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Poll

How many of your MLCers are on antidepressants/SSRI medication

Yes started after MLC
9 (20%)
Yes started before MLC
10 (22.2%)
Do not know
4 (8.9%)
No
22 (48.9%)

Total Members Voted: 45

Author Topic: Discussion Antidepressants How many of your MLCers are on Anti depressants/SSRI medication?

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The theory behind the problem. Please note that my research has also been taken from Dr Peter Breggin, Professor David Healey, Professor Helen Fisher, Dr Ann Blake Tracey, Professor Lardi, Robert Whittaker and many more esteemed professionals. Also note that clinical trials of these drugs last only 12 weeks for approval. When you CT or taper the brain has to regrow neuro Transmitters that the brain has closed down to try to balance the hormone imbalance caused by these drugs. The whole serotonin issue of depression has virtually been debunked. Everyone is different and it is the consistency of hormones that make a person who they are. I could write about this for hours but will leave you with this for now. I am not saying our spouses are not having MLC I am saying that it is the meds they may initiate the feeling of wasted life and no feelings toward the spouse. Still the same problem to deal with but if they stay off the meds it may facilitate recovery. Maybe this is the difference between returning and not. If the MLCer stays on the drug then they can not progress as they are stuck in a rut of numbness. Ever thought how meds have helped the LBS deal with it. By numbing emotions so we do not care. Can you see how this may drive some of our spouses behaviours? This is not my article by the way.

Why they walk away   

Over the past few years I have heard numerous stories about relationships abandoned while someone was either on an SSRI / SNRI or during withdrawal. I have thought about this untold hours and I’m going to try sharing those thoughts here.

I want to be very clear that this is not directed at anyone and I am in no way being judgmental.
   
The Beginning
It all starts innocently enough when someone has gone to the Dr for an ailment, any ailment but for this exercise we’ll say anxiety. They get a prescription for one of the medications known as SSRI’s or SNRI’s which are a type of antidepressant. They get the usual blather about how safe they are and how effective they are along with a stern warning about how they can cause dry mouth, nausea and a feeling of sleepiness. These drugs include Paxil, Prozac. Lexapro. Celexa, Zoloft, Effexor and Cymbalta.

The unsuspecting victim gets the prescription filled and because they were reassured about the safety from the Dr they don’t purchase a microscope to read the insert that comes with the medication.

They begin taking the medication and before long they have changed but it’s a very slow change. Changes that are barely noticeable in the beginning, starting with an anger outburst or an out of character comment.

When frontal lobe syndrome occurs symptoms such as Apathy, indifference, loss of initiative, becoming indifferent toward work performance, exhibiting impulsive and disinhibited behavior, or developing poor concentration and forgetful behavior (Hoehn-Saric et al. 1991). may be present.

The inability to feel good or satisfied may be missing due to a reduced dopamine level. The activities they once enjoyed no longer light their fire. You see for every incremental increase in serotonin levels there is a corresponding decrease in the level of the neurotransmitter Dopamine that allows us to feel reward or satisfaction. The big sale or other achievement won’t feel right, it won’t be enough. The cuddle at night may become meaningless.

Some will become manic. Mania includes but may not be limited to such things as

•   increased energy, decreased sleep
•   overly irritable
•   fast emotional changes
•   inflated self-esteem
•   increased sexual drive
•   overspending
•   poor judgment

The retrospective study I read says that slightly less than 9% will experience mania as a side effect of these drugs. A report on Fox News today said there are 30 million people in the US on these drugs at any one time and that 5% are manic or psychotic. Psychotic just means they have lost touch with reality. Perceived feelings begin to emerge which often times include blaming their significant other for everything bad that has ever happened or for things that never happened. The phone call just to see how they’re doing that was once viewed as sweet or considerate is now viewed as “checking up on me”

With that being the case and with more than half being women or girls it doesn’t take much reasoning to figure out what happens when they experience an increased sex drive, become disinhibited and exercise poor judgment. I use women here as the example merely because it’s much easier for them to act out sexually than it is for men. That however in no way precludes men from engaging in this type behavior for the exact same reasons.

It has also been reported in trial data that some people will actively pursue such things as pornography when they never were inclined to do so before. These are all things that may be outside “their normal behavior” Keep that simple phrase in mind “their normal behavior” it’s the key to understanding what has happened or is happening now.

Some will say at this point that sex had nothing to do with MY decision. The sexual scenario was just an example. The out of character behavior can and does come in virtually any form including but in no way limited to excessive spending, gambling, vivid violent dreams directed towards the loved one that create a fear of what you might do and the list goes on.

Soon with the help of the drug they begin to rationalize what they’ve done. Believing these new activities feelings and fears are really who they are and what they want they simply walk away from their previous life to pursue the perceived utopian existence they have discovered under the numbing mind altering influence of their medication.

Having rationalized they begin to feel threatened. Their secrets aren’t safe, so now what? The hard wired survival mechanism known as fight or flight kicks in.

Fight or flight
What is the "fight or flight response?"
This fundamental physiologic response forms the foundation of modern day stress medicine. The "fight or flight response" is our body's primitive, automatic, inborn response that prepares the body to "fight" or "flee" from perceived attack, harm or threat to our survival.
What happens to us when we are under excessive stress?
When we experience excessive stress—whether from internal worry or external circumstance—a bodily reaction is triggered, called the "fight or flight" response. Originally discovered by the great Harvard physiologist Walter Cannon, this response is hard-wired into our brains and represents a genetic wisdom designed to protect us from bodily harm. This response actually corresponds to an area of our brain called the hypothalamus, which—when stimulated—initiates a sequence of nerve cell firing and chemical release that prepares our body for running or fighting.
What are the signs that our fight or flight response has been stimulated (activated)?
When our fight or flight response is activated, sequences of nerve cell firing occur and chemicals like adrenaline, noradrenaline and cortisol are released into our bloodstream. These patterns of nerve cell firing and chemical release cause our body to undergo a series of very dramatic changes. Our respiratory rate increases. Blood is shunted away from our digestive tract and directed into our muscles and limbs, which require extra energy and fuel for running and fighting. Our pupils dilate. Our awareness intensifies. Our sight sharpens. Our impulses quicken. Our perception of pain diminishes. Our immune system mobilizes with increased activation. We become prepared—physically and psychologically—for fight or flight. We scan and search our environment, "looking for the enemy."
When our fight or flight system is activated, we tend to perceive everything in our environment as a possible threat to our survival. By its very nature, the fight or flight system bypasses our rational mind—where our more well thought out beliefs exist—and moves us into "attack" mode. This state of alert causes us to perceive almost everything in our world as a possible threat to our survival. As such, we tend to see everyone and everything as a possible enemy. Like airport security during a terrorist threat, we are on the look out for every possible danger. We may overreact to the slightest comment. Our fear is exaggerated. Our thinking is distorted. We see everything through the filter of possible danger. We narrow our focus to those things that can harm us. Fear becomes the lens through which we see the world.
We can begin to see how it is almost impossible to cultivate positive attitudes and beliefs when we are stuck in survival mode. Our heart is not open. Our rational mind is disengaged. Our consciousness is focused on fear, not love. Making clear choices and recognizing the consequences of those choices is unfeasible. We are focused on short-term survival, not the long-term consequences of our beliefs and choices. When we are overwhelmed with excessive stress, our life becomes a series of short-term emergencies. We lose the ability to relax and enjoy the moment.

Over time many medicated partners will file for divorce. Not realizing the thing that changed was the delicate balance in their brain caused by the drug. Believing with all their heart and soul that they are in control of their feelings and finally doing what they want in their life.

By now you may be thinking if all this is true, then why are they seemingly so happy and content with the new life. The answer to that is simple. It’s because it’s new and never before experienced and because of that it can elicit a Dopamine response when the old ways couldn’t. Not because it’s better, simply because it’s new.

Let’s fast forward just a bit. Now we’ve gotten to this point the excitement of the new life and in some cases the new partner begins to wear off. The shine tarnishes and the spark cools. The drugs are now out of their system and they’ve done some healing and the decisions they made and their current situation don’t make as much sense as they once did. Maybe some feelings that were believed to be gone are beginning to sneak back into the picture.

While just going back and trying to work things out might be the obvious step it isn’t that easy. Even if the person now realizes it was the drugs and most won’t at this point the situation is very complex. Now you have someone that walked away from the people they loved and who loved them but they question why did I leave, why did I think those things are they really how I feel? How do I know that what I feel now is real?

If that isn’t enough there are also feelings of shame, embarrassment, wondering how anyone could forgive what happened. Financial and legal problems health concerns and the list could go on.

If the person returns it will only be after they have completed the necessary journey. For some this may only take a few days and it’s done. For others the journey will be longer with twists and turns that may include divorce and even getting married to someone else. The journey like the little pills that set the whole thing in motion is unpredictable and unique to each individual.

How does a couple overcome all of this?

First both people have to understand it was the drug that caused the behaviors and actions.

For the jilted partner this is simply not the time to let macho or feminist attitudes control your thinking. This is the time to remember your wedding vows. For better or for worse for richer or poorer in sickness and in health. If you were never married but made a commitment, if you really loved the person, the same applies.

How much should you be required to give or how long do you hang on to the hope that the love of your life will return?  In my mind the answer is simple, how long would you want them to wait if the situation were reversed? They deserve at least that much time.

Now for those that walked away. Please don’t let pride stand in the way of what could be the best thing to ever happen to you. Consider how much the other person must love you to have fought for your return. Please don’t pass up the chance to be rejoined and happy again. The chance to see how the things you had dreamed of turn out. The chance to dream new dreams together and for life to be better than it has ever been before. I would beg of you to make the contact. Have no doubt that those who loved you before will love you again. By the time it’s gone this far the outcome may be up to you, Please ask. In many cases there will be no apologies expected no details to relive. In many cases a phone call or email that simply says something like I miss you ad want to come home will be more than enough. 
         
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My H's story is very similar to OJ's.  He was going through something in 2009 or longer, but started first with Seroquel XR after a bipolar diagnosis by the general practitioner (I know) in Jan 2010, within a month I think was then transferred to a psychiatrist and separate therapist who downgraded to generalized anxiety (H was scared of having a more serious illness - I think he lied to get it downgraded) and was put on I believe Celexa or something else I'm forgetting - but definitely did the Celexa for awhile and actually did well on it (other than digestive issues).  Because of the issues he was switched to Lexapro, went off of it cold turkey within a month, all hell broke loose and life has never been the same, yadda yadda.  It wasn't the cause, but I spoke with a PTSD specializing psychologist (happens to be a friend's mother) who believes the drugs, given at a time when he was not manic, threw him into mania.  I suspect the FOO on the father's side has a B6 deficiency due to a lot of consistent chronic issues that lead back to that.  If that's true, he naturally is not creating enough serotonin, and that is contributing to the depression and Monster.  I also think there's a strong link to a dissociative fugue state, but I also think there's merit in looking at it psychologically through the Erikson/Conway/Jung MLC viewpoint.  Maybe low T too?  Can we just call it a hot mess?   ::) ;D

But I answered "I don't know" because I don't since he is off in la la land.  I do know he did better when just on B-complex, St. John's Wort, and briefly spring of 2012 when I talked him into trying L-Tyrosine.

You should not give SSRI's to bipolar sufferers without a MOOD STABILIZER. This is common knowledge. In fact many of the professors believe SSRI medication causes bipolar symptoms hence the explosion in Bipolar diagnosis since 1989 when these drugs were introduced. It is known that the original Prozac trials were conducted with tranquilizers to avoid mania but this was not revealed to the FDA .

St Johns wort can cause slight mania if mixed with alcohol and other drugs.

My W was on Celexa for anxiety for nearly three years following her mothers death. She was fine apart from stomach issues (90% of serotonin is in the digestive tract) until they upped them to 30mg to deal with her PMS. Her mania and her MLC started one month later. Can you see why I am so interested in the link. I have discovered many spouses in the same position following AD treatment and particularly updoses and withdrawal. It just sends the chemical soup in the brain into a frenzy and it is this chemical soup that makes us love and behave morally. I am telling all of you whose spouses have been involved with this medication that they have something to do with this. It is just to much of a coincidence and it fits our sitches.

I am not saying the MLC is not valid I am saying that the medications conduct all the changes in the brain to start the ball rolling. in fact they may duplicate the exact brain changes that someone feels in a natural MLC.

Interestingly they also produce the altered memory Syndrome. The brain has to create new memories to justify the chemical thoughts that have been forced. I believe Roseanne Barr is an example of this. She blamed her parents for abuse but when off her Prozac she rescinded the accusations and admitted the meds had created false memories. Sound familiar?? ;)             
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Braincell

Do you believe that it just SSRIs that are not good?

What is your opinion of an alternative Anti Depressant such as LOFEPRAMINE?

Thx
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1968 H and Me born
1992 Married
Ds born 2000 and 2006
May 2013 H left us
H continually stated that there is no OW
January 2014 H filed for Divorce
January 2014 H alludes & infers that there IS an OW
April 2014 H issues DECREE NISI
May 2014 H makes OW public
H continually states that OW R began December 2013
H asked for over a year to come home but asked in monster mode and I refused.
August 2016 H issues DECREE ABSOLUTE

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Have you visited this link yet?  It was the first one I found, months before this forum.  http://www.topix.com/forum/drug/effexor/TQ4I2UR28DFD3N759

Don't let the link title fool you - more is discussed there than just Effexor.

MLC is like the flu - the virus can be picked up from lots of different sources, but the illness is pretty much the same (though some are back on their feet in a few days without infecting the whole house, and others get pneumonia).  For some of us, you can't take these medications out of the equation, because they are in the very least a contributing factor.  Glad to see you posting here!
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k
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Hi Braincell
Great discussion.

Quote
CT withdrawal will make someone turn manic and even the manufacturer of the drug advises against this.

Could you clarify what CT is?  I presume some sort of meds.  Different countries can have different names for these things.

Quote
There is no way of measuring serotonin in a living brain for a start. Also raising serotonin lowers dopamine which is the love hormone which bonds ccouples together. This happens over time as the brain tries to balance the imbalance caused by the nerds

Just wondering if you can expand on this a bit more - if there is no way of measuring serotonin, (and serotonin theory is being debunked by some researchers - I have read this too), how do they know that they are raising serotonin levels with the meds?

My H definitely had all of these symptoms BEFORE I convinced him to try St Johns Wort.  (The emotional shutdown, the detachment, the wanting to run away, the high anxiety, episodes of mania, disinhibition, rage, reduced cognitive abilities).  He kept saying there was nothing wrong with him and that he wouldn't be taking medication (huh?).
I eventually convinced him to try taking St Johns Wort.  He took it for a couple of weeks and then refused, saying they were 'too strong'.  It wasn't until later, that I learnt about the effect on the mania and the need for mood stabilisers. 

From my research - antidepressants do not help a MLC, because of the dissociation and identity disorder that runs alongside it, but I know that you are coming at this from a different angle - and was this triggered by the meds for your wife.
This time of life seems to be such a hot mess as Ready2 said - there seems to be so many puzzle pieces and breaking point seems to be whatever the last straw was in the mix.



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« Last Edit: December 17, 2013, 12:04:29 PM by kikki »

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Braincell

Do you believe that it just SSRIs that are not good?

What is your opinion of an alternative Anti Depressant such as LOFEPRAMINE?

Thx

Hi Jos

Lofepramine is a tryclicic antidepressant which works on the same principle but is older. It still keeps serotonin in the synapses for longer but in a different way. Research has shown this results in decreased seotonin in the long term as the brain closes down neurotransmitters in an attempt to reverse the effect of the drug. Different people will have different reactions and timescales hence the change and combinations of medicines that happen so often. It really is hit and miss.

You can get mania from Lofepramine and I would say it can cause the same effects as SSRI,s regarding dopamine down regulation.

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HI Kiki

CT Refers to cold turkey. You must taper very slowly off these as the brain needs to heal its neurotransmitters whilst the depleted NT,s remaining start to reabsorb serotinin as intented. This leads to depleted serotonin within the synapses. It is the constant changing of hormone levels that cause the mood and emotional problems rather than high or low serotonin.

The proof is right in front of us. There is a way to estimate serotonin increase by measuring the hormone level in the gut. As these hormones do not cross the blood brain barrier this is no real indication of hormone levels in the brain. They have of course tested in the lab using rats and monkeys. It is possible to cut open their live brain of course!

There was talk of a method being developed using a scan of some type but it had only been used on animals up to 2012 and i have seen no newer articles regarding this.

I ask myself how did they know my wifes level of serotonin when they prescribed the meds. She was just upset over her mother dying. They performed no tests and it is just a theory that low seratonin causes depression any how. With no starting rate how can they determine someone needs higher levels anyhow?

The drugs work on the sane principle as MDMA. They know MDMA fllods the brain with seratonin and makes people euphoric. They also know it causes brain damage long term. My W has been fed a watered down ecstacy pill for over three years. That has got to effect mood/decision making and bonding in my opinion!!
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k
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Ah cold turkey - thanks for explaining. Yes absolutely, that is a very dangerous thing to do.

That's really interesting. I haven't heard about the measuring the hormonal level in the gut.  Do you know which hormone/s they measure?  If it different for men vs women?

How do these hormones relate to the serotonin level?  Sorry for the million and one questions - keen to know.

The prescribing of drugs of many kinds is such a hit and miss process.  Just about any article on antidepressants says that they really do not understand exactly how they work. And they keep it very quiet that it only seems to help some people.  In my country (NZ) they are not as widely prescribed as they are in the US, and if so, they seem keen to get people off them reasonably quickly if possible (3-6mths)

Without a doubt, anyone that I know that has been on these meds says that they came off them because they were alarmed at the numbing of their emotions.
This seems to be the difference with people in crisis - whatever it is that they are doing, they just seem to carry on and find people to support and back up their way of thinking.



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Hi Kiki

They measure seratonin in the gut as 90% of the seratonin is in the gut. This is the reason why users get gastro issues. They then must just assume that the overal level must have rose. I think that they must use a scale possibly devised from animal research i would presume. Lets remember that no tests are carried out before they throw these drugs at people.

They really just get you mildly high which is fine for two months whilst going through bad times but not good after three years of constant drip feeding to the most complex part of your being. I mean its essentially your soul.....it controls who you are. It gets damaged and changed and the only improvements come with recovery after a while off the drugs.

Regarding the company they keep, most manic spouses affair down to other nut jobs or alcoholics etc. They attract each other like two drunks in a park and our mental well being just seems to push them away.
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k
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Quote
They measure seratonin in the gut as 90% of the seratonin is in the gut. This is the reason why users get gastro issues. They then must just assume that the overal level must have rose. I think that they must use a scale possibly devised from animal research i would presume. Lets remember that no tests are carried out before they throw these drugs at people.

Oh wow - I had no idea that that was the measure that they used.  Absolutely no way of knowing how much is actually absorbed and usable by the brain, as you say.

You are probably familiar with this psychiatrist - he has spent the past 20 years using brain tomography - he was originally vilified for it, but it seems to be becoming standard procedure.
As he points out - psychiatrists are the last medical specialists to take a 'best guess' without using actual diagnostic tools.
http://www.amenclinics.com/dr-amen/latest-news/item/do-antidepressants-do-more-harm-than-good


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