[Which of these do you believe was the main factor triggering your spouse's MLC?]

Which of these do you believe was the main factor triggering your spouse's MLC?

Stress and/ or burnout

12 (25%)

Medication

1 (2.1%)

Dealing with childhood issues

10 (20.8%)

Hormonal changes

3 (6.3%)

Depression

8 (16.7%)

Neurological changes, unrelated to anything outside

1 (2.1%)

Underlying personality disorder,

7 (14.6%)

Social fears (aging, mortality, children leaving, etc.)

2 (4.2%)

Genetics

0 (0%)

External factors (work, OW, etc.)

1 (2.1%)

None of these (please add a note) Death of his mother

3 (6.3%)

Total Members Voted: 48

Voting closed: August 20, 2016, 03:03:33 PM

[Anjae]

On the other hand, behaviour is always more than conscious choices. We all think we are making conscious choices, but we are not, up to 95% of the time. Most choices are deeply unconscious. Likewise with our MLCer. ~

Indeed. But brain and body can be more powerful than the person's will. We all know people who have been in rehab a number of times and relapsed. Sometimes it takes several times into rehab for the person to be able to not use whatever they are addicted to. The addiction in itself is often (if not always) curable. And alcoholic will always be an alcoholic. They have to stay away from alcohol because they are not able to only drink one glass.

It is. To a point, I have a slightly different view on the conscious decisions. For example, Robert Sapolsky does not believe in free will. I do. I make a distinction between what I call mechanical actions, and the decision to write on the board.

The first could be all the mechanisms necessary to make me type on the keyboard. They are there, commanded by the brain, but I am not aware of them. They are mechanical and automatic. Writing on the board is something I decide to do or not to do. And that, for me, is free will. Sapolsky and other "hard line" biologists/neurobiologist  think we have no free will at all. Which, for some, could be a very convenient excuse for a number of things and letting people walk from any responsibility. I am not saying that it is the reason why those scientist think the way they do, it isn't. Just that some people could use to "get away with murder".

I also doubt that there is a neurological addiction without having a learned response first.

You may be right. I have to learn more about that. I have read some things with mice. It is possible that they are valid for humans, but it is an area I need to understand better. Mr J (the real one) is not a narcissist, so I can't use narcissism with him. I think with Mr J it was the depression. It made him feel lonely, frustrated and starting to see everything dark, except for OW1, who was providing a high, a light, along with the djing. He got addicted to the high she provided, as well as to the one that come from djing.

Some MLCers get hooked to OW/OM, and some to their MLC activity/activities. While Trustandlove's husband jumps from OW to OW, some, like Mr J, use their MLC activity. Mr J changes djing partners and tries new djing places, types of music, etc. He has been with OW2 for 8 years, she is not the one providing the high. Or maybe she is, if there is drama going on. I have no idea about that.

It is hard to stop any addiction. I had a little bit of that with Mr J's Facebook years ago. Then I gave it up. It took precious time and served no point. I also had it with my going out and about in the early times after BD. But I knew it was temporary. I had even said it to people, this is going to end soon. It did. And it was horrible. The withdrawal was terrible.

And, yet, my going out and about cannot compare to what MLCers do and for how long they do it. I cannot imagine how awful their withdrawal is. I know what in brain and body will be affected, but that is different from truly feeling the effects.

No wonder MLCers try to keep with their MLC behaviour for as long as possible. The cold, dark place is not attractive. And, when one is there, is seems hopeless. The pain never seems to end. It is very difficult to understand/think/feel that there will be light again and the pain will be, if not fully gone, much, much lower.

In a way, Replay is easy compared with hitting bottom. Bottom and all the work afterwards is the real hard part. And that, as you know from first hand experience, is the same for the LBS. Reconnection is extremely hard.

[Mermaid]

Indeed. But brain and body can be more powerful than the person's will.  Robert Sapolsky does not believe in free will. I do. I make a distinction between what I call mechanical actions, and the decision to write on the board.

Sapolsky and other "hard line" biologists/neurobiologist  think we have no free will at all. Which, for some, could be a very convenient excuse for a number of things and letting people walk from any responsibility. I am not saying that it is the reason why those scientist think the way they do, it isn't. Just that some people could use to "get away with murder".

The problem with neurobiologists is that they tend to take a neurobiological perspective... and social constructivists take a purely social constructivist perspective. Never the twain shall meet. Damasio does a brilliant job of discussing the brain body connection, issues of biological sources of the self and the importance of emotions in learning and decision making, but seems to lack some perspective when it comes to understanding how people act in the social world.

Except there are some who can straddle that divide. Famously, Bruner and Popper, for example. One of the most interesting books I've read on the issue of free will and choice, which considers neurology and psychology, is "Strangers to Ourselves: Discovering the Adaptive Unconscious" by Timothy Wilson.

We do have a degree of choice. But it's not the free will that Satre envisaged, nor determinism of Skinner or Bandura. There are so many things we don't and cannot choose, and which become a deep part of our learned behaviour. They disappear from our consciousness because we'd be paralyzed by too many choices if we had to think about every aspect of our lives, every minute of the day. (This is a process that Damasio describes well). But then these become part of the pattern of living... including the defense mechanisms that create personality disorders.

I think with Mr J it was the depression. It made him feel lonely, frustrated and starting to see everything dark, except for OW1, who was providing a high, a light, along with the djing. He got addicted to the high she provided, as well as to the one that come from djing.

Depression can come from reactions to external events, although this reaction varies with emotional resources, and it can also be from biological processes. Once we become depressed, it can set up a process of brain chemistry which is hard to change.

It is hard to stop any addiction. I had a little bit of that with Mr J's Facebook years ago. Then I gave it up. It took precious time and served no point. I also had it with my going out and about in the early times after BD. But I knew it was temporary. I had even said it to people, this is going to end soon. It did. And it was horrible. The withdrawal was terrible.

I understand that. But you did, and I did... so we had some awareness. What stops them? Fear? Addiction? Something else? Fear, certainly, in anyone with strong defense mechanisms such as those in PDs...

[Velika]

From this forum my feeling that there is perhaps an equation:

{stress} + {depression} + {addiction} = MLC behavior

Each of these factors could have numerous and even multiple causes. For one person stress is a promotion while for another it is a death. For one depression could stem from new medication, another from chronicle health issue. For some, the addiction is to affair partner, to another it is work.

I think there are enough commonalities to the manifestation of the behavior, and it is peculiar and specific enough, that it must be at least in part neurological. I also believe this because it often is self destructive and cannot be accounted for by MLCer later.

[Ready2Transform]

I also believe this because it often is self destructive and cannot be accounted for by MLCer later.

Could you clarify this for me? I'm not getting what you mean.

Honestly, even though the affairs or work may be addiction-like, if the root of MLC was at least in part due to addiction, we might be seeing more alcoholics and drug addicts here (they may even be more the norm than the exception). There certainly are some, I know, but with my xH, he didn't start the heavy drinking until after MLC started, and his depression was why he sought psychiatric help prior to that (though I know the side effects and/or withdrawal from his meds ramped up his 180 behaviors). It's interesting, and I'm not saying the formula is off, but it still seems too general to call commonalities off of (to me).

[Anjae]

I think the addiction like behaviours, for many, come with MLC. They were not like that before. And the affair only exists because there is MLC, they may become addicted to it, but it is a MLC addiction. Mr J didn't drunk before MLC, other than the occasional glass of red wine, sangria or beer on a special occasion. Since he left the drinking got worst and worst. In his first birthday away from home, he drunk so much that, the next day, he could not remembered anything that had happened. Same with his 40th birthday. He literally drunk till he fall. And some "good friends" were "kind enough" to post those photos on Facebook. Don't ask me which type of friends does that because I do not know.

I think it means MLC behaviour is self destructive, therefore it is not a rational choice, it may indicate imbalance of some sort (neurological or other), that leads to said self destructive behaviour. And that the fact the crazy behaviours are forgotten after the crisis points to something brain connected. Which would not be a lie. The brain has mechanisms to protect itself (and us) from certain things may be considered to detrimental to a person's functioning.

Mermaid, I want to reply to you, but today I am too tired to write long, serious things.

[osb]

Should we perhaps distinguish between addiction and compulsion?

The behavioral tic of an MLCer who has to do something (no matter how personally destructive) seems not quite the same as an addict who has to consume something for its secondary effects, no matter how destructive (addiction's a subset of compulsions, not limited to drugs/alcohol; some studies say gambling supplies a physiological high that's similar to a drug-induced high). Agree addictions may show up later, as self-medicating behaviors. Compulsive activity is an umbrella terms that could include all of the I-can't-believe-I'm-doing-this-but-I-simply-have-to-do-it MLC trainwreck behavior presenting right up to BD and afterwards.

I can't be physically addicted to Facebook; but I could feel compelled to look at FB every 15 minutes, like a person with OCD might wash their hands every 15 minutes. It's an almost involuntary form of exerting control when one is spinning out of control, serves to temporarily soothe the savage beast - unsurprisingly, OCD tics show up a lot in depressed individuals. Which gets us back to the MLC chicken and egg story...

[Velika]

This is interesting. So maybe it is more like:

{stress} + {depression} = MLC behaviors

And one MLC behavior is compulsions?

One question I do have in all this is, for MLC to occur, does there need to also be:

{stress} + {depression} + {marital dissatisfaction} = MLC behaviors

I mean could a person in a truly happy marriage have a MLC? This is something I struggle with a lot. Often it is easier for me to analyze from another's perspective, for example my sister in law had MLC and in my mind she was only seeing an overall happy marriage in a negative light due to depression/imbalance. It is likely a lot of her own depression that led to some of what she experienced as marriage-related unhappiness.

In her case it was obvious for years leading up to "bomb drop" that she was unhappy with her husband. In my husband's case though the change was extremely dramatic. Would this have more to do with the MLCer temperament (maybe he just kept cards close to chest) or is this indicative of some biological stressor?

I'm just wondering, how abrupt does this have to be for this to deviate from typical affair behavior or typical "just wants out" behavior?

[Trustandlove]

My two cents -- I do think depression is a huge part of it, precisely because depression causes one to look at everything so very differently.  Marital dissatisfaction isn't really it per se, I don't think, because pretty much every marriage goes through some unsatisfactory times, but when you are depressed you truly think that the marriage or whatever it is is the root cause, rather than recognising depression for what it is.

It is interesting to consider what causes the depression in the first place, and how much neurological things apply, how much substances affect it, and all that. 

I say this only because I have struggled with depressions myself, to various degrees, and I know when the fog descends it really does alter your view of pretty much everything.  It becomes hard to keep anything in perspective.  And when it lifts you think -- goodness, why on earth did I think that _______ was the problem? 

So yes, stress + depression = MLC behaviours.    It doesn't help that so many think that depression is a weakness, that "it can't possibly be the problem", that it must be something outside, all that. 

That doesn't mean that there aren't things in the marriage or job or everything that don't need improvement, but an MLCer takes that all to the extreme and just wants to dump it all. 

[Mermaid]

I struggle with the idea that MLC has a formula, because there are so many variants.

{stress} + {depression} = MLC behaviors

One question I do have in all this is, for MLC to occur, does there need to also be:

{stress} + {depression} + {marital dissatisfaction} = MLC behaviors

Depression can be caused by biological events, there's little doubt about that, such as genetic tendencies or illness. There's also little doubt that depression (like all mental events) has a corresponding set of neurochemical changes (low serotonin, etc.)
 But some causes start from a behaviour, which is linked to deep issues of self in the social world and relationships, such as  substances (medications, drugs, alcohol, food) and the way we react to major events, death, loss, conflict, stress etc. Even genetic tendencies can be turned on or off by events in the social world (and this genetic tendency can continue in later generations without the need for repeated stimulus). Here's a slide share linking to biological causes of depression

http://www.slideshare.net/staroversky/biological-causes-of-depression

and another one including external and internal events:

http://www.comh.ca/antidepressant-skills/adult/workbook/pages/section1-02-00.cfm

I know my H and many others were depressed. But I'm sure that in the case of my H, his depression arose from the way that he interacted with the world, including me, and how he had built his psychological defences. He also got to the point of burnout, which is a severe physiological reaction to stress, and also led to some need for escape activities, which relieved that sense of stress. Compulsive behaviours become rewarding because of how they make you feel.

In other words, it would be a mistake to think of depression, in most cases, as a purely neurological event unrelated with the outside world.

It would also be a mistake to say that you need to have depression to be in crisis (some MLCers don't seem to), which is when someone faces an obstacle, trauma, or threat, from which they can grow or decline. Reactions vary, as we have seen, including the escapist behaviours that we report so often.

I like this old definition from Caplam; “People are in a state of crisis when they face an obstacle to important life goals—and obstacle that is, for a time, insurmountable by the use of customary methods of problem-solving.”

So, what we can say is that they are in crisis, sometimes including depression, and their attempts to solve it result in often destructive and escapist behaviours.

[xyzcf]

I know my H and many others were depressed. But I'm sure that in the case of my H, his depression arose from the way that he interacted with the world, including me, and how he had built his psychological defences. He also got to the point of burnout, which is a severe physiological reaction to stress, and also led to some need for escape activities, which relieved that sense of stress. Compulsive behaviours become rewarding because of how they make you feel.

Mermaid, how often I have found similarities between your husband and mine! Especially this:

Compulsive behaviours become rewarding because of how they make you feel.

I recently spent some time with my husband and that always gives me a window into this crisis.....and as usual, I am struck by his inability to have any emotional connection, or more correctly, to show any emotional connection to anything except his addiction which is to his job. For I do not know what is happening inside of him, but outwardly he is locked inside a block of ice...that is the only way I can explain it, frozen in time and place without any real connection to anything or anyone other than work and the people that he works with.

What will happen to these men, when work runs out? Maybe they will successfully transfer their dedication and devotion to something else......but are they able to emotionally connect to anyone again?

This to me is a tragedy for no matter how I have felt pain from the lack of connection, I still feel a rainbow of emotions that allow my life to feel complete and indeed satisfying.

This may explain why he continues to remain in contact with me.....I am still the one who brings family together, he may see me, with my ability to emotionally connect, as a link to that world that he has no access to....for indeed, his comment to me many years ago as to why he can not live with me as my being too intense also has some truth in it...but I think it is also what draws him towards me at times.