[LettingGo]

Maybe I'm the only one with an obviously crazy MLCer... I just don't get why you are overthinking this so much.... were your spouses even REMOTELY CAPABLE OF LEAVING THEIR KIDS and not even contacting or communicating with them prior to BD? Really? Cuz mine was NOT even capable of such behavior.

MID LIFE CRISIS is the ONLY explanation.... read Jim Conway's book and hear from the horses mouth what it feels like to be in a Mid Life CRISIS, then see if you are still confused.

I do understand that people under stress will do things we don't expect, but think of all the divorced couples you know..... People wanting out of a marriage, even those who are cheating don't behave CRAZY!! They get angry, they get over each other, they get a divorce, they move on to someone else. And unless you married PURE TRASH all those years ago, they see their kids on a regular basis. Period.

People who are depressed are MENTALLY ILL to some degree. That's how they can lay in bed all day like a zombie, unable to function....That's how a formerly good mother can kill her own babies... cuz she's gone off the deep end. That's how a man can kill his family and then turn the gun on himself..... people do these things all the time, but they are not in their right minds. MLC is a break from reality for at least part of the time.

I would challenge you to discover if you think WAS is a form of temporary mental illness... a crisis of some sort.

[StandandDeliver]

NO LG - I have an obviously crazy MLCer. He is crazy in what he does because he SAYS all the right things. He just RARELY follows through or does the right thing. He was a dedicated father before all of this. Now he doesn't call his kids for days, sometimes weeks and he somehow justifies this to himself (and this is a whole year after BD - if he was just moving on as a WAS because he was done with me, surely he would not be doing this to the children?) He breaks down and cries and says that he misses them, but then does not contact them! It is crazy weird. And he is totally controlled by OW (if he was wanting out of a boring, stagnant marriage but was mentally of sound mind, why would he tolerate her obsessive and controlling behaviour and for so long?)

My H even stated that he "could not handle being alone". Right from the horses mouth.  His mother who would defend him to the death thinks there is something very wrong with him and that he is not "better yet".

As far as standing goes, though, I don't think it is all that relevant. We are standing to heal, to learn and to forgive so that we can move forward with our lives with or without the MLCer/WAS. So that we can embark on new healthy Rs knowing that we are whole and that we have addressed the parts of ourselves that were dependent, or broken, in our marriages, so we don't take them with us on the rest of our journey through life...

[LisaLives]

I know I overthink it because I don't have an obviously crazy exH.  He seems mostly sane and he has not truly abandoned his kids, in fact, he texts or calls them about a dozen times a day--I do think that's a different kind of crazy, but that's another convo.  He has a very high profile and responsible job and he performs well at it.  And his affair down is not obvious, in fact, on paper she is a huge step up from me. 

And that is the part that always made me question a stand.  If he is sane and I really am just not the right person for him, or a narc finally showing his true colors, then why bother, but I always come back to--if he really is crazy and hurt and not in his right mind, then I should be there for him.  But there is no litmus test.  And it also has to do with how much of me do I need to fix?  I have self-esteem issues, for sure, but they have gotten better and I will work on them for the rest of my life.  But WAS means his criticisms might hold water, MLC means he doesn't even know.  Was I really making his life too hard, did I keep him from too many things he liked to do, was I too strong and independent, are those things I should work on--who knows? 

Yes LG, I am jealous evrey single day of the people who have truly crazy MLCers, how sad that my life has come to that?  But in reality, I can't dwell on it, he left, and now I just get to make the best of the considerable assets I still have--so I am on my way to the winery--surely there are answers there!     

[Mamma Bear]

 LG and LL I got the old "I'm too good for him"  He said I deserved better and down he went.  So hard so so hard. Clearly a snafu inside his cranium.............How re-assuring for me.

[honour]

What are the actual ACTIONS of a MLC as compared to a WAS?  Is there anything there that can offer up clues?

Yes, as has already been explained some LBS see their W/H behaving in a way that indicates they are mentally unwell others don't see those behaviours.

What are you trying to establish?

honour

[kaffe diem]

Yes LG, that is exactly it...  there is CRAZY MLC...  without a doubt, no questions...

And then, there are people who look at the signs and...  can glean some form of crisis, even though it's not blatant...

If MLC was simply diagnosed as crazy behaviour, then it's possible that many who are labeling their spouse or person they know as MLC, are simply making huge stretches to misdiagnose...  like suggesting that someone who is forgetful is suffering from Alzheimer's...

On the far side of the WAS spectrum, the WAS KNOWS they want a D...  when confronted, while there may be initial denial, it appears to take a short period of time (relatively) for them to admit that they are unhappy in the M, they are not blaming the other spouse for all the wrongs in their life, and they admit they want a D, and they understand the damage...  "Sorry, I know you hurt and I know this will be difficult for the kids and we should do everything we can to help the kids work through this, including counseling...  I just need to move on in a new direction in my life..."  and so it goes...

In the grey areas that many LBS find themselves, there's no absolute, nutbag crazy...  there's no child abandonment...  there's no insistence that the devil is telling them to buy the porsche and install a water bed in the camper...

My W for example, 11 months after sep...  12 mo after I found OM1 in our bed with her, under the quilt with her, although he was fully clothed, and she made all sorts of justifications for it and never once...  cannot...  say that maybe that wasn't such a good idea...  rather suggests that if I had some woman with me in the same situation, it would be no big deal...  this coming from someone I know has HUGE jealousy / trust issues...  someone who simply says that she doesn't feel M, that she doesn't want the expense of a leg sep (which she has now paid for; because apparently I asked for it, which I absolutely did not; and only one month before we could be D)...  and that she repeated told me that she could have lived separate lives, never leg sep nor D, indefinitely...  in an open R...  and that I should see if the grass is greener...

This does not sound like something I would consider "normal"...  but it isn't...  CRAZY...  it's...  just not...  "normal"...     I think...

There's no clingy...  there's no words expressing undying love and yet having an A...  there's no fancy toys...  there's no...  excessive...  spending...  there's no running around topless at parties...

But she's definitely...  rethinking life...  her life...  and is behaving...  a little more selfish than...  she did...  even though she certainly had narc and borderline tendencies, prior to BD...  it's like, she just put our M on hold...  put it in a box on a shelf (like her ring) and forgot about it...  and avoids any R talk like the plague...

WAS...?  MLC...?   

[Mamma Bear]

  Kaffe,  I kind of think WAS would appear civilized andd together. Not all tattered and swirling.    MLC=Confusion  Is what you are saying WAS don't seem confused?

[kaffe diem]

What are the actual ACTIONS of a MLC as compared to a WAS?  Is there anything there that can offer up clues?

Yes, as has already been explained some LBS see their W/H behaving in a way that indicates they are mentally unwell others don't see those behaviours.

What are you trying to establish?

honour

The real question at hand is, not to establish what is obvious MLC behaviours...  there's no question about that...  none whatsoever...  without a doubt, when we see crazy MLC, we know...  crazy MLC...

So MUST it be crazy to be MLC...  because if so, then I am not entirely sure a list of 30 signs of MLC or establishing PD traits would be necessary...  Sorry if that comes across as pretentious...  I don't know another way of saying, "if MLC is really that obvious...  then what's the questions...?"

KWIM?

  Kaffe,  I kind of think WAS would appear civilized andd together. Not all tattered and swirling.    MLC=Confusion  Is what you are saying WAS don't seem confused?

Yes, that's part of it, MB...  It is that...  point where, and I think we all understand that MLC is not that simplistic, but when making a quick call, it's easier to just point to a single symptom...

Crazy MLC is certainly confused...  Crazy MLC is certainly...  crazy...

But "normal" people...  perhaps a WAS...  can be confused...  as can the LBS...  who is apparently not going through MLC...

[Anjae]

No LG, you're not the one with an obviously crazy MLCer. We have no children but prior to left (husband left before BD) he was always caring, woudl never let me go throught troubles.

kaffe, a WAS or a LBS can be confused but they are not monster. They may me angry, not monster. We all can have monster for a short time, but if it last for ages, and together with the other odd beahviours, it is more than a WAS.

You've said yourself, if you've seen MLC you know it.

[LettingGo]

12 mo after I found OM1 in our bed with her, under the quilt with her, although he was fully clothed, and she made all sorts of justifications for it and never once...  cannot...  say that maybe that wasn't such a good idea...  rather suggests that if I had some woman with me in the same situation, it would be no big deal...

 

This does not sound like something I would consider "normal"...  but it isn't...  CRAZY...  it's...  just not...  "normal"...     I think...

Kaffe..... this IS crazy.....it's crazy.... think about it... with all of the horrible things people can do in a relationship, this is crazy.... this thinking there is nothing wrong with being under a quilt with some guy!! Was she HIGH??? Cuz if she was WASTED, well, I've seen really WASTED people justify all sorts of stupid things... like "who are you gonna believe.... me or your lying eyes?".... it's crazy, for an adult... maybe not crazy for a teenager busted out by their Mom or Dad.... IT'S CRAZY!!! Do you not want her to be crazy so you can justify leaving her? Cuz you can leave her any time... no apologies necessary... sick or not, you get to leave if it's not what you choose to sign on for... You know she's not herself....