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Author Topic: MLC Monster Biochemistry, neurotransmitters and brain research

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MLC Monster Biochemistry, neurotransmitters and brain research
OP: November 09, 2011, 10:45:35 AM
I know this is not about MLC but while watching I found it very interesting and just wanted to share it with my forum friends.  Hope you find it as interesting as what I did.

http://www.ted.com/talks/iain_mcgilchrist_the_divided_brain.html#.TqnCERHR4e0.facebook
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Re: OFF TOPIC - Interesting talk regarding the Brain
#1: November 09, 2011, 11:02:45 AM
Here is another video I would like to share, again not MLC but I would like to share because it relates to belief, which I can see is very strong on this forum.  Our belief drives us to do what we do.  My hope in this post is to evoke thinking and questioning which for me has been a big part of my journey.

http://www.ted.com/talks/lang/eng/rick_warren_on_a_life_of_purpose.html
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Re: OFF TOPIC - Interesting talk regarding the Brain
#2: November 09, 2011, 12:05:26 PM
Thanks for sharing Dandy - I love learning more about this fascinating organ.
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Re: OFF TOPIC - Interesting talk regarding the Brain
#3: November 09, 2011, 12:08:28 PM
That was interesting, Dandy. I really enjoyed the animation, too!
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Re: OFF TOPIC - Interesting talk regarding the Brain
#4: November 09, 2011, 12:10:06 PM
glad you enjoyed Kikki..........me too!  The brain is amazing!
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Re: OFF TOPIC - Interesting talk regarding the Brain
#5: November 09, 2011, 12:16:05 PM
Glad you enjoy SGG.  I don't really go off-topic, the first time infact, but it has helped me some days when others have something enjoyable to share.
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Re: OFF TOPIC - Interesting talk regarding the Brain
#6: November 09, 2011, 12:22:25 PM
Glad you enjoy SGG.  I don't really go off-topic, the first time infact, but it has helped me some days when others have something enjoyable to share.


I was happy to see an off-topic post. :) It's not that far off-topic, though. I think they're very relevant.
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Biochemistry, neurotransmitters and brain research
#7: October 31, 2012, 01:07:32 PM
As promised, here's the thread linking some of the biochemical information etc that is currently becoming available.  This seems to be relatively new information because of the advancement in brain scanning and other technology, or information which has been previously ignored.

Personally, it makes sense to me that this is added into the mix of causative reasons for the MLC - along with FOO issues, developmental issues, emotional issues etc

(EDITED DEC 2013 - See post #29, for a research update on why our MLCers may have FOO and emotional issues.)


If anyone has anything else of interest, please do post it, thanks.

A great description of chemical imbalance (neurotransmitters) - originally posted by AnneJ.
http://www.drjoecarver.com/clients/49355/File/Chemical%20Imbalance.html

A bit long winded, but explains that males can suffer exactly the same symptoms at mid life, as women do during menopause. 
Also, instead of a natural decline, stress can lead to a huge drop in testosterone - which then has a domino effect on the whole biochemistry of the body. 
http://holyhormones.com/mens-health/andropause/menalive-author-jed-diamond-phd-supporting-men-and-the-women-who-love-them-on-holy-hormones-honey-october-8/

previous thread: http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=1786.0
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Re: Biochemistry, neurotransmitters and brain research
#8: October 31, 2012, 01:12:29 PM
This is from Thundarr, written after talking to the Doctor of Psychology whom he works with:

As I promised AnneJ on my thread I would post the info I gleaned from my discussion with the long-time Doctor of Psychology I have the pleasure of working alongside.  I told him I had some general questions but I think he probably realized my level of questioning was a bit personal.  I decided to post this on a separate thread so that those who don't normally check my thread could be party to the info.  I did not solve the puzzle of MLC, but I certainly came away with some good perspectives of what it might be and how it's perceived by academia.

On whether or not MLC exists and why it is not recognized by the medical and psychological community:  "It is possible that MLC exists, but when you are dealing with a radical personality change before you can make an accurate diagnosis you have to first rule out medical causes.  Several things such as brain tumors, brain injuries, peri and menopause, andropause and many diseases can cause a drastic personality change." He went on to tell me the story of a local man who was very successful and suddenly began acting much younger.  His W ordered an MIW on him due to concerns for his welfare and the doctor ordered a CT scan on the man.  What he found was "frontal lobe atrophy" which can occur around 40-50 in males and females and is a precursor to dementia and Alzheimers.  He said that they symptoms can lessen and the person seem like they are returning to normal, but the condition is irreversible and they will inevitably worsen as they age further.  This was news to me, both about the term as well as the fact that no diagnosis can be accurately made without ruling out a medical component.  I wonder if the frontal lobe atrophy may have to do with how some never "come out of the tunnel" so to speak.

On why we should not take what they say or do personally:  We know that if a person is a good person at heart who is very caring, they cannot simply become what look like sociopaths overnight. If the person cared before and was empathetic to others' feelings then they will always be that way barring a severe traumatic event such as going to war.  But, even then the core person remains.  He said we should know and accept that the things they do are NOT personal even though they look and feel that way for sure.  If the person were really that way then they would have been that way all along and their lack of regard for others would have shown up in all facets of their life.  He stressed again not to take their words or actions personal.  This is why I thought he might have picked upon it being about me.

On other possible causes for what we term MLC:  He said that some people to become good at hiding behind their jobs or their friends and covering up parts of their personality that are undesirable or that they just don't want others to know about.  When they can no longer hide behind their jobs or the people around them, or when they begin to realize that the people around them have begun to figure them out they may stop hiding and expose their true selves.  This often happens with borderline patients who are able to function in society but are often screaming inside their heads.  They are able to compartmentalize by suppressing those aspects of their personalities.  Notice that this does not contradict with the previous paragraph as the core person never changes, but rather the undesirable traits simply come to light.  I wonder now if my W may fit this description.

He has some literature to give me on how brain functions affect personality and such. He said that if a personality change happens then it obviously has something to do with the brain or brain chemistry. That was another reason he said not to take it personally as there has to be something wrong upstairs, but we have no way of knowing what it is. We also discussed his views on covert depression and whether or not they could compartmentalize enough to function in their jobs and society but not be able to function emotionally, and his response was that was possible due to the fact that industrialized societies teach people to do that anyway as the focus is on achievement and attainment.  To me this gives credence to the theory that collectivist societies do not suffer from this epidemic.
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« Last Edit: October 31, 2012, 01:14:27 PM by kikki »

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Re: Biochemistry, neurotransmitters and brain research
#9: November 01, 2012, 12:58:18 PM
Addictions - brain development during infancy and the dopamine high.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=66cYcSak6nE

Canadian physician Gabor Maté is a specialist in terminal illnesses, chemical dependents, and HIV positive patients. Dr. Maté is a renowned author of books and columnist known for his knowledge about attention deficit disorder, stress, chronic illness and parental relations. His theme at TEDxRio+20 was addiction -- from drugs to power. From the lack of love to the desire to escape oneself, from susceptibility of the being to interior power -- nothing escapes.
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Re: Biochemistry, neurotransmitters and brain research
#10: November 01, 2012, 01:02:41 PM
http://inhealth.cnn.com/finding-the-best-depression-treatment/testosterone-treatment-for-depression-in-men?did=t1_rss1&hpt=hp_bn16

Testosterone Treatment for Depression in Men

Question:

I've been reading mixed reports about testosterone for depression. Is it a good treatment for depressed men?


Answer:

If testosterone levels are low, a man may feel blue, tired or irritable. He may have lower sexual desire and decreased confidence. He may be mentally sluggish. In such cases, testosterone treatment may help.

Hormone production tends to fall off gradually after age 40. Only 1 in 100 men under 40 have low testosterone. By age 70, a man on average produces about half as much as he did in his 20s. But for most men, that level is still considered normal.

That's why it's hard to define what low means. Hormone levels fall in every man as he ages. After 50, this decline can contribute to depression symptoms. Drinking, being overweight and stress can make the problem worse. But if depression is severe, it's less likely to be due to low testosterone.

You may have heard the term "male menopause." That name's misleading. Men continue to make testosterone. They don't go through a sudden change the way women do with estrogen.

Your doctor will not only check testosterone. He or she will do a complete medical exam. And may suggest other tests. If the level is in the normal range, the doctor will probably not recommend this treatment.

Moreover, because of potential side effects, testosterone treatment should never be taken lightly. It is not an anti-aging pill.

Extra testosterone may increase the risk of prostate cancer. It can boost the level of "bad" cholesterol. In some cases, extra testosterone may be bad for your liver or heart. Other side effects are breast swelling, headache, rash, acne, or baldness. And just what you don't want — testosterone can sometimes make you feel worse rather than better emotionally.

Still, testosterone treatment can bring a low level up to the normal range. The prescription is often a gel or a patch placed on the skin. It can also be given in an injection every other week. Depending on the circumstances, the doctor may suggest psychotherapy or an antidepressant drug, or both.
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Re: Biochemistry, neurotransmitters and brain research
#11: November 01, 2012, 09:54:19 PM
Seems from all this information:  there's not going to be a magic bullet!  Our mlcers will still, have to do the work... :(
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Re: Biochemistry, neurotransmitters and brain research
#12: November 02, 2012, 12:36:15 PM
Regarding addictive Behaviours, endorphins and its effects on the brain and person

http://www.indiana.edu/~engs/hints/addictiveb.html - ADDICTIVE BEHAVIORS AND THE ADDICTIVE PROCESS

Any activity, substance, object, or behavior that has become the major focus of a person's life to the exclusion of other activities, or that has begun to harm the individual or others physically, mentally, or socially is considered an addictive behavior. A person can become addicted, dependent, or compulsively obsessed with anything.  Some researchers imply that there are similarities between physical addiction to various chemicals, such as alcohol and heroin, and psychological dependence to activities such as compulsive gambling, sex, work, running, shopping, or eating disorders. It is thought that these behavior activities may produce beta-endorphins in the brain, which makes the person feel "high."  Some experts suggest that if a person continues to engage in the activity to achieve this feeling of well-being and euphoria, he/she may get into an addictive cycle. In so doing, he/she becomes physically addicted to his/her own brain chemicals, thus leading to continuation of the behavior even though it may have negative health or social consequences. Others feel that these are just bad habits.

Most physical addictions to substances such as alcohol, heroin, or barbiturates also have a psychological component. For example, an alcoholic who has not used alcohol for years may still crave a drink. Thus some researchers feel that we need to look at both physical and psychological dependencies upon a variety of substances, activities, and behaviors as an addictive process and as addictive behaviors. They suggest that all of these behaviors have a host of commonalities that make them more similar to than different from each other and that they should not be divided into separate diseases, categories, or problems.

Common Characteristics Among Addictive Behaviors
    There are many common characteristics among the various addictive behaviors:
    1. The person becomes obsessed (constantly thinks of) the object, activity, or substance.
    2. They will seek it out, or engage in the behaivor even though it is causing harm (physical problems, poor work or study performance, problems with friends, family, fellow workers). 
    3.  The person will compulsively engage in the activity, that is, do the activity over and over even if he/she does not want to and find it difficult to stop.
    4.  Upon cessation of the activity, withdrawal symptoms often occur.  These can include irritability, craving, restlessness or depression. 
    5.  The person does not appear to have control as to when, how long, or how much he or she will continue the behavior (loss of control). (They drink 6 beers when they only wanted one, buy 8 pairs of shoes when they only needed a belt, ate the whole box of cookies, etc).
    6. He/she often denies problems resulting from his/her engagement in the behavior, even though others can see the negative effects. 
    7. Person hides the behavior after family or close friends have mentioned their concern. (hides food under beds, alcohol bottles in closets, doesn't show spouse credit card bills, etc).
    8. Many individuals with addictive behaviors report a blackout for the time they were engaging in the behavior (don't remember how much or what they bought, how much the lost gambeling, how many miles they ran on a sore foot, what they did at the party when drinking)
    9.Depression is common in individuals with addictive behaviors. That is why it is important to make an appointment with a physician to find out what is going on.
    10. Individuals with addictive behaviors often have low self esteem, feel anxious if the do not have control over their environment, and come from psychologically or physically abusive families.


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Re: Biochemistry, neurotransmitters and brain research
#13: November 03, 2012, 09:45:22 AM
Very interesting- every time I asked my h what he was thinking about, he would tell me his work.  He told me before he left, that his priority was his job and he considered the people he worked with, his family.  So there you have it. ::)
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Re: Biochemistry, neurotransmitters and brain research
#14: November 03, 2012, 11:08:51 AM
Thanks Kikki.  Going back to something I read in your thread, I found it interesting that low dopamine contributes to loss of balance, tripping, motor skills issues, etc.  My H misjudged the distance from a bar stool to the floor in May, about 6 wks prior to BD, and messed up one ankle badly enough it's still bothering him, then tripped walking down the sidewalk in July and sprained the other ankle. I've also seen the inability to focus or concentrate and clearly, the feeling of not being "in love." Self-medicating via addictions (alcohol, etc., or as Real writes, love addictions) to raise dopamine levels makes sense.
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Re: Biochemistry, neurotransmitters and brain research
#15: November 03, 2012, 11:18:54 AM


From https://www.facebook.com/BestBrainPossible.  Lots of good stuff there.
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Re: Biochemistry, neurotransmitters and brain research
#16: November 03, 2012, 11:46:30 AM
Yay, thanks Kikki this is ace. I will get stuck in!

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Re: Biochemistry, neurotransmitters and brain research
#17: November 03, 2012, 01:55:52 PM
Thank you for this!! had heard some of the info but found the descriptions of GABA and ephinephrine enlightening. Some new news on dopamine as well...no wonder some of us go "off"...that is quit a soup of chemicals to keep balanced!!!
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Re: Biochemistry, neurotransmitters and brain research
#18: November 03, 2012, 02:41:20 PM
I don't know if this is relevant or not because I haven't finished the article but...Oliver Sachs [Awakenings] in a recent New Yorker writes about his experiments with drugs.  He's a scientist & it was legal but anyway very interesting.  He was a student or graduate student when dopamine, serotonin etc were discovered. 
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Re: Biochemistry, neurotransmitters and brain research
#19: November 03, 2012, 04:49:59 PM
Yes, I read that book. All the Oliver Sach's books I have read has been fascinating. Yes, Dopamine is a two edged sword. Needs to be taken seriously. It brought his patients out of catatonic states but had some very severe side-effects and they couldn't continue taking it for great lengths of time. Very sad. Michael j Fox also talks quit a bit about the role Dopamine  plays in his Parkinson's in his book. A Lucky Guy (or something like that.)
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Re: Biochemistry, neurotransmitters and brain research
#20: November 04, 2012, 12:17:48 PM
http://www.health-science-spirit.com/healsex.html

A few interesting graphs comparing excess/deficient dopamine, prolactin, and oxytocin levels. I think we can see a few things we recognize with our MLCers here.
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Re: Biochemistry, neurotransmitters and brain research
#21: November 04, 2012, 06:26:36 PM
Ready2, is it me or that article is a little odd? ??? ??? Not the graphs, they're fine, but the context and some of the ideas.
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Re: Biochemistry, neurotransmitters and brain research
#22: November 04, 2012, 09:51:41 PM
I agree.  I skimmed a little but didn't go too deep. I liked the graphs, though.  The problem I am mainly having in most of the "good" articles I'm finding is that most are written by companies with a product to sell.  ???  Or in cases like this, a little good info, a little to discard.  There needs to be a really solid resource on this!
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Re: Biochemistry, neurotransmitters and brain research
#23: November 05, 2012, 09:57:26 AM
There is some solid stuff out there, we've been posting some on out threads but the best stuff is, I think, very technical. It is dificult to find good, simple articles that are not from companies or people trying to sell something. Not saying all those articles are not useful, they are but some solid resource in lain, plain, simple language would be great.
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Re: Biochemistry, neurotransmitters and brain research
#24: November 12, 2012, 03:10:55 PM
Hoss has had a very noticeable increase in the redness of his skin (he was always very pale before) since summertime.  For awhile I assumed it was sunburn, but the last time I saw him it was clear it wasn't.  Recent pictures have continued this trend to an alarming degree.  I've commented to several people that he looks like a Red Devil.  So I decided to research it, and lo and behold, look what I found!

Reduce Facial Redness by Increasing Serotonin

Some researchers have discovered a relationship between lower serotonin levels in our bodies and facial flushing. When serotonin levels drop, due to stress, depression, anger, exhaustion or other causes, facial redness increases.

Serotonin is a neurotransmitter in our brains that helps us to sleep and regulates many other important body functions. It is also found in the blood and intestines, and it regulates many important body functions.

Actually, modern living can do a lot to sap our reserves of serotonin. If you eat a standard western diet and work all day in an office, you could easily be suffering from low levels of serotonin. Here are a few of the ways we can develop low serotonin:

    Smoking cigarettes
    Alcoholic beverages
    Too much caffeine
    Aspartame and other artificial sweeteners (use stevia or xylitol instead!)
    Not enough sunlight
    Inactivity and lack of exercise
    Digestive problems
    A low protein diet

Hormonal imbalances or genetic factors can also cause lower levels of serotonin in our bodies.

Correspondingly, when we do activities that raise our serotonin levels, facial flushing can calm down.

Some natural methods for increasing our serotonin levels are:

    Meditation
    Exercise
    Recreation
    Positive relationships
    Sunlight
    Balanced diet
    Supplements


Learn more: http://www.mysensitiveskincare.com/reduce-facial-redness.html#ixzz2C3KPGf1D
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Re: Biochemistry, neurotransmitters and brain research
#25: November 12, 2012, 08:38:26 PM
http://www.nasw.org/users/twoharts/serotonin.html

Link within your link ready2, fascinating information about serotonin my Achilles heel!

Thanks r2 x
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Re: Biochemistry, neurotransmitters and brain research
#26: November 12, 2012, 09:33:17 PM
And I thought his face was red from throwing temper tantrums!!!
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Re: Biochemistry, neurotransmitters and brain research
#27: November 12, 2012, 10:19:41 PM
http://www.nasw.org/users/twoharts/serotonin.html

Link within your link ready2, fascinating information about serotonin my Achilles heel!

Thanks r2 x

Ooh, I missed that...now I'm going to have to add this book to my wish list! 

And I thought his face was red from throwing temper tantrums!!!

 ;D ;D ;D  That was my take, too!  I told my dad to guess what was causing the redness, and he was like, "BOOZE!!  It's booze, right?!"   :o ::) ;D  For once...the answer is not booze.
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Re: Biochemistry, neurotransmitters and brain research
#28: November 13, 2012, 05:56:43 AM
And I thought the poor guy was just having hot flashes!
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Re: Biochemistry, neurotransmitters and brain research
#29: November 13, 2012, 08:32:29 AM
And I thought the poor guy was just having hot flashes!

Oh, if only "the change" would come... ;D
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Re: Biochemistry, neurotransmitters and brain research
#30: November 13, 2012, 01:28:46 PM
Interesting facts with red-faced indivduals and low serotonin levels because my W has just the opposite in that she has a completely pale complexion at this time.  She is very fair-skinned normally, but her lips and face are very pale, no color at all, almost anemic looking.  Could this be attributed to low serotonin levels as well or is there any hormone deficiency that may be tied to MLC and this pale complexion?  I've been wondering if hormones / chemical imbalances are playing a part.   
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Re: Biochemistry, neurotransmitters and brain research
#31: November 13, 2012, 02:02:39 PM
Interesting facts with red-faced indivduals and low serotonin levels because my W has just the opposite in that she has a completely pale complexion at this time.  She is very fair-skinned normally, but her lips and face are very pale, no color at all, almost anemic looking.  Could this be attributed to low serotonin levels as well or is there any hormone deficiency that may be tied to MLC and this pale complexion?  I've been wondering if hormones / chemical imbalances are playing a part.

Check this out.  There ARE ties, including iron deficiency and thyroid issues:   

Iron:

A healthy person should have a normal iron serum level in the range of 60 to 170 micrograms per deciliter of blood. Iron is an essential mineral, as well as a component of the proteins are used for oxygen transportation and metabolism. Iron helps to synthesize dopamine, epinephrine and serotonin. Iron is stored in the body for use when dietary iron intake is low. The healthy body maintains normal iron levels by controlling how much iron is absorbed from food.

Low iron is called anemia. There are many symptoms of this condition. The anemic will feel tired. He may have shortness of breathe and chest pain. The skin may be pale, and the feet and hands can be cold. Headaches, dizziness, and a lack of concentration also may be experienced.

Low iron levels can be determined by a physician through testing, and an iron supplement or a multivitamin with iron may be recommended.

Read more: What Is a Normal Iron Level? | eHow.com http://www.ehow.com/about_5434839_normal-iron-level.html#ixzz2C8tKQfsa


Thyroid:

http://www.ehow.com/how_5242395_recognize-signs-hypothyroidism.html


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Re: Biochemistry, neurotransmitters and brain research
#32: November 13, 2012, 02:58:26 PM
BINGO!  EUREKA!  SPOT ON!  This has my W written all over it!  Constantly cold hands and feet.  Always sleepy and tired  and always drinking caffeine sodas or teas.  If only there was a way for her to increase her iron intake ::)  W had been taking iron supplements but didn't keep up on those. 

But as we know as LBSers, we can't suggest anything like that!  We would be considered "pressuring" them.  When things first started after BD, I suggested to W to get a physical and she told me they did blood work.  To what extent, I was never told the results.  I do think there are other psychological issues with my W, but these hormonal changes may be a huge part as well.  I thought deep down that there may be some sort of chemical imbalance.  I may not be correct in this diagnosis, but after 19 years, I should have an understanding about my W's physical health and appearance.  Thanks for the information, Ready!  This helps me understand things more!
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Re: Biochemistry, neurotransmitters and brain research
#33: November 20, 2012, 01:23:25 PM
This discussion caught my eye...I hardly post so thought I'd chime in.  I'm not making excuses for H but I know he has been severely depressed for 3 years.  I was his cheerleader trying to make him happy.  After BD and therapy and this board...I've realized I can't make him happy and I went about it the wrong way.

I too told him he needed to get an MRI done and blood work 2 yrs ago.  Come to find out.. he has a frontal lobe tumor in the pituitary gland which is affecting all his hormones.  His testosterone was at a record low and his prolactins a record high.  He agreed to take the medication....WHOLE NEW MAN!!!!!  Then...we couldn't afford the medication anymore.  It was costing us $600 a month.  Well - I talked him into getting rechecked in May 2012 and all his hormones were back in the horrible range.  Example- Testosterone is supposed to be over 500 in men..his was 85.  Prolactins are supposed to be under 18 in men - his was 2600.  Thank you GOD - they now sell generic so its affordable.

A bit to late though cuz BD was end of May and moved out in June.  Its takes a good amount of time for meds to kick in with those levels.  I  just hope he's still taking them.

Thats my info for you guys!!!
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Re: Biochemistry, neurotransmitters and brain research
#34: November 20, 2012, 02:53:03 PM
http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/252082.php

article on depression and the brain
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Quote
https://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/581867_526042890770104_1599243385_n.jpg

Thought this was fitting.  B6 in particular is necessary for the creation of Serotonin. 
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The Biochemistry of MLC and Infidelity II
#36: June 20, 2013, 08:36:37 PM
I think our last biochemistry thread is long archived, so I thought I'd start this one for a new collection of articles and research. 

http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=2951.0;all
Found this older one on CNN:

http://www.cnn.com/2010/HEALTH/02/12/love.heart.brain/index.html?iref=mpstoryview

What your heart and brain are doing when you're in love
By Elizabeth Landau, CNN
February 12, 2010 2:16 p.m. EST
The hormones oxytocin and vasopressin make you feel deeply attached to someone.


(CNN) -- Poets, novelists and songwriters have described it in countless turns of phrase, but at the level of biology, love is all about chemicals.

Although the physiology of romantic love has not been extensively studied, scientists can trace the symptoms of deep attraction to their logical sources.

"Part of the whole attraction process is strongly linked to physiological arousal as a whole," said Timothy Loving (his real name), assistant professor of human ecology at the University of Texas, Austin. "Typically, that's going to start with things like increased heart rate, sweatiness and so on,"

When you catch sight of your beloved and your heart starts racing, that's because of an adrenaline rush, said Dr. Reginald Ho, a cardiac electrophysiologist and associate professor of medicine at Thomas Jefferson University Hospital in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania.

Here's how it works: The brain sends signals to the adrenal gland, which secretes hormones such as adrenaline, epinephrine and norepinephrine. They flow through the blood and cause the heart to beat faster and stronger, Ho said.

The response is somewhat similar to a fast heartbeat while running on a treadmill, although exercise has other benefits, he said.

For people with serious heart problems, love could actually be dangerous, Ho said. That's because when the heart rate goes up, the heart uses more oxygen, which can be risky for an older person with blood vessel blockages or who has had a prior heart attack. But good medicines such as beta blockers help curb the adrenaline response, Ho said.

It is also likely that norepinephrine, a stress hormone that governs attention and responding actions, makes you feel weak in the knees, said Helen Fisher, professor at Rutgers University and author of the book "Why Him? Why Her? Finding Real Love by Understanding Your Personality Type."

Fisher's research team did brain imaging of people who said they were "madly in love" and found activity in the area of the brain that produces the neurotransmitter dopamine. Dopamine and norepinephrine are closely related.

"What dopamine does is it gives you that focused attention, the craving, the euphoria, the energy and the motivation, in this case the motivation to win life's greatest prize," she said.

This norepinephrine response has never been precisely studied in relation to romantic love, but the system seems to be more activated in people in love, she said.

Also likely involved is the serotonin system, she said. Some data from an Italian study indicate that a drop in serotonin levels is associated with obsessive thinking.

The stress hormone cortisol has also been shown to have implications for love, Loving said. His lab showed study participants who had recently fallen in love a picture of a romantic partner or friend, and had them describe or "relive" the moment of falling in love or wanting to be friends, respectively. Those who recalled falling in love showed an increase in stress hormones such as cortisol even 30 minutes after they were asked to think about it.

Generally, there are three brain systems involved in romantic love: sex drive, love and attachment, Fisher said. The sex drive evolved to get you to look for a lot of partners, the "love" portion is for focusing mating energy on one specific person at a time, and attachment is for allowing you to tolerate the partner -- at least, long enough to have children with him or her.

These systems are often connected, but can operate separately, she said. That means you can start out with one of them -- casual sex, or an intense feeling of love, or an emotional connection -- and move on to the others. For example, what may start out as a one-night stand may feel like more because the hormones oxytocin and vasopressin, released during orgasm, make you feel deeply attached to someone. You may feel in love after that, or instead feel somehow responsible for the person, because of these hormones.

Fisher's team has found that romantic love doesn't have to die -- they found the same activity in the brains of people who said they were in love after 20 years of marriage as in people who had just fallen in love. This brain area makes dopamine and sends it to other areas.

In the days of early humans, in hunting-and-gathering societies, these qualities were especially advantageous for finding a person to bear and raise children with, she said.

Why, then, do small children fall in love if they are not trying to reproduce? Fisher hypothesizes that kids -- even 4-year-olds -- practice at love and learning more about themselves before it begins to become important to them.

Love also has health benefits for people who have aged beyond their reproductive years, she said. Being in love makes people feel optimistic, energetic, focused and motivated, which were all positive for health and societal contribution in the early days of humans, she said. So, it makes sense evolutionarily that people can still fall in love after their childbearing period.

Romance also is good for you. Studies have shown that people who have frequent sex are generally healthier, with a longer life, fewer coronary events and lower blood pressure. A 1995 study in the journal Demography found that marriage adds seven years to a man's life and two years to a woman's.

Loving's team is studying how people who have recently fallen in love respond to stressful situations. They hypothesize that people for whom the love is still new will respond to the stress and recover from it quicker than those who have recently been in a breakup or have been in a relationship for a long time.

"The guess is that when individuals are falling in love, they are walking around with rose-colored glasses," he said.
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Re: The Biochemistry of MLC and Infidelity II
#37: June 21, 2013, 02:45:12 AM
Quote
Also likely involved is the serotonin system, she said. Some data from an Italian study indicate that a drop in serotonin levels is associated with obsessive thinking.
Hi Ready
This would explain the crazy obsession with the OW that I saw in the early days. 
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Re: The Biochemistry of MLC and Infidelity II
#38: June 21, 2013, 06:23:16 AM
Don't know if this will hold true for anyone else on here, but in my H's family there are loads of autoimmune disorders - rheumatoid arthritis, lupus, Tourette's, etc. as well as the addictive behaviors, personality disorders and dementia that signal lifelong mental illness.

Nauert, Rick, PhD.  “Immune Disorders Tied to Mental Illness?” Psych Central, June 3, 2010.

A provocative study using genetically altered mice finds a cause-and-effect link between the immune system and a psychiatric disorder.

Mario Capecchi, a Nobel Prize-winning geneticist, discovered that bone marrow transplants cure mutant mice who pull out their hair compulsively.

The study provides the first cause-and-effect link between immune system cells and mental illness, and points toward eventual new psychiatric treatments.

“We’re showing there is a direct relationship between a psychiatric disorder and the immune system, specifically cells named microglia that are derived from bone marrow” and are found in the brain, says Capecchi.

“There’s been an inference. But nobody has previously made a direct connection between the two.”

The findings – published in the journal Cell – should inspire researchers “to think about potential new immune-based therapies for psychiatric disorders,” says Capecchi, a 2007 Nobel laureate in physiology or medicine.

“A lot of people are going to find it amazing,” says Capecchi. “That’s the surprise: bone marrow can correct a behavioral defect.”

Nevertheless, “I’m not proposing we should do bone marrow transplants for any psychiatric disorder” in humans, he says.

Bone marrow transplants are expensive, and the risks and complications are so severe they generally are used only to treat life-threatening illnesses, including certain cancers and disabling autoimmune diseases such as lupus.

Capecchi says that mice with the mutant gene that causes pathological grooming now can be used to study the surprising connections between the immune system’s microglia cells and mental illness – and ultimately to produce new treatments.
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Re: The Biochemistry of MLC and Infidelity II
#39: June 21, 2013, 06:38:16 AM
Studies have shown that people who have frequent sex are generally healthier
Oh goody, so I surmise that I should be dropping dead any moment now...
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Re: The Biochemistry of MLC and Infidelity II
#40: June 21, 2013, 02:08:33 PM
Maybe, Kikki. The obsession with OW seems to die relatively quick in most MLCers. It will be transferred to another OW or they escape of choice. The way I see it OW/OM obsession is more similar to drug/gambling or other addiction that to normal fall in love/ and/or romantic love.

Since many of us spend decades with the same person and there was a lot of love involved, including romantic love, I would say that our brains, at the time, were like the ones that article talks about for couples who have long lasting romantic love.

Loving's team is studying how people who have recently fallen in love respond to stressful situations. They hypothesize that people for whom the love is still new will respond to the stress and recover from it quicker than those who have recently been in a breakup or have been in a relationship for a long time.

Wonder how this plays out for our MLCers… They have both, a breakout and a “fall in love” situation…

To my knowledge iamnottheenemy there are none of those autoimmune disorders you mention in Mr J family.

A 1995 study in the journal Demography found that marriage adds seven years to a man's life and two years to a woman's.

So, we have 7 or 2 years less of life because we no longer have marriages... cool... NOT!
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Re: The Biochemistry of MLC and Infidelity II
#41: June 21, 2013, 10:05:05 PM
Studies have shown that people who have frequent sex are generally healthier
Oh goody, so I surmise that I should be dropping dead any moment now...

Move over Wed2Him, I will be right there beside you! lol!  ;D ;D
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Re: The Biochemistry of MLC and Infidelity II
#42: June 23, 2013, 09:10:12 AM
Tbh annej I don't think I really want an extra 2 years at the end of my life! Seven extra years for a man though is significant!

Most of our MLCers are dealing with stress in their work lives .... So they have the stress of work and the break down of a marriage ... No wonder they go for anything to relieve that stress! My H said to at BD "I can handle work, I can handle being a dad but I can't handle you aswell!" Biologically I get that, I do! Who wouldn't start $hagging the intern with its fantastic stress relieving properties! Wish he had tried St. John's wort and a massage first though!

Great to read ready2, I was missing the previous thread!

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Re: The Biochemistry of MLC and Infidelity II
#43: June 23, 2013, 09:58:56 AM
What about the biochemistry in LBS's brains after BD?
It must be quite significant to study as the trauma of BD is unique to all of us but our brains do work overtime too!
I have started taking 5 HTP (available from health stores) It contains tryptofan which converts to serotonin needed to keep calm and on an even keel. It helps me sleep much better than valerian did as it doesn't make me feel groggy or subdued. You only need it at night as the serotonin effect will last for much of the day.
Apparently serotonin regresses in shock/trauma conditions and that is why panic, fear and anxiety control the brain.
I have to say that having taken this now for the last month I am calmer and feel much more in control which is encouraging since BD was mid March this year.
Try it but not if you are currently taking St John's wort or any other Anti depressant without seeing your doctor.
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Re: The Biochemistry of MLC and Infidelity II
#44: June 23, 2013, 12:02:32 PM
Ironically, something along the lines of this topic crossed my mind this morning.  A few months ago I had a thread related to how the brain of an addict functions much differently than the brain of a non-addict and how it takes up to two years or more for the brain to return to normal functioning once the substance (in this case it was meth) is no longer being used.  Addicts use much less of their brain, which would explain several things from memory loss to poor judgment to impaired learning.  This was all demonstrated in the seminar through the use of electronic brain imaging.

So, my thought was two-fold.  First, were our spouses addicted to US (read: co-dependent) and therefore might they be going through the same type of brain reprogramming/ retraining that an addict would go through and this is what is causing the symptoms that we are able to see in them that we attribute to MLC?  (think chicken or the egg analogy here).  Also, are OUR brains going through something similar as it seems many of us were co-dependent and therefore experiencing extreme withdrawal symptoms not only from our spouses but the marriages/ relationships we had?  If that is true, then are our brains functioning in a way that WE are not perceiving the world the same as we normally would?  XYZCF mentioned something on my thread yesterday about her brain functioning about 70% as much as it did pre-BD and I can certainly relate to that as I know I'm still not mentally 100% even after two years and the D being finalized.  I don't know that I'll ever be, truthfully.
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Re: The Biochemistry of MLC and Infidelity II
#45: June 23, 2013, 12:31:56 PM
interesting theory Thundarr,

Quote
Also, are OUR brains going through something similar as it seems many of us were co-dependent and therefore experiencing extreme withdrawal symptoms not only from our spouses but the marriages/ relationships we had? 

Can't say I can agree with this though (co-dependency).  Many of us were in mid to very long term marriages - and the loss is not only for our relationship - it's also for what our children are being put through, and the loss of our family and hopes and dreams we had worked towards for many many years.  And most of us are still dealing with the financial and emotional fallout for everyone because of the crisis - plus dealing with the MLCer in the background, at the same time. 

As with all things - perhaps there are some people on the board who had co-denpendent relationships - that is not for me to say.  I have no idea. 
But to bundle up the LBS experience as being because we were co-dependent doesn't make any sense to me.  Just my thoughts and experience. 
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Re: The Biochemistry of MLC and Infidelity II
#46: June 23, 2013, 07:34:26 PM
I'm with Kikki on the codependency thing. It does not make sense to me. A long term marriage/relationship is, among many other things, a mutual help and support relationship. Humans are dependent of each other by nature. If humans do not depend on each other they don't make it.

Attribute MLC to codependency and the MLCer being an addict to the LBS does not make sense. Sorry Thundarr and others, but if I cannot depend (rely) on my husband, then something is wrong with my marriage.

The LBS brain is, in my opinion, similar to the one of a person that suffered PTSD. Like Kikki said, many of us are still dealing with the effects of our spouses MLC, we still suffer the stress, the trials and tribulations.

Yes, it may take the MLCer’s brain some two years post crisis to go back to normal mode.
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Re: The Biochemistry of MLC and Infidelity II
#47: June 23, 2013, 07:58:15 PM
but if I cannot depend (rely) on my husband, then something is wrong with my marriage.

You know this just made me feel a lot better! I've mulled over the co-dependency thing for a while and questioned my own a lot since MLC. But in truth I think the only thing I was guilty of was loving my man and maybe spoiling him rotten. Is that so bad? I WAS a strong woman, I took no crap. But he was my everything. Did that make me co-dependant?? I don't think so but I was made to think so by my MLCer. But that's because HE couldn't love me the same. HE was letting ME down! No, I don't think I was co-dependant. I think as Anne said, I just relied on him. Plus if he was happy, I was happy. Is that so bad??
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Re: The Biochemistry of MLC and Infidelity II
#48: June 23, 2013, 08:30:57 PM
There was a point, while both of us were in crisis and living under the same roof, that there was something I would call codependence - but it was less about our relationship and more a really sick feeding of each others' issues.  Honestly, thinking of it gives me a very dirty feeling and probably a good window into what the Hoss and OW relationship is like.  It was a huge downgrade from the relationship we enjoyed for most of our years, which was full of mutual respect, and what we called the ability to just "be" in every way.  I can honestly say Standing and learning more about my H's crisis is the most energy I've ever sunk into focusing on our relationship as opposed to just living pretty merrily in the now all these years.  That in itself is probably more co-dependent than our marriage ever was.
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Re: The Biochemistry of MLC and Infidelity II
#49: June 23, 2013, 08:42:48 PM
No  Justbelieve, it is not so bad. Spoiling him rotten may a little too much but I think you now know how not to do it.

Besides, lots of spouses spoil the other spouse rotten and none has a MLC. Some spouses never spoil a spouse rotten and the spouse has MLC.

We all depend of someone to a certain extend. Being it our boss/clients, friends, spouses, relatives. No man/woman is an island.

Same for me, Ready2. I never spend much time (if any) focusing in my relationship/marriage. I was living it, not analysing it. Even now I don't analyse the relationship that much. I prefer to concentrate on the neurobiochemical issues related to MLC and how those affect both MLCer and LBS.

I had a happy good marriage. Not a perfect one. It had ups, it had downs. Both me and Mr J knew long time relationships are made of good and not so good things.

We spend most of our time enjoying each other and working on our joint protect.

In fact, not being able to rely (depend) on our MLC spouses is one of our problems, isn't' it? We cannot count with them for anything. We either want to have some one we can depend upon, and can depend on us, or we want someone we cannot = an MLCer.

Don't think we want the latter...
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Re: The Biochemistry of MLC and Infidelity II
#50: June 23, 2013, 09:13:40 PM
In fact, not being able to rely (depend) on our MLC spouses is one of our problems, isn't' it? We cannot count with them for anything. We either want to have some one we can depend upon, and can depend on us, or we want someone we cannot = an MLCer.

This is exactly the situation I found myself in. I was pregnant with young son, I needed a hunter gatherer, instead I got a guy who brought nothing to the table (he even metaphorically took the table and a couple of the chairs  ;)) and left me holding the baby. If I was codependent then I needed to be biologically in order to ensure the survival of myself and our children. I wasn't codependent anyway, I had no choice but to be hugely capable and independent ... Just pi$$ed off my h was acting so selfishly at a time when I was reliant upon his role as strong provider, the role the MLCer is running from.
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Re: The Biochemistry of MLC and Infidelity II
#51: September 10, 2013, 12:17:47 PM
Codependency in some degree in marriage is normal, especially in long therm marriages with children. We are literally family, like pack of wolves in animal world. But exists unhealthy co-dependence, individual who suffer that before marriage bring it into marriage. Young human have goal to rise into independent one and then left original family and then form own new family.  Sure he/she will connected with original family, in healthy way.

Point is that someone can be codependent in original family and bring that unhealthy co-dependence in new one.
 
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Re: The Biochemistry of MLC and Infidelity II
#52: September 10, 2013, 12:24:35 PM
Studies have shown that people who have frequent sex are generally healthier

Oh goody, so I surmise that I should be dropping dead any moment now...


Ok... I want to know where the line forms for all the dead bodies for the lack of sex??

Should I bring wheelbarrows with me or what???
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Re: The Biochemistry of MLC and Infidelity II
#53: September 10, 2013, 12:29:37 PM
Quote
Point is that someone can be codependent in original family and bring that unhealthy co-dependence in new one.

This is a very good point.  Some of us who see our spouses suddenly leave us and return to their family of origin during crisis (where they might not have even been seemingly close before) really see it manifest.
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Re: The Biochemistry of MLC and Infidelity II
#54: September 10, 2013, 01:01:49 PM
Tbh annej I don't think I really want an extra 2 years at the end of my life! Seven extra years for a man though is significant!

The way I look at it is: 

Due to his threat to kill me if I didn't give him the divorce I'm already 3 years ahead of the lifespan I would have had had I not done it.

And due to this last "go around" I cannot imagine that I decreased my lifespan due to the ABSENCE OF STRESS I was absorbing due to a TOTALLY dysfunctional co-dependent relationship.

However he did have to kick me out and assault me in order for me to get here. Oh well took me a little while to catch on. Just didn't want to give up I guess...
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There are two ways of spreading light:
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Don't ask why someone is still hurting you; ask why you keep letting them.What you allow continues.

At some point you have to get sick of going through the same sh!t.

Women are NOT rehabilitation centers for badly raised men. It is not your job to fix ,parent, raise or change him.
You want a partner not a project.

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Re: The Biochemistry of MLC and Infidelity II
#55: September 10, 2013, 05:15:30 PM
Well, I want the 2 extra years. Then again I would not mind to live 200 years and be able to observe all the changes the world will suffer.  :)

But I do understand what you say about you being 3 years ahead of your lifespan and that you would not be if you had not given your husband divorce.

Mr J was nasty and violent as well early on but not like your husband. Still, one day things got pretty bad. Gladly he then calmed down. But I have been living over 300 km from him for over 6 years and I never see him.

Not sure I would want to be alone with him until his crisis is totally done. And even when that happens...   
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Re: The Biochemistry of MLC and Infidelity II
#56: September 10, 2013, 05:38:29 PM
I wouldn't get anywhere near mine without a Trooper in the room.

Some of my friends said they wouldn't live a mile and a half down the road from him like I do. I told them this is my village and I was living here and that idiot wasn't going to chase me out.
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There are two ways of spreading light:
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Don't ask why someone is still hurting you; ask why you keep letting them.What you allow continues.

At some point you have to get sick of going through the same sh!t.

Women are NOT rehabilitation centers for badly raised men. It is not your job to fix ,parent, raise or change him.
You want a partner not a project.

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Re: Biochemistry, neurotransmitters and brain research
#57: December 10, 2013, 04:57:24 PM
Courtesy of HeyJude:

Psychiatry Professor, Gin Malhi, on his research into the minds of teenage girls and early signals of the development of depression as heard on Nine to Noon, Radio New Zealand. http://www.radionz.co.nz/national/programmes/ninetonoon/audio/2578823/parenting-with-gin-malhi


 
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Re: Biochemistry, neurotransmitters and brain research
#58: December 10, 2013, 05:11:26 PM
From Professor Gin Malhi's talk above:

Stress, pressure and underlying causes of depression and anxiety.

What may be okay for one person, may trigger an event in another person.
For example - we all have immunity at different levels - if we are exposed to the same bugs, the person with lower levels of immunity will get the infection.  That's not to say that the other person wouldn't get the infection if they're exposed long enough.
The level of immunity that we start off with, will be a gene determinant.

Our brains are functioning in terms of our immune system and our stress axis - it's all unique to each individual.  You can't compare and say this person didn't respond to this loss with depression.  Why did it affect this person in such a drastic manner?

Our brains develop and evolve over 20-25 years.  During that time, they become unique organs.  Each have strengths and weaknesses.  In terms of attributes that function perfectly well, and some that have some scarring/some vulnerability, and that may well be because of the early environment that the person has grown up in. 

In terms of emotional disorders and what causes depression, there are a number of factors.
There is a genetic component - we know it runs in families.
There's also a strong hormonal component because its much more common in women and girls.  The role of stress is pivotal - low grade chronic stress, rather than acute stress is much more damaging.

Stress does damage braincells and kill braincells.  That is going to be a factor in developing anxiety disorders as well as depression. 

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Re: Biochemistry, neurotransmitters and brain research
#59: December 10, 2013, 05:14:10 PM
This all has me wondering - Is 'male type acting out depression' going to one day have its own name or own depression sub category?
Terence Real has written about it in his book 'I don't want to hear about it - Overcoming the secret legacy of Male Depression'.

And is midlife depression so common in men because of the comparative loss of testosterone to female hormone ratio?  Does testosterone protect men to some extent earlier in life? 
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« Last Edit: December 10, 2013, 06:13:39 PM by kikki »

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Re: Biochemistry, neurotransmitters and brain research
#60: December 10, 2013, 06:29:07 PM
So glad to see this thread revived!  I too think there's something unique about the male experience with this that certainly must link back to the T factor.  There are too many common symptoms in severely lowered testosterone and MLC for their to not be a tie - though I think MLC incorporates other things as well.  I think we talk about it so much less with men because it puts their "manhood" into question in our society, ridiculous as that is.  Peri-menopause and menopause, or even the archaic "the change of life" is something that has been on the radar for so much longer and is acceptable because women and feelings are okay - men and feelings? No way.  (That's just my overview of our society, not my actual belief, just to clarify). 

I wonder if there are studies on puberty in boys that would tie all of this together - to see comparatively how those changes ranked from individual to individual, to see if there are any predictable signs far earlier in life than where we're looking on the chemical side (childhood issues, I know, I know, Erikson crowd...;) ).  Just thinking out loud on it amongst the like minded. :)
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Re: Biochemistry, neurotransmitters and brain research
#61: December 10, 2013, 06:34:28 PM
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So glad to see this thread revived!  I too think there's something unique about the male experience with this that certainly must link back to the T factor.  There are too many common symptoms in severely lowered testosterone and MLC for their to not be a tie - though I think MLC incorporates other things as well.  I think we talk about it so much less with men because it puts their "manhood" into question in our society, ridiculous as that is.  Peri-menopause and menopause, or even the archaic "the change of life" is something that has been on the radar for so much longer and is acceptable because women and feelings are okay - men and feelings? No way.  (That's just my overview of our society, not my actual belief, just to clarify). 

Very true.  I remember not too many years ago, when PMT and menopause were not considered any more than the figment of female's imaginations.
It may take more patience for this to become accepted too.

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I wonder if there are studies on puberty in boys that would tie all of this together - to see comparatively how those changes ranked from individual to individual, to see if there are any predictable signs far earlier in life than where we're looking on the chemical side (childhood issues, I know, I know, Erikson crowd...;) ).  Just thinking out loud on it amongst the like minded. :)
I am sure there must be, but I haven't personally come across anything.
I do know at the anxiety disorders clinic that I dragged my H along to a few times post BD, that they said there was a familial link, and to watch our boys especially at puberty, because anxiety can often be triggered then.
They also considered that Depression always follows anxiety - you never see anxiety on its own. 
Another thing was that they told him that he was using leaving his family to control his anxiety symptoms, and that it wouldn't work forever.  It would merely be a temporary fix.
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« Last Edit: December 10, 2013, 06:36:55 PM by kikki »

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Re: Biochemistry, neurotransmitters and brain research
#62: December 10, 2013, 09:33:44 PM
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They also considered that Depression always follows anxiety - you never see anxiety on its own.

Like replay into liminality.  Interesting.

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Another thing was that they told him that he was using leaving his family to control his anxiety symptoms, and that it wouldn't work forever.  It would merely be a temporary fix.

But I wonder what they were basing that on.  Is it because behaviorally it won't work, or is there some chemical reason unknown to us lay folk that would dictate a predictable pattern of change?  I know that's the million dollar MLC question, but still, it boggles the mind to think medical professionals and researchers may have insight into this those of us living through it could surely use.  I think that's where Standing changes the game - when people just divorce and move on no one's left to have an investment in the answer to these questions!
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Re: Biochemistry, neurotransmitters and brain research
#63: December 10, 2013, 09:44:53 PM
Yes absolutely, like replay into liminality.

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Another thing was that they told him that he was using leaving his family to control his anxiety symptoms, and that it wouldn't work forever.  It would merely be a temporary fix.

But I wonder what they were basing that on.  Is it because behaviorally it won't work, or is there some chemical reason unknown to us lay folk that would dictate a predictable pattern of change?  I know that's the million dollar MLC question, but still, it boggles the mind to think medical professionals and researchers may have insight into this those of us living through it could surely use.  I think that's where Standing changes the game - when people just divorce and move on no one's left to have an investment in the answer to these questions!

I wish I could say.  I wasn't in any position to ask at the time.  Bursty was jumping around the room and bolted at this point.  The psychiatrist looked at me sadly and said that he was very sorry, there was nothing they could do to help unless Bursty wanted help.

I thought at the time that he meant behaviourally it was controlling his symptoms.  The change, the removal of responsibilities etc. And that that would only work for so long until reality hit again, but I could be wrong.
That is so true - most people seem to view this as a character fault, instead of disinhibition of the brain due to the depression and brain changes, and therefore I guess there is no going back for them, and therefore no digging deeply into the cause.
I probably don't need to explain how relieved I felt to discover this site explaining all of the behaviours, a few months post BD. 
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Re: Biochemistry, neurotransmitters and brain research
#64: December 10, 2013, 10:09:48 PM
I've only listened to half of it; need to run, but what struck me was him saying that low-level chronic stress was one of the things that damaged brain cells, and possibly pre-disposed people  to depression later in life.  His study is on girls, and I don't know if it's different for boys, but I do wonder about this.

I always thought that my H grew up in a kind, loving family and never had the horrible childhood traumas that so many of our MLCers have, but money was a chronic problem, and that is one thing that I know has stayed with my H -- he so badly doesn't want to be poor.  But is a horrible money manager.  Somehow that seems to be tied into his idea of himself. 

Yes, society seems to view things like he does as a character fault; I do see the depression involved (not that that helps the practicalities that we're left to deal with) and the absolute inability to see clearly and to deal with it, hence the running.

I wonder where the avoidant personality thing comes into this?

And the next obvious thing:  what is this stress doing to my own teens?  What can be done to try to avoid them having these problems in the future?
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Re: Biochemistry, neurotransmitters and brain research
#65: December 10, 2013, 10:56:33 PM
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His study is on girls, and I don't know if it's different for boys, but I do wonder about this.

He mentions later on that they chose to stick to study one gender to remove as many variables as possible, and because they know that hormones DO affect things.

That's interesting re your H and his growing up - my H was in the same situation.

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I wonder where the avoidant personality thing comes into this?
Not sure about the avoidant personality - but definitely denial is a very major part of a great deal of mental disorders.  Part of their inability to see things clearly.
Plus sheer terror that there is a mental health issue to start with.  Historically, these things were thought to be caused by evil spirits or similar.  And it's going to take people a while to understand that you get poor behaviour when the brain function is poor.

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And the next obvious thing:  what is this stress doing to my own teens?  What can be done to try to avoid them having these problems in the future?
I agree this is a major concern.  And for ourselves as well.  Not quite sure what we do about it though.

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« Last Edit: December 10, 2013, 10:57:35 PM by kikki »

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Re: Biochemistry, neurotransmitters and brain research
#66: December 11, 2013, 12:16:13 AM
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Quote
And the next obvious thing:  what is this stress doing to my own teens?  What can be done to try to avoid them having these problems in the future?
I agree this is a major concern.  And for ourselves as well.  Not quite sure what we do about it though.
 

I know I sometimes feel it physically inside; not that hurt that came at BD, but a deep tension.  Do the usual breathing, meditation, but you never know what it's really doing.

What I am finding is that I just don't have anything LIKE the energy and focus that I used to have.  So so much just doesn't get done.  I do try to prioritise, but often end up, for example, cleaning instead of doing something that might help me generate income in the future, because it just drives me so nuts to see a dirty or untidy house.  I'm unable to focus on work because of house, but doing house helps me feel more in control, bit of a vicious circle. 

Sometimes it works, doing the practical stuff helps unlock energy to tackle more creative things, but I find that I'm often at a loss as to what is the right thing to do.  And that "at a loss" is the symptom of all this, it's the lack of thinking straight. 

This all goes to the idea of having compassion; I was going to start a separate thread on resentments and compassion.   Us understanding what is going on should help about that, but we still, at least I do, find ourselves feeling resentful when we could channel that energy more positively. 

I'll listen to the rest of it, it's a good one!
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Re: Biochemistry, neurotransmitters and brain research
#67: December 14, 2013, 04:23:41 PM
Had a bit of an aha moment with this information on dissociative disorder.

http://www.mind.org.uk/information-support/types-of-mental-health-problems/dissociative-disorders/#.Uqz00mQW3rc


The effects of dissociative disorder may include:

gaps in your memory
finding yourself in a strange place without knowing how you got there
out-of-body experiences
loss of feeling in parts of your body
distorted views of your body
forgetting important personal information
being unable to recognise your image in a mirror
a sense of detachment from your emotion
the impression of watching a movie of yourself
feelings of being unreal
internal voices and dialogue
feeling detached from the world
forgetting appointments
feeling that a customary environment is unfamiliar
a sense that what is happening is unreal
forgetting a talent or learned skill
a sense that people you know are strangers
a perception of objects changing shape, colour or size
feeling you don’t know who you are
acting like different people, including child-like behaviour
being unsure of the boundaries between yourself and others
feeling like a stranger to yourself
being confused about your sexuality or gender
feeling like there are different people inside you
referring to yourself as ‘we’
being told by others that you have behaved out of character
finding items in your possession that you don’t remember buying or receiving
writing in different handwriting
having knowledge of a subject you don’t recall studying.
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Re: Biochemistry, neurotransmitters and brain research
#68: December 14, 2013, 11:00:06 PM
Dissociative Fugue especially shares a lot of traits with my MLCer.

I can pick out immediately from this list the ones that I know for sure (it's a given there are things he didn't tell me):

gaps in your memory
distorted views of your body
forgetting important personal information
a sense of detachment from your emotion
internal voices and dialogue
feeling detached from the world
feeling that a customary environment is unfamiliar
a sense that what is happening is unreal
forgetting a talent or learned skill
a sense that people you know are strangers
feeling you don’t know who you are
acting like different people, including child-like behaviour
being unsure of the boundaries between yourself and others
feeling like a stranger to yourself
referring to yourself as ‘we’
being told by others that you have behaved out of character
writing in different handwriting

And just to geek out a bit on it (I think the thread title would allow for that  ;D):

http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Textbook_of_Psychiatry/Dissociative_Disorders/Pathogenesis

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In the area of neurobiological research, multiple studies were done that confirm the presence of physiological changes associated with dissociative symptoms. As already mentioned, there is a hypothesis that early psychological trauma or abuse (i.e., stress) can mediate the development of those changes. To date, several neurotransmitter systems have been implicated in the development of Dissociative Disorders: Hypothalamo-Pituitary-Adrenal Dysfunction (HPA), Glutamate/N-methyl-D-aspartate (NMDA) receptor, Serotonin 5-HT2a, 5-HT2c, ?-aminobutyric acid (GABA), and Opioid receptors.

The HPA axis is known to play a central role in medicating the stress response. Several studies on this have been done to date. Most of them presented similar findings showing that individuals with dissociative symptoms have basal HPA-axis hyperactivity with elevated cortisol and diminished pituitary negative-feedback inhibition (Simeon, 2006).

As an extension of this dysregulation due to stress, some research was performed using neuroimaging. In both animal and human studies, stress at a young age has been shown to be associated with changes in the structure of the hippocampus. Smaller hippocampal and amygdalar volumes in patients with dissociative symptoms have been reported by some researchers (Vermetten, 2006). Decreased hippocampal volume may be explained by stress exposure; the hippocampus is a major target organ for glucocorticoids, which are released during stressful experiences, and prolonged exposure to glucocorticoids can lead to progressive atrophy of the hippocampus. The exact mechanism that can lead to smaller amygdalar volume is unclear. It is possible that other neurotransmitters play a role in this change. In their study, D’Souza et al. (2006) proposed that dissociative symptoms, similar to psychosis, may be related to the inhibitory (GABAergic) deficits that cause unopposed stimulation of serotonin receptors. Lysergic acid diethylamide (LSD), dimethyltryptamine (DMT) work as agonists of serotonin 5-HT2a and 5-HT2c receptors, again suggesting a possible mediating role for serotonin in dissociation.

This throws a lot of thoughts my way about the effectiveness of supplements in a case like this (luckily most that I've read says talk therapy, not pharma, is the preferred treatment.  Not a fan of pharma here!).  Found this from http://www.psychforums.com/dissociative-identity/topic116258.html

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so the difference between DID and schizophrenia could be that in DID, the brain produces strong and coherent semantic models (alters) that correspond to different appreciations of the outside world. In schizophrenia, on the other hand, the semantic coherence breaks down altogether.

the interesting thing is, schizophrenia, according to some researchers, is characterised by an excess of dopamine in the brain. Certain drugs that massively boost dopamine in the brain (such as cocaine) can temporarily induce schizophrenia-like symptoms in healthy subjects, such as semantic disintegration, paranoia and delusions.

I'm not sure about the dopamine factor in DID, but I know that I, personally, am frequently low on dopamine. Now here's the thing: I have also noticed that once I increase my dopamine levels (through drugs or supplements), my mental fragmentation (i.e. separateness from alters) becomes less.

So this leads me to think: what if there is some kind of continuum, the extreme points of which are DID and schizophrenia, that is mediated by dopamine? so:

low dopamine - rigid semantic structures that can appear difficult to dissolve (e.g. amnestic walls between alters, difficulty integrating different structures/alters)

high dopamine - fluid and 'soft' semantic structure with a tendency to completely disintegrate.

I bring this up here because my xH had a marked period of cycling forward in spring 2012 after I'd suggested he take l-tyrosine, which is an amino acid that works to increase dopamine.  It cut off abruptly when he stopped (I suspect at OW's urging based on a few clues). 

All interesting data that just gives us a little more possible insight, I think.
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Re: Biochemistry, neurotransmitters and brain research
#69: December 15, 2013, 12:36:34 AM
Lots of info here:

http://www.raysahelian.com/
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Re: Biochemistry, neurotransmitters and brain research
#70: December 15, 2013, 03:50:05 AM
From Professor Gin Malhi's talk above:

Stress, pressure and underlying causes of depression and anxiety.

What may be okay for one person, may trigger an event in another person.

Our brains are functioning in terms of our immune system and our stress axis - it's all unique to each individual.  You can't compare and say this person didn't respond to this loss with depression.  Why did it affect this person in such a drastic manner?

Our brains develop and evolve over 20-25 years.  During that time, they become unique organs.  Each have strengths and weaknesses.  In terms of attributes that function perfectly well, and some that have some scarring/some vulnerability, and that may well be because of the early environment that the person has grown up in. 

In terms of emotional disorders and what causes depression, there are a number of factors.
There is a genetic component - we know it runs in families.
There's also a strong hormonal component because its much more common in women and girls.  The role of stress is pivotal - low grade chronic stress, rather than acute stress is much more damaging.

Stress does damage braincells and kill braincells.  That is going to be a factor in developing anxiety disorders as well as depression.

Interesting Kikki...no depression in my husbands family but he has been under low chronic stress for the past decade due to factors outside of the home(probably triggered his anED  back in 2007, then add his Thyroid issues to that...and the Chronic Stress triggered my husbands depression a few years ago, coupled with his childhood issues, triggered his MLC.

His Prozac worked in his favor somehow but did not hinder the whole process.  Now that he has run off to a country where his past does not follow him, I am not sure how long his crisis will last. 

He told me last year he thinks he is suffering from depression...and he agreed with me when talking about his childhood issues that the death of his father had something to do with the emotional crack in our marriage ...but that is also aided in his MLC...but then I lost him after that...he has been with OW 6 months and is now someone I don't recognize.

Frustrating, very frustrating..................

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« Last Edit: December 15, 2013, 04:16:03 AM by StandingStrongGermany »
Even if you are the minority of one, the truth is the truth.   Mahatma Ghandi

Together-17 years
M- 15 Yrs
BD- June 24, 2013
Affair began May 2012
moved in with OW August 2013
Aug 2014, H diagosed with terminal cancer
H filed for divorce Sept 2014
H Died 3 March, 2015

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http://www.latimes.com/science/sciencenow/la-sci-sn-memory-updating-20140204,0,3359715.story

This is a very interesting article about how we can't trust our memory to be accurate.  I suspect our MLC'ers rewriting of history has a lot to do with inaccurate memory  of events as well as sleep issues affecting the ability to remember. 

Just throwing this out on the table to look at.
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Re: Rewriting history and memory
#72: February 05, 2014, 04:04:04 PM
That's really interesting JD.
Here's another one.
http://new.ted.com/talks/elizabeth_loftus_the_fiction_of_memory

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A new study published in the Journal of Neuroscience suggests memory is faulty and can insert things from the present into  memories from the past.
Tags: latest news,newsy,brain,brain edits memory,brains memory,Health News,journal of neuroscience,memory,new memory study,northwestern university study,science news

----------------------------------

There it is folks, it's real: They re-wite history and we're not the crazy ones..

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« Last Edit: October 29, 2014, 05:14:44 PM by Anjae »

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Is there a link to the article? I'm interested in seeing what it has to say.

Human memory can be very unreliable—anyone who's had to deal with eyewitness accounts to an accident or a crime can attest to that. Recovered memory therapy, which was used to help people access memories that have supposedly been repressed by trauma or abuse, is considered unethical and dangerous today because the recovered memories are unreliable. Also, some therapy techniques can actually be used to introduce elements that the subject then later claims to "remember".

Heck, there are LBSes here who have probably done the same thing. When you look at your MLCer's past actions and statements through the lens of their current crisis, it's easy to "realize" that your spouse has always been selfish, abusive, or untrustworthy.
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Heck, there are LBSes here who have probably done the same thing. When you look at your MLCer's past actions and statements through the lens of their current crisis, it's easy to "realize" that your spouse has always been selfish, abusive, or untrustworthy.

I think whatever you can remember from the majority of any relationship is what effects us the most.

 The ex could have been the nicest most wonderful man in someone elses eyes ( or even to me for the majority of it)

 But when FEEL you are unlistened to or don't feel safe expressing yourself- the relationship would be interpreted as abusive IMHO. Maybe someone else wouldn't require that in a relationship. So he would be someone elses "prince"

To me that's why  it's important for us to stay away from them so minimal damage is done emotionally to us during this crisis. It was very hard to get passed the things he said regardless of what he did at 1st BD. Now at 2nd? Forget it.

I read stories about how kind, caring, attentive, and wonderful spouses were. If that's the case that's why I urge people to stay away from them as if I had those kinds of memories I would want to preserve them. And the less damage they are allowed to inflict on us the better the chance for reconciliation. the less we have to get "passed"

They say it takes 100 positive affirmations to somewhat negate a negative in children.  Children have good memories.

I'd like to read this article also.
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At some point you have to get sick of going through the same sh!t.

Women are NOT rehabilitation centers for badly raised men. It is not your job to fix ,parent, raise or change him.
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Heck, there are LBSes here who have probably done the same thing. When you look at your MLCer's past actions and statements through the lens of their current crisis, it's easy to "realize" that your spouse has always been selfish, abusive, or untrustworthy.

I think whatever you can remember from the majority of any relationship is what effects us the most.

 The ex could have been the nicest most wonderful man in someone elses eyes ( or even to me for the majority of it)

 But when FEEL you are unlistened to or don't feel safe expressing yourself- the relationship would be interpreted as abusive IMHO. Maybe someone else wouldn't require that in a relationship. So he would be someone elses "prince"

To me that's why  it's important for us to stay away from them so minimal damage is done emotionally to us during this crisis. It was very hard to get passed the things he said regardless of what he did at 1st BD. Now at 2nd? Forget it.

I read stories about how kind, caring, attentive, and wonderful spouses were. If that's the case that's why I urge people to stay away from them as if I had those kinds of memories I would want to preserve them. And the less damage they are allowed to inflict on us the better the chance for reconciliation. the less we have to get "passed"

They say it takes 100 positive affirmations to somewhat negate a negative in children.  Children have good memories.

I'd like to read this article also.
-------------------------------

I guess just google the tags, I read it at work and haven't had a chance to look into it further myself..But I'm a counselor at a University and we get snippits of research all the time and that one caught my eye for sure, and yes, my H has definately re-written the ENTIRE history of a 20 year (mostly wonderful) marriage to be with a trollip 16 years younger with 2 kids of her own..Bat$hit crazy in every way..sad too..

----------------
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They say it takes 100 positive affirmations to somewhat negate a negative in children.  Children have good memories.

That seems awfully high. I've read that it takes five positive encounters balances out the effects of one negative encounter, as in this PDF:

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On the basis of these results, Gottman (1994) has proposed a revealing diagnostic index for evaluating relationships: He proposed that in order for a relationship to succeed, positive and good interactions must outnumber the negative and bad ones by at least five to one. If the ratio falls below that, the relationship is likely to fail and breakup. This index converges well with the thrust of our argument: Bad events are so much stronger than good ones that the good must outnumber the bad in order to prevail. Gottman's index suggests that bad events are on average five times as powerful as good ones, at least with regard to close relationships.

That article discusses how that plays into parenting but doesn't quote anything like a 100:1 good-to-bad ratio.
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I read it at work and haven't had a chance to look into it further myself.

Is this it? http://www.jneurosci.org/content/34/6/2203.short
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Helen Fisher and ADs
#79: March 11, 2014, 03:55:47 PM
Transcript portion from a TED talk by Helen Fisher- the lover researcher about antidepressants.
Hmmmm.  Seems midlife depression that is treated leads to MLC?

I've got nothing against people who take them short term, when they're going through something perfectly horrible. They want to commit suicide or kill somebody else. I would recommend it. But more and more people in the United States are taking them long term. And indeed, what these drugs do is raise levels of serotonin. And by raising levels of serotonin, you suppress the dopamine circuit. Everybody knows that. Dopamine is associated with romantic love. Not only do they suppress the dopamine circuit, but they kill the sex drive. And when you kill the sex drive, you kill orgasm. And when you kill orgasm, you kill that flood of drugs associated with attachment. The things are connected in the brain. And when you tamper with one brain system, you're going to tamper with another. I'm just simply saying that a world without love is a deadly place.
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« Last Edit: March 11, 2014, 04:10:54 PM by Anjae »
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Re: Helen Fisher and ADs
#80: March 11, 2014, 04:38:42 PM
I saw this in my H, so I can't argue.  He wasn't on them for a long period of time, but the plan was for him to be on them at least a year, then the psych wanted to do talk therapy once he was, I guess, enough of a zombie to not to freak out about whatever they discussed.  The dosage was increased to that end during the time he was on them, then he took himself off cold turkey and that's all she wrote. ;)

One of his more pronounced cycles forward came after I'd coaxed him into taking l-tyrosine, which increases dopamine.  I had read early on (but I can't find the link - it was before I knew I'd have a library of this stuff built) a study by some psychiatrist who had seen cases of a complete return to love for their partner with dopamine restoration after SSRI treatment - her conclusion was as we've seen, that it's not that the feelings are gone, they're just suppressed chemically.  I'll absolutely post the article if I can ever find it again!  It may actually have been Helen Fisher. 
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Re: Helen Fisher and ADs
#81: March 11, 2014, 05:35:51 PM
Hmmmm.  Seems midlife depression that is treated leads to MLC?

Maybe but untreated midlife depression does not prevent MLC, in fact, it seems to increase the level of the crisis. So, not sure what is best...

There are antidepressants that do not suppress sex drive, like Bupropiom, an atypical antidepressant.

Also, I think the meds that work better with a MLCer are things like Lamotrigine, a medicine for bipolar, that come from neurology. Lamotrigine was the only med, along with alprazolam for the anxiety, that worked with my cousin who had MLC.
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Re: Helen Fisher and ADs
#82: March 12, 2014, 12:36:12 PM
Hmmmm.  Seems midlife depression that is treated leads to MLC?

Maybe but untreated midlife depression does not prevent MLC, in fact, it seems to increase the level of the crisis. So, not sure what is best...

There are antidepressants that do not suppress sex drive, like Bupropiom, an atypical antidepressant.

Also, I think the meds that work better with a MLCer are things like Lamotrigine, a medicine for bipolar, that come from neurology. Lamotrigine was the only med, along with alprazolam for the anxiety, that worked with my cousin who had MLC.

H has been on Prozac a few years...after he got ED...probably aided his crisis in strengthening.  If he was not living with OW, I would get him to switch medication.  But it is out of my hands now...a shame.

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Re: Helen Fisher and ADs
#83: March 12, 2014, 06:49:11 PM
Prozac can have some strange side effects. Not everyone tolerates it well. Mr J have had normal depression before MLC, caused my physical exhaustion (this was years before MLC) and was prescribed Prozac. Prozac left him crazy so it had to be removed.

Yes, maybe your husband ED issues contributed to his MLC.

Switch medication has, of course, to be done by a doctor. Since your husband is living with OW, well, let him and OW handle his MLC.  :)
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Re: Helen Fisher and ADs
#84: March 12, 2014, 08:07:44 PM
My ex went through three Ads and then went cold turkey, went back on, went back off...
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Re: Helen Fisher and ADs
#85: March 12, 2014, 09:33:45 PM
I think it's great that people are talking about this stuff.
My H was another one who had the dopamine levels/lower sex drive/decreased attachment to me circuits up the kazoo.  Just not AD induced in his case either.

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Re: Helen Fisher and ADs
#86: March 13, 2014, 03:43:24 PM
Interesting info. Unfortunately, Condo Carl never took AD's. He was an exercise junkie and that is supposed to lift depression. Who knows. But it does raise the serotonin and maybe acute sessions of exercise to suppress the dopamine. I shall have to research if there is a connection with too much exercise and depression.

The mind is such a terrible thing to waste.
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Re: Helen Fisher and ADs
#87: March 14, 2014, 05:55:44 AM


http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/curious/201403/what-causes-depression-myths-about-chemical-imbalances

Also check out the research of Irving Kirsch... 

I am anti-meds, in general, and very anti big pharma...  So I am biased, but I think we spend way too much time trying to "fix" ourselves with substances when we really need to fix the environment we live in, both ecologically, and sociologically... 
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Re: Helen Fisher and ADs
#88: March 14, 2014, 11:48:59 AM
Dr Gabriel Cousens is another person who is doing some really interesting work with depression.

http://www.amazon.com/Depression-free-Life-Physicians-All-Natural-5-Step/dp/0060959657/ref=la_B000APJBV4_1_6/181-8458559-2191140?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1394821882&sr=1-6

He says that we are finally accepting that our thoughts/minds affect our bodies (including our brains) - but that it is harder for people to accept that our physiology affects our brain and therefore our thoughts/minds/behaviours.

He looks at factors such as blood sugar, toxic metals, your endocrine system etc affect the body and then the brain, leading to depression.
He says that depression has many different causes.  And each individual needs to get to the bottom of what is causing it for them.  It's not a one size fits all approach.
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LOVE this, kikki, thank you for posting!  Good info AND a belly laugh. :)
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Agree. So want to share this with the headmaster at D's school, who doesn't get it at all.
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Enjoyed this Kikki.  So true and a good Monday morning laugh.
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The video is funny. Stigma of brain illness? To my knowledge there is no stigma of brain illness, but of mental illness. Brain illness tends to be associated with neurology, rather than with psychiatry/mental illness.

Or at least for me there is a difference between brain illness and mental illness. Even if, yes, mental illness has a brain illness component (or can have).

MLC for me is more of a hormonal illness. Stress is an hormone and MLC is a stress illness. So are must illness we deal with. They are all stress related.
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Quote
To my knowledge there is no stigma of brain illness, but of mental illness. Brain illness tends to be associated with neurology, rather than with psychiatry/mental illness.

I deliberately wrote the word brain rather than 'mental' to make a point.
The word mental is where the stigma comes.  I'd love to see that word changed one day, because of this.  Most people still seem to have no understanding that to have 'mental' issues, they stem from physical issues within the brain.

I thought Ruby Wax did a good job of explaining that.

Quote
MLC for me is more of a hormonal illness. Stress is an hormone and MLC is a stress illness. So are must illness we deal with. They are all stress related.
The brain is one of the organs of the body, and yes the hormonal changes and stress at mid life can affect all of the organs of the body, especially the brain and change how it functions.
Physical changes in the brain show up as changes in personality and behaviour.
(or as motor issues, memory issues etc, depending on where/how the physical problem is manifesting).

Those changes in behaviour are what the stigma is all about.  It's often challenging for others to cope with, and people do not tend to understand. 
As explained by Ruby Wax when she was shown zero support from friends when she was institutionalised.  As she said - if she had something wrong with her knee, or had given birth, she would have been inundated with support.  Instead, having something wrong with her brain function - people steered clear.

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« Last Edit: July 06, 2014, 05:18:36 PM by kikki »

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As she said - if she had something wrong with her knee, or had given birth, she would have been inundated with support.

Sadly this is true.

Yes, mental illness comes from physical issues in the brain. Those can be there since birth or come later in life.

Mentally illness can be tricky and encompass a lot of different things. In Portugal you can find patients with Down Syndrome (that is a chromosome disorder) in psychiatric hospital. They usually have a building/wards for Down Syndrome.

It is more than challenging to cope with the changes in personality/behaviour, sometimes it is impossible.

Coming from a family with mental illness from both maternal and paternal side, I know that sometimes there is little one can do. The ill person does need to go to hospital or, at least, to have appropriated medication. People with mental illness can become dangerous to themselves and others.

When that happens (and it has happened in my family) it is not possible to have them around. And, sadly, we are not yet capable of solving many of the mental illness issues.

Even if neurologist and neuroscience (unlike many psychiatrist and therapists) look for physical changes in the brain, we still do not know how to cure or mitigate many of the problems.

MLC comes with stress, stress alters the brain. MLC does not seem that difficult to stop/mitigate. Pretty much all it would require would be doctors capable of detecting the early signs and prescribe the right treatment (that does not have to be medicines).

Of course that does not allow for MLC being essentially a developmental issue and the need to be lived through. For it is not the delevolpemt issue that causes the crisis, but stress. The development issue alone would not cause it (people who cannot afford to have MLC can have all the development issues in the world still they do not have a MLC). I also see no need of anyone going  through something that could be avoided and that ends up being reduced to being scared/fear.

So, pretty much, yes, I would love some neuroscientist to come up with a way of preventing/mitigate MLC.
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http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/279338.php

Interesting research -

"The greater buzz that people with bipolar disorder get from reward is a double-edged sword.

On the one hand, it helps people strive towards their goals and ambitions, which may contribute to the success enjoyed by many people with this diagnosis.

However, it comes at a cost: these same people may be swayed more by immediate rewards when making decisions and less by the long-term consequences of these actions."
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Thanks for posting Kikki. I also went back and listened to the podcast on teens and depression up the thread today - somehow I'd missed that one the first time around.
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No wonder our MLCers look so much like people who have bipolar. Also, since you need the rush of reward more and more (and least people in MLC do), they need to strive more and more to get the kick of the reward.

And the more they do the bigger and darker their lows will be. So our MLCers keep getting themselves into more and more schemes that provide them with a high. Until the day they finally come crashing down full force.
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Thanks for posting Kikki. I also went back and listened to the podcast on teens and depression up the thread today - somehow I'd missed that one the first time around.

Glad you found that podcast iante, his research is really interesting.

Absolutely anjae.  I still wonder if replay is a major jump up on the bipolar spectrum, or whether it's something that mimics bipolar style behaviours because the same areas of the brain are being affected while in crisis?
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very early into my nightmare, a psychologist told me that my wife was probably BPD and possibly dissociative and decompensating
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Rover, with BPD do you mean borderline personality disordered?  Or bipolar?

I've had a couple of therapists say to me that my H seems bipolar with dissociative disorder.
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Amazing to see dissociation pop up.  Hoss told me before BD "I don't know when I started dissociating" (was a very weird, panicked break in a big monster session, actually, so it was really like someone else saying it).  I very much suspect dissociative fugue or something like it being involved (and that IS one of the rare side effects of the last bipolar drug he was on).
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actually he meant borderline..but her mood swings were something...but that could be emotional dysregulation
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actually he meant borderline..but her mood swings were something...but that could be emotional dysregulation

Would be interesting to know if the female MLCers show more bpd traits than male MLCers, due to the hormonal variations. Although I can confirm that male MLCers can show as much love of drama and high school mean girl antics as the women sadly.
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Re: Biochemistry, neurotransmitters and brain research
#105: August 06, 2014, 06:11:35 PM
I am a little late chiming in on this one.

So far, I've not seen a proper psychologist since my BD, but from everything I've read about MLC, childhood trauma, and personality disorders... etc... I am pinpointing my H as raised by a borderline and having dissociative identity disorder due to childhood trauma. He could be BPD, but that up to him to figure out.

He does LIE a LOT, and he always had.... and not necessary lies either...

It's just so SAD.
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Re: Biochemistry, neurotransmitters and brain research
#106: August 06, 2014, 06:18:18 PM
Hi Backtome

You've found a good place for information.
I dragged my H along to three psychologists in his first year after BD, and they were absolutely clueless about any of this.
Most MLCers are not interested in getting help while in replay, and if you manage to drag them along, as I did, they sit there and blame us for what ails them anyway.

Sounds like you've got a good idea about what has gone on/is going on for your H. Glad the information here helped.

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Re: Biochemistry, neurotransmitters and brain research
#107: August 06, 2014, 06:52:41 PM
Copying over some links from my threads:

on dopamine levels, creativity and disinhibition/impulse control -

http://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2014/07/creativity-and-dopamine-pills/374599/


on behavioral disorders and frontotemporal dementia -

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2367136/

http://www.bluefieldproject.org/news/cfr-researchers-identify-drug-that-raises-progranulin-levels

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10223261

http://www.neura.edu.au/frontier/what-frontotemporal-dementia-ftd


and here are a couple of new ones

mathematical calculations of happiness -

http://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-28592838

scientific evidence of a "risk-taking brain" -

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/7802751.stm

not MLC per se, but an interesting essay by a former partner of a bipolar sufferer -

http://aeon.co/magazine/being-human/bipolar-disorder-ravaged-my-friends-life/

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Re: Biochemistry, neurotransmitters and brain research
#108: August 06, 2014, 06:56:43 PM
So very interesting. H was diagnosed with bipolar 12 years ago because his mom was. Meds didn't work then and made him worse. We split up and I had my own QLC. He went off the meds and didn't have any issues. Became himself again and we reconciled.  Now again in 2011(when all of this started)  he was diagnosed with bipolar and PTSD. Meds have not worked since he's been on them. Matter of fact I think they have made him worse. And I have said that all along.

Lots and lots of childhood issues and combat vet. But for sure without a doubt in my mind he is MLC.

Thank God for this site and all of you here. I am so grateful!!!!
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Re: Biochemistry, neurotransmitters and brain research
#109: August 06, 2014, 07:13:33 PM
This video is pretty incredible too. I can totally relate:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Io15t9V5bXc

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Re: Biochemistry, neurotransmitters and brain research
#110: August 15, 2014, 01:18:13 AM
https://www.ted.com/talks/andres_lozano_parkinson_s_depression_and_the_switch_that_might_turn_them_off#t-146917

This is pretty amazing. Take a look at the chart at 2 mins.
Different parts of the brain do different things (which we know).
But also that brain functions are localised within circuits -

Movement
Vision
Appetite
Body image
Happiness/sadness
love/hate
avarice/generosity/empathy
drive/ambition
judgement and empathy
memory and cognition

Easy to see which parts have been ramped up, and which parts have stopped working in the crisis.
There's a part for avarice? No wonder they mostly become so greedy and self serving from a financial aspect.
And there's a love/hate part.  Wonder if that's why we suddenly are so repellant to them?

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Re: Biochemistry, neurotransmitters and brain research
#111: August 15, 2014, 05:07:05 PM
Thank you for the links, iamnottheenemy and Backtome.

But also that brain functions are localised within circuits -

Yes they are. In the Neurons, Synapses and Brains course we had to learn Rall Cable Theory and several other electric related things. It was a very tough course. At least for me, a creature from the humanities, it was.

We also talked about deep brain stimulation and had the videos/charts to see which part would light.

There is far more than just brain chemicals, the whole electric part, how it rightly (or wrongly) wired, how it is lubricated, how it is conducting, is very important.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wilfrid_Rall - Wilfrid Rall, the neuroscientist who come up with Rall Cable Theory.
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Re: Biochemistry, neurotransmitters and brain research
#112: August 15, 2014, 06:28:26 PM
not MLC per se, but an interesting essay by a former partner of a bipolar sufferer -

http://aeon.co/magazine/being-human/bipolar-disorder-ravaged-my-friends-life/

Is it just me or Hank, the guy in that article, did in fact had a MLC (that someone took for bipolar, since they can be very similar)?

"That was the first signal that he was unravelling, seized by a mania that would shatter every mooring to the life he had built over 58 years. Within six months, he would lose his job and blow his retirement savings on fancy guitars, $400 shirts from Saks (no more 75-per-cent-off sales at Macy’s!), and catering for parties no one attended. He would alienate friends and agitate neighbours and, battered by the storm in his brain, sway on the precipice of homelessness."

He had an episode of mania at 58, after problems with his job. That is exactly the type of stuff that happens to our MLCers. Bipolar is just a little more well known than MLC.
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Re: Biochemistry, neurotransmitters and brain research
#113: August 15, 2014, 07:06:09 PM
Very interesting story on bipolar. I've got my thinking cap on. So many similarities.
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Re: Biochemistry, neurotransmitters and brain research
#114: August 16, 2014, 02:23:57 AM
It is an interesting comparison.  No OW though.  ?
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Re: Biochemistry, neurotransmitters and brain research
#115: August 16, 2014, 08:04:11 AM
I know in a lot of bipolar mania, there will be OPs.  I read on one site there is a 90% divorce rate for bipolar sufferers, and there was never a standing forum, but several 'divorce recovery' forums I found on those sites. 

Could be in this case either the author didn't know about any OW, or he could have been one of them that didn't go that route.  I think if my H truly is bipolar, that his mania prior was expressed with illogical spending to alleviate pain, and alcohol use.  I don't really suspect any other OW. 

But having said that...I agree with Anjae, that this is another MLC case.  It would be so incredibly rare, if not impossible, for a mood disorder to hit that late in life so randomly.  I do think we'll find MLC is somewhere on this spectrum someday, but I am fairly secure that it's a separate thing.

But also - I don't tell people that.  After I found this site I would sometimes tell people, "It's MLC!" and they would giggle, and say, "No, that's not what that is," due to the preconceived definition MLC carries with it.  But if I say, "bipolar," the same people want to pray for us both.  I go with that one publicly. :)
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Re: Biochemistry, neurotransmitters and brain research
#116: August 16, 2014, 08:25:15 AM
I find it so strange that people are willing to accept the diagnoses and just say "oh well, that's the way they are." I don't agree because it can be treated and people can live normal lives. I feel my H uses his diagnosis as a crutch to say and do whatever he wants without consequences.

If I would not have found this site I would not have believed that H was having an MLC. But the more similarities in the stories, the more I believe.

The things H has told me match so many of the same things I have read here. Too many similarities to not believe it is MLC.
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Re: Biochemistry, neurotransmitters and brain research
#117: August 16, 2014, 10:47:06 AM
It would be so incredibly rare, if not impossible, for a mood disorder to hit that late in life so randomly.  I do think we'll find MLC is somewhere on this spectrum someday, but I am fairly secure that it's a separate thing.

Impossible it would not be since mood disorder can appear at any age (personality ones can not, at least to the extent of our current knowledge), but the guys story is text book MLC.

Not all MLCers, even with manic episodes, have OW/OM. And like you said, there could had been one, but people were not aware of it.

MLC, especially the high energy one, does mimic a lot of bipolar. But would we put MLC in mood or personality disorders? Mood, I would say. Mood disorders alter the personality, but they are not personality disorders.

I'm fairly certain that in the future there will be a way of treat/mitigate MLC. When? No idea.

Yes, if we say our spouse was diagnosed bipolar everyone is nice and sympathetic, if we say MLC, not so much. After all, MLC is a 20 years blonde bimbo, a red convertible and it lasts 6 months.  ::)
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Re: Biochemistry, neurotransmitters and brain research
#118: August 16, 2014, 12:41:34 PM
Agree with you, Ready2 and Anjae. I have taken to telling people that H is "undiagnosed and untreated bipolar" 'cause that seems more easily understood than "H is having an MLC."
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Re: Biochemistry, neurotransmitters and brain research
#119: August 16, 2014, 01:05:37 PM
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Not all MLCers, even with manic episodes, have OW/OM. And like you said, there could had been one, but people were not aware of it.

It's rare though. It could very well be that the writer either chose to leave that piece of information out, or didn't know about anyone else.

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MLC, especially the high energy one, does mimic a lot of bipolar. But would we put MLC in mood or personality disorders? Mood, I would say. Mood disorders alter the personality, but they are not personality disorders.
Agree with the mood disorder

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Yes, if we say our spouse was diagnosed bipolar everyone is nice and sympathetic, if we say MLC, not so much. After all, MLC is a 20 years blonde bimbo, a red convertible and it lasts 6 months.  ::)

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I have taken to telling people that H is "undiagnosed and untreated bipolar" 'cause that seems more easily understood than "H is having an MLC."
I say the same thing now. 
Started by saying it was depression, but people wondered why he could keep working as the assumption was that he would be slumped on the sofa the whole time. 
Bipolar does seem to be a little more understood and I get interrogated less by others that way. (always a bonus).
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Re: Biochemistry, neurotransmitters and brain research
#120: August 16, 2014, 01:55:35 PM
It's funny, when I chose my screen name I had no idea that bipolar figured so largely in this.  It was just something that I always suspected that my husband had but of course he would never see anyone or admit that there might be a problem.  It was just drinking, not drinking, his parents, his financial situation, his job, me...
Very interesting thread.
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Re: Biochemistry, neurotransmitters and brain research
#121: August 16, 2014, 03:14:02 PM
It also depends what one calls an episode of mania. My wallower cousin had mania. But he never left, he never had OW, he never got into any replay behaviour.

At a point my wallower cousin was alternating between low and manic enough for my friend who his a psychiatrist to label him bipolar (I knew it was MLC, but let it pass).

To clarify, I never told anyone that Mr J is bipolar. Early on everyone knew he had gotten involved with OW1, later too many years went by. All I recall saying early on was: no idea what is going on with him.
 
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Re: Biochemistry, neurotransmitters and brain research
#122: August 21, 2014, 02:09:20 PM
http://www.iflscience.com/brain/science-depression

Short video on the current science of depression.
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Re: Biochemistry, neurotransmitters and brain research
#123: August 21, 2014, 05:50:58 PM
Small hippocampus = less memory, less emotions. Stress affects hippocampus, stress is one of the main sources of depression, as well of MLC. If not the main for MLC. The Amygdala in my view also plays a role in depression/MLC. 

The little video made my day. It confirms that depression has biological causes with psychological and social implications. Same goes for bipolar (depression with mania). And for me same goes for MLC.   

But science show us leads to, MLC has biological causes, so it can be mitigated, cured, prevent. No need for us, or the MLCer to deal with the mess.

Now, if only we found something similar to the Ice Bucket Challenge to draw attention, and money to MLC and and support MLCers families during this ordeal.  ::)
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Re: Biochemistry, neurotransmitters and brain research
#124: August 21, 2014, 06:26:25 PM
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But science show us leads to, MLC has biological causes, so it can be mitigated, cured, prevent. No need for us, or the MLCer to deal with the mess.

Now, if only we found something similar to the Ice Bucket Challenge to draw attention, and money to MLC and and support MLCers families during this ordeal.  ::)

 :D  Amen!  To all of this!!
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Re: Biochemistry, neurotransmitters and brain research
#125: August 21, 2014, 07:53:33 PM
Good summary of depression.  Thanks Kikki.
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Re: Biochemistry, neurotransmitters and brain research
#126: August 21, 2014, 08:00:25 PM
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But science show us leads to, MLC has biological causes, so it can be mitigated, cured, prevent. No need for us, or the MLCer to deal with the mess.

Now, if only we found something similar to the Ice Bucket Challenge to draw attention, and money to MLC and and support MLCers families during this ordeal.  ::)

 :D  Amen!  To all of this!!

I am liking that idea Anjae :)
Lets get our thinking caps on.

Some of the comments below the video are interesting
Depression is waaaaaaay more complex than shown in the video.
I was in depression for 5 years, and it seems that i won the battle.
And by battle, i really mean battle.

Depression. Most of you, who never had suffered under it won't understand what it does, but more importantly, how it feels.

Let me explain it to you, so that you'll understand it.

Think of a daemon (=depression) housing inside you. That daemon is controlling your thoughts, and the way you handle things.
The daemon wants you to do bad things, you can call it "self-destruction-mode", until you're dead, or winning the fight.

You feel bad, the daemon feels good then.
Because of that self-destruction you lose your friends, which will make you feel worse, which in fact will make the daemon feel better and stronger, and you do other stuff, which are bad for you, until, you're killing yourself.
So it is a spiral, and it is really hard to get out.


Has anyone watched the two part mini series on INXS?  The second part was on last night.  Nothing to do with MLC but it clearly shows how the lead singer, Michael Hutchence, went from sweet guy to raging, self destructive mode following an attack when he suffered a broken skull in the fall.
These sorts of things can help people understand the personality changes that can come with brain changes.
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Re: Biochemistry, neurotransmitters and brain research
#127: August 21, 2014, 08:23:08 PM
Shouldn’t a demon inside your head be schizophrenia?  Do not recall any demon inside my head when I had my physical exhaustion breakdown that lead to depression. All I recall was the lack of energy and will to do anything. Nothing of that you should smash the car against a tree.

And same for Mr J when he had is two physical exhaustion breakdowns. Nothing telling him to put and end to his life. He also had no energy. No idea how he manages High Replay energy nor where it come from. His normal depression mode is flat.

But a male friend of mine who had (think he still is having, but calmed down a bit) his MLC, was always taking of the demons inside. And of how everything inside of him was in flames and turmoil.

Did not saw the mini series on INXS. about But didn’t Michael Hutchence had problems with drinking and drugs? Alcohol, drugs, any addiction change the brain, often leading to mood/personality alterations.

Think I do not want to see the brains of our MLCers. High levels of out of control hormones, alcohol, drugs for some, other addictions. Is it really possible for those MLCer in very long high replay activities to have their brains back to normal? Couldn’t some of them really become addicts for life?
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Re: Biochemistry, neurotransmitters and brain research
#128: August 21, 2014, 08:31:00 PM
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Has anyone watched the two part mini series on INXS?  The second part was on last night.  Nothing to do with MLC but it clearly shows how the lead singer, Michael Hutchence, went from sweet guy to raging, self destructive mode following an attack when he suffered a broken skull in the fall.
These sorts of things can help people understand the personality changes that can come with brain changes.

Is this "Never Tear Us Apart" or something else?  I'm madly googling it now. LOL  You don't have to tell me twice to watch this!
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Re: Biochemistry, neurotransmitters and brain research
#129: August 21, 2014, 08:37:37 PM
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Has anyone watched the two part mini series on INXS?  The second part was on last night.  Nothing to do with MLC but it clearly shows how the lead singer, Michael Hutchence, went from sweet guy to raging, self destructive mode following an attack when he suffered a broken skull in the fall.
These sorts of things can help people understand the personality changes that can come with brain changes.

Is this "Never Tear Us Apart" or something else?  I'm madly googling it now. LOL  You don't have to tell me twice to watch this!

It is :)
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Re: Biochemistry, neurotransmitters and brain research
#130: August 21, 2014, 08:43:57 PM
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Shouldn’t a demon inside your head be schizophrenia?  Do not recall any demon inside my head when I had my physical exhaustion breakdown that lead to depression. All I recall was the lack of energy and will to do anything. Nothing of that you should smash the car against a tree.

Don't forget the difference between overt and covert depression too.
Not sure, but I do know that Bursty talked about the voices in his head, telling him to do destructive things at BD. He said a battle was going on in his head.
A year ago, he talked about his awareness of his self destruction, and self sabotage.
He said he felt powerless to stop.

I have read of it in agitated depression, and you can also get psychosis with depression they now think. No doubt, the descriptors will keep changing.


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And same for Mr J when he had is two physical exhaustion breakdowns. Nothing telling him to put and end to his life. He also had no energy. No idea how he manages High Replay energy nor where it come from. His normal depression mode is flat.

This replay is something else, isn't it.  Nuts.
I've asked Bursty once if he has considered taking his life, since this began, he said no.  But who would know.

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Did not saw the mini series on INXS. about But didn’t Michael Hutchence had problems with drinking and drugs? Alcohol, drugs, any addiction change the brain, often leading to mood/personality alterations.
He did, but they really ramped up after the head injury apparently.  Became really out of control.

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Is it really possible for those MLCer in very long high replay activities to have their brains back to normal? Couldn’t some of them really become addicts for life?
This thought worries me too.  How to go back to 'normal' after this?  No idea.  :-\
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Re: Biochemistry, neurotransmitters and brain research
#131: August 21, 2014, 11:54:52 PM
I've had that thought many times about how my H could ever go back to normal as he's been like this for so long now and says he now likes who he's become!

After a little over 4 years - he's now worse than ever! The previous year it had all seemed to be calming down and less energy but like I said now he seems in overdrive!

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Re: Biochemistry, neurotransmitters and brain research
#132: August 22, 2014, 04:49:55 PM
Think there is a difference in being in high energy MLC for years and spend those years heavily drinking/doing drugs. It is the second type of things that can provide a life long addiction. We have no way of knowing if a MLCer, will, or will not, become an addict (a real one, not just MLC one).

Yes, Kikki, the psychotic episodes. Some MLCers have them and they are not pretty to watch.
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Re: Biochemistry, neurotransmitters and brain research
#133: August 22, 2014, 04:52:18 PM
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Think there is a difference in being in high energy MLC for years and spend those years heavily drinking/doing drugs. It is the second type of things that can provide a life long addiction. We have no way of knowing if a MLCer, will, or will not, become an addict (a real one, not just MLC one).

I was thinking more, because of the longevity of the MLC depression, what long term effects may that have on the brain?
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Re: Biochemistry, neurotransmitters and brain research
#134: August 22, 2014, 06:11:46 PM
Not MLC or depression, but autism.  They are discovering that normal synaptic pruning does not occur in children with autism.

http://www.iflscience.com/brain/children-autism-have-extra-synapses-their-brains
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Re: Biochemistry, neurotransmitters and brain research
#135: August 22, 2014, 06:27:29 PM
I was thinking more on the addiction a MLCer may gain. The long term depression may (wiil?) have effects on the brain, but once their crisis and crisis behaviours are over, if they chose a healthier life, they may be mitigated/improved/cured.

It is the addictions I worry about. If it passes from MLC to real life long condition the MLCer is in real troubles. Of course the longer they use those substances/things (gambling is not a substance but it is one of the worst, if not the worst addiction), the more hooked they will be, the more damage brain and body will suffer.

Add the depression (depression is always part of addiction) and a very ugly cocktail is in place.
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Re: Biochemistry, neurotransmitters and brain research
#136: August 22, 2014, 06:33:47 PM
Yes, I see what you mean Anjae.  It is a concern.
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Re: Biochemistry, neurotransmitters and brain research
#137: August 22, 2014, 07:08:36 PM
Can't think of anything in life that wouldn't have biological causes; we are after all a $6 baggie of chemicals  ;D  So MLC is biological. Also psychological (since biology becomes electricity becomes thought); and also spiritual (for those illuminated by spirit).

But if you've ever seen a heroin addict going dry and panicking beyond breath; if you've ever seen a meth head scrabbling vainly for a single thought in the neurotransmitter void that is left of her mind; hell, if you've ever seen a beatnick after a thick night, wondering if he still has the motivation to blink... then I suspect you've seen the wellspring of MLC.  The same synaptic patterns that give rise to addiction and burn-out seem to be present during MLC, in a rather different form. I wonder if this means an addict doesn't need the drugs, just the synapses?? Hmmm.
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Re: Biochemistry, neurotransmitters and brain research
#138: August 22, 2014, 07:29:35 PM
Always love your scientific crossed with thought provoking linguistic views osb :)

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So MLC is biological. Also psychological (since biology becomes electricity becomes thought); and also spiritual (for those illuminated by spirit).

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I wonder if this means an addict doesn't need the drugs, just the synapses?? Hmmm.

interesting thought.
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Re: Biochemistry, neurotransmitters and brain research
#139: August 22, 2014, 07:34:48 PM
Minus the beatnick (unless for beatnick you mean drunk) I've seen them. Scary. And the meth empty brains ones were quite young.

Just the synapases? And what would the addict/MLCer synapses be passing if not the drug/high effect? Before they start taking drugs the addicts have synapses but the drugs seems to be what drives them nuts.

Or do you mean that addicts/MLCers synapses are different from non addicts/MLCers even before they start taking drugs/have MLC?
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Re: Biochemistry, neurotransmitters and brain research
#140: August 22, 2014, 07:37:40 PM
Interesting.

I told H on many occasion that he acted like a drug addict. Running from thing to thing looking for the emotional high so he could just feel something. And then on to the substance abuse(drinking and pot) to make him numb.  I have learned his patterns and they last around 3 months. Round and round he goes.

So in my thoughts I come up with this:  They cause all kinds of destruction to get their emotional high and when that wears off they feel guilty so they reach for something to make them numb. Depression sets in from the substance abuse and then they seek the emotional high again.
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Re: Biochemistry, neurotransmitters and brain research
#141: August 22, 2014, 07:50:41 PM
Just the synapases? And what would the addict/MLCer synapses be passing if not the drug/high effect? Before they start taking drugs the addicts have synapses but the drugs seems to be what drives them nuts.
Or do you mean that addicts/MLCers synapses are different from non addicts/MLCers even before they start taking drugs/have MLC?

Sorry, I was abstruse. We all have the same starting set of neurotransmitters; certain drugs cause certain synapses to fire in parts of our brains. Especially in the affective parts of the brain, the amygdala and other places murky. And the faster those synapses fire, the less neurotransmitters they can build up again; the more and more drug required to get the original high (there are also receptor reasons for that, yeah pharmacology's complex  ;) ) and finally the blank stare of the burned-out druggie, sans any neurotransmitters to rub together, lacking the motivation to even get up to pee.

My H always warned me he had "an addictive personality" - something he thought he'd inherited from his dad and grandfather (the bottle). All the evidence I could see was a complete inability to stop himself from eating his way through an entire box of cookies after opening the packet! (...seriously, I had to hide 'em)

Then came the obsessive mountain climbing. Extreme exercise does provide an endorphin high, comparable to drugs. Chasing the dragon, ruining his body and flogging his mind. Not much different from addicts I've seen. At the end of each cycle came a burn-out that scared me. This was my H's MLC. That's why this analogy comes to me. Maybe some people are mentally more susceptible to MLC, like they're more susceptible to the lure of the bottle (or the cookie jar  :D ).
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Re: Biochemistry, neurotransmitters and brain research
#142: August 22, 2014, 07:54:52 PM
OSB-
Your H sounds exactly like my H. Throughout all of this one of his obsessions he goes back to is the extreme exercise. EVERYTHING he does is to the extreme until he burns out.
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Re: Biochemistry, neurotransmitters and brain research
#143: August 22, 2014, 08:29:45 PM
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Maybe some people are mentally more susceptible to MLC, like they're more susceptible to the lure of the bottle (or the cookie jar  :D ).

I do think so.  Probably from a combination of genetics and environmental factors growing up.
It's just so frustrating that this isn't an acknowledged 'thing', although Robert Sapolsky makes mention of it in one of his talks. 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NOAgplgTxfc

can't remember if it's this one on depression, or more likely one of his more general talks on biology.

Wish someone would fund some research.
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TRIGGERS - Why they occur...an interesting article
#144: September 12, 2014, 06:49:21 AM
https://www.affairrecovery.com/newsletter/founder/infidelity-betrayal-the-number-one-obstacle-to-recovery?utm_source=Article+of+the+Week&utm_campaign=efce1b072e-aotw_09_11_2014&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_ba782628b7-efce1b072e-312831325

By Rick Reynolds:
What is the most vexing issue when recovering from a betrayal? It’s the ongoing emotional flooding resulting from the trauma of betrayal. Long after a couple commits to work on the marriage, the fire breathing trauma dragon continues to raise its ugly head and scorch the progress a couple makes. I call it a dragon because this type of trauma appears as if from nowhere only to ruthlessly attack you. This dragon of trauma is difficult to describe, so for those around you who don’t know this kind of pain, it can seem imaginary. For you though, it feels so big and so impossible to manage that recovery feels utterly hopeless. 

Several weeks ago I mentioned how Dopamine creates an intense need, similar to a drug addiction, which tells the brain you must have that pleasurable experience to survive. Those who are addicted and those who are traumatized are influenced by the same primitive part the brain, the amygdala.

The amygdala is in charge of our fight or flight mechanism; it functions much like the brain of a reptile. If you’ve ever owned a reptile you know they are incapable of relationship. They are about two things: need and feed. If an alligator isn’t hungry and feels no sense of danger, it’s safe to approach that reptile. If that alligator is hungry or senses danger, however, they will attack even someone who has been feeding it for years.

The amygdala stores memories and images and constantly watches for anything that may pose a threat. Unfortunately we don’t know what has been imprinted as a trigger for the fight or flight response. Let’s break down how your brain processes a potential threat using the example of seeing a snake on the ground. First, the amygdala, which is constantly on guard, triggers the sympathetic nervous system (the emotional accelerator) and in 1/200 of a second adrenaline is released, your heart rate jumps to over 100, and you leap out of harm’s way.

Next, the pre-frontal cortex analyzes the type of snake to determine whether it poses a risk. If it perceives no danger it triggers the parasympathetic nervous system, which operates as the brakes on our emotional system. This alarm system is crucial for the survival of our species. What would happen if instead of immediately reacting we were to stand there trying to discern the type of snake and whether it poses a risk? We’d have two fang marks on our leg long before we could determine whether we should jump out of the way. At other times anger, which is a part of the fight response, is critical if we are to survive. Reacting and then determining the potential risk significantly increases our odds of survival in the wild, but it’s not always so helpful in day-to-day life.

Dynamic in nature, the amygdala is constantly adapting to its present environment. Circumstances where there is fear, pain, shame, guilt, disrespect, insults, physical danger, and/or injury are just a few of the life experiences that can be marked by the amygdala as something to watch for in order to survive. Generally our survival system tends to hum along just fine unless we experience trauma.

The amygdala, when triggered, stomps on our emotional accelerator causing us to react with either anger or by running away. The pre-frontal cortex evaluates the situation to determine if there is current danger, and if none exists it slams on our emotional brakes. This system is dependent on the pre-frontal cortex being able to make sense of what is happening so it can send the other parts of the brain the appropriate signals to calm you down.

Here’s where the severity of this process sets in: severe trauma overloads the pre-frontal cortex and effectively cuts the brake line to the parasympathetic nervous system, leaving us like a car with the accelerator stuck on the floorboard and no brakes. The severe trauma of infidelity more often than not produces this effect. Our amygdala, always on watch, will spot a reminder of the infidelity and trigger the sympathetic nervous system, setting off overwhelming emotional flooding. The trauma of the betrayal makes it impossible for that person to regain control in that moment. Without a plan to eventually shift focus and defuse these reminders, the future of the marriage and potential recovery is not only painful and overwhelming, it’s also uncertain.

Over the next few weeks we will explore the difficulties created by Post Traumatic Infidelity Syndrome. In my opinion this is the most significant obstacle for couples in recovery. It is at the root of emotional outbursts, hopelessness, avoidance, emotional and sexual constriction, hyper vigilance, depression, emotional abuse, physical abuse, verbal abuse, and all irrational conversations.

Knowledge is power. Understanding the realities of the trauma caused by infidelity, and what can be done to heal the trauma caused by infidelity, can equip you to move forward in recovery.
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Re: TRIGGERS - Why they occur...an interesting article
#145: September 12, 2014, 07:23:10 AM
Great article.  Thanks for posting it.
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Re: TRIGGERS - Why they occur...an interesting article
#146: September 12, 2014, 07:50:48 AM
   This may be something I will have to have H read eventually.   It will help with the why can't you just let it go statement I know he will make. 
   I think I will print it out and saveit in a folder.  Thanks for posting it. :D
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Re: Biochemistry, neurotransmitters and brain research
#147: September 13, 2014, 03:29:01 PM
Stillpraying, I've merged your thread with the article with this thread about Biochemistry, neurotransmitters and brain research. The article your posted talsk about the  amygdala and other neuro/brain issues and it will be a good add to this ongoing thread.
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Re: Biochemistry, neurotransmitters and brain research
#148: September 13, 2014, 03:35:25 PM
medicalnewstoday.com recently posted a research article linking sleep apnea with brain changes. Think about it- mid-life, weight gain, airway obstruction, sleep apnea---> MLC.
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Re: Biochemistry, neurotransmitters and brain research
#149: September 13, 2014, 03:42:20 PM
Not necessarily, FTT. Some MLCers were quite young when they left/at BD. And some were quite slim.

Depression ---- > MLC is more likely. Of course many other factors could be at play, but the two number one seem to be depression and excessive levels of stress.
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Re: Biochemistry, neurotransmitters and brain research
#150: September 13, 2014, 03:51:33 PM
Excellent article. This has come up in my PTSD counselling as well as H's.
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Re: Biochemistry, neurotransmitters and brain research
#151: September 13, 2014, 04:03:16 PM
I firmly believe BD is when there are enormous changes in the brain of a MLCer.

What causes these changes?  As we've talked about on many occasions, genetics and FOO issues (environment) seems to play a part in how a child's brain becomes wired and how it handles stress, but I'm also reading now about the enormous difficulties we humans are having coping with the effects of environmental factors.

The effects of blue light from technology and radiation from air travel, cellphone, computer usage, wifi, modern offices etc  has on our biochemistry seems to be vast - changing the way the gut works (amongst other body systems), which directly affects the brain and our hormonal control systems.
Add the highly stressed lives people now live, the increase of sugar/carbs in their diets, and changes in our circadian rhythms, I wonder if this explains the increasing volume of people suffering the perfect storm as they age.

My own mum used to always say she wasn't surprised that my MLCer spun off due to his stressful work schedule, long distance plane travel, cellphone usage and use of computers for work etc.  My mother has always been a bit ahead of her time, and now it seems once again, the science might be catching up with her.

I know all MLCers are not caught up in high tech environments, but there are many that are.  For instance Anjae, Mr J with his DJing won't necessarily be doing his brain any favours by being in that nightclub environment with  a sea of man-made Electro Magnetic Fields from electrified music and performances.

I hold my breath every time my MLCer takes a very long haul flight. It's always uglier than usual for months afterwards.
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Re: Biochemistry, neurotransmitters and brain research
#152: September 13, 2014, 04:38:21 PM
Prior to the type of technology we have today you would have coal and smog. Think London back in the day. And there has been nuclear facilities all over the world for decades. Those, and many other factors, have long affected our biochemistry. In fact, pretty much everything affects our biochemistry.

And, of course, ambient, as in FOO, or at a later date. I'm not so certain all brain (and other) changes our MLCer suffered come from (or solely from) childhood. they could come from adolescence. Or from early adulthood. They could add to previous causes, or just come at one to those times.

I know all MLCers are not caught up in high tech environments, but there are many that are.  For instance Anjae, Mr J with his DJing won't necessarily be doing his brain any favours by being in that nightclub environment with  a sea of man-made Electro Magnetic Fields from electrified music and performances.

I'm positive that all that clubbing is not doing Mr J brain any favours. And not only because of the Electro Magnetic Fields from electrified music. There is also gigantic sleep deprivation (Mr J has a MLC day job. He often sleeps 5-3 hours). And often too hot room and until very recently, smoke filled.

Mr J brain, lungs, ears, liver (because of too much gin) are all suffering with his clubbing lifestyle.
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Re: Biochemistry, neurotransmitters and brain research
#153: September 13, 2014, 05:11:19 PM
Quote
I'm not so certain all brain (and other) changes our MLCer suffered come from (or solely from) childhood. they could come from adolescence. Or from early adulthood. They could add to previous causes, or just come at one to those times.

I would agree with you, but there certainly seems to be an accumulative effect. 
An already stressed (non resilient brain) may not recognise further decline due to environment/lifestyle factors and may not seek help, for instance.
An already stressed brain doesn't handle further stress as well as a brain that wasn't exposed to that early stress. 
(this is where epigenetics comes in).

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There is also gigantic sleep deprivation (Mr J has a MLC day job. He often sleeps 5-3 hours)
This ties in exactly with the research I was reading about how incredibly disruptive to our bodies/minds any disruption to our normal circadian rhythm is(electric lights, technology where we stay up late receiving blue light, air travel which disrupts through jet lag - one direction around the earth is even more disruptive than going the other way around due to the earth's rotation.)

And yes - add further toxins which humans often think will help them to feel better - smoking, alcohol, poor diet etc - and it's not a recipe for wellness.
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Re: Biochemistry, neurotransmitters and brain research
#154: September 13, 2014, 05:51:59 PM
I would agree with you, but there certainly seems to be an accumulative effect. 
An already stressed (non resilient brain) may not recognise further decline due to environment/lifestyle factors and may not seek help, for instance.
An already stressed brain doesn't handle further stress as well as a brain that wasn't exposed to that early stress. 
(this is where epigenetics comes in).

True. But we do know if in every case the accumulation of stress stat in childhood or later. I'll use myself as an example. No childhood stress. But when was 13 many things changed and several stressful factors arrived.

And since, of course, it keep accumulating. Probably having its peak in the months right before and right after Mr J left. Maybe that is why I did not deal so great with things when Mr J. Usually I would I deal with things in a pragmatic, cool way. I did not.

My circadian rhythm has long been disrupted because I do night shifts. Now looking after grandmother, before because I prefer to work by night when there was peace and quiet.

But there is still a difference between being at home working at night and clubbing.

None of our MLCers is doing any good to their wellness. They a gigantic ball of stress coupled with a million other issues. If only they would calm down and stop the crazy replay behaviour.  ::)
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Re: Biochemistry, neurotransmitters and brain research
#155: September 13, 2014, 05:54:37 PM
H said recently : I just don't know what will make me relaxed, content, and happy. No matter what I can't find happiness.
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Re: Biochemistry, neurotransmitters and brain research
#156: September 13, 2014, 06:07:30 PM
H said recently : I just don't know what will make me relaxed, content, and happy. No matter what I can't find happiness.

Think it would require the depression to go and for your husband (and all our MLCers) to find meaning/purpose in their life. They are pretty much people adrift.
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Re: Biochemistry, neurotransmitters and brain research
#157: September 13, 2014, 06:11:36 PM
YES! Thank you Anjae..."people adrift" TRUTH TRUTH TRUTH...and their lives prove it!
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Re: Biochemistry, neurotransmitters and brain research
#158: September 14, 2014, 12:43:34 AM
This ties in exactly with the research I was reading about how incredibly disruptive to our bodies/minds any disruption to our normal circadian rhythm is(electric lights, technology where we stay up late receiving blue light, air travel which disrupts through jet lag - one direction around the earth is even more disruptive than going the other way around due to the earth's rotation.)

I remember reading nearly the same thing about travel across time zones being a trigger for bipolar manic episodes (Health Central, "Bipolar Disorder")
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Re: Biochemistry, neurotransmitters and brain research
#159: September 14, 2014, 04:36:56 AM
This link explains why/how we all have bonded so deeply without even always being in physical proximity:

http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/282473.php
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Re: Biochemistry, neurotransmitters and brain research
#160: September 14, 2014, 11:43:33 AM
Wow, absolutely fascinating article, FTT.
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Re: Biochemistry, neurotransmitters and brain research
#161: September 14, 2014, 01:09:37 PM
I'm just recalling hs stress levels before he left, they were sky high. He had so much on his plate and even said "I can handle work, I can handle being a dad but I can't handle you!" Some of his friends had advised him not to do anything until he had finished a project he was working on which was stressing him out. He was waking every single night many times a night, he was prone to illnesses and infections, was tired, moody, snappy and angry. He was smoking and drinking.
When he left he said he was sleeping better, he was running and eating healthily. He didn't get so ill. He gave up smoking and drinking. He was free of responsibility of our small kids and I guess the infatuation hormones kicked in. But he stopped getting illnesses and was sleeping again. This I find tricky to understand, it was like I was the stressor, got rid of me and so got rid of the symptoms of stress/depression.
However a year on and he said he had to move in with ow full time and out of his office because his inability to switch off from work was proving detrimental to his health. Fast forward another year and he has recently told me he has collapsed at work twice in the last few months due to stress (he reckons it's too much driving but I would say it's his lifestyle). Could the infatuation hormones no longer be providing an energetic high so the stress hormones are able to dominate again?
I think the faster and higher they fly the further they fall but I think the fall will have to come from an external source for my H, loss of money so his lifestyle suffers or loss of ow, work and ow are his addictions. Getting rid of the work could cause ow to disappear, no more money or influence. I imagine this would plunge him into a depression, both lines of addiction cut off. 
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Re: Biochemistry, neurotransmitters and brain research
#162: September 14, 2014, 01:14:33 PM
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Could the infatuation hormones no longer be providing an energetic high so the stress hormones are able to dominate again?

Yes, absolutely, the infatuation hormones only superficially covers up what ails them for so long. And then they're back to square one, but in the middle on an enormous mess of their own creation.

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Re: Biochemistry, neurotransmitters and brain research
#163: September 14, 2014, 04:13:10 PM
The infatuation hormones cover other issues but they do not work the same way in every person.

Mr J never sleep better since he left. He sleeps even less. He also start drinking and keeps drinking, his stress level and workaholicness never went away. Maybe the infatuation hormones never worked for Mr J, so he needs all that clubbing to numb himself.

In our husband it does seem that the infatuation hormones stop working and now he had to deal with the consequences.

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Re: Biochemistry, neurotransmitters and brain research
#164: October 15, 2014, 04:54:52 PM
Three links to interesting articles. The first link is in portuguese (google translator is your friend  :) ) and is about portuguese scientist that found an enzyme that battles depression. The second and third are about Alzheimer's. One about brain scan for early detection and prevention and the other about  recreating brain cells to research the disease.

http://boasnoticias.pt/noticias_Portugu%C3%AAs-descobre-enzima-que-combate-depress%C3%A3o_21046.html?page=0 - Português descobre enzima que combate depressão

http://www.latimes.com/science/sciencenow/la-sci-sn-alzheimers-brain-biomarker-radiology-20141007-story.html  - Radiologists use MRIs to find biomarker for Alzheimer's disease

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/10/13/science/researchers-replicate-alzheimers-brain-cells-in-a-petri-dish.html?smid=fb-nytimes&smtyp=cur&bicmp=AD&bicmlukp=WT.mc_id&bicmst=1409232722000&bicmet=1419773522000&_r=0 - Breakthrough Replicates Human Brain Cells for Alzheimer's Research

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Re: Biochemistry, neurotransmitters and brain research
#165: October 17, 2014, 06:15:49 PM
Interesting, thanks Anjae.
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Re: Biochemistry, neurotransmitters and brain research
#166: October 18, 2014, 12:51:48 AM
What I found interesting in the Portuguese one is that it is physical exercise that releases the enzyme that combats depression-causing stress.
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Re: Biochemistry, neurotransmitters and brain research
#167: October 18, 2014, 04:10:40 PM
Yes, that is what they say. But, like with all science things, one thing alone will not do it and it is all still being under study. However I think it may help.

However, for MLC, I'm not sure it applies. Some of our MLCer have a lot of physical activity and it does not make their covert depression to go away.
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Re: Biochemistry, neurotransmitters and brain research
#168: October 19, 2014, 05:52:35 AM
Wow- this might explain why the female LBS gets more practical and compassionate as the MLC goes on and why the MLCer behavior spirals to ever greater heights of weirdness.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/10/19/opinion/sunday/are-women-better-decision-makers.html?action=click&contentCollection=Travel&module=MostEmailed&version=Full&region=Marginalia&src=me&pgtype=article
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Re: Biochemistry, neurotransmitters and brain research
#169: October 19, 2014, 07:23:21 AM
Well that's mighty interesting FTT.
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Re: Biochemistry, neurotransmitters and brain research
#170: October 19, 2014, 05:41:52 PM
FTT That NYT article is in line with the studies on wall street (and other) men who do fine for the first years but end up costing more in the long run because they loose the ability to access risk.

But if women are better at taking risks and make more sound judgements then how does OW fits in? They are women taking risks, being very angry at the LBS, etc. Or does it mean that the OW is really the one making decisions because the MLCer is too messed up?

To be fair I do not believe women are any better than men to handle small stress situations. I know too many female family, work and friends who make a mess of small stress and do not know how to handle big stress. And if you look at countries run by women you will not found much difference from the ones run by men. Margaret Tatcher took more risks than most men would, Angela Merkel put southern Europe under an iron fist and only thinks of profit, etc.
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Re: Biochemistry, neurotransmitters and brain research
#171: October 19, 2014, 10:28:29 PM
http://www.drjoecarver.com/clients/49355/File/Chemical%20Imbalance.html

Just bumping with this because it's a solid article to start learning about imbalances, especially enlightening is the section on Serotonin.  Three years in and this is still the article I refer to most commonly.

When Serotonin is severely low, you will experience some if not all of the following:

· Thinking speed will increase. You will have difficulty controlling your own thoughts. The brain will focus on torturing memories and you’ll find it difficult to stop thinking about these uncomfortable memories or images.

· You’ll become emotionally numb! You wouldn’t know how you feel about your life, marriage, job, family, future, significant other, etc. It’s as though all feelings have been turned off. Asked by others how you feel – your response might be “I don’t know!”

· Outbursts will begin, typically two types. Crying outbursts will surface, suddenly crying without much warning. Behavioral outbursts will also surface. If you break the lead in a pencil, you throw the pencil across the room. Temper tantrums may surface. You may storm out of offices or public places.

· Escape fantasies will begin. The most common – Hit the Road! The brain will suggest packing up your personal effects and leaving the family and community.

· Memory torture will begin. Your brain, thinking at 100 miles an hour, will search your memories for your most traumatic or unpleasant experiences. You will suddenly become preoccupied with horrible experiences that may have happened ten, twenty, or even thirty years ago. You will relive the death of loved ones, divorce, childhood abuse – whatever the brain can find to torture you with – you’ll feel like it happened yesterday.

· You’ll have Evil Thoughts. New mothers may have thoughts about smothering their infants. Thoughts of harming or killing others may appear. You may be tortured by images/pictures in your memory. It’s as though the brain finds your most uncomfortable weak spot, then terrorizes you with it.

· With Serotonin a major bodily regulator, when Serotonin is this low your body becomes unregulated. You’ll experience changes in body temperature, aches/pains, muscle cramps, bowel/bladder problems, smothering sensations, etc. The “Evil Thoughts” then tell you those symptoms are due to a terminal disease. Depressed folks never have gas – it’s colon cancer. A bruise is leukemia.

· You’ll develop a Need-for-Change Panic. You’ll begin thinking a change in lifestyle (Midlife Crisis!), a divorce, an extramarital affair, a new job, or a Corvette will change your mood. About 70 percent of jobs are lost at this time as depressed individuals gradually fade away from their life. Most extramarital affairs occur at this time.
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Re: Biochemistry, neurotransmitters and brain research
#172: October 20, 2014, 05:15:59 PM
R2T,
Thank you for bumping this up. I have not seen this before. Excellent!!!!
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Re: Biochemistry, neurotransmitters and brain research
#173: October 21, 2014, 04:15:15 PM
This article is not about neuroscience or brain research rather a man writing about his father depression and suicide and his own depression. It is quite sad as well as interesting.

And things like "My doctor asked me if I was having thoughts about hurting the people around me or other “dark” thoughts. Indeed, these had plagued me for years. When the lows of those oppressive Montreal winters hit, the thoughts became unrelenting. I won't go into detail about the content of those thoughts, but suffice it to say they were filled with terrible things that made me feel like a danger to those around me. In an interview about living with manic depression, comedian Maria Bamford couldn’t talk openly about her intrusive thoughts—that’s how dark they are. And when you feel this low, you soon feel ashamed—convinced that you’re capable of such heinous acts, even when you’re not. (When my father suffered from a nervous breakdown and near-suicide in the early 1990s, I learned that he also suffered from intrusive thoughts.)"

brings to mind our MLCers. It also has a good part about several things that can be done to help with depression.

http://arstechnica.com/staff/2014/10/harnessing-depression-one-ars-writers-journey/
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Re: Biochemistry, neurotransmitters and brain research
#174: October 25, 2014, 10:20:04 AM
I don't think we've even begun, as humans, to understand depression.  Hope it turns out to be a virus. :P

For your information, just noticed the website for This American Life has a podcast on testosterone.  I decided not to listen to it as that would not be about ME. ;D   Looks interesting tho.
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Re: Biochemistry, neurotransmitters and brain research
#175: October 25, 2014, 11:13:36 AM
A virus would not be far from what some scientists think it. Some scientists think that depression and scizophrenia can have several causes, one of them a virus. I think depression can come from many sources.

The testosterone podcast must be interesting but I tend to prefer to read articles than to listen to podcasts.
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Re: Biochemistry, neurotransmitters and brain research
#176: October 25, 2014, 11:48:34 AM
I don't think we've even begun, as humans, to understand depression.  Hope it turns out to be a virus. :P

;D, but then I  ??? a little.  Maybe?  Not that far fetched.  It will be interesting to someday know what the trigger is, and why it seems to be so much more widespread now (or is it just that we discuss it more?). 

Quote
For your information, just noticed the website for This American Life has a podcast on testosterone.  I decided not to listen to it as that would not be about ME. ;D   Looks interesting tho.

Thank you for this!  And not for me OR Hoss - my dad is always seeking his fountain of youth and deeper health, so this will be a good fit for him. :) 
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Re: Biochemistry, neurotransmitters and brain research
#177: October 25, 2014, 12:53:14 PM
Quote
Quote from: calamity on Today at 10:20:04 AM
I don't think we've even begun, as humans, to understand depression.  Hope it turns out to be a virus. :P

;D, but then I  ??? a little.  Maybe?  Not that far fetched.  It will be interesting to someday know what the trigger is, and why it seems to be so much more widespread now (or is it just that we discuss it more?). 

That is such an interesting concept, and such a potential.  Add in environmental/lifestyle factors, and bingo.

Quote
For your information, just noticed the website for This American Life has a podcast on testosterone.  I decided not to listen to it as that would not be about ME. ;D   Looks interesting tho.

 ;D Nearly 5 years of this stuff, and I sure do know what you mean.
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Re: Biochemistry, neurotransmitters and brain research
#178: October 28, 2014, 02:40:22 PM
... and why it seems to be so much more widespread now (or is it just that we discuss it more?). 

We discuss it more. And we also live longer.
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Re: Biochemistry, neurotransmitters and brain research
#179: January 13, 2015, 02:07:19 PM
"My Lovely Wife in the Psych Ward" - Good article about episodic crises that is a lot more empowering and realistic for some of us than the title suggests:  http://www.psmag.com/navigation/health-and-behavior/lovely-wife-psych-ward-95567/
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Re: Biochemistry, neurotransmitters and brain research
#180: January 13, 2015, 05:47:16 PM
Interesting. But, in the end, the only thing that worked and allowed for balance was a med. A lot of pain and discussion would had been avoided if the lady had stick to the one pill a day from the start.

But that lady is miles away from our MLCers. Our MLCers didn't snap right after they got at job at the age of 27 (and isn't 27 a little to late for a fist psychotic episode?).
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Re: Biochemistry, neurotransmitters and brain research
#181: March 08, 2015, 07:35:38 PM
Attaching (late)
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Re: Biochemistry, neurotransmitters and brain research
#182: March 12, 2015, 06:41:17 PM
This are amazing news.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2991149/Hope-Alzheimers-sufferers-scientists-developing-treatment-RESTORE-memory-loss.html - Hope for Alzheimer's sufferers with scientists developing a treatment to RESTORE memory loss

from the article:
"Australian scientists have made a major breakthrough in treating Alzheimer's with a new drug-free method that can restore memory loss.

Researchers at the University of Queensland's Brain Institute hope to be able to trial their new 'cheap and mobile' ultrasound device within two years on humans.

The treatment attacks the neurotoxic amyloid plaques that cause memory loss and cognitive failure with ultrasound waves."
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Re: Biochemistry, neurotransmitters and brain research
#183: March 12, 2015, 07:07:16 PM
Wooohooo!! 
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Re: Biochemistry, neurotransmitters and brain research
#184: March 12, 2015, 07:25:29 PM
Now I will be looking for breakthrough news on MLC. I still think it is possible to mitigate it, maybe even treat it.

Since for me MLC is not a question of FOO issues (those end up coming into the mix because of the brain/hormonal mess), but of hormones, high stress levels being number one, and the changes that are done to the brain, it has to be possible to, at the very least, mitigate it.

Maybe in a similar way of this discovery for Alzheimer's, but aimed at the brain parts affected when one is having a MLC.

I know, I'm a dreamer. With a certain level of degree of faith in science as well as in holistic approaches. Combined they can provide good results for something like MLC.
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Re: Biochemistry, neurotransmitters and brain research
#185: March 12, 2015, 08:45:50 PM
You know I'm right there with you, Anjae.  To me, I think the key is being able to recognize it at the onset.  Like with bipolar mania, once one is 'fully in', there's no rationalizing with them that there's a problem, because their brains no longer perceive it.  But outside of mania, a bipolar person can clearly see the irrationality of their thoughts and actions during that time.  That's when the change and treatment can happen, to keep the mania from coming on.  Mania typically lasts a LOT shorter than replay - so there's more opportunity to mitigate damages within a shorter time.  Trickier with what we're dealing with, whatever it is.

There are so many smaller issues that the MLCer may or may not be aware of (I know Hoss was googling his symptoms and ultimately sought psychiatric care, but the 'big picture' wasn't taken into account, just the small things that enabled him to be herded through the process quickly).  To tie the fight or flight to the hypersexuality to the personality changes, I think, will take a broader discussion culturally, and changing opinions about what MLC means.  Maybe that's where us creatives will come in - we have the means to start communicating things to the public through the arts and media that the medical world doesn't.

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Re: Biochemistry, neurotransmitters and brain research
#186: March 12, 2015, 09:20:37 PM
I agree with you two, Anjae and R2T. MLC takes too long and destroys too many lives. I think it should be called MLCC for Midlife Crisis Complex because there are so many factors involved.
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Re: Biochemistry, neurotransmitters and brain research
#187: March 13, 2015, 02:42:55 AM
Fantastic news!  Yes, yes, yes and yes to all that you said.
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Re: Biochemistry, neurotransmitters and brain research
#188: March 13, 2015, 02:57:33 AM
Wow!

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Re: Biochemistry, neurotransmitters and brain research
#189: March 18, 2015, 04:34:34 PM
For the board neuroscience geeks and curious, Coursera has a new neuroscience course: Understanding the Brain -The Neurobiology of Everyday Life.  https://www.coursera.org/course/neurobio

The course is free and even if one does not wants to do the tests one can just audit the lectures. It a ten weeks long course that has already started. This one is difficult, but extremely interesting.
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Sometimes good things fall apart so better things can fall together. (Marilyn Monroe)

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Re: Biochemistry, neurotransmitters and brain research
#190: March 18, 2015, 06:52:11 PM
I enrolled.  Lifelong learning as we say [nothing to do with mlc!].

Thanks Anjae
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Re: Biochemistry, neurotransmitters and brain research
#191: March 18, 2015, 07:49:03 PM
It looks like a great course. Definitely challenging. I also enrolled.
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Re: Biochemistry, neurotransmitters and brain research
#192: March 19, 2015, 11:15:39 AM
Signed up, too!  And MBIB:

Quote
I think it should be called MLCC for Midlife Crisis Complex because there are so many factors involved.

That needed to not be skipped over.  I totally agree!
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Re: Biochemistry, neurotransmitters and brain research
#193: March 19, 2015, 11:18:34 AM
I'm about halfway through the first week's video lectures and I can report that it's very interesting and very well done. Thanks Anjae.
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Re: Biochemistry, neurotransmitters and brain research
#194: March 19, 2015, 08:07:52 PM
It is nice to have board company on the course.

MBIB (and others), wait until you get to Week 3, Module 4: Embodied Emotion - Parasympathetic/Sympathetic.

Especially several of the sympathetic functions, especially those who have no counter action by the parasympathetic system, fit what our MLCer are suffering from.

Those and several other of the things talked about in the course. But this course deals with many things associated with the brain, from vision to motor skills/injuries.

It is different from the other neuroscience courses I took, that where more focused in just one main issue.
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Sometimes good things fall apart so better things can fall together. (Marilyn Monroe)

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Re: Biochemistry, neurotransmitters and brain research
#195: March 19, 2015, 09:14:07 PM
Just the people I need:  did we have another thread on biochemistry & brain research or was it just this one? 
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Re: Biochemistry, neurotransmitters and brain research
#196: March 19, 2015, 10:30:31 PM
Week one done, working through week 2 and now really looking forward to week 3.
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Re: Biochemistry, neurotransmitters and brain research
#197: March 21, 2015, 01:44:59 PM
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« Last Edit: March 23, 2015, 05:25:03 PM by Anjae »

 

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