[LisaLives]

http://www.sbs.com.au/insight/episode/index/id/366/Narcissism#watchonline

I have a theory that more than a minority of MLCers are narcissists or have other PDs, but narc is the one that goes most unrecognized.  Borderlines generally can't hide it that long.  This is a great program that was posted on another MLC forum. 

The two most salient point are at the end of the second part where they say that empathy is the opposite of narcissism.  And that is totally the crux of MLC/WAS--how can they not see the devastation?  And at the end of the third part they talk about the worst thing that can happen to a narc is to see themselves for what they are--the descent into depression or liminality as RCR terms it...  Good stuff...

[Buggy31]

LL
I really know my H is in MLC but I also have come to feel that he also has a PD.  Although he is his opposite in many ways I have come to accept that he exhibited PD too.  So I'll have to read the article but what you posted resonates......really

[LisaLives]

I am not saying they're not mlc, only that I thibk that what makes people susceptible to mlc is a pd, and I think narc spectrum disorders make one particularly vulnerable.  A narc believes they are perfect and entitled to a charmed existence.  So when certain challenges present, they have a harder time overcoming them...  Just a thought...

[Stillpraying]

LL,
Thanks for posting this.
My MIL phoned me last night to tell me it was on but I have yet to watch it.  Will do so later tonight as I'm off to get the boys from school in 30 mins.

Heres another article that you moight find interesting:
http://narcissists-suck.blogspot.com/2007/06/your-narcissists-self-esteem.html

I have had a particular interest in this PD since my Social worker friend identified she thought H might have it and also RCR picked up on it in her coaching on my thread.

I was going to start a discussion about what the MLCer's characteristics were before MLC as mine seems to have had many of the NPD traits before MLC.  I do still believe he's been in MLC 3-4 years now but some of the things he's shown our whole married life are:
Name calling, controlling, looking after his own personal belongings very well but not paying the same respect to other's belongings.  Always wanting to 'upgrade' everything that was his at the financial detriment of the family. The excessive need for affirmation.  The sense that I was to make him happy, as that was my purpose.  (Interesting that he never once asked what he could do to make me happy.)  Denial of responsibility. (if I don't deal with it - Bills etc it will go away). Jealousy and envy.  Lazy work ethic (would take a sickie but then go and play in the band the evening of the same day as he couldn't let THEM down, never mind his family needed him to provide for them).

The above may sound like a long picky list as I am very analytical but it's something I'm thinking about at the moment as it affects my stand.  Is this man simply going through a crisis (yes!) but will he become less self centred and be able to empathise and focus on the needs of others in addition to his own after he get's through the crisis (if ever)?

I'd be interested if other's had 'difficult' relationships before the peak of MLC hit and if they've looked back and think maybe there was a PD all along. 

[LisaLives]

SP, This is what I have struggled with the whole time.  If you ever want to chat, let me know.  I have read a lot about narcs.  The term "emotional vampires" is so fitting, isn't it?   

I know my H is having some type of MLC.  I also know he was a narc before and narcs seldom get better--when the major characteristic of the disease is that you know there is nothing wrong with you--it makes it hard to fix anything...  And that is why I struggle so much with standing--and defending him--he may get through the crisis, but if he's still a narc, well, he's still a narc and I am out of supply.   

One of my best friends told me MIL was a narc about two years before BD and told me that I did not have the psychological toolbox to deal with her the way I would have to since she was going to be moving here to help take care of my kid.  And even though all my psychologist friends knew forever that all H's family were, it was only after BD that I started to figure him out.  Many people from narc families have "fragile narcissism."  And with this variety, you can believe you had a good marriage if YOUR personality type is generally giving and people pleasing.  Of course many people have traits that lead themselves to "inverted narcissism" and the codependency that is associated with wanting to be with a narc type.  So you can be in a narc relationship and be happy for a long time. 

I could write lots, but this program was great.  Lisa 

[Stillpraying]

LL,
Yes, it would be good to chat.
I'm back from my meeting (over the road) and the kids are in bed so I think I'll watch the program.

It is dissapointing to think they won't change like other MLCer's can.  I do beilive God can help anyone change if they want to but that's the issue If THEY WANT too.  H says he doesn't have an anger problem.  He's just passionate!   I guess it's passion when you call your wife names and tell your sister you could have easily broken her neck and not felt any remorse just because she was at your former home helping mind the kids
I can't be dicorced until next year so my stand is by default at the moment.  I'll take it slowly while I learn more about PD's and H.  I don't need to make any huge decisions now anyway.
Sp

[Buggy31]

Darn it ....wasnt able to watch as my computers down and can only use d9 iPod.  I'd love to chat too as you've brought up some really interesting points with some knowledge.  I don't know much about PDA but they are in his immediate family from the little I do know.  Right about the time I felt something really wrong with him I started to become very aware that something was wrong overall...funny how in denial I was but mine was the personality of very protective committed man.....but to extreme.....really...unable to be anything that was outside that.  Father same way.   Unable to break routines.....highly obsessive....same with father...I am interested in this for many reasons but an important one is understanding this mental health history for my kids.

[LisaLives]

Bugs, You are spot on, there are so many things I want to break for my kids.  Even my son started talking the other day about the fact that he feels like "D needs me to make him happy, and I feel like that's not my job..."   Ding, ding, ding, winner, winner, chicken dinner...

This program came at the right time for me because I have to stop the vampire habits before they become a part of my kids.  It is all the emotional theft that creates a new generation of narcs.  If their parents steal all their esteem and emotions and happiness, it leaves a big gaping hole that they then have to fill with someone else's supply.  Narcs do not know empathy, can not teach empathy and do not have appropriate boundaries. 

Oh I could go on, but here is an interesting article for anyone who thinks they may be dealing with bigger PD issues than just MLC... 

The Emotional Injury of Distorted Boundaries
Abandonment issues are fused with distorted, undefined personal boundaries.

Published on June 21, 2010 by Claudia Black, M.S.W., Ph.D. in The Many Faces of Addiction
 
Edited to remove article and make a link to the source instead. Please do not post full articles written by others; post a link,; those writers are looking for traffic and often their work is copyrighted.

[Stillpraying]

Thanks for poston LL.  Also just watched the SBS show.
Very interesting and I can see H's FOO issues have had a lot to do with it.
SP

[Stillpraying]

http://www.narcissismcured.com/Intro_from_Kim.html

[Anjae]

Don't think what makes people susceptible to MLC is a PD. We are all susceptible to a MLC. However, when in the crisis, MLCers have traces of PD.

Well, I'm the other way round, I think a narcissist is easy to trace. Not sure if I can trace a borderline...

[StandandDeliver]

I wonder though, how this goes into the revisiting of failed adolescent development? Because, if you think about it, the point of adolescence is to transition from childhood (where dependence on others and a developmentally self-focused world view is normal) to becoming a "self-actualised" adult? Children understand right and wrong and can be quite nuanced, but as children they just take it for granted that it is the duty of others to look after them - what is "entitlement" in an adult is "normal" in a non-abusive childhood. The teenage years SHOULD involve the break down of those expectations (which can be quite painful and also liberating), we come to see that we are separate from our parents, that they are flawed human beings who do not HAVE to give us everything that we want or need and that we need to develop a sense of separateness and responsibility for ourselves to be able to manage adult life.

My H displayed many characteristics which were mildly narcissistic, but I see his behaviour (with hindsight) as more immature than anything else. He did not finish growing up (and maybe meeting me so young and transferring his dependence from his parents onto me means he DOES associate me as one of the "grown-up" that he must challenge and break from in order to become an adult.) It is just too bad that he is doing this in his late 30's and not in his teens.

[Freddygone]

I see that in most of these MLC situations the wayward spouse may be narcissistic and it could have been suppressed by the Left behind until a point where we relaxed our support. OR it could be at the point we relax our support, the wayward spouse meets a strong narcissist. In my experience my MIL was a Narcissist and damaged my wife at a very young age. The traits I had described to me by my wife regarding her mother are now in evidence with my wife. The other day (less than ten days ago) my daughters were discussing an incident I did not know about regarding them and their mother when they were young girls. It was an exact replay of an incident my wife described with her mother when she was teenage (at the same age). I was amazed.
In MLC the person has low self esteem, with contact with a strong narcissist this low self esteem will immediately be detected as a willing host. He (Narcissist) will feed the insecurity and boost the confidence and off they go on the merry go round of an affair. It will be reciprocated as 'poor you, too'.
As Melody Chase describes in her videos about Narcissism on utube, there is always a narcissist in the mix here with MLC and affairs. But as described in this thread, they boost themselves as valuable achievers, but in fact this is all a lie and they have achieved nothing and are desperate to cover it up and have behaviour that says 'look at me, aren't I having a good time'. But inside they are frightened, insecure and suffering. We protected them for a long time. This is a falling glass we cannot catch. We have to watch it fall.     

[Freddygone]

I forgot one more point.....a strong narcissist will trap the weaker one. This is linked to Stockholm syndrome and generally the behaviour cycles between affection and abuse, this is how they create dependancy, but they are incapable of empathy or real love. (only for themselves to be enhanced).
if the narcissist is very strong you should not engage. Don't have anything to do with a strong narcissistic alienator.
Eventually (as we see described on this site) the alienator will strangle the love out of the MLC. It takes time. Sometimes a long time.

[missybuddha]

this is so interesting. I've just been researching gaslighting. (I started a thread) which is classic Narc behaviour. My h had gaslighted  a bit in our marriage but much more in the last two years
:-(

it all helps me to detach. and realise it's his journey and how I can look at how I was blind to it and how my self esteem got so low for so long.

I'm not sure if my husband has NPD but he is very narcissistic at the moment. My d18 commented on how a behaviour of my h was narcissistic and told me that narcissism is a PD. my D14 says he's selfish and my S20 talks about how his father feels that this is his time now and that the family owes him now.

[Freddygone]

Yes, another Narcissistic trait is that they almost never do anything for anyone without expecting a payback. All actions they make are banked in their head and will be produced like a rabbit from a hat if you don't reciprocate. Beware.
It is very sad and predictable.
Love is about doing things without expecting return, but for the pure joy of doing it. This love they don't have and they don't understand.
My wife's alienator does not understand why I did not kick her out (first miscalculation on his part) and why I am standing. I think at first he thought it was weak, but now he is very afraid. My strength in standing and maintaining the family is very frightening to him.
Standing is a sure sign of strength and a rock. Calm, unmoving, unreacting and to your spouse at some point very reassuring, we just have not got to that point yet.

[Dandy Lion]

I don't consider my H as a narcissist at all.  He has always been conflict avoidant which is a Personality Disorder but I don't think it is what cause his MLC, although I would certainly say it did not help matters.  His  coping skills have been hindered by his inability to reach out and talk to people about what is bothering him. 

[Mamma Bear]

Freddy I like what you wrote. I can relate. My H plays with his band aids and cream for his hands. Then he would take a bath always pampering himself. I would have thought he was narcissist but his self esteem is so tanked I can't imagine a narcissist having low self esteem
  These OP    are twisted. I can't give the op power anymore. They are meaningless.
  Dandy yeah I know what you mean about conflct avoiders. Always seemed he did that. I ended up having to solve all problems and the running of the house. Now Mr. Abandonment is over with ow almost 9 mos post BD and I thnik he thinks he's happy. Sort of     Good thing MLC=Confusion otherwise we'd be sunk   LOL Here's to  Giving them space to think and TIME!

[growing every day]

Don't have anything to do with a strong narcissistic alienator.

I will have this tattooed on my forehead backwards so I can see it in the mirror. My Vanishing H is a true narcissist. As I look back, always was, and as the saying goes, tigers don't change stripes. Its that now I that I see this is who is really is.

One of Maya Angelou's  quotes is " If someone shows you who they are, believe them"

[Buggy31]

Freddygone
Well said.  Do you have a background in psych or is this information from your research on MLC?

[LisaLives]

MB, Narcs actually do have a very low sense of self-esteem in many cases--their narc behavior is how they mask that.  And there is the "fragile" variety narc which is what I think my exH is.  They have the behaviors, but not the outward manifestations.  We are all insecure, and we all deal with it in diferent ways, some maladaptive and that's all NPD is.  So he still could be, don't write it off...  Or not, who really knows--narcs never admit it...  Love to you, Lisa

[Freddygone]

Hi Buggy, I research it allong with MLC because my wife is associated with a strong Narc. The thing is outwardly they seem confident and strong, but inside they feel inferior and are fighting for recognition and will lie and cheat to do it. They have no scruples.
They generally become this way way back from childhood when they probably had a really bad time. But don't spare too much sympathy, because you will get not a scrap from them. They only leg themselves up by trampling on others.
I am 2.5 years into research affairs, MLC and Narcs. It's quite entertaining as you realise none of this is about us.
We just had some really BAD LUCK.
You see the disorder we standers have is that we are determined, researching, 'not to be moved', intelligent and normally quite successful individuals.

[StandandDeliver]

Hi Freddy, not to sound to narcissistic but I do think I am all of those great traits (except successful - if anyone wants to offer me a job, I am keen to be successful!  )

[Freddygone]

Hi St&Del,
We have been so far down.........
of course you are successful, but you are only on the way UP. You want a job? What do you do? What do you want to do?
The only way is UP, we are all on the way UP.

[honour]

, there is always a narcissist in the mix here with MLC and affairs. But as described in this thread, they boost themselves as valuable achievers, but in fact this is all a lie and they have achieved nothing and are desperate to cover it up and have behaviour that says 'look at me, aren't I having a good time'. But inside they are frightened, insecure and suffering. We protected them for a long time. This is a falling glass we cannot catch. We have to watch it fall.   

Good work Freddy, very profound.

When W was spinning off into fantasy land, sub-consciously there was a voice in the back of my mind that was saying "I can't protect you any more".

It was heartbreaking but I have let the glass fall.

honour

[Freddygone]

Honour,
this to me is the hardest part. I could see my wife ripping the family and 30 year marriage apart, knew that it was not in character, but my only way to deal with it was to leave. Let the glass fall.
My girls were already away at University and I had to put distance between myself and this behaviour.
I travelled back each week , then each fortnight then longer and now it is every few months. Support the family financially and the home and all that is required, but she has to find her way and I can't fix everything like I used to.
Basically the family has exploded and my W is alone with the alienator, her in the family home and he is his home.
MLC is abusive to all who are emotionally close. I think it is harder for people with small children, (usually the wives of MLC men) because they can't get away.
But confronting a Narcissist makes things worse, they take power from confrontation unless you can deal them such a powerful blow of exposure that they lose their credibility with everyone, you will just make matters worse. They are charming, clever and ruthless people.
The Narcissist wins up  to the point where he thinks he has won, then I believe he makes a fatal mistake and shows his true colours and the whole pack of cards should fall apart.
I was lucky, I could take a job somewhere else and leave. It is easier to deal with this in your own head if you can get away. I don't know how some wives maintain there sanity when faced with this.

[honour]

But confronting a Narcissist makes things worse, they take power from confrontation unless you can deal them such a powerful blow of exposure that they lose their credibility with everyone, you will just make matters worse. They are charming, clever and ruthless people.
The Narcissist wins up  to the point where he thinks he has won, then I believe he makes a fatal mistake and shows his true colours and the whole pack of cards should fall apart.
I was lucky, I could take a job somewhere else and leave. It is easier to deal with this in your own head if you can get away. I don't know how some wives maintain there sanity when faced with this.

They are utterly ruthless. And often these people can be high achievers. I have had the misfortune of being associated with three seriously narcissist/psychopathic  people (four if you include my W but I believe hers is temporary) each one was utterly ruthless. One in particular has a weak softly demeanour with a handshake like a wet rag. It was all calculated. Once this guy had got you where he wanted you he could strike psychological terror into you. There was nothing weak at all.
But they lie and lie and lie. In their view honesty and integrity are for naïve people. But eventually, as you point out, they make mistakes . The guy I referred to above eventually was apprehended for a £3 million fraud. I introduced my W to this guy once at a social occasion, afterwards I asked her what she thought of him. She couldn't believe that the person she had met was capable of all the stuff I had witnessed and told her about. Narcs are utterly charming and ruthless. You have to witness it to truly believe it.

And I agree, they do derive "supply" from confrontation. If you confront, it has to be a knockout blow.

Freddy you seem to have insight that suggests you have had first hand dealings with this sort of personality?

Like you I was lucky...but it was my W who took a job elsewhere,  in another country actually and my children are D22 and S19 so they are not damaged, in fact they tell me they have grown from the experience. So very lucky, The three of us are very close.

My view is, my W's OM being a narc he is not going to live "happily ever after" with his now soul mate. He will require continual narcissist supply, and as you say,  this is when they show their true colours and the house of cards falls down. I worry for W when that happens. It is likely she is involved with a truly "nasty piece" of work and is separated from all family and friends by a big sea and 600 miles.

honour

[Freddygone]

Honor, your situation is similar to mine.
My W is with a guy who is considered to be a high achiever (in his head) but he is a conman. Calls himself an Architect. People believe him because he has the presence and he takes on big projects then uses others with the skills to do the work while he takes the credit.
Flashy web sites and everything.
I am a long way from UK but I see what he has been doing and fooling people and my W was taken in by this 'self made' man.
But he is not qualified, did not spend the 7 years it takes to qualify. The only thing he has made is his self image to combat inadequacy.
Now the economy has taken a dip and It may be that he is found out. Building work is not in demand so much.
When he met my wife he had a partner of 15 years, she was cast aside and Narcissists will do this once they have achieved what they want, which is often money. In many cases they will break a family to gain control of the W money. Then find an excuse to gaslight and discard them too. But they will have the money.
You see how the jigsaw falls into place?
As you say at the end, the host that they preyed on (the W) will have nothing, this person that they 'loved' so much will be wasted.
I really hope it does not come to that and that the W wakes up in time and fights to get out.
But like a fly in a spiders web, it will be difficult if associated with a Narc.
 

[LisaLives]

As my NG and I carve our path to a second marriage as LBSs, we hit LOTS of roadblocks.  Most of them are the massive hunks of debris from our failed lives.  And as I am five years, two relationships, and another MLC (ex's brother) from my atomic disaster, I see so much more perspective.     

And though I do think about him less, I am still, occasionally panic-stricken when I think it was my fault and it might happen again.  And so does NG.  Then I found these two pieces: 

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/elloa-atkinson/i-love-my-husband-but-heres-why-i-want-to-cheat_b_5909882.html

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/good-men-project/my-wife-told-me-she-wants-to-cheat_b_6079252.html?utm_hp_ref=love--sex

Which led me back to: 

http://www.cslewisinstitute.org/CS_Lewis_on_Love (scroll to the piece on courage, if you don't want to read the whole thing)

And I am even more firmly entrenched in my belief that MLC is Fear, out-of-control.  And fear, in a psychologically unhealthy person can't be driven out by love--because love makes us vulnerable and leads to more fear, until you can wrestle your demons.  So, at MLC, people look to other means to drive out fear, and that leads to narcissism, which is just another term for a psychological riot shield.  It is not internal protection, but an ugly artificial barrier against the bad stuff.  However, since it can't be selective, it blocks the good stuff, too... 

And so, as we walk our path, we are learning to be emotionally honest.  And I finally understand how hard this is for men.  He has fear, like Nige above, about a LOT of things, but to reveal them to me goes against EVERYTHING we teach boys and men.  It makes him vulnerable and sometimes he cries, and he has to risk that I will still love him if I see he is not the "MAN" he is supposed to be.  And I better understand my ex.  He was not strong enough to admit his fear...  Love and light, ll 

[ruggedendurance]

Lisa,

I read this and agree with all of it.

Except.

The person described is my XW.

Unfortunately.    This can happen to women also.

My X would never show a weakness or admit a mistake to anybody.............

It went against her very being to allow herself to be vulnerable..............

After a 28 yr. marriage.    She has vanished for over two years now.   

As painful as all of this has been for me?    Even coming to terms with the fact that I may have been a doormat to her at different times?

I would rather be able to love someone and take the risk of being hurt.

Than live her life.

I didn't say that out of anger.    I hope she can find out what her problem is.    I pray to God that she finds some peace.    I am still convinced there is a wonderful person trapped inside of her.

It was just my assessment of the situation.

[OldPilot]

Well maybe you are both right.
And it is not a man vs woman thing but mlc vs lbs.

And add in other things that are wrong with the LBS like codependency, conflict avoidance and enabling.

Not that any one of these things is the culprit but added all together, just maybe.

[CallanG]

Hi LL

Thank you for posting , really interesting a thought provoking . I agree that fear is at the bottom of what our partners are going through .

Callan

[in it]

In what I've read about narcissism it is all fear based..and the ex tried very hard to instill fear in me but it didn't work in the long run... fear fueled by anger is a dangerous combination.

I agree with OP this ...whatever this is ....isn't necessarily gender specific.

[ruggedendurance]

OP,

You are exactly right when you point out the actions of the LBS.    Co-dependency,  enabling.............

I have plenty of issues of my own to clear up.

If I am totally honest with myself?    Neither one of us was growing into the people we really wanted to be.    This crisis gave me the space to look at myself and my actions.

Not all of it looked good when it was brought out into the light...

Still.   My actions, coping skills, problem solving skills, communication.   All needed attention and now they are getting it.

If this is what it takes for us to grow?    Who am I to fight it?

I am still of the opinion that everything happens for a reason.    If we try hard enough?    There is something positive to take from every situation.

[LisaLives]

I don't disagree that it could be women too, but since my MLCer wasn't a woman, and neither is my NG, I wasn't going to try to be all-knowing ;-0!  However, one of my best friends is an MLCer, and what I saw in her was not fear, it was freedom.  The three female MLCers I know personally, including my fiancé's ex, I don't think acted out of fear, it was freedom.  I think they fell into the typical good girl role and did everything they were supposed to do, then finally went wild at midlife. 

My ex was a typical good boy, too, but for women, I actually feel, in many cases like it's not fear, it's a new-found power.  In fact, I find my fiancé's ex-wife to be living a freaky existence where I would be scared s#(!less, but she thinks, for the first time in her life, that since she is in control, and he's not, that she is in a better place...  I suppose that could be a kind of fear, it's DEFINITELY narcissism, but not the same...  That doesn't make sense, but in the book Crossing Paths, they talk about the ML danger zone where hormones change and men become more like women, and women become more like men, and that is when relationships struggle.  Men got to a point where they say "is this all there is?"  And women say, "holy hell, look at all there is!"  Fear of missing out, instead of a fear of failure...  I don't know, that's why I thought it would make a good discussion topic!       

[in it]

RuggedEndurance That's true...I'm starting to think without pain there is no growth. But I have had enough..thank you very much.

The best book I have read on communication is the 5 love languages and this works for any relationship.

There was some codependency involved mostly I enabled the behavior. No more.

Maintaining a postive attutude is key.

I went nuts in my twenties after the first divorce..so I been there done that..it was no way to deal with the pain that's out of my system.

I understand the ex didn't have many girlfriends before me so I guess he thought he missed out.

[ruggedendurance]

Lisa,

It is a good topic.   And.    There is no blanket diagram that covers all men or all woman.

It just struck me that what you described was exactly the same as my XW.

I do believe when she left she was looking for "freedom" and the excitement that comes from it.    However.    She fits the MLC to a tee.

He affair partner has.   For all the world.    The appearance of a farmyard pig....... Face and body.    He lives in a trailer park.   (I have nothing against people that live in trailer parks)   I only mention it because he really has nothing to offer except being an extremely available distraction.

She was medicating herself with gin before she left and from what I hear?    She hasn't skipped a beat in the booze department.

I've seen her one time about 18 months ago.    She is a total vanisher.

So.   I only see a picture of her now and then.    Still.    I had seen a picture taken just a month ago and she appears to be 50lbs heavy.     Dark circles under the eyes. 

I can't convince myself that she is head over heals happy with her new found freedom.

I can easily convince myself that she has some serious personal issues that need attention.

In that way?    She has acted the same as  a male MLCer.

[in it]

Yep - they are availalble. A catalyst for all of this nothing more. A clean slate (UGH)  Someone they might feel superior too. Someone who may have more issues than them. They may have had a history with them.

It could have been skydiving or car racing whatever might help them feel alive. But no - they prefer this kind of devastation instead.

[ruggedendurance]

in it,

I can see that a man may stray or feel compelled to have an affair because he hasn't had many partners.    But.   I don't see how that.   In itself.    Could cause a full blown MLC.

I can see that someone with little experience would be compelled to "find out" what it is like with other partners. 

If they were "just" experimenting.    There would be no need to demonize the spouse.   

They would simply say they made a decision.   Or.    They just wanted their freedom to do as they wish.   Or.    They would try to keep it a secret.   They didn't want to destroy the marriage.   They just wanted to "find out" 

In my opinion.   For a person to go into a full blown MLC.    There has to be a pain that lives at the very soul of the MLCer.   And..   It can be traced back to their childhood.

For a person to leave a committed relationship and spend thousands of dollars and have affairs with people beneath them and destroy anything that has been good in their lives???

They have to be at war with something agonizing within themselves.

[Medusa]

Fear of missing out, instead of a fear of failure...  I don't know, that's why I thought it would make a good discussion topic!       

Yes, fear of missing out. Mine told me that's part of what his crisis is about: he felt he missed out on all kinds of things, so the fear drives the desire for freedom. Mine gave me the song and dance about not wanting to be responsible for the family, anymore...he wanted the freedom to do whatever he wanted when he wanted.

To me they're inextricably interconnected and have nothing to do with gender. In a lot of ways it is a case of "holy hell, look at all there is!" It becomes that for both the MCLer and the LBS, I think. We do go through our own kind of identity crisis. The difference is that we are reasonably sane.

[Thunder]

in it...
I understand the ex didn't have many girlfriends before me so I guess he thought he missed out.

I feel the same way.  My X had almost no gf's before he met me.  He was only 21.  I think he just wanted to feel what it might have felt like with someone else.  He sure tried to meet someone new, it just never turned out for him.
Guess you can't blame them for thinking they missed out.  Maybe I would too.

I had a husband and many boyfriends before I met him. 
I knew I hadn't missed out.

[in it]

Yes I agree it's not one thing it's a combination.

 For the ex unresolved anger issues as he attacked a superviser at work and lost his job years before this happened. That started a huge downward spiral.

I just really didn't think he trade his whole family in to experience someone else. I was willing to give him money to go live with her and find out but he wouldn't do that either.
It was an all or nothing type of thing.

He has a lot of childhood issues to resolve. Not for me to deal with anymore thank God.

I simply need to stay away from him for just about ever as I ended up in the emergency room due to his issues.

[Medusa]

I understand the ex didn't have many girlfriends before me so I guess he thought he missed out.

Yep. Mine told me "I just need to f*** other people for awhile." Other people was really other person.

He thought he was missing out. Fine. Guess he thought I must have been missing out, too, since I was encouraged to sleep with other men (as long as their Pen!$ is smaller than his). 

[in it]

OMG Medusa I forgot that was you!!  Yep measuring tape at the ready WTF kind of a thing is that to say??

Yeah let him find out you'd been with someone else and see how he feels about that!!

[blackice]

i got the whole, i never knew anybody other than you speech. really. when i was the one who has never been with anyone else and he was so not a virgin when we met.

[in it]

Sounds like he's pulling a reverse on you blackice..the ex told me once " You know you never finish anything you start"

Excuse me? You are talking about yourself - not me.

That stuff will drive you nuts...

[blackice]

oh yeah definitely. also said he thought i didn't love him anymore, he buried his love for me and it scared him to feel that way about me because it was too strong, that i was boring and didn't want to do anything. when now all he does is sit in his apartment and watch movies and does nothing but text me and sit on facebook.

lots of projection on his end for justifying his affair and now he can't say anything cause he knows it isn't true.

[onlyjo]

LL
good discussion!
during my ex h's crisis, and when we were still living together, and married, and i was trying to figure out what the hell was going on, i texted a friend of mine and said "h is like the woman in this relationship"--and he WAS...

i agree that FEAR is the common thread here, with the MLCer male or female. FEAR of perceived conflict, FEAR of what others may think, just living FEARFULLY... (medusa--your ex h is also FEARFUL that someone may have a bigger Pen!$ than he does--makes me LAUGH every time i read it--you can't make this $h!te up!!!)  i also have to hone in on the WEAKNESS aspect as well, especially for my MLCer.  he is weak, weak, weak.  never developed, or was guided toward the importance of developing, a strong sense of self, or moral character, or any of it.  so the WEAKNESS is all tied up in the FOO issues...

for me, from my perspective, FEAR and WEAKNESS are the reason my ex h is where he is today. 
in a brief moment of awareness, ex h sent me an email that said:
you will never understand. you have always been so much stronger than i have.  i have emotional baggage that swallowed me whole. 

i'll have to read the links again, too.  good info.
thanks
onlyjo

[terrified_in_TN]

I understand the ex didn't have many girlfriends before me so I guess he thought he missed out.

Yep. Mine told me "I just need to f*** other people for awhile." Other people was really other person.

He thought he was missing out. Fine. Guess he thought I must have been missing out, too, since I was encouraged to sleep with other men (as long as their Pen!$ is smaller than his). 

  Ouch.  I can kind of relate to this, both as a male LBSer and from my MLC w's perspective.  Neither of us was very "experienced".  I had my own little MLC in 2009 with old flame.  Went no where.  Out of stagnation, possibly my own guilt, and the desire for my wife to NOT feel as though she missed out we had some "indiscretions" at the end.  She ended up leaving me for him.

  Although she kept saying "its not about HIM, its about ME".  She definitely hit that age where she went "whoa, there are fewer days ahead than there are behind, and I have not lived yet".

  Funny thing, after she turned off the emotional switch completely, she told me "I don't care if I end up poor and alone, at least I will be happy".  Later I questioned her about that comment and she clarified "alone" to mean "without a husband".  I think she has abandonment issues, is now that I look back, she has been wanting out of this marriage for a while, but she only jumped after she had another waiting in the wings.  Same thing she did to her first husband with me.  However, I figured a 20+ year long relationship was immune to falling apart.  Although things weren't perfect, I thought we were in it together for the long haul.

-Terrified

-EDIT-  Meant to add for those that don't know my story, w has NEVER been single in her life.  She got pregnant at 18, and married what I thought was the wrong guy for the right reasons.  Then she jumped out of that m into a relationship with me.  And although she has expressed desire to be "without a husband", looks like its that time in her life to jump out of the R with me and into R with the next guy (OM).

[in it]

Terrified- Looks like an exit affair. She had no way to really tell you she wanted out and not have someone else to use as an excuse.

And she was honest when she said it was about her and not him.

They tend to remove us from the picture. They have a tough time putting their brains as to what the reasons why might be.

And OJ? I felt more like the man in the relationship at just about every level. I told him once. "You'll make a man out of me yet"

[terrified_in_TN]

Terrified- Looks like an exit affair."

  Question-Does an exit affair mean it is NOT MLC?  In month 4 since BD, and now I am starting to wonder if she really loved me at all.  Since she was an accommodater her whole life, does that mean this "new" her is the "real" her?  Or is it in fact just a rebellious time period in her life?  I know my "mini MLC" in 2009 is when I "fell off the white horse" in my wife's eyes, but I only saw her ONCE, did not have a PA, and believe it or not, was actually THANKFUL I never married old flame, and realized just what I had at home.

  I said it before in another thread, ironically I could call old flame if I wanted to, but I have no desire to.  That chapter has been closed.

-Terrified

[in it]

I'm not sure- this relationship I ended up in was an exit affair and I really wanted to take some time off from relationships but the ex hounded me so bad and said a few things I bought and I ended up on the rollercoater again.

And I reconnected with an old flame in 1996 while married. He was a massive alcoholic and I wanted nothing to do with him. I closed that door..there was quite a bit of history.

But it wasn't due to seeing what I had at home with the ex..it was due to my children.

She may very well have abandonment issues. She can't seem to spend time living by herself.

[terrified_in_TN]

Didn't mean to hijack...I am just confused.  But I guess truly I should not try to MAKE sense of the sich, because it seems IMPOSSIBLE to make any sense at all of this.

What just really blows my mind, after BD, but before actual separation she was SO conflicted.  I could tell (or at least it seemed) that she still had feelings for me, but wanted a whole new life.  I remember I even got a txt from her saying she WANTED her marriage/family.  Fast Forward one month after she has got around OM full time, and now she seemingly is indifferent, or wants nothing to do with me.  It was only after we separated that she claimed he was "her exit strategy".  But the whole time prior to her departure, she was so confused.  Of course, now I am confused.  I have NO idea what to believe.  I am not standing, but somehow deep down I just do not want to believe that my 20+ year relationship has been a complete farce and hope for a sincere apology one day.  But I also know that I will have to find closure within myself, as THAT was the main reason I went to see old flame when I did.  Never had that proper closure.

-Terrified

-EDIT-  I meant to add, hows this for a mind #$%^:  Prior to w's departure she joked about both of us being remarried and having an affair with each other someday!  It may have just been a joke, but a strange one for sure.  Also, before she left she said many things that stand out...how about "maybe the separation will make me appreciate just what I have at home", or "if we end up divorced we should remarry someday for a fresh start".  WHAT. THE. HELL.

[in it]

Me too- that's why I did it- and I had some questions I wanted answered.
Now you are gonna drive yourslf nuts if you want closure from her. Have you read anything about narccisum?

[terrified_in_TN]

Me too- that's why I did it- and I had some questions I wanted answered.
Now you are gonna drive yourslf nuts if you want closure from her. Have you read anything about narccisum?

A little bit.  Honestly still don't understand it other than its seemingly an obsession with one's self.  Although my w sure is acting it now, I am not sure if that would fit her personality.  My w has low self esteem and low self worth.  Not sure why, she is a beautiful woman.  Well, now that I mention it, she felt she was an "ugly duckling" back in high school.  She definitely turned out to be a swan, but I think the low self esteem took hold from back then.

By the way, re-read my post above.  I added something at the end and I think you were typing at the moment I was editing.  I would LOVE to get your opinion on my edit bit.

-Terrified

[in it]

  I meant to add, hows this for a mind #$%^:  Prior to w's departure she joked about both of us being remarried and having an affair with each other someday!  It may have just been a joke, but a strange one for sure.  Also, before she left she said many things that stand out...how about "maybe the separation will make me appreciate just what I have at home", or "if we end up divorced we should remarry someday for a fresh start".  WHAT. THE. HELL.

I know I know it's sick!!  ..like without the sneaking around or this kind of devastation there's no "clean slate" possible. Focus on you..

And Narccissts have very low self esteem and self worth READ educate yourself and then google healing from narcisstic abuse and see if you can relate.. It' rare in women but it does happen.

[Medusa]

What just really blows my mind, after BD, but before actual separation she was SO conflicted.  I could tell (or at least it seemed) that she still had feelings for me, but wanted a whole new life.  I remember I even got a txt from her saying she WANTED her marriage/family.  Fast Forward one month after she has got around OM full time, and now she seemingly is indifferent, or wants nothing to do with me.  It was only after we separated that she claimed he was "her exit strategy".  But the whole time prior to her departure, she was so confused.  Of course, now I am confused.  I have NO idea what to believe.  I am not standing, but somehow deep down I just do not want to believe that my 20+ year relationship has been a complete farce and hope for a sincere apology one day.  But I also know that I will have to find closure within myself, as THAT was the main reason I went to see old flame when I did.  Never had that proper closure.

-Terrified

-EDIT-  I meant to add, hows this for a mind #$%^:  Prior to w's departure she joked about both of us being remarried and having an affair with each other someday!  It may have just been a joke, but a strange one for sure.  Also, before she left she said many things that stand out...how about "maybe the separation will make me appreciate just what I have at home", or "if we end up divorced we should remarry someday for a fresh start".  WHAT. THE. HELL.

Mine was the same, TNT. He thought at BD we were done then realized maybe we weren't. He told me the day I asked him to leave that he knew I was everything he ever wanted in a woman but couldn't stop with her even though he was trying...I just knew it was too soon and he was on the path to go back to her. He said he had to stop "torturing my wife" but couldn't. It was all about him. Still is.

I am convinced that the only way they can truly get through whatever their issues are is to be away from us with as little contact as possible. We need that as much or more in order to move on as best we can. That takes time...a long time. I've definitely dropped the rope, but I still struggle with wanting him to hear me and acknowledge what he did even though I know that may never happen. Each day it gets a little easier, though.

(medusa--your ex h is also FEARFUL that someone may have a bigger Pen!$ than he does--makes me LAUGH every time i read it--you can't make this $hit up!!!)  i also have to hone in on the WEAKNESS aspect as well, especially for my MLCer.  he is weak, weak, weak.  never developed, or was guided toward the importance of developing, a strong sense of self, or moral character, or any of it.  so the WEAKNESS is all tied up in the FOO issues...

for me, from my perspective, FEAR and WEAKNESS are the reason my ex h is where he is today. 
in a brief moment of awareness, ex h sent me an email that said:
you will never understand. you have always been so much stronger than i have.  i have emotional baggage that swallowed me whole. 

You are absolutely right about his fear of me finding a bigger Pen!$ than his. One thing I've wanted to say for many months is, "do you really think I can find a bigger d!ck an you?" 

I agree about the fear and weakness aspect. Mine told me a couple of months before he moved out that I was always so much smarter than him. I didn't understand, at the time, what he was really saying...he's one of the most brilliant men I've ever known. Except I am smarter because I'm the one to took a hard look at herself and started doing the work necessary to heal myself from my particular issues. He also told me that the whole problem was about his dad's death. I had my own issues with my parents and, again before he moved out, learned to understand and forgive. That's the difference between he and I: I am capable of forgiving and he isn't. He told me that one, too. What he doesn't get is that forgiveness is a decision. We have to heal from whatever our pain is in order to forgive. We have to consciously decide "I don't want to haul this around anymore because it's doing me no good". It takes a very brave person to truly forgive the things that have been done to us, I think, but its possible and necessary if we are going to live a fulfilling life.

I've told him I've forgiven most of what he did. I would like to tell him I've now forgiven all of it just as I've forgiven her for her role in the destruction of my life. I'd like to thank him for what he's done because as awful as it's all been, I'm a much better, happier person.

[terrified_in_TN]

You are absolutely right about his fear of me finding a bigger Pen!$ than his. One thing I've wanted to say for many months is, "do you really think I can find a bigger d!ck an you?" 

OMG!!!!!!!! LMAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  Thank you!  I needed that!

-Terrified

[terrified_in_TN]

READ educate yourself and then google healing from narcisstic abuse and see if you can relate.. It' rare in women but it does happen.

  I hate to say it but thankfully (or not?), I really cannot relate to this in our past relationship.  Although she is full on narcisstic now, it doesn't fit.

  I guess the problem I have is, in my mind...she is a BIG TIME accommodater.  I think I read somewhere chameleon would be a good description.  She has always done what has been expected of her, and tried to do what she thinks will please other people, or make herself look good in front of other people.  Another comment that I will never forget before she left:  "I am tired of always doing the right thing.  I want to be a bad girl for a change."  If you saw a pic of OM, mission accomplished.

  Anyway, the thing that made her want a divorce (but it was probably just an excuse, maybe any excuse would have done?) was when she went back to her hometown (OM lives there), her family thought something was odd.  She was acting like she was on vacation.  When I told w's sister the WHOLE story, and confessed to my wife, she got PISSED OFF.  I imagine because I ruined her "good girl" image that she has had all these years.  Ironically, she had also told me before she left that "I want to be able to tell people its MY life, and I am entitled to my own mistakes.  You either accept me for who I am, or you don't".  I guess I "pushed" her wishes too far, and she wasn't ready yet.  Anyway, THAT is when she "screamed" in a text "I want a divorce"-when I told her sister the entire truth of the demise of our relationship and that she had left me for OM (which sister knows and thinks he is pond scum).

-Terrified

[Medusa]

TNT, the whole "good" I,age is pretty common. They don't want to admit to the world that they left us for someone else. Mine and I agreed that separation was the nest thing and that has morphed into me throwing him out. When my idiot BIL took mine to task for what he was doing, he was pissed beyond belief that I would tell BIL. I didn't: I told my sister.

Remember that they know what their doing is wrong and they are am harassed by it. Mine once went off about how he looked like a "buffoon". Hey buddy, of the shoe fits...!

Mine was also an accommodator who always had to do the right thing to please others, etc. I also got that he was tired of doing the right thing including taking care of other people. That, of course, is why he became a knight in shining armor for OW.

Don't try to make sense of it. Every time you think you've got it figured out, you remember something completely contradictory. Believe nothing they say and half of what they do--and good luck figuring out which half to believe!

[Neo]

The many different personality aspects of an MLCer is definitely one that can twist your mind into knots trying to figure them out. I believe it is a potent cocktail of many issues that have been manifesting in them from their childhood trauma. Fear, abandonment, depression, low self-esteem, weakness, communication problems and the list could go on and on. The simple fact is that it is a very complex situation that the MLCer finds themselves in which, much like a black hole, pulls in everything around it. We being the most loved in their lives, just happen to be too close to the event horizon and get to experience the pain of being ripped apart as they disappear into the darkened abyss of the life that is spinning out of control.

From many of the posts I have read, it certainly appears that men who go into MLC, seem to stick around their wives more than wives sticking around the men, who they have left. It may have something to do with the whole freedom aspect that was talked about earlier in the postings or is it because women tend to become emotionally involved so much quicker than men do? Especially if the woman, has technically "checked out" from the relationship, at least in her mind, sometimes months or years in advance. Never telling their partners anything about how they were feeling or what was making them unhappy. Another explanation is that women tend to have depression at twice the rate as men, so maybe, the depression causes them to "shut down" more fully than men do?

Just postulating, other thoughts are appreciated.

 

[in it]

IMHO there has to be a balance in the personality. And the pedulum swings way left and maybe even right before it comes back to some kind of center.

If she was always the good girl? Her urge to not be overode everything..same with the good guy.

In my situation MONEY played a huge part he inherited and became God. He was always an @$$hole. Never a thought or care or anything much for me. It was his image he was concerned with more than anything.

I'll say this much I did feel sorry for him. That's not love. But real care or concern are no small things.

[Dji76]

My W was much like terrifieds for 2 weeks after bd. Her ea was discovered and it seemed to send her into full blown crisis. He broke off communication with my W which seemed to send her into a really bad place. She immediately put herself out there for any and all. She told me just last week that she has realized she simply can't "make a connection with anyone". So here's my insight based on my situation... Most MLCers are depressed and self medicate prior to bd. The "addict mind" gets a rush from the chemicals flooding the brain during the affair. This causes them to believe THAT is love. For those of us in long relationships of course that hasn't happened regularly in a long time. I believe the depressed addict is drawn to the high those chemicals create.

All of this is just a chemical distraction from their normal life which they believe is causing their depression. They don't have the tools or skills to process what is going on and make an intellectual decision. Like any over drug addict they are chasing the next high. As for the women seeing it as freedom, I would agree that is how my w feels. She has said as much to other people. I think she misplaced fitting herself into the role of mother and spouse that she chose into me being over controling if that makes sense?

To summarize, I belive it has more to do with the affair for those that have one. It's a temporary escape from the depression. That kicks everything off and then an endless pursuit of that high follows. My sitch may be a little different as the EA was out of the picture about 5 weeks post bd. I think that really f'd up my w even more. She left her husband and kids for this guy who then vanished on her! It probably would have been "better" had that R played out. Now it seems like she's on the lookout for someone to complete the process with. Problem is she's having a hard time finding an emotional connection with another man.

Sorry to have rambled, should have taken more time to organize my thoughts...

[in it]

No it's ok it's a discussion and most of us understand what you mean..ramble away.

Once the ex was done with her.. it was on to being a rock star..which didn't pan out either.

[Neo]

I agree that there has to be balance in the personality, that is one of the fundamental laws of nature. Nature is always trying to strike a balance. If there is an imbalance nature takes, sometimes dramatic steps to bring things back into balance.

This is what I believe is going on in the minds of MLCer's, there is a titanic battle being waged in their minds between fear, depression and weakness. Fear of not knowing who they truly are. Depression due to lack of self-esteem and no love for themselves and weakness because they can't face any of their demons.

[terrified_in_TN]

I think Dj and init are both right.  I guess sometimes I confuse myself because...well this whole situation is confusing!

I recognize my faults in the demise of my m, and I understand the wife needed adventure and emotional stimulation that I was not providing.  I was concentrating all my efforts on erasing years of bad financial decisions, and what did it get me?  To a place where financially I'm in a good place, but about to be ruined anyway.

Balance is key.  Maybe in my w's case, that pendulum has swung way over to the other side.  I do hope one day it does come to rest at center, whether I'm in the picture or not.  Oddly enough, I haven't been exactly balanced either, but through this process am becoming better balanced.  SSSlllllllooooowwwwwwwllllllyyyyyyyyy LOL

-Terrified

[onlyjo]

hi all
more interesting reading...
thanks again LL for starting this thread!

Medusa:

We have to consciously decide "I don't want to haul this around anymore because it's doing me no good". It takes a very brave person to truly forgive the things that have been done to us, I think, but its possible and necessary if we are going to live a fulfilling life.

completely agree.  what i found so OFFENSIVE about this whole mess, is that ex h WOULD NOT DECIDE.  i kind of understand about the whole MLC thing and not being able to think and process rationally, blah blah blah. 

the fact of the matter is that ex h was deeply invested in victimhood and projection and blame and just plain WEAKNESS.  he DECIDED NOT to turn toward our marriage (mostly good, some bad, but from my perspective, imperfect but good), he DECIDED NOT to do the "right thing", he CHOSE to abandon his family (he doesn't see it that way), he CHOSE to become involved with a married woman and particiate in the destruction of not one, but two families. 

i got all up in his face one time and told him how OFFENSIVE it was to me that he acted like he had nothing to do with any of these circumstances, like he was a feather in the wind or something--like this $h!te "JUST HAPPENED"--i do, however, think he was being somewhat honest when he did say "it just happened"--which makes me all the more convinced that there is a lot of truth to the whole MLC thing--BECAUSE HE WAS SO SCRIPT...
uuuuugh. 

WEAKNESS, FEAR, AND VICTIMHOOD...forget it!  i choose to find joy every day by living a life that's full of integrity and generosity.  of COURSE he's TOO WEAK to look in the mirror.  especially NOW, after he's perpetrated all kinds of $h!te on (for lack of a better word) innocent parties...he was TOO WEAK to deal with his own $h!te prior to destroying 2 families, i can't EVEN IMAGiINE that he's even CONSIDERED doing the work he would need to do in order to "face his demons"--he quoted this to me once, and guess what?!?!?!?  now i AM one of those demons--ha!  not really, but i gotta get a laugh when i can...

ex h and his OW can have their weakness, fear and victimhood together...i wonder if it's like how two negative numbers multiplied yield a positive number--if you put all the $h!te from both ex h and ow (all their FOO issues, all their deceit, all their BAD CHOICES, all their "poor me-ing") into a bucket and stir it up, will everything come up roses?  ha!  i can't imagine that, but perhaps stranger things have happened...
onlyjo

[Dji76]

That's exactly right in it! Is that normal?? rockstar is exactly how I would describe her at the moment. I suspect she needs to find a real affair partner to move along through the tunnel? Did I dodge a bullet??

[Dji76]

Victim hood, low self esteem/worth, indecision all present in my W as well

[in it]

Yes..they will go down every tunnel they thought they missed in their teens and twenties. Whenever they suffered the most emotional damage. I figure he was about 17 at the time of first BD...his band thing maybe he's gotten to his 20's by then...he was borderline sociopath by the time he kicked me out...What age? I have no idea... I have no idea what he was thinking when he shoved me hard enough for me to end up at the hospital. He'd lost control of the situation.

This guy has a good voice but he's no front man too afraid he might make a mistake.So the band thing was again a fantasy.

He acted like a real "he man" one day and said " The only way you can hurt a man is in his wallet" What an @$$hole. I hope his money makes him happy now. And keeps him warm this winter.

Yes you did dodge a bullet stay away from her and heal. Sometimes givng someone a second chance is like giving them another bullet because they missed you the first time.

[confused_but_trying]

I agree that there has to be balance in the personality, that is one of the fundamental laws of nature. Nature is always trying to strike a balance. If there is an imbalance nature takes, sometimes dramatic steps to bring things back into balance.

This is what I believe is going on in the minds of MLCer's, there is a titanic battle being waged in their minds between fear, depression and weakness. Fear of not knowing who they truly are. Depression due to lack of self-esteem and no love for themselves and weakness because they can't face any of their demons.

This pretty much sums up what I believe my w to be going through based on things she said to me at BD and things I noticed during our relationship.  She is afraid of "missing out", depressed because of "her situation (being stuck) being MY mother, of her lack of self esteem (big time factor here), etc", and she is weak, as you said, because she cannot face any of her demons.  My w prior to this was never narcissistic; she was very much the opposite.  Her sister told me not long after BD that she had gotten so full of herself that she couldn't stand to be around her.  So strange.

I suppose my situation is a little different in that I am almost 100% positive there was no OM prior to BD.  I currently believe that he now may be out of the picture.  Are there any "scripts" for women suffering from mlc that didn't have another man prior to BD?  Everything I have read indicates an affair leading up to BD.

[Dji76]

My w was narcissistic prior to bd. Others couldn't stand it but I saw it for the facad that it was... A cover for her insecurities. Just like bct my SILs can't stand to be around my W because she is "so full of herself". She even describes herself as "powerful" now.

[in it]

There is a healthy balance of narcissism in self esteem and when people we thought loved us simply don't for whatever reason we tend to take it personally.

I don't profess I've reached the level of not taking all that's gone on personally... it's pretty difficult not to.

The family I had apparently thought I was a doormat. Too kind, too accommodating, trying to hard on my own to save the family. They didn't realize that kindness and compassion and caring are not a sign of weakness. My return garnered no respect.

The ex viewed my love for my children as obsession..which isn't true. So he turned them againest me. He thought that would kill me..but it didn't.

So he devastated the family by bringing the exow in and divorcing me. Assaulted me. Then turned my children againest me.

I told the oldest D (who he actually persuaded to swear out and order of protection againest me which was dismissed) I would have both her and her father arrested if they came near me.

  I'm  standing- for me.

Am I the b!tc#? Maybe.

IMHO My dark side has been revealed to them in a little rough justice. 

[Medusa]

the fact of the matter is that ex h was deeply invested in victimhood and projection and blame and just plain WEAKNESS.  he DECIDED NOT to turn toward our marriage (mostly good, some bad, but from my perspective, imperfect but good), he DECIDED NOT to do the "right thing", he CHOSE to abandon his family (he doesn't see it that way), he CHOSE to become involved with a married woman and particiate in the destruction of not one, but two families. 

Exact same. It "just happened". I consider both of them reprehensible.

 

This is what I believe is going on in the minds of MLCer's, there is a titanic battle being waged in their minds between fear, depression and weakness. Fear of not knowing who they truly are. Depression due to lack of self-esteem and no love for themselves and weakness because they can't face any of their demons.

Yep. Having been fortunate enough to live with one that is self-aware, I can attest to this being the case (with mine at least). he said he doesn't know who he is, anymore. He recognized depression to an extent but wouldnt do anything about it. he went to counseling for a short time but quit, supposedly because it was too expensive (I believe it was because he was getting too close to those demons and not ready to deal with them.

They are in the process of growing up. That's hard for us to accept because they should be grown. But as In It said, they need to go down tunnels and experienced everything they think they missed before they can understand the problem is them and start taking responsibility for themselves. If they ever do.

And for me that is the saddest part of all of this...there is no guarantee they will ever come out of the fog.

[terrified_in_TN]

Its amazing to me if you really think about it.  As a guy I am a pretty logical thinker.  In my case also...I gave the wife and ultimatum, and she CHOSE to leave to pursue R with OM.  But if you ask her that, it wasn't her fault.  She doesn't see it that way either!  She can't accept responsibility for her own decisions.

I can't remember what thread it was in or who said it (I think it was in it), but they mentioned for the first year post BD they were so convinced their spouse would wake up.  That was scarey for me to read, because 4 months post BD that is where I am.  However, I am trying to convince myself no matter how many bread crumbs w left me before separation, she is going to be one of those to "get stuck", and never come out (rough childhood).

I do have to ask for those that have knowledge...what impact does divorce have on any possible r in the future, if any?  I told w I consider d the "nail in the coffin", but I don't discount the possibility of a future reconnection.

I know sounds an aweful lot like I am waffling back and forth...I am not standing, but honestly deep down I do hope for reconciliation one day, but my gut is also telling me its never going to happen...she is done and gone.

-Terrified

[Dji76]

Divorce is just the end of the contract with the state. It's only the "nail in the coffin" if you make it that. This doesn't mean you will reconnect, doesn't mean you won't. I'm sure you have read that 10% of divorced couples remarry. Move on and live a good life. i think MeNow has a great outlook on how to handle the situation after divorce, He seems so calm about it all.

[LisaLives]

Divorce is just the end of the contract with the state. It's only the "nail in the coffin" if you make it that. This doesn't mean you will reconnect, doesn't mean you won't. I'm sure you have read that 10% of divorced couples remarry. Move on and live a good life. i think MeNow has a great outlook on how to handle the situation after divorce, He seems so calm about it all.

I don't think we know that they move on and live a good life.  I know people who have divorced and remarried, and divorced again, also.  And I know one couple who D'ed and remarried, but that was a mistake...  D is only the nail in the coffin if you want it to be, but don't be so sure that once you get out of the swamp you will still hope for R.  Just do what you need to do for you, NOW and worry about the rest later...  JMHO, but don't outdrive your headlights, ll

[Dji76]

Yes that was what I was trying to say. Us lbs need to live a good life going forward and let the future take care of itself. I agree most of us would not want the MLCer back once we are seeing things clearly again.

[Medusa]

Yes that was what I was trying to say. Us lbs need to live a good life going forward and let the future take care of itself. I agree most of us would not want the MLCer back once we are seeing things clearly again.

We cannot know if we would want them back once they get through their tunnel. We don't know who they will be any more  than we know who we will be. For me, worrying about the future that far out is wasted energy.

[in it]

If you can manage to stay away from the drama and crazy you get more clarity. Perspective changes if you open yourself up to it.

I've met other people, if you put yourself out there, who have had it tougher than me.

I'm don't necessarily mean another romantic relationship. You have to grieve this loss before you can move on in a healthy manner.