[LettingGo]

I'm with AnneJ on this one.... if you don't want to read her husband and OW's correspondence, then DON'T.... that way you won't be invading their PRIVACY!!  When the MLCer and his OW post their faces TOGETHER up on FB... when they parade around town and impose themselves on family members that are UNCOMFORTABLE with their adultery, then they aren't being very PRIVATE, are they? MLCers don't care about PRIVACY... they care about SECRECY and CONTROL.

The information available to us about MLC behaviors is just that... INFORMATION!! But without some VALIDATION... i.e. "straight from the horse's mouth" it is really, really hard to believe what is happening is real. If you need MORE privacy than an anonymous user name, referring to OW as OW or hobag instead of posting her REAL NAME AND ADDRESS, and have a spouse that is stalking you or super tech savvy and the attention span to follow you all over, then your situation requires more firewalls and less info and I'm truly glad I don't have that in my sitch.

Some of us have spouses that reveal A LOT in their touch n goes.... passing along that information into their thought processes is sometimes what allows an LBS to keep going for ONE MORE DAY.... to have faith it is an illness with an expiration date... if you don't give a rat's a**, then why bother to even read the reconciliation stories?? Because you are looking for understanding and HOPE!!

I'm personally sick and tired of the "Don't talk about your spouse, it's not allowed..." police on this site.... I sure can't talk about him anywhere else!! It helps to remind me I'm NOT alone when I get to INDULGE in some TALK ABOUT MY SPOUSE and the impact his MLC has on my family and my life.... stop telling me I can't talk about him! I focus on ME every hour I'm not on here, which is more and more... I take care of kids, go to my job, go on vacation, GAL, hang with friends, talk on the phone with friends, shop, watch tv.. and GUESS WHAT??? In the rest of my life NO ONE even knows my husband is gone, cuz I CAN'T TALK ABOUT IT!! So, where am I allowed to talk about it??

It's Baloney to think you can erase that puzzle from your mind, and I feel it is nearly abusive to wag the finger every time someone mentions what their husband did or how they can't stand OW!! You know, it's nice to just be able to SAY THE TRUTH sometimes!! I get it.... and the REST of my life, I focus on me and the kids. PRETENDING like your spouse and their actions or behaviors or things they say don't have an impact is fake....PRETENDING like it doesn't matter, doesn't count, doesn't hurt is also fake.

Acknowledging the TRUTH helps the LBS to move on... stop assuming everyone who mentions their spouse is wallowing... they may be processing and a little SUPPORT would be nice... if you disagree, then don't read the thread. AnneJ doesn't need JUDGEMENT for posting this stuff. I found it fascinating, yet horrifying to read and very insightful.

That being said, I do believe the LBS can get stuck in ANGER AND RESENTMENT in an overindulgence of "Can you believe how awful he is to me?", but simply adding to the info for us to draw from is not wallowing in victimhood.

[Anjae]

Thanks, LG

I'm not wallowing in victimhood. The letters stuff is from mid 2006 to early 2008, from a long time ago. I've been on this MLC thing for too long to feel a victim.

Like you, I've found it fascinating, horrifying and very insightful. Everything is MLC is fascinating and horrifying. There is nothing pretty about MLC. The only good thing of MLC is how much of a better person both we and our spouse (and even other person) can become is everyone comes out of it successfuly.

This stuff is information, that's all.

Agree with you, there is a reason why we use nick names, do not refer to our spouse for its name, do not refer OW/OM name or address. And there is also a reason why we are here: so that we can talk about the MLC, the way it affect us and our spouses, what our spouses do during the crisis, how he feel about it. It is our way of passing info for other people in the same situation.

Also, if not where, really, where are we going to feel free to talk about every issue that comes with the crisis?...

No, when our spouses post themselves and other person, and exchange public love declarations in FB they are not being private at all. They even use their real names and everything. They are also not being private when they go around town together, when they bring other person to meet family and friends or when they go and meet other person family and friends.

I don't even believe my husband was being howful with me on porpuse. Reading from the letter made me realise in what a mess and fog he must had been in. I can also see how the affair progressed and unfold. And that is very helpful and a very good insight.

[StillStanding]

No, when our spouses post themselves and other person, and exchange public love declarations in FB they are not being private at all. They even use their real names and everything. They are also not being private when they go around town together, when they bring other person to meet family and friends or when they go and meet other person family and friends.

Just for the record, I don't consider this an acceptable reason to post their private correspondence.

Maybe your MLCer is walking around town with the OP; maybe they have pushed the OP onto friends and family and kids. However, their relationship -- as dysfunctional and hopefully short-lived as it may be -- is still their private business.

Would you consider it fair if the OP found love letters or cards that you and your spouse shared and posted them on the internet? If not, why not? Your relationship was just as "open" and "public" as theirs is.

[Love being on higher grounds]

Also just for the record...

From the thesauras...

1. (noun) privacy, privateness, seclusion
the quality of being secluded from the presence or view of others
Synonyms: privateness, SECRECY, concealment, seclusion, PRIVACY

My original post has NOTHING to do with talking about our spouses, we all do, we need to and this forum is our one safe place that we have where we are able to do it.

As for our spouses posting openly on FB or parading OP around town, or family members...well,that is their choice.Also as sick and wrong as it may be, we cant stop them. However the persons they are doing it in front of have the option to let them know just how uncomfortable it makes them. I would think we LBS would all agree that our spouses are then ones that are ill, that are making bad decisions and displaying despicable behavior.

The impact that this has on us and on our families is immeasurable! I dont even think there is a way to fake that! If I couldnt talk to my friends and family about it, they would no doubt think I was CRAZY! They may not have faith in the process like I do, because they havent learned about it the way I have. They do however SUPPORT my decision to stand, because they believe in me.

The information that is here for us is just that, information. Tools to help us gain an understanding into what is going on with our spouses. It is VERY good to speak the truth and get it out. There are MANY ways of doing that however without posting private correspondence between two people.

[StandandDeliver]

SS - for all I know my H and or OW could be posting stuff about me somewhere! And, there is nothing that I can do about it, and I actually don't care, they can do what they want, I can't control them.  I have never sent notes to either of them that I need to feel ashamed of, I was never secretive behind my H's back, so other than some correspondance talking about how sad I am about his behaviour and how I feel he has destroyed our family, I am not sure what ammunition he has. In any case, I am sure that H and OW go around telling anyone who will listen their rewritten version of my marriage because they need to justify what they have done. I also can't stop that, I just have to hope that most people are smart enough to see that for what it is and if the aren't, so be it. I come on an anonymous support forum precisely to discuss the wrongs that I feel have been committed because of his MLC and their adulterous affair. The damage to my family, the lack of any sort of empathy from them is one of the things I feel the need to get off my chest, because I can't talk about it in RL anymore.  I do not use their names and I am very careful to disguise any details that might immediately identify them. Nontheless if they find my threads and decide to "out" themselves, there is nothing I can do. I can only hope that they will read what I have written about them, and actually feel ashamed because I have not been particularly nasty, cruel or unkind about either of them, but they can't honestly be expecting my blessing either. If H did not want me to know about his laundry emails to OW, he did not have to show them to me. I did not snoop, but even if I had, if he was using technology that belonged to me in order to lie, then I think he probably gave up any rights to "privacy" by using my computer to do so.   And I reiterate that I have not copied any private correspondance - I have mentioned details of notes that H let me read in front of him. That is no different than recounting something he told me about his R with OW at a later date.  I have always respected privacy so far as privacy DOES NO HARM, but I also believe that freedom of speech and expression trumps privacy, it is a rights issue that is thorny, but ultimately I believe that where privacy has been used as a means of deceiving and hurting others it loses some of its potency. Privacy can be used as a euphenism for SECRECY and they should not always be viewed as the same thing. Legally and morally H's loyalty and privacy should have been connected to me, as a married couple deceiving me was the immoral act. Whilst two wrongs do not make a right, I don't believe that discussing what he wrote to OW is wrong, especially where he either gave permission to read it, or used my property to do so. If someone is using something of mine to do something wrong, then I have every right to make that public... that is my take on it, of course you are free to disagree, but it does not make my point of view "sick"

[LettingGo]

Look, these days people post their bowel movements all over the internet..... it's what they do. Somehow everyone survives.

I don't need anyone else to tell me how I should protect my MLCer and OW's "privacy".  Its anonymous here.

[Rollercoasterider]

This thread is just so WRONG!
I dont believe that reading all of this stuff will help anyone...even if it is claimed to be amusing...it is SICK!

In July 2005 Sweetheart came over to visit—this was during the first leave. I had recently purchased a small digital recorder because he was saying things that were mixed—like what he’d give me in a settlement—and I wanted to record such things as well as his inconsistencies in case I was able to claim he was not competent to have filed for divorce.
I recorded his 90 minute visit and then spent the next 3-4 hours transcribing it. Seriously, 3-4 hours. Then I posted the entire conversation—I’ve still got it. I found it interesting, but it was over-focusing! The people at DB blasted me for it—claims of privacy etc. So when it comes to posting conversations—word-for-word…I’ve got you beat!
I still find the conversation to have great information, but people were right—I was a newbie at that time; it was ~3.5 months after Bomb Drop—I was focusing too much on Sweetheart and the MLC. That same evening I promised my mentor I would not do it again, but that I would use what I had.

So do I think this thread is just wrong, that reading this stuff has no benefit and that it is sick?
No, I don’t. Why…? Because of these explanations.

I was simply trying to demonstrate that the level of depth in the affair relationship is very superficial, which may help some people who are trying to understand how their long term partner with whom a deep relationship had been formed over years could believe that they are in love with someone else because they understand each other's laundry issues (sorry facetious). It does demonstrate the crisis element in all of this. And actually, in some ways it is funny.

This thread is not meant to be funny. It is merely for information, and like StandandDeliver, kikki and honour said, it is a way of showing us all, LBS what really goes between and MCLer and other person. It allow us to see how shallow, superficial and fantasy land it is. Also, how troubled and confused the MCLer is.

AnneJ’s initial post was informational and gave insight into the relationship dynamics of the MLCer and alienator.

I'm with AnneJ on this one.... if you don't want to read her husband and OW's correspondence, then DON'T.... that way you won't be invading their PRIVACY!!

That’s not fair; a valid topic can go off course. It’s not fair to tell people they should just not read a certain topic—this topic is interesting, but it is a risky topic in that it is one of those where we can easily fall off course from information into unhealthy focus and worse demonization where we may insult the MLCer and alienator and laugh at them scornfully.

Its a comedy! With lots of high drama!

I get it, MLCers and their alienators are often idiots—so are teenagers. It’s not that we discourage laughing, but laughing scornfully is inappropriate. And promoting it more so. This comment did not hit my radar as bothersome, but I think this and others is what tipped other posters over to disapproving of this topic.
Because really, was Bomb Drop funny to you? High Drama, sure, but I doubt any of you found it funny-ha-ha. If I were to create a television series based on an MLC situation I’d prefer it to be an hour long drama or a comedy like M*A*S*H was a comedy—Alan Alda has said that they never considered it a comedy. The show used humor to highlight tragedy, but it never made fun of the tragedy; it was more a call to action.
We all find aspects of this amusing—though not in a pleasurable way and so when we find something amusing we need to balance that with the pain within out amusement rather than making it into a tabloid meant for sentationalist entrtainment.

The information that is here for us is just that, information. Tools to help us gain an understanding into what is going on with our spouses.

But it’s not just information when we add our commentary and opinions to it. Added commentary can add up to just information when it is kept informational. But when we make it salacious by laughing at them with judgement and scorn we take it beyond what is beneficial information, we are then lowering ourselves to their level.

The main website where others cannot add comments is just information. The Blog articles are just information which is expanded beyond information in the comments section and here at the forum. When we take the information into a community and discuss it, we create something more than just information.

So please, maybe this thread is not helpful, but then neither is the holier than thou, quasi legal argument against it...

That’s not fair. Everyone has a right to their opinion and this is yours, but it is stated rudely by using sensational terms to insult the opinions of those who feel differently. Holier than though? Come on, if you want to argue for or against something, your argument will be stronger when you keep it clean; if you think the argument for the other side is holier than thou offer evidence to support the statement; otherwise it’s just mudslinging.

I'm personally sick and tired of the "Don't talk about your spouse, it's not allowed..." police on this site.... I sure can't talk about him anywhere else!! It helps to remind me I'm NOT alone when I get to INDULGE in some TALK ABOUT MY SPOUSE and the impact his MLC has on my family and my life.... stop telling me I can't talk about him! I focus on ME every hour I'm not on here, which is more and more...

Look at what I am choosing to do with my life. I was writing some of my earliest articles while in the throes of Sweetheart’s MLC. Some were Self-Focus articles, but a lot were about MLC and Standing Actions—I wrote the first draft of the stages and the Progress articles in 2006 and 2007.
A lot of people were grateful for the information. But some—usually those who had been either my peers or the OldTimers criticized me because I was focusing too much on Sweetheart, and MLC.
So I am always a bit cautious when advising people regarding the direction of their focus. I found the topic interesting personally, but others did not see it that way; to many I was just making an excuse for my focus.

No, when our spouses post themselves and other person, and exchange public love declarations in FB they are not being private at all. They even use their real names and everything. They are also not being private when they go around town together, when they bring other person to meet family and friends or when they go and meet other person family and friends.

Just for the record, I don't consider this an acceptable reason to post their private correspondence.

It’s not. Since when does someone else’s sins erase the same actions in you. To say they are doing it so you can…really? With that reasoning why aren’t you out there doing someone else like your spouse? Adultery too strong for you, well instead join the Bungeeless Bridge Jumpers Association; if one jumps they all jump.
There is a difference between what may be legal and what may be right, appropriate or ethical.

When Sweetheart left the alieantor for the first time he brought her letters and cards with him. She immediately faked a pregnancy and continued to the cards and letters through Septmeber 2005. I have the a stack of cards and a stack of letters and I’ve read them all. Since that time I have considered typing them up for publication—with commentary to highlight emotional balckmail, Borderline traits, affair down dymanics… I have not done it yet for many of the reasons given regarding privacy here. But it still remains something I may do someday. My purpose would not be to be salacious—that was not AnneJ’s purpose either. It would be to give a more detached or even clinical perspective. I think that this sort of information can be helpful. I also think it can cause overfocus—depending on the presentation and the individual writing and reading it.

So I could publish it with excellent commentary and for some it would enable unhealthy focus on the MLCer, the alienator, the affair or MLC in general. But it would help some—perhaps many more than it would enable toward unhealthy focus.

The alienator named the fake baby and wrote an entire letter motivated to entice him back to her using the baby as the attraction as well as duty. The letters began less than a week after their relationship went physical and she was telling him how scared she was when he was away, that she wanted to hold onto him until she died—that was in the first 4 lines.

I just skimmed the letters again—it had been a few years. To a healthy person they look scary. They are filled with burning, this is more than love, our baby, you are almost my husband, breaking heart, I am hanging on…and a stock from your wife card on his birthday as well as a card within the first month that was a baby card where she told him she wanted to give him a baby. To me they are the clear ravings of desperation, but to someone in MLC who lacks self-esteem these are golden words—someone wants them, loves them, will do anything for them; that produces an attractive force.

But out culture eats this stuff up.

And tell me now,
How do I live without you?
I want to know,
How do I breathe without you?
If you ever go,
How do I ever, ever survive,
How do I, how do I, oh, how do I live?

That song is sick. And what about the Stalker’s Anthem I’ll Be Watching You...?

I received the letters soon after they were written—October 2005. I read them at that time and filed them away and received a final letter written in February 2006 when he returned home again in Spring 2006. I did not get them by snooping and though I don’t think he really knew what was going on, I told Sweetheart I had them and that I would be keeping them—or destroying them if I chose…but they were mine to keep or destroy. He probably heard me, but failed to process it and forgot an hour later, but I’ve mentioned them since. But another reason I have not typed them up for articles is that I am concerned it would bother him—so much so that I’m afraid to ask him! I don’t think it’s the privacy that would bother him, but the embarassment and he may feel I was invading her privacy and that it would be mean.

So I don’t have a problem with publishing correspondence specifically. But it needs to be without sensationalism—so any follow-up discussion needs strong guidance since sensationalism often comes from the comments rather than the original content. The person posting should not be a newbie and the letters should not have been discovered by snooping. This sort of stuff causes newbies to cycle. AnneJ is at a place where she can handle it. And anyone who posts such correspondences needs to think fist about what they want; are you Standing? If so, will this harm your Stand…what will your MLCer think in a few years after he has returned home and discovers it…he may never discover it, but if this is something that would upset him because it would be shameful or embarrassing, consider what is more important: your Stand or providing the information?

Now in saying that, I am neither promoting, encouraging or discouraging this thread or others in this topic. I just want each of you to be aware of the sensitivity and risk of focus certain topics have. Does this topic promote the Unconditionals? Can it with guidance? If the topic steers off course and becomes demeaning, insulting and demonizes anyone—MLCers, alienators or anyone else it becomes inappropriate.

Laughing at someone as though you might find your teenager amusing is one thing, but you are probably laughing with nostalgia at how you were back then, laughing scornfully is a form of demeaning and there is a fine line.

[ziggee]

Rollercoasterider

Wow a lot of thought went into that post.  Thank you so very much...

Me.

[StandandDeliver]

You are right RCR, I should have clarified what I meant by "holier than thou" because it was a response to the following comment to AnneJ that I personally felt was very pejorative and judgemental,

This thread is just so WRONG!

I dont believe that reading all of this stuff will help anyone...even if it is claimed to be amusing...it is SICK!?

But I suppose that stating that this is “holier than thou" position could be seen as equally unfair and judgemental and I am sorry.

 What I really meant to indicate is my belief that just because  a topic makes a person uncomfortable it  does not automatically mean that is wrong or sick. I have gone on to indicate why I believe that the idea of a blanket "right" to privacy is a thorny one, so I won't go into it again...

[Rollercoasterider]

You are right RCR, I should have clarified what I meant by "holier than thou" because it was a response to the following comment to AnneJ that I personally felt was very pejorative and judgemental,

This thread is just so WRONG!
I dont believe that reading all of this stuff will help anyone...even if it is claimed to be amusing...it is SICK!?

But I suppose that stating that this is “holier than thou" position could be seen as equally unfair and judgemental and I am sorry.
What I really meant to indicate is my belief that just because  a topic makes a person uncomfortable it  does not automatically mean that is wrong or sick. I have gone on to indicate why I believe that the idea of a blanket "right" to privacy is a thorny one, so I won't go into it again...

Thank you.
That was the comment I thought you must have been referring, but since there was no religious refence in it I thought maybe there was another comment I had missed on my review.
The comment was an opinion and the statement that the thread is WRONG may seem like a judgment, but--at least to me--for something to be a judgment it needs to be against the people--you are bad people because of what you are saying in this thread. And that's not what she was saying at all. She targeted the topic and made no religious references. I did find your holier than though statement judgmental because it targeted the poster specifically.