[Ready2Transform]

So glad to see this thread revived!  I too think there's something unique about the male experience with this that certainly must link back to the T factor.  There are too many common symptoms in severely lowered testosterone and MLC for their to not be a tie - though I think MLC incorporates other things as well.  I think we talk about it so much less with men because it puts their "manhood" into question in our society, ridiculous as that is.  Peri-menopause and menopause, or even the archaic "the change of life" is something that has been on the radar for so much longer and is acceptable because women and feelings are okay - men and feelings? No way.  (That's just my overview of our society, not my actual belief, just to clarify). 

I wonder if there are studies on puberty in boys that would tie all of this together - to see comparatively how those changes ranked from individual to individual, to see if there are any predictable signs far earlier in life than where we're looking on the chemical side (childhood issues, I know, I know, Erikson crowd... ).  Just thinking out loud on it amongst the like minded.

[kikki]

So glad to see this thread revived!  I too think there's something unique about the male experience with this that certainly must link back to the T factor.  There are too many common symptoms in severely lowered testosterone and MLC for their to not be a tie - though I think MLC incorporates other things as well.  I think we talk about it so much less with men because it puts their "manhood" into question in our society, ridiculous as that is.  Peri-menopause and menopause, or even the archaic "the change of life" is something that has been on the radar for so much longer and is acceptable because women and feelings are okay - men and feelings? No way.  (That's just my overview of our society, not my actual belief, just to clarify). 

Very true.  I remember not too many years ago, when PMT and menopause were not considered any more than the figment of female's imaginations.
It may take more patience for this to become accepted too.

I wonder if there are studies on puberty in boys that would tie all of this together - to see comparatively how those changes ranked from individual to individual, to see if there are any predictable signs far earlier in life than where we're looking on the chemical side (childhood issues, I know, I know, Erikson crowd... ).  Just thinking out loud on it amongst the like minded.

I am sure there must be, but I haven't personally come across anything.
I do know at the anxiety disorders clinic that I dragged my H along to a few times post BD, that they said there was a familial link, and to watch our boys especially at puberty, because anxiety can often be triggered then.
They also considered that Depression always follows anxiety - you never see anxiety on its own. 
Another thing was that they told him that he was using leaving his family to control his anxiety symptoms, and that it wouldn't work forever.  It would merely be a temporary fix.

[Ready2Transform]

They also considered that Depression always follows anxiety - you never see anxiety on its own.

Like replay into liminality.  Interesting.

Another thing was that they told him that he was using leaving his family to control his anxiety symptoms, and that it wouldn't work forever.  It would merely be a temporary fix.

But I wonder what they were basing that on.  Is it because behaviorally it won't work, or is there some chemical reason unknown to us lay folk that would dictate a predictable pattern of change?  I know that's the million dollar MLC question, but still, it boggles the mind to think medical professionals and researchers may have insight into this those of us living through it could surely use.  I think that's where Standing changes the game - when people just divorce and move on no one's left to have an investment in the answer to these questions!

[kikki]

Yes absolutely, like replay into liminality.

Quote
Another thing was that they told him that he was using leaving his family to control his anxiety symptoms, and that it wouldn't work forever.  It would merely be a temporary fix.

But I wonder what they were basing that on.  Is it because behaviorally it won't work, or is there some chemical reason unknown to us lay folk that would dictate a predictable pattern of change?  I know that's the million dollar MLC question, but still, it boggles the mind to think medical professionals and researchers may have insight into this those of us living through it could surely use.  I think that's where Standing changes the game - when people just divorce and move on no one's left to have an investment in the answer to these questions!

I wish I could say.  I wasn't in any position to ask at the time.  Bursty was jumping around the room and bolted at this point.  The psychiatrist looked at me sadly and said that he was very sorry, there was nothing they could do to help unless Bursty wanted help.

I thought at the time that he meant behaviourally it was controlling his symptoms.  The change, the removal of responsibilities etc. And that that would only work for so long until reality hit again, but I could be wrong.
That is so true - most people seem to view this as a character fault, instead of disinhibition of the brain due to the depression and brain changes, and therefore I guess there is no going back for them, and therefore no digging deeply into the cause.
I probably don't need to explain how relieved I felt to discover this site explaining all of the behaviours, a few months post BD. 

[Trustandlove]

I've only listened to half of it; need to run, but what struck me was him saying that low-level chronic stress was one of the things that damaged brain cells, and possibly pre-disposed people  to depression later in life.  His study is on girls, and I don't know if it's different for boys, but I do wonder about this.

I always thought that my H grew up in a kind, loving family and never had the horrible childhood traumas that so many of our MLCers have, but money was a chronic problem, and that is one thing that I know has stayed with my H -- he so badly doesn't want to be poor.  But is a horrible money manager.  Somehow that seems to be tied into his idea of himself. 

Yes, society seems to view things like he does as a character fault; I do see the depression involved (not that that helps the practicalities that we're left to deal with) and the absolute inability to see clearly and to deal with it, hence the running.

I wonder where the avoidant personality thing comes into this?

And the next obvious thing:  what is this stress doing to my own teens?  What can be done to try to avoid them having these problems in the future?

[kikki]

His study is on girls, and I don't know if it's different for boys, but I do wonder about this.

He mentions later on that they chose to stick to study one gender to remove as many variables as possible, and because they know that hormones DO affect things.

That's interesting re your H and his growing up - my H was in the same situation.

I wonder where the avoidant personality thing comes into this?

Not sure about the avoidant personality - but definitely denial is a very major part of a great deal of mental disorders.  Part of their inability to see things clearly.
Plus sheer terror that there is a mental health issue to start with.  Historically, these things were thought to be caused by evil spirits or similar.  And it's going to take people a while to understand that you get poor behaviour when the brain function is poor.

And the next obvious thing:  what is this stress doing to my own teens?  What can be done to try to avoid them having these problems in the future?

I agree this is a major concern.  And for ourselves as well.  Not quite sure what we do about it though.

[Trustandlove]

Quote
And the next obvious thing:  what is this stress doing to my own teens?  What can be done to try to avoid them having these problems in the future?
I agree this is a major concern.  And for ourselves as well.  Not quite sure what we do about it though.
 

I know I sometimes feel it physically inside; not that hurt that came at BD, but a deep tension.  Do the usual breathing, meditation, but you never know what it's really doing.

What I am finding is that I just don't have anything LIKE the energy and focus that I used to have.  So so much just doesn't get done.  I do try to prioritise, but often end up, for example, cleaning instead of doing something that might help me generate income in the future, because it just drives me so nuts to see a dirty or untidy house.  I'm unable to focus on work because of house, but doing house helps me feel more in control, bit of a vicious circle. 

Sometimes it works, doing the practical stuff helps unlock energy to tackle more creative things, but I find that I'm often at a loss as to what is the right thing to do.  And that "at a loss" is the symptom of all this, it's the lack of thinking straight. 

This all goes to the idea of having compassion; I was going to start a separate thread on resentments and compassion.   Us understanding what is going on should help about that, but we still, at least I do, find ourselves feeling resentful when we could channel that energy more positively. 

I'll listen to the rest of it, it's a good one!

[kikki]

Had a bit of an aha moment with this information on dissociative disorder.

http://www.mind.org.uk/information-support/types-of-mental-health-problems/dissociative-disorders/#.Uqz00mQW3rc


The effects of dissociative disorder may include:

gaps in your memory
finding yourself in a strange place without knowing how you got there
out-of-body experiences
loss of feeling in parts of your body
distorted views of your body
forgetting important personal information
being unable to recognise your image in a mirror
a sense of detachment from your emotion
the impression of watching a movie of yourself
feelings of being unreal
internal voices and dialogue
feeling detached from the world
forgetting appointments
feeling that a customary environment is unfamiliar
a sense that what is happening is unreal
forgetting a talent or learned skill
a sense that people you know are strangers
a perception of objects changing shape, colour or size
feeling you don’t know who you are
acting like different people, including child-like behaviour
being unsure of the boundaries between yourself and others
feeling like a stranger to yourself
being confused about your sexuality or gender
feeling like there are different people inside you
referring to yourself as ‘we’
being told by others that you have behaved out of character
finding items in your possession that you don’t remember buying or receiving
writing in different handwriting
having knowledge of a subject you don’t recall studying.

[Ready2Transform]

Dissociative Fugue especially shares a lot of traits with my MLCer.

I can pick out immediately from this list the ones that I know for sure (it's a given there are things he didn't tell me):

gaps in your memory
distorted views of your body
forgetting important personal information
a sense of detachment from your emotion
internal voices and dialogue
feeling detached from the world
feeling that a customary environment is unfamiliar
a sense that what is happening is unreal
forgetting a talent or learned skill
a sense that people you know are strangers
feeling you don’t know who you are
acting like different people, including child-like behaviour
being unsure of the boundaries between yourself and others
feeling like a stranger to yourself
referring to yourself as ‘we’
being told by others that you have behaved out of character
writing in different handwriting

And just to geek out a bit on it (I think the thread title would allow for that  ):

http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Textbook_of_Psychiatry/Dissociative_Disorders/Pathogenesis

In the area of neurobiological research, multiple studies were done that confirm the presence of physiological changes associated with dissociative symptoms. As already mentioned, there is a hypothesis that early psychological trauma or abuse (i.e., stress) can mediate the development of those changes. To date, several neurotransmitter systems have been implicated in the development of Dissociative Disorders: Hypothalamo-Pituitary-Adrenal Dysfunction (HPA), Glutamate/N-methyl-D-aspartate (NMDA) receptor, Serotonin 5-HT2a, 5-HT2c, ?-aminobutyric acid (GABA), and Opioid receptors.

The HPA axis is known to play a central role in medicating the stress response. Several studies on this have been done to date. Most of them presented similar findings showing that individuals with dissociative symptoms have basal HPA-axis hyperactivity with elevated cortisol and diminished pituitary negative-feedback inhibition (Simeon, 2006).

As an extension of this dysregulation due to stress, some research was performed using neuroimaging. In both animal and human studies, stress at a young age has been shown to be associated with changes in the structure of the hippocampus. Smaller hippocampal and amygdalar volumes in patients with dissociative symptoms have been reported by some researchers (Vermetten, 2006). Decreased hippocampal volume may be explained by stress exposure; the hippocampus is a major target organ for glucocorticoids, which are released during stressful experiences, and prolonged exposure to glucocorticoids can lead to progressive atrophy of the hippocampus. The exact mechanism that can lead to smaller amygdalar volume is unclear. It is possible that other neurotransmitters play a role in this change. In their study, D’Souza et al. (2006) proposed that dissociative symptoms, similar to psychosis, may be related to the inhibitory (GABAergic) deficits that cause unopposed stimulation of serotonin receptors. Lysergic acid diethylamide (LSD), dimethyltryptamine (DMT) work as agonists of serotonin 5-HT2a and 5-HT2c receptors, again suggesting a possible mediating role for serotonin in dissociation.

This throws a lot of thoughts my way about the effectiveness of supplements in a case like this (luckily most that I've read says talk therapy, not pharma, is the preferred treatment.  Not a fan of pharma here!).  Found this from http://www.psychforums.com/dissociative-identity/topic116258.html

so the difference between DID and schizophrenia could be that in DID, the brain produces strong and coherent semantic models (alters) that correspond to different appreciations of the outside world. In schizophrenia, on the other hand, the semantic coherence breaks down altogether.

the interesting thing is, schizophrenia, according to some researchers, is characterised by an excess of dopamine in the brain. Certain drugs that massively boost dopamine in the brain (such as cocaine) can temporarily induce schizophrenia-like symptoms in healthy subjects, such as semantic disintegration, paranoia and delusions.

I'm not sure about the dopamine factor in DID, but I know that I, personally, am frequently low on dopamine. Now here's the thing: I have also noticed that once I increase my dopamine levels (through drugs or supplements), my mental fragmentation (i.e. separateness from alters) becomes less.

So this leads me to think: what if there is some kind of continuum, the extreme points of which are DID and schizophrenia, that is mediated by dopamine? so:

low dopamine - rigid semantic structures that can appear difficult to dissolve (e.g. amnestic walls between alters, difficulty integrating different structures/alters)

high dopamine - fluid and 'soft' semantic structure with a tendency to completely disintegrate.

I bring this up here because my xH had a marked period of cycling forward in spring 2012 after I'd suggested he take l-tyrosine, which is an amino acid that works to increase dopamine.  It cut off abruptly when he stopped (I suspect at OW's urging based on a few clues). 

All interesting data that just gives us a little more possible insight, I think.

[toughtimes]

Lots of info here:

http://www.raysahelian.com/