[WarriorPriestess]

So right Xyzcf.  We all have so much we can learn from each other, from our spouses, from ourselves.  I think that if we truly walk the path that is presented to us, we do become experts.  Not necessarily of MLC as a whole, but in our personal experience with it.  And when it comes down to it, even the "experts" won't necessarily have more insight into our personal situations, but they can certainly provide guideposts and plenty of information along the way.

[Dontgiveup]

I have used the word "expert" in a few posts I have written.  I may refrain from further use of it because I am not interested in getting caught up on it.  A word that would better fit what RCR provided for me is "credibility".  Like many LBS, because of the cycling of my MLCer, there were times after bomb drop that I questioned whether it was truly MLC.

My counselor was the first to use the term MLC almost immediately after bomb drop.  Then I read Conway's book "Women in MLC".  I then found a couple of different websites and ultimately settled on this one, partially due to my desire for a Christian persective.  I do read the archives on the Midlife Dimensions website from time to time, but I have never posted there.

I remember the day the credibility of the articles on this website shot through the roof for me.  It was about five months after bomb drop.  My wife had filed....and then continuously cycled after filing.  One day she was not feeling well and did not go to work.  She called me over to tell me she was going to finalize the divorce.  Basically the last thing she said to me was that I did not fight hard enough for her.  I was puzzled because in the same conversation, she thanked me for many of the things I had done for her over the past few weeks and the discussions we had.

I was later reading RCR's article on Hoovering.  Here's the part that I couldn't believe I was reading.  As I told a couple of the other LBS that I know, it was like RCR had overheard the conversation.

"When he was feeling guilty, he told me I didn't fight hard enough for him.
 
That is classic hoovering. He tried to give you his guilt and make you feel at fault when he did not want to come home. This gives you a glimmer of hope that if you fight for him he may come home, thereby sucking you back into your former pursuit."


I had also read the article on Pursuit and Distance.  I was not yet sold at the time, because I thought pursuing was the right thing to do.  After my amazement at the information on Hoovering, I also decided at that time I would no longer pursue.  I was going to let her have her crisis and allow her to control contact.  I have stuck to that since that time.

The symptoms below from RCR also added to the credibility.  My MLCer's Urge to Abandon was sudden and strong, and I was able to put a check by everything on this list.....either through a behavior or something that was said.

•Depression—Covert & Overt
•The Urge to Abandon
•Infidelity
•Blaming or Projecting (Denial of Responsibility)
•Personality Changes or Mood Swings

RCR is also the first author who informed me of MLC causation being from a lack of emotional development, childhood issues or a similar phrase.....although Conway does call MLC the "second adolescence".

So I will use the term credibility.

And yes, I do know the articles pretty well.  I think it's hard not to know them when they have so accurately described what my MLCer has said and done over a two year period.....I think others have found the same thing to be true.

I appreciate the amount of time, effort and research RCR has put into this.  It has made a difference for me, and has allowed me to make a difference in the lives of others.  For that, I am humbly grateful.

[StillStanding]

I know that when people first arrive here they are in shock from their bomb drops, and asking lots questions is normal (and a good thing!) but there is a wealth of information on this site alone, between RCR's blog posts and articles and the links in the sticky posts.

This isn't like high school where we can crib off of each other's notes or get someone to do our homework for us. We can provide support to each other for those rough times and BDs, and we can give advice (many of us give great advice!), but there's no better way we can help ourselves than by reading and learning the material.

[OldPilot]

Well I think that RCR has really hit the nail on the head with this thread and I applaud her efforts.
I just re-read her post and could not agree more with how she sizes up the "opposing camps"
on the forum.

I feel privileged to be considered in the group of this discussion and I must think about which "camp"
I am a member of.
I think RCR's point is that we must be in both camps, and not one or the other is right or wrong.

We are all experts on our own marriage and must take what we learn and apply it to our sich.

I agree that we are all FIXERS and CONTROLLERS, sometimes this comes out in what we post.
However I have seen a tremendous amount of love and caring here.

I think the hardest thing for me is looking at myself and trying to recognize what are the REAL things
that I need to FIX about myself and really try to work on.

I know that it is NOT what my MLC'er is spouting about, but that is not to say that I did not
contribute to the downfall of my marriage.
This stuff is VERY hard and nothing is as simple or easy as it sounds.

I look forward to reading what everyone else has to say on this subject.

[limitless]

OP,
I have to say that you hit something in me when you stated that we need to be in both camps.

That's exactly it, isn't it?  One of those "secrets to the universe" type of things - that is really so simple, yet so difficult to do.

It's all about moderation?  Not allowing yourself to be too far left or too far right.  Both are extremes - and, with each situation we find ourselves in life (some not having ANYTHING to do with MLC) - there are different strategies we can employ.  Sometimes, Tough Love is needed....other times...Unconditional Love.  Actually, isn't Tough Love part of Unconditional Love?  Loving someone enough to tell them what they need to hear - instead of what they want to hear.  Loving someone enough to let them go...and allow them to make their own decision - right or wrong.  And, who are we to decide what is right or wrong for them?

This is really a good discussion.

Limitless

[ece711]

In an era where everything is labeled, we as human beings tend to feel that we could fix things ourselves just because we have labeled them and started accepting these experiences as "Symptoms", despite numerous proof that in the end "Nothing is Certain (except aging, death and Taxes)". "Tough Love" or "Unconditional" approach will not guarantee anything...  "Detachment" is probably the most important weapon we have for ourselves. 

Think about this:  What really makes it difficult to detach?  Is it because we were provided with the "stages of MLC", most of us want to know what our MLCers are doing right now to find out what stage they are in?  Whatever happened to 2x4's when someone seem forget to detach?

[stayed]

It's all about moderation?  Not allowing yourself to be too far left or too far right.  Both are extremes - and, with each situation we find ourselves in life (some not having ANYTHING to do with MLC) - there are different strategies we can employ.  Sometimes, Tough Love is needed....other times...Unconditional Love.  Actually, isn't Tough Love part of Unconditional Love?  Loving someone enough to tell them what they need to hear - instead of what they want to hear.  Loving someone enough to let them go...and allow them to make their own decision - right or wrong.  And, who are we to decide what is right or wrong for them?

This pretty much sums it up! 

hugs Stayed

[LisaLives]

I think the hardest thing for me is looking at myself and trying to recognize what are the REAL things
that I need to FIX about myself and really try to work on.

I know that it is NOT what my MLC'er is spouting about, but that is not to say that I did not
contribute to the downfall of my marriage.
This stuff is VERY hard and nothing is as simple or easy as it sounds.

I look forward to reading what everyone else has to say on this subject.

This might be a mini-hijack because it has nothing really to do with this thread, but I totally beg to differ on this.  And I seldom comment anymore because I know I am in a different place, but I feel very strongly that this belief can be severely detrimental to fragile newbies, or to anyone.  Regardless of how imperfect any of us are, and I mean that, we are all worthy of love, compassion and grace.  So, I find it difficult when people tell newbies that they should use this time to work on themselves.  I think as opposed to WORKING on themselves, I think most people here need to REDISCOVER LOVE for themselves, and that involves embracing our imperfections.     

I still need to lose ten pounds, I eat poorly, I am impatient, sometimes judgmental, I suffer from low self-esteem and I am very insecure about my social self.  I can come across as a know-it-all, and I love a good debate so much, I can scare and intimidate people.  I am sarcastic, blunt, and honest to a fault.  However, I am also loyal to a fault, I care deeply about people, try my best to live by high moral and ethical standards and truly do no harm.  I am a great cook, a good friend, pretty darn smart and giving of my self and my time.  There will ALWAYS be stuff I can work on, and I have many assests, but none of that mattered in the downfall of my marriage. 

Marriage is a partnership--a choice and a contract.  No one is perfect, we all have flaws and people do change.  So, like any relationship, marriage is a constant negotiation.  A marriage fails when one or both people stop negotiating.  I have a lot of things that I need to improve about myself, but I don't think any of them contributed to the downfall of my marriage.  My perfectionism and OCD tendencies bother me and my kids but he actually liked that about me and when I started to relax a little more that bothered him, but it was so much better for the rest of us.  There is a popular notion in organizational improvement that when there is something wrong in an organization, it is not the PEOPLE, but the PROCESS.  If something needed to be fixed in a marriage, it was not the people, but the DYNAMIC--and you can't fix that alone.  I know a LOT of very broken and damaged people who live in very successful marriages.   

And I think that telling people to work on themselves causes them to focus on the WAS and the OP too much.  In order to FIX something you have to know what was wrong.  But the other key thing people always say here is that it is not about you.  So you see the contradiction?  And it constantly reinforces the notion that we need FIXING.  I am a far healthier person than the 24-year-old my H married, and I resent any hint that the failure of my marriage means that I need fixing.  Not that I don't need fixing, but I was not the one who walked away.       

I do believe that there can be amicable divorces--which is not a failure but an agreement to dissolve that partnership.  When both people have tried to negotiate and decide, with love, that they no longer can make it work, then I do believe there can be a "good divorce."  But that is not the case in most situations here.  In legal contracts, there are generally exit provisions--and if either party considers an exit, there is generally a notification and an opportunity to cure--after which, the contract can be terminated.  When one party leaves without following the rules, that is breach and it is not the fault of the party being breached. 

Anyway, I know I am in the minority on a lot of things here, but I think no matter which camp you fall in, it is very hard to "stand" and not focus too much on the WAS and the OP, and what YOU did wrong, when in reality, what most people here really need to do is pick up the pieces of their beautiful broken selves and get back to the business of living and enjoying EVERYTHING they do have, which is considerable since in the objective scheme of things, they lost ONE thing.  And it is vital to separate out our selves and our assets from our enmeshed and co-dependent lives.  That means realizing that you may be losing money, but you are gaining independence, and so it goes for EVERY single thing we lose in this process.  When I read the threads where people get so angry and "stuck" it is all because they are focusing on the person who walked away and the OP, and not truly living their best lives now. 

I know this is my lonely soap box, and I will get off it now, but this is truly NOT about us.  Change if you must, but that is no guarantee you will get your spouse back, or have a successful R.  So the best thing to do is just LOVE.  Love yourself for who you are, your family and friends for being there and all the beauty around you in whatever form it comes as long as you can.  We all know life can change on a dime, so make every day worth it--you are all worthy of love and acceptance just the way you are!  Love and light, Lisa

[NewBeginnings]

LisaLives ~ Thank you for posting that.  I totally agree with you.  I keep reading to work on myself, change ect. and I know my
marriage did NOT fall apart because of me.  My H is having a MLC and I feel it is a severe one at that.  I also read that his crisis is not about me and all about him.  I too have found what I read to be very contradicting.   I am glad to know that I am not the only one who feels this way. 

I also know that when he blames me for things, they are the most rediculous thing I have ever heard.  They aren't even reasons that one would abandon his family over, like one of his reasons was we didn't like the same TV or radio stations.     I know I am a very kind, warm hearted and giving person.  I am also very trust worthy and out going.  The reasons my H has given are lies that he has made up to jusitfy what he has done to his family.  I am not saying I am perfect as no one is.  But my H and my family were my life and I did everything for him.  His reasons for leaving, well even if they were true, it's nothing I could change about myself. 

NB

[BonBon]

Very interesting to read RCR. 

Since I am not an expert on anything in this world, I might be more likely to apply expert status to you, Stayed, OP, DGU, HB...and a few others.  Regardless of where any of you are in the MLC situation, you all seem to just know your stuff and that could be either the writings of Conway, others, each other...whatever.  But with that said, experts don't and can't have the answer to everyone, all the time, 100% accurately.

I liken it to going to a doctor.  They have far more information and education and experience than their patient but what it still comes down to is trial and error more often than not.  Though people expect to be cured/fixed immediately, that rarely happens.  You try one medication and if it doesn't work, you try the next.  You take into account the patient's history and needs but ultimately, the patient will heal when the patient will heal and the patient more often than not, must be pro-active in their healing as well.  To assume you can just show up at the doctor and get fixed is unreasonable in every circumstance.

I try to impart the wisdome I have gained in the last few years as a way of paying it forward.  But I have a long way to go and much to learn and so I look to all of you for guidance.  I don't expect any of you to fix me, my spouse or my situation.  Instead, I expect myself to be adult enough to realize that I'm at a salad bar of ideas and advice and I as an adult need to decide what goes into my salad and what I may leave for next time or disregard all together.  If I can't do that, I have no business being in an adult relationship frankly.

I don't think the two camps are all that different.  I don't see anyone here who regularly advises acting as the doormat.  Nor do I see the tough love proponents as being overly strident.  I think if they were, they probably would not be standing or still married.  I think it is a healthy balance quite frankly and I'm glad to hear all the opinions. 

Sometimes I need to read of those who stand for so long...it reminds me of my deep love for my H.  And sometimes I need a kick in the pants and someone to tell be to buck up and stand up for myself. 

All I can say is I owe you all a huge debt of gratitude.  You give and give and give.  You re-live painful times or you bring the focus back to your current pain.  You ask nothing in return.  You provide a wealth of researched and anecdotal information.  You welcome every person into the group.  I see you all as wise and selfless and incredibly decent, humane people.  "Experts" or not doesn't really matter....