[toughtimes]

Annej my H too doesn't seem to have affaired down, she tweeted she was mistaken for Keira knightley! And I think her parents are wealthy, she rents a flat on her own in the city having chucked her boyfriend out when she got her claws into my H, but gets paid only a below minimum wage from my H! He's CEO of the business and she works for him. She 12 years younger than him, 14 years younger than me and they seem to be super happy .... Moved in together no less! He's desperately unhappy whenever he is around me and when I've gone or he's gone he visibly perks up.

Seems pretty weird to have an affair and move into the girls flat within months of leaving wife and kids take his guitar and a bag of clothes, leave everything else here at the house, come back and stay with kids at the house whilst I'm here too, not tell your kids, not sort out anything financially.

So I don't see it as an affair down, he's got a younger model without any ties or responsibilities. Her only responsibilities are to him as his lover and employee! She would annoy the £hit out of me but then I don't require constant ego boosting and adoration from a 25 yr old pretty, confident, fun girl!

[Moving Forward]

TT - she's got involved with a married man who has children - it is an affair down in anyone's books. She's 25 and stupid - emotionally healthy people do not get involved with married men or women - they are emotionally unavailable and prepared to take scraps of what the MLCer can offer.

Looks have nothing to do with it - neither does money.

The OW in my situation was 42 when she started seeing my H - none of what I am about to write is a lie 'she is a spinster who got involved with a married man when she knew he had children' - hardly a ringing endorsement is it?? If she was my daughter I wouldn't be too proud and I bet she isn't when closes her eyes and has to eventually face what she has done.

baggagereclaim.com is a site about OW and how they become OW but more importantly how they can build proper grown up relationships built on self respect and good self esteem - noone who is involved with a married man has either self respect or good self esteem.

[wondering]

I agree with MF.  An affair down has nothing to do with looks and money, although in some cases those qualities are also there.  It is about their affair partners emotional makeup.  What kind of person has an affair especially one that continues without a divorce.  Example, my H's affair partner, while she was not exactly pretty, she had a good job, owned her own home, money saved for her future, friends, hobbies, etc.  But when you looked closer, she was manipulating, obsessive at times, never had a long term relationship past a couple years even though she was close to 50 yrs old, etc.  My H has told me she has "many issues".  They can only keep the facade of being so good for so long, eventually these people let their guard down and there true colors come out.

[underpressure]

Followingbliss: THANK YOU for coming back and helping me with this! I don't know if I will ever really have the answer, but I am glad you found it through much work and help through this group of wonderful friends and thoughtful minds.

The slippery part for me in all of this is the suggestion (i believe RCR writes it somewhere) that an MLCer does not know, or he/she will not admit that he/she is in MLC. This reminds me the old adage "If you think you might be crazy, you aren't".

But is that really true? Is it really impossible for a schizophrenic person to know they are schizophrenic? or to question their "sanity"?

I am tiptoeing over quicksand with my own history. I don't KNOW if I believed I was in crisis at the time of my affair or if I was simply in DENIAL of the crisis. IF I did have a crisis, what was the 'trigger'? That seems to be an important question to ask...I do recall going from a steady stream of frustration and anger and depression and somewhat low energy moping around to BAM high-energy, plotting, planning, building, remodeling, losing weight, spending, and trying to get out of the house all the time. Hard to do with a 4 year old. My H remembers that period of intense energy to me and says I was "on fire". It was during this time that he said "You don't love me anymore". It was also during this time that I went from intense fear of looking in the mirror to photographing myself regularly as if I was looking for myself...did I recognize that person?

The energy started before the affair. But it gave me energy FOR the affair. Then I got on the high of the affair, and so it became complicated even more.

I told my therapist the first time I called him "Help, I think my marriage is falling apart" while standing on a ladder and screwing drywall in to the ceiling. This was before the affair had been discovered. I talked about my H in therapy for months. Especially after he moved out. And it wasn't until I thought of the correlations between being 12, date-raped, and this strange guy I had picked as an affair partner...and even my husband...What? Everyone was like "my rapist". Why had this come up out of the blue? It happened 32 years ago. THREE DECADES AGO! But suddenly it was like I was reliving it. And I remember the stockholm syndrome. I had it that night, the next day, the day after that. I never revealed the identity of my rapist. I let it disappear into the shadows.

What does this have to do with anything...Define Normal Affair? I love the thread that Following Bliss posted the link to. RCR can make everything seem so clear. My friends had encouraged me to get a boyfriend, and/or leave my H. At times I thought OM was a springboard, or an exit affair, only I didnt want to leave. I still dont. Even if I may have to. I was afraid of my H. I did have an emotionally bonded affair...big time. But i also ended it very quickly...not upon finding out, but because when OM came into my house...he put chocolate in my mouth the same way my H would. I hated them both at that moment. Not the same thing again. I didn't want him in my house! I didnt even know who he was! Sane enough, right? Normal Affair? How about a normal affair and a crisis at the same time? Not all MLC's have to have MLC affairs!

Oh boy now I have a headache.

[Anjae]

UP, normally a MLCer does not know he/she is in MLC. Even because most people don’t know about MLC. Many of us, LBS, had no idea our spouses were having a MLC. If a MLCer has never knew how a MLC looks like, they can never know they are having one. But I think they know something is wrong with them. My husband knew he was depressed, my cousin and a friend of mine knew there was something they have never felt before.

With my husband it happened the same as with you, first come the energy, then the affair with OW1. When OW1 left, he soon find new things to keep the high and it did not took longer for OW2 to be in place.

My uncle had an affair, my FIL was a philanderer but none of them ever caused the type of damage our MLCer caused. Not had they done crazy things divorce wise. All was done in a civil manner. I had never seen before the type of stuff husband is doing, even if I know lots of people who have had affairs.

Maybe you have a MLC, or MLT. Many people do and, sometimes, the crisis (and affair) of one spouse trigger a MLC and/or affair in the other spouse.

What is important, whatever the circumstances, is that we heal and learn from previous experience(s).

[xyzcf]

Underpressure...I am wondering why this matters so much to you?

Euphoria or irritability
Excessive talk; racing thoughts
Inflated self-esteem
Unusual energy; less need for sleep
Impulsiveness, a reckless pursuit of gratification (shopping sprees, impetuous travel, more and sometimes promiscuous sex, high-risk business investments, fast driving)

I have just goggled the symptoms of bipolar hypomania. There are many "diagnoses" that could be attributed to the symptoms that you describe including hormonal changes due to your pregnancy.

I do believe, from the research and literature that I have read that the person having a MLC would not admit that this is what is occurring. They may realize that something is wrong, but they usually will not see it as a crisis and a mid life crisis probably lasts 3-7 years and then some.

I also believe that our spouses MLC was not "triggered" by us or our marriage. It is something relating to them, way before they even knew us. You keep saying that your affair triggered his mlc. I disagree with that reasoning because their crisis is not about us or our marriages.

What is important now, today, is how you are feeling and leading your life. You have experienced several major traumas in your lifetime, and certainly these may contribute to many "symptoms"...but many people experience major trauma and that does not make it a mid life crisis.

Being raped at age 12 and not disclosing the name of the rapist could lead you to have symptoms of post traumatic stress disorder.

I am going to be really honest here, but this is just my take on things. We all learn from one another. Is it possible that you feel guilt about your affair and thus are desperately trying to attribute it to having a MLC?

I don't think our MLCers had affairs because they were not getting enough attention from the LBSer. The affair is related to their internal issues and not their partners issues. Just like everything else that they do to destroy the life that they once had....they turn away from their children, their friends, they lose their jobs, they abuse substances, they run up tremendous debt and the list goes on and on.

I know you want answers, we all do. But the answers won't be there until the time is right and if and only if they decide to share what went on within them with us. Our time now has to be spent focusing on recreating ourselves, of loving ourselves and working on issues that we also had before the marriage. It is difficult, whether it be mlc or not, it is difficult.

[underpressure]

AnneJ, I also think the idea that I might have had a crisis that calmed down to a transition is very probable.

xyzcf. Your idea is interesting and I also thought of that as well. I feel remorse more so than guilt for my affair. (The guilt I feel is not associated with the affair, but rather with the desire to refuse to come to the man-cave.) Nevertheless  I am haunted by the affair it in several ways, mostly I think as a reminder of that part of me that I left behind. And then also, surprisingly, out of loneliness. OM was a friend when I didn't feel I had one. The energy I felt from him was palpable and intense. It could knock me over from across the room. I felt like he was GIVING something. When I am with H, i feel I am sucked dry. Literally. The life force is drained out of me. I am not saying that my 'love' for OM was real. This is a haunting, not a real person. Yes I had those feelings at a time...But I am not going to commit them to that person. I am glad there is a reminder of it though...something telling me there is more to human relations than just this sad drama I am caught up in.

When I had the affair I did not use MLC as an excuse. Like AnneJ says, I didn't know what MLC was at the time. I did not find out about MLC until my H started ramping up his bizzare behavior and then gave me the line "I am going to start seeing someone and she wont like it if you and I are sleeping together".

Whether i found this site just before he said that or after he did... Hardly matters; I look at his behavior and mine overall at that point.

It is not even that I want to define what happened to me as "normal" or "mlc". I don't need an excuse for what happened. It felt normal for me to go through at that point...It happened. Perhaps it needed to happen. One could say that in MLC everything was perfect and there was no NEED for the affair, but that's not true either...that's not a difference. Doesn't matter if the marriage was 10 years or 20 or 30. I can't see what happened any other way, although I still wish I had done yoga instead.

So then i come back to the idea of my affair being about a character flaw. Yes, certainly my husband felt it was. He told the counselor that I was a serial offender. And that i have male friends...famous ones, he boasted, and that he generally doesnt mind my having famous  male friends, because that's "cool".    So he meant that although it's okay with him that I have male friends other than him, he is uncomfortable with my having certain male friends, maybe if they aren't famous? and he suspects my interest in them is beyond their name-dropping value.

This is not true. I have always had more male friends than female because (and I am more and more aware of this only recently) my mother is a narcissistic verbal abuser. She has improved as I get better at boundaries. But I have really hard time with any woman getting bossy with me, or controlling. And I often, as with my SIL, allow the boundaries with women to be crossed. I compromise a lot with her. But I really really have a hard time with bossy female voices...even in yoga. So, I have always fled to the more comforting chat I had with my male friends. Most of them were musicians and artists, I was an artist and a we had a lot to talk about. Many of my best male friends have died. One contacted me from out of the blue and we struck up a very close connection involving design discussions, discussions about marriage. he has been divorced twice. Has three children. There is a strong pull in me to be very close friends with him...he talks to me! About important things! He shares his feelings with me! But there has never been anything physical. Am I in love? Well, no. I would say agape but not eros. Still, the closeness we had a few summers ago (2009) after H declared there would be NO MORE CHILDREN, was threatening to H and he asked me to stop texting with him. I did. Character-wise, I don't know what to do. I am torn. I am married. I am standing. I would like friends, but I am not looking to date or have sex. It's hard for me to not want some degree of closeness with someone. It's hard to not have closeness with H. But this is what you are for, right? I could write all day to no one and it would not be the same. The hope that someone will read and understand is fulfilling.

There were no flirtations, no intentions of betrayal. I am not a serial philanderer or anything like it. I don't even flirt openly with anyone...he has never had a concern about my behavior around other men. But yes, I did find intimacy and friendship in others when he was not there for me. And that is a flaw of character. But so is adultery. So is monster. In that same sense. Maybe someone normally doesn't steal, but if they go out and steal a car one day, they will probably end up in jail...so the MLCer has character flaws. Even if they are temporary. These are flaws deep down in the shadow that are flipping outward and taking the place of the normal character we know.

I guess what I am trying to say is that I do think I had a crisis, that we are both in crisis, even if I sought appropriate help early on and reigned in my crisis to a great extent. I did spend several months in therapy blaming my husband for my behavior. It's very hard to not do that still as when I look back I still see so much he did to hurt me, but it's not the same now. Now it's his problem and my problem is separate. I need to understand this, and it helps me to see my condition in light of MLC as then I can focus on me...i can see my path better, I can make it through the depression without the replay, without the denial. We have no one here whose spouse sees themselves as being in MLC while they are in it? But even my friend, who has all the classic symptoms of MLC, was able to answer my accusation and say "Maybe OW is a projection of my Anima".

If I am in the midst of my own crisis this causes problems for others who want to think the MLCer wont look at themselves. Except that I probably dont look at myself enough and DO blame my H...but that's how this understanding of crisis started: with H going high-energy into his affair. So that's sort of an inevitability when there are two crises.

THis is way too long. I just woke up and had to write. I think the main point is that Identity transition in midlife is normal and is important and overwhelming as adolescent identity transition. So everyone has to go through the passage...it's how much foot-dragging they do along the way that creates the level of crisis. And if this is true, roughly, then it is POSSIBLE that most midlife affairs ARE MLC affairs and should be handled that way. Not as in excuses, but the person should be seen as being in crisis and struggling with an important transition. Self-focus (and the end of replay behaviors, denial, attachment, co-dependency) are my prescription for myself, and how is that not what is recommended here for all of us?

I know I have a lot more thinking to do about this, but this is where I am today.

[barbiedoll]

What do we see as the difference between midlife crisis affairs and just "ordinary " affairs. Sometimes it is hard to know the difference and we need reassurance that at the very least we know some of the "whys". I suspect some men can be both... cheaters that happen to also be in midlife crisis . How did you know and come to accept that his affair was a result of a midlife crisis? Does that make him any less responsible? And should knowing that, soften the destruction it has caused LBS?  My sister now suspects her husband is on his way down the same path... but he cheated 23 years ago. ( and NEVER since )  So, she believes it is just "in him" to cheat , and that MLC will have nothing to do with his choice to do it again.
I disagree .. What do you all think ? ( I told her I would just be asking all my friends .. Thanks )

[superdog]

I am sure many will disagree, but an affair is an affair is an affair.

If you read enough on affairs you will see that in either case its all about the person themselves and issues they have, whether in mlc or not. Its about things lacking in themselves.

In all cases they talk about how the "immature" response to marriage problems is to seek out someone else to fill the need.

So imo there is no real difference in the affair itself or why it came about. The only thing really i can point out is the time it lasts, or that revealing it means nothing. But then that happens in a lot of normal cases too. Similarly the guilt phases are the same, rewriting history, blaming the spouse, demonizing the spouse to justify. Its all the same.

If i am totally honest, we kind of fool ourselves here into thinking it doesn't matter, indeed it does matter, A lot actually. Can you honestly say that your spouse having an affair doesnt change everything forever. The special thing you had is gone. The trust is gone, the memories remain, the respect is gone etc etc. i personally don't believe i could ever think of my h the same way now, and that is me with no evidence of a PA only EA. He crossed the line, one that cant ever be uncrossed. I think its said predominantly to make you feel better about the situation, when in reality its the ultimate betrayal that cannot truly be undone. The person you trusted with your life did that to you. Depressed or not they did it and did not care what you thought or what you felt. Forgive by all means. But forget, never, you cant it will always be there.


I am trying to be realistic about the situation. There is a whole lot of the crisis itself that needs compassion, but not this bit. This is a conscious choice they make. I will await now for everyone to disagree.

Sd
X

[Howmanytimes]

Hi Barbiedoll

I'm glad you have done this thread.  If I'm honest I cannot answer whether my H is in a MLC affair or an average affair.

I found out about affair in Oct 2012 and he had been seeing her every weekend and every Easter when I thought he was going diving.  He had clothes kept at her place that I had never seen before and literally led a double life with her.  The affair had been ongoing at that time for six years.  I think looking back I had a breakdown.  I could cry for the poor soul I was then.  I remember spending the whole day in my bedroom sitting on the floor and screaming for my Mamma.  I kept saying  Mamma come and help me. The last time I called my deceased Mother Mamma was when I was about three years old. I was so traumatised by the discovery of a six year affair that I literally lost my mind. I used to spend entire days rocking back and forth crying for my dead Mother, calling her Mamma.  He never came to see me in the bedroom to try and help me and told me when I would rock back and forth endlessly for a few days to stop doing that.

His affair ended after disclosure but started up a few months later and then he left me in June 2013 for a month and then again ended it with her.  Then started it up again after about a year and left me in Oct 2014.  He thinks he loves her.  Thing is he still has feelings for me. Whether it is love I do not know but I do know it is like an addiction with his floozy.

Sometimes I think he is not MLC and then when he comes out with nonsense like if it doesn't work out with her he wants to remarry me then I think he is crackers and it can only be MLC. I don't think I will ever decide one way or another.  That is why this site helps because other people are able to see what you cannot see because they are impartial.

Sorry for rambling. A bad habit of mine.

HMT