS who's Hs and Ws have been "rescued"  from "abusive" marriages and relationships by OWs and OMs. These "rescuing soulmates" engage the "suffering ones" in adultery because they are "helping" them.

we were all working to safely remove her and D13 from the dangerous environment.

And as part of this "safe working" you thought it a good plan to have an A with her. She is in a relationship with an abusive partner and you don't think having sex with her might not put her at greater risk???!!!!

I honestly didn't see myself as an OM in a direct sense, although the "hidden" R did strike me a bit odd.

Struck you as a bit odd???!! So your current relationship that started with secrecy and deception has ended with...secrecy and deception.

Has your wife done a complete 180 with her personality?  Has she become her 'alien opposite?'

It would seem not. She was happy to cheat on her previous partner with kaffe and is now cheating on kaffe.

Brother, some folks reading your thread could be forgiven for thinking you may have been hit by the karma bus.

honour

[Dontgiveup]

Here's some info from RCR about this

"Walk-aways that are not MLCers probably won’t display Monster, projection, and in-fatuation."

[Anjae]

kaffe, like DGU said about RCR articles, monster, projection, and in-fatuation separate WAS from MCLers. And yes, if you had a high energy, or an over high energy like my husband you would know for sure it was MLc.

To me monster has always been private. Even if we were in a public place would only turn up if no one could notice. Mainly it was closed doors, email, phone. But like we all had seen with Mel Gibson, monster can be public.

honour, yes, it could be seen like karma bus. Still, some people do have abusive partners and when we are young we do things we would not do latter on. Also, for some, a boyfriend and a committed relationship /marriage  are different things. I know a couple of guys who were real players and, since they got married, have no stray a single time. No, I’m not advocating cheating on a boyfriend/girlfriend. Just saying there are many shades of grey.

[kaffe diem]

hahahaa!!!  Honour...  Even I don't have any problem suggesting I got hit with the Karma Bus...  lol!  And believe me, I've found out this is a pattern that hasn't been repeated just twice by my W...  apparently she's done it a few times prior to "getting it on" with me...

WP:  I hear you...  while I'm the type of person that believe just because an answer hasn't been found yet, doesn't mean there is no answer to be found...  but yes, a lot of this MLC stuff has to do with psychological conditions and at the very least temporary, if not long term PDs...  so trying to peel anything specific if it actually isn't, certainly appears pointless...

Good pull on that info DGU...  Again, to play a bit of devils advocate, I wonder if it can't be said that a "normal" person might present those behaviours, especially under stressful conditions.  Perhaps there's something to be said about consistency over time...  that most of the MLC signs, as well as the behaviours you've listed will be present over an extended period of time...  that again, time really is a factor in MLC, not just in how it can take so long to go through the crisis, but also that it can take a long time to be sure that it is in fact MLC...  at least in regards to the low-energy types...