[LisaLives]

MB, Narcs actually do have a very low sense of self-esteem in many cases--their narc behavior is how they mask that.  And there is the "fragile" variety narc which is what I think my exH is.  They have the behaviors, but not the outward manifestations.  We are all insecure, and we all deal with it in diferent ways, some maladaptive and that's all NPD is.  So he still could be, don't write it off...  Or not, who really knows--narcs never admit it...  Love to you, Lisa

[Freddygone]

Hi Buggy, I research it allong with MLC because my wife is associated with a strong Narc. The thing is outwardly they seem confident and strong, but inside they feel inferior and are fighting for recognition and will lie and cheat to do it. They have no scruples.
They generally become this way way back from childhood when they probably had a really bad time. But don't spare too much sympathy, because you will get not a scrap from them. They only leg themselves up by trampling on others.
I am 2.5 years into research affairs, MLC and Narcs. It's quite entertaining as you realise none of this is about us.
We just had some really BAD LUCK.
You see the disorder we standers have is that we are determined, researching, 'not to be moved', intelligent and normally quite successful individuals.

[StandandDeliver]

Hi Freddy, not to sound to narcissistic but I do think I am all of those great traits (except successful - if anyone wants to offer me a job, I am keen to be successful!  )

[Freddygone]

Hi St&Del,
We have been so far down.........
of course you are successful, but you are only on the way UP. You want a job? What do you do? What do you want to do?
The only way is UP, we are all on the way UP.

[honour]

, there is always a narcissist in the mix here with MLC and affairs. But as described in this thread, they boost themselves as valuable achievers, but in fact this is all a lie and they have achieved nothing and are desperate to cover it up and have behaviour that says 'look at me, aren't I having a good time'. But inside they are frightened, insecure and suffering. We protected them for a long time. This is a falling glass we cannot catch. We have to watch it fall.   

Good work Freddy, very profound.

When W was spinning off into fantasy land, sub-consciously there was a voice in the back of my mind that was saying "I can't protect you any more".

It was heartbreaking but I have let the glass fall.

honour

[Freddygone]

Honour,
this to me is the hardest part. I could see my wife ripping the family and 30 year marriage apart, knew that it was not in character, but my only way to deal with it was to leave. Let the glass fall.
My girls were already away at University and I had to put distance between myself and this behaviour.
I travelled back each week , then each fortnight then longer and now it is every few months. Support the family financially and the home and all that is required, but she has to find her way and I can't fix everything like I used to.
Basically the family has exploded and my W is alone with the alienator, her in the family home and he is his home.
MLC is abusive to all who are emotionally close. I think it is harder for people with small children, (usually the wives of MLC men) because they can't get away.
But confronting a Narcissist makes things worse, they take power from confrontation unless you can deal them such a powerful blow of exposure that they lose their credibility with everyone, you will just make matters worse. They are charming, clever and ruthless people.
The Narcissist wins up  to the point where he thinks he has won, then I believe he makes a fatal mistake and shows his true colours and the whole pack of cards should fall apart.
I was lucky, I could take a job somewhere else and leave. It is easier to deal with this in your own head if you can get away. I don't know how some wives maintain there sanity when faced with this.

[honour]

But confronting a Narcissist makes things worse, they take power from confrontation unless you can deal them such a powerful blow of exposure that they lose their credibility with everyone, you will just make matters worse. They are charming, clever and ruthless people.
The Narcissist wins up  to the point where he thinks he has won, then I believe he makes a fatal mistake and shows his true colours and the whole pack of cards should fall apart.
I was lucky, I could take a job somewhere else and leave. It is easier to deal with this in your own head if you can get away. I don't know how some wives maintain there sanity when faced with this.

They are utterly ruthless. And often these people can be high achievers. I have had the misfortune of being associated with three seriously narcissist/psychopathic  people (four if you include my W but I believe hers is temporary) each one was utterly ruthless. One in particular has a weak softly demeanour with a handshake like a wet rag. It was all calculated. Once this guy had got you where he wanted you he could strike psychological terror into you. There was nothing weak at all.
But they lie and lie and lie. In their view honesty and integrity are for naïve people. But eventually, as you point out, they make mistakes . The guy I referred to above eventually was apprehended for a £3 million fraud. I introduced my W to this guy once at a social occasion, afterwards I asked her what she thought of him. She couldn't believe that the person she had met was capable of all the stuff I had witnessed and told her about. Narcs are utterly charming and ruthless. You have to witness it to truly believe it.

And I agree, they do derive "supply" from confrontation. If you confront, it has to be a knockout blow.

Freddy you seem to have insight that suggests you have had first hand dealings with this sort of personality?

Like you I was lucky...but it was my W who took a job elsewhere,  in another country actually and my children are D22 and S19 so they are not damaged, in fact they tell me they have grown from the experience. So very lucky, The three of us are very close.

My view is, my W's OM being a narc he is not going to live "happily ever after" with his now soul mate. He will require continual narcissist supply, and as you say,  this is when they show their true colours and the house of cards falls down. I worry for W when that happens. It is likely she is involved with a truly "nasty piece" of work and is separated from all family and friends by a big sea and 600 miles.

honour

[Freddygone]

Honor, your situation is similar to mine.
My W is with a guy who is considered to be a high achiever (in his head) but he is a conman. Calls himself an Architect. People believe him because he has the presence and he takes on big projects then uses others with the skills to do the work while he takes the credit.
Flashy web sites and everything.
I am a long way from UK but I see what he has been doing and fooling people and my W was taken in by this 'self made' man.
But he is not qualified, did not spend the 7 years it takes to qualify. The only thing he has made is his self image to combat inadequacy.
Now the economy has taken a dip and It may be that he is found out. Building work is not in demand so much.
When he met my wife he had a partner of 15 years, she was cast aside and Narcissists will do this once they have achieved what they want, which is often money. In many cases they will break a family to gain control of the W money. Then find an excuse to gaslight and discard them too. But they will have the money.
You see how the jigsaw falls into place?
As you say at the end, the host that they preyed on (the W) will have nothing, this person that they 'loved' so much will be wasted.
I really hope it does not come to that and that the W wakes up in time and fights to get out.
But like a fly in a spiders web, it will be difficult if associated with a Narc.
 

[LisaLives]

As my NG and I carve our path to a second marriage as LBSs, we hit LOTS of roadblocks.  Most of them are the massive hunks of debris from our failed lives.  And as I am five years, two relationships, and another MLC (ex's brother) from my atomic disaster, I see so much more perspective.     

And though I do think about him less, I am still, occasionally panic-stricken when I think it was my fault and it might happen again.  And so does NG.  Then I found these two pieces: 

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/elloa-atkinson/i-love-my-husband-but-heres-why-i-want-to-cheat_b_5909882.html

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/good-men-project/my-wife-told-me-she-wants-to-cheat_b_6079252.html?utm_hp_ref=love--sex

Which led me back to: 

http://www.cslewisinstitute.org/CS_Lewis_on_Love (scroll to the piece on courage, if you don't want to read the whole thing)

And I am even more firmly entrenched in my belief that MLC is Fear, out-of-control.  And fear, in a psychologically unhealthy person can't be driven out by love--because love makes us vulnerable and leads to more fear, until you can wrestle your demons.  So, at MLC, people look to other means to drive out fear, and that leads to narcissism, which is just another term for a psychological riot shield.  It is not internal protection, but an ugly artificial barrier against the bad stuff.  However, since it can't be selective, it blocks the good stuff, too... 

And so, as we walk our path, we are learning to be emotionally honest.  And I finally understand how hard this is for men.  He has fear, like Nige above, about a LOT of things, but to reveal them to me goes against EVERYTHING we teach boys and men.  It makes him vulnerable and sometimes he cries, and he has to risk that I will still love him if I see he is not the "MAN" he is supposed to be.  And I better understand my ex.  He was not strong enough to admit his fear...  Love and light, ll 

[ruggedendurance]

Lisa,

I read this and agree with all of it.

Except.

The person described is my XW.

Unfortunately.    This can happen to women also.

My X would never show a weakness or admit a mistake to anybody.............

It went against her very being to allow herself to be vulnerable..............

After a 28 yr. marriage.    She has vanished for over two years now.   

As painful as all of this has been for me?    Even coming to terms with the fact that I may have been a doormat to her at different times?

I would rather be able to love someone and take the risk of being hurt.

Than live her life.

I didn't say that out of anger.    I hope she can find out what her problem is.    I pray to God that she finds some peace.    I am still convinced there is a wonderful person trapped inside of her.

It was just my assessment of the situation.