[Dontgiveup]

Stillstanding

Thank you for posting the article links that I referenced.

From Ready
"What HB is writing and advising is that he may try and come back to WM in the future, but he will only be running away from OW and will still be in replay. That the chances are very slim that he may ever truly solve his issues and he may run from ow#1 to ow#2."

It is quite possible the MLCer will leave OW and still be in Replay.  I have seen this firsthand with my friend's ex-wife.  I do not agree that running from one OW to another makes the chances slim that the issues of MLC will not eventually be solved.....the process will continue.  In my friend's case, she did go to OM#2, and the relationship with OM#2 was worse....and more quickly worse.....than with OM#1.  But to say this means she will never truly solve her issues, I am not sure I agree with.  At some point, it is quite possible if not probable that the MLCer will not be running anymore.

Here's RCR's article MLCers Run Even When the Alienator is Gone.
http://www.midlifecrisismarriageadvocate.com/standing-actions_contact-and-communication_pursuit-and-distance_mlcer-run-when-alienator-gone.html

From Ready
"I just want to make sure that we give good solid advice and not become a group that is stuck to absolute beliefs that every MLCer is coming back and every marriage is going to be saved."

I am divorced.  I am quite certain there is no abo$l()te belief about MLCers coming back and marriages saved.  I do believe and trust in the process of MLC......and below is another reality that I reference often.

From RCR's article Stories and Human Behavior
"An MLCer may become stuck, but those are the rare cases. More common is for a person to regret their actions--often when they are too late because the spouse has closed the opportunity for marital reconciliation."

From Ready
"Once again, you speak in absolutes."

I reference articles.


From Ready
"MC often fails if the LBSer convinces the MLCer to go. Then the MLCer may use the counseling as a forum to show why the marriage is over. In my situation, it was her idea. If I had turned it down, she could have easily twisted that as a point that I did not want to save the marriage."

In my situation, it was also her idea to go to marriage counseling.  I did not turn it down either....I went.  I also know of other MLCers who are the ones who suggested marriage counseling.  The effectiveness was still low because, although the MLCer may be cycling during counseling (as mine was) they were ultimately still running.

[limitless]

I thought I would chime in regarding the MC.

One of my associate's wife threatened him with divorce over a year ago.  She stated that, unless they went to MC, she would be gone.

Fast forward - after one year plus of MC - with some major changes made by my associate - his wife left anyway.

In this instance, I see the MC as just a means to an end.  She wanted to leave.  She didn't want to look like the "bad guy."  I believe she expected him to fail at MC....and he didn't.  When the MC turned to her and said - your H has made some great changes...what are you doing?  -  She just acknowledged that it didn't matter - she still wanted out.

limitless

[In this for ME]

In this instance, I see the MC as just a means to an end.  She wanted to leave.  She didn't want to look like the "bad guy."  I believe she expected him to fail at MC....and he didn't.  When the MC turned to her and said - your H has made some great changes...what are you doing?  -  She just acknowledged that it didn't matter - she still wanted out.

My my what great lengths they will go to so they are not the "bad guy". Get manipulated and yanked around by OM or OW because they don't have the guts to walk away..feign they are trying at thier marriage then bail on the spouse anyway...try and blame everything on the spouse and take no responsibility for thier role in the disintegration of the marriage..or even raise a little flag that they are soooooo unhappy

Good Lord you'd have to be Carnac the Magnificent  to figure these people out.

[readytofixmyselffirst]

Then let us reference research:

MIDLIFE DIVORCE INITIATION:
FROM CRISIS TO
DEVELOPMENTAL TRANSITION
Sara Iwanir
Haviva Ayal

CONTEMPORARY FAMILY THERAPY December 1991.

Excellent article on recognizing that midlife marriage therapy is different from traditional marriage therapy.

Sometimes one of the marital partners suffers a personal crisis, due to problems in his or her career, in
health, or to a feeling of existential anxiety, such as a sense of emptiness, a lack of purpose, or an identity problem.

In these cases individual therapy is recommended, focused on the initiator's problem. The partner may be used as cotherapist to support the client and to help create a new interaction and marital pattern that is adapted to the changes in the position of the individual.

Unbalancing previous hierarchical relationships. The person who initiates the rejection gains an advantage over the rejected person, even though in the past he or she may have been the weaker partner. The conflict initiation and the resultant power shift disrupt the existing situation and open the way for redistributing the balance of
power between the partners. In many cases the initiator is ahle to provoke the crisis through an external empowering factor such as a lover or even a therapist. Such a factor gives him/her the strength to dislocate the existing unsatisfactory or even destructive relational pattern. We refer to this process as "unbalancing the system". Minuchin & Fishman (1981) write about therapists using this technique in order to empower a family memher, for instance, by openly siding with him. The unbalancing of the system may produce significant changes in cases where individual family members are able to experiment with a variety of interpersonal roles and functions.

These changes, in tum, may produce new realities for the persons concerned. There are two types of S/DIs: overt and covert. The overt one is defined as a case where one spouse leaves the home, starts legal proceedings, or states his/her wish to separate. Here, the real wishes are stated openly. In the covert initiation, often the person concerned will show signals such as: an affair, devoting a lot of time and energy to activities outside the relationship, ceasing to provide money (for men) or cooked food (for women), and rejecting any attempt at closeness and cooperation. Federico (1979) described the often unconscious or precocious
strategies whereby the (covert) initiating partner provokes the other to behaviors that can lead the marriage to a point of no return.

This kind of initiation can he used by the one who wishes to separate but is
not ready to take responsibility for his/her decision. The initiating party, says Federico (p. 100), uses one out of two strategies to make his partner the one to blame for the S/DI: The first strategy is provocation: the initiator starts a series of escalating rejections, disturbances of everyday routines (such as neglecting to fulfill accepted roles) and humiliations. The spouse starts by accommodating in a complementary way to these new norms. At a certain point the partner finds the situation insufferahle, and reacts by suing for divorce.


The article then makes recommendations for the therapist and the couple to reestablish emotional bonds. Some of it is outdated but it does recognize leaving the children out of it.

My point is that if the MC recognizes MLC, they can be a benefit.

As I read the articles, I will post more. As I have stated before, the newer models of MC involve looking back at the childhood and adolescent issues. The feeling is that if they can identify and heal "past" issues, they can then work on the marriage. Once again it recognizes that some of the crisis issues are more connected with issues that occurred prior to the marriage and must be addressed before the therapy can continue to work on the marriage.

One of the things the article suggested was a symbolic ending of the old marriage and starting a new marriage. Both parties accepting that the old marriage was over and it was time to start a new marriage.  (I think HB told me once that I had to accept my old marriage was dead, burnt to the ground, even the foundation was gone) We don't stand for the old marriage, we stand for the new marriage that is created when the partner comes out of MLC.

I will also let you know that there is very few quantitative or qualitative studies concerning MLC. Even Thundarr will admit to little if no training in this area. However, I do spend time reading them and trying to glisten information concerning identity and identity crisis.

The point is there is not just one way to deal with MLC or a secret code- I believe that we have to read and then we take what works for us. We also post our personal stories. One day after I finish my own paper. I will try to download the threads and code them into a phenomenological source and put the data out for all to read. That is way down the road.

I just am noting that I also read and study and I my observations and advice are based not only on my experiences, but what I have read on other threads, and research that I have completed.

[HeartsBlessing]

I have posted my own reply here on Writing Mom's Thread:

http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=1935.45



Love,
HB

[Dontgiveup]

From Ready
"(I think HB told me once that I had to accept my old marriage was dead, burnt to the ground, even the foundation was gone)"

I agree that the old marriage is done.  I don't believe the foundation is gone.  I have seen this pretty clearly with my friend whose ex-wife married the alienator, then later divorced the alienator.  There is a foundation that her and my friend have.  Her communication to him shows this to be true.

Below is part of RCR's blog called Love: Foundations & Seeds.  The link to the entire blog is below that.

"Your MLCer may ravage the building that is upon the foundation, but the foundation itself remains. It is your history and your family. It is the lessons you learned together, how to calm each other down, how to excite each other, how to cook just the way you like or not use the foods you don’t. You built your foundation of countless little things as well as a few big things."

http://loveanyway.theherosspouse.com/?p=219

[HeartsBlessing]

There is a foundation that her and my friend have.  Her communication to him shows this to be true.

Having past history that includes your family, and attaining a more true and solid foundation within the rebuilding of a NEW marriage, are TWO vastly different stories...history is what you have with your spouse because of having been with them for a period of time, whether long or short. But the foundation this same history was once built upon wasn't made of the best materials to begin with; simply because neither person knew beforehand what a truly bonded and loving marriage was all about.

Although the marriage itself doesn't cause the crisis; there are TWO people within this same marriage that must bear their own individual responsibilities for the events that led to it having broken down and the foundation completely destroyed in this process.

"Your MLCer may ravage the building that is upon the foundation, but the foundation itself remains. It is your history and your family. It is the lessons you learned together, how to calm each other down, how to excite each other, how to cook just the way you like or not use the foods you don’t. You built your foundation of countless little things as well as a few big things."

I respectfully disagree with RCR's article and I will tell you why: a foundation that was once built on sand, straw and even brick in the past is completely destroyed by the actions of the MLC'er toward the marriage when THEY destroyed the whole nine yards.

It takes two to make it; ONE to break it; and this is very true when it came to what was done at bomb drop.  The whole foundation was taken out from underneath, just as sure as the proverbial rug was jerked out from under the unsuspecting spouse when the MLC'er says the words that destroys a whole lifetime of work, togetherness, relationship and marriage.

Once the journey is walked by BOTH people, however, the rules of engagement undergo a radical change, and they SHOULD..you do NOT wish for this to happen EVER AGAIN, and for this to take place what follows must needs to happen:

A NEW FOUNDATION and "dwelling place" must needs to be built from GROUND UP, CONCRETE mixed with ROCK is the way to go within this second round, and this new foundation must be a much firmer  and stronger one than before.

The concrete represents what's been learned by both people, the rock represents the greater strength that is added to the NEW foundation once it's begun, finished, and the house(relationship/new marriage) is being rebuilt in all NEW aspects.

Nothing should ever be the SAME, ever again.

In order to rebuild the new marriage IF it comes to this; a whole NEW foundation MUST be rebuilt upon a NEW knowledge of what commitment entails, based also on a NEW knowledge of love and what it really means, NEW aspects, NEW principles, and a NEW way of relating; this has everything to do with the LESSONS that MUST be learned by BOTH people.

Literal "children" go into the crisis, true adults emerge and the result SHOULD BE much stronger, more deeply committed, and more resolute couple than before;  this takes so much WORK to accomplish; nothing good is ever easily attained.  You must be willing to continue to grow, even as this rebuilding takes place; and this also means standing your ground, making sure your spouse clearly understands what must happen in order to go forward into this new marriage.

EVERYTHING MUST CHANGE to STRENGTH; with NO weaknesses in this aspect remaining; NOTHING of the "old" should remain except what is NOT going to make that much of a difference in the long run.

When my husband and I began to rebuild; we found that EVERYTHING had been completely destroyed; and we had to rebuild from SCRATCH; which meant the very foundation we ONCE stood on was ALSO gone.

In it's place stood two STRANGERS that had to get to know each other again; BOTH of us had changed drastically because of what had happened within the fabric of our lives.

As long as ANY of the 'old' remains, there will be MORE purging that takes place and that means MORE crisis is in store.

This was very true within his second bout of crisis; as he had one last issue to face, resolve, and eventually heal within himself.   Until ALL was faced, resolved, settled and healed by BOTH of us, we could NOT rebuild our NEW marriage properly, a total rebuilding was defined to me, as meaning from the FOUNDATION UP.

When he went into this second bout of crisis, the whole marriage was destroyed once again; PLUS what foundational work that had been started...and it was NOT right, simply because he was NOT finished, but then, neither was I.

He'd made the major decision to KEEP the marriage; but that has NOTHING to do with the rebuilding we had to begin from scratch ONE MORE TIME. 

It had to be right, or it couldn't be.....I dreamed of this particular aspect one night; and in my dream, I saw someone I didn't like at all; this represented my husband; and we were trying to build a house from foundation up, but HE was trying to take "shortcuts", and I was having to stand my ground, and tell him NO, we could NOT do it this way.  We were arguing, me and this man I didn't care for, nor like; but in the end, he had to do it the way I wanted it done.

When I carried this dream to one who interprets these, it was revealed to me that the man I didn't like was my HUSBAND; he was trying to do whatever he wanted to do; and get me to accept something "half made".  This could NOT be, as I was fighting him at every step.

The "house" plus the NEW foundation represented our "new" marriage as it was trying to come together just before my husband went into his second bout of crisis.

Yet, it was NOT "right" for obvious reasons.

The point being; until it was "right" for BOTH of us, we would get NOWHERE in our attempts.

I DID see this come to pass...and as I asked for further understanding; it was given to me as I went.

In other words, to begin from the BOTTOM to the TOP we had to START OVER COMPLETELY and TOTALLY  and this started with us building a MUCH STRONGER foundation to build ON than we'd had before.

We could NOT rebuild on the "old" foundation that my husband had destroyed, and I had to let go of this aspect, as well.   NO ONE can hope to rebuild a successful new marriage from ANY of the OLD, nor should anyone simply "settle" for a "cracked" or "destroyed" foundation.

Don't "settle" for anything you don't wish to accept...too much "muddy water" has gone under the bridge to ever go back to what once was; it won't work.

The only "sure" rock foundation anyone has is the Lord; and with His Guidance, together, we rebuilt; this time with CONCRETE mixed in ROCK, to speak metaphorically.  And this time, all went as it should have.

This meant getting ALL and EVERYTHING.

This is NOT about me being "right" this is about what I've LEARNED by having gone through...and this is NOT about being a "perfectionist"; this is about my own true experience.

Love to all,
HB

[Thundarr]

Hello all,

I have been hesitant to chime in on this thread as it has become less about the original topic and more a philosophical debate amongst those who have a much greater knowledge and wisdom than I am even close to, at least at this point.  I don't know if I can hang in on a debate between Ready, DGU, Limitless, HB and even RCR.  Thank you Ready for stating "even Thundarr" as I am both honored and humbled by that remark, and will state again that I make no claims or assertions that I am any more knowledgable or wise than anyone else here.

That being said, I will throw my hat into to the arena and hopefully add something to the discussion.  Ready's article that he reprinted was amazing in that the foundation for the therapeutic approach is grounded in empirically validated theories.  I don't know what techniques the therapist who Ready is seeing uses, but I would strongly suspect a John Gottman influence as evidenced by the direct line of questioning and cutting straight to the point that to his W he can do no right.  Unfortunately, Gottman has not specifically addressed MLC (even though he's written literally dozens of books) but many of his concepts COULD be applied if the therapist had a solid understanding of what he or she was dealing with when seeing a couple with one partner experiencing MLC.  Again, I really like the article and feel that the information contained within IS valid and fits with what we know about MLC but without the field research of utilizing it in a real world setting we can only speculate.

As far as the foundation of the marriage goes, I'm going to straddle the middle a bit here as I agree with DGU in that the foundation IS still there in most cases from what I have seen but I may define foundation differently than what he and HB have been describing.  First off, most would say that the foundation of any relationship is trust and if that were the criteria used then the foundation is surely destroyed even if there is not an alienator.  Just knowing that my W could so viciously hurt me and then laugh in my face at my pain affects my trust not only in her but in humankind itself.  I WANT to believe that what I'm seeing is not the real her, but if I were to judge only outward behaviors then I would have no choice but to deem her a sociopathic abandoner who has no maternal instinct or code of honor.  In a way I'm forced to accept that hormones and brain chemicals are involved which led to what I consider out-of-character behavior.  In fact I know that not having concern for the kids is out of character as I don't believe she could have faked concern for her children for the last 19 + years that we have been parents.  I am still mystified by the fact that the maternal instinct can be overridden and logic would tell me that the only force more powerful would have to be a threat to individual survival, which lends credence to the belief that the MLCers are running away because they fear dying.  Even with that, though, mothers (and fathers) sacrificing themselves for their children is not uncommon in the animal kingdom or in the human world especially.  Going back to the original sentence in this paragraph, that trust in the very basic belief that we really "know" the other person is oftentimes shattered by the events of MLC.

Now, as for my personal theory on the foundation of the marriage I think that trust IS a large part of it but also familiarity as well.  This would seem to be disputed by my previous paragraph, but that notwithstanding I again go with the assertion that the core person is inside there and that  the things that made the person who they are will not change permanently.  One of the theories in MC has to do with the two trees growing side by side and how the roots end up becoming so entangled with each other that they eventually grow together.  Both trees may be strong above ground, but if you start cutting the roots both trees will suffer.  They may eventually recover and grow new roots separate from each other but they will never again be completely purged of the other tree due to shared resources.  20 + years of a relationship changes both parties in ways that can never truly be undone, and this can be validated by the fact that couples sometimes reunite 20 or more years after separation/ divorce.  Our spouses are and will always be part of us and vice versa, so that foundation of familiarity will still be there even if we change everything we can about ourselves.

I do not speak in absolutes here as there are no such things in the fields of Psychology and Counseling.  There are some marriages and relationships that WERE never valid even though the parties went through the motions.  Many stay married for years and never truly commit nor do they accept the other person into their own heart.  In those cases there is no foundation and I believe that the two could walk away and never look back.  It may even be seen as a relief to both.  I think many celebrity marriages are this way, as I believe many celebrities and politicians as well lack the necessary tools to truly bond with another person.  It is an accepted belief that many of the glitterati are sociopaths, and this could be a large part of how they got to where they are.  Not being constrained by "weaker" emotions such as empathy and guilt could go a long way to helping a person reach their own personal goals, but could also help them to reach Death Row as well.  But, I digress.

Now, as far as what HB said about "two children entering the marriage" I do respectfully (as always, HB) have to disagree in that it does take only one to destroy what has been built by both.  The actions of the MLCer are not representative of the mental faculty or maturity of the LBS as I have seen truly mature, dedicated and intelligent people on here suffering the same fate as I am due to the actions of their spouse.  Is it fair to assert that all the LBSes on here were immature "children" who weren't ready for a "real" marriage?  I think not.  I won't speak about myself in this regard as I would be a biased judge of my own character, and I'm sure many on here WOULD say that I was probably a child in a grown-up marriage but oh well.  I truly don't think the breakdown of the marriage is the fault of both parties as I don't feel the marriage really breaks down, but rather the MLCer is what breaks.  I liken that to one of the spouses becoming ill (and we often speak of MLC as an illness) and then either dying or becoming incapable of fulfilling their marital duties.  Would we blame the widow/ widower or say that they had a part in their marriage ending?  Absolutely not.  The LBS may be completely mature, devoted and capable of making a life-long commitment and honoring it to the hilt and still be blind-sided by the partner that changes personalities and walks out.  And furthermore, if we are to accept that MLC is a "process" and therefore by definition "temporary" then for many it may be just another blip on the radar of a 50+ year marriage that the LBSer was ready for all along.

Sorry for such a long post and I hope I haven't stepped on any toes as, like I said, those who posted before me are not only more knowledgable than I in this but also some of the smartest people I've ever had the pleasure of getting to know.  Thanks to all for such a great line of discussion and fruit for thought.

[Mamma Bear]

  They like to call the "Foundation" of the World Trade Centers "The footprint"   I like that. After the implosion and destruction a new hole is carved out. Rebuilding from scratch in a familiar geography.
   I'm with Thundarr in The Newbies section.....I'm like the Count from Sesame Street talking to Einstein

[LettingGo]

Very interesting discussion... so interesting, I'm going to throw my two cents in here...

Is it fair to assert that all the LBSes on here were immature "children" who weren't ready for a "real" marriage? 

In my assessment, not only of myself, but from the writings of others on the forum, I would say that a level of maturity has been gained.. a level of personal insight.... a level of empathy for complete strangers.... that would NOT have been gained if not for the trial by fire of MLC. Devastation and loss have a way of showing us our TRUE blessings in life. I've seen major changes occur in attitudes... in coping skills.... in strength of character and commitment of many of the LBS' here that started out with BD. Changes for the better.

I work with YOUNG people.... their attitudes and belief systems are severely SKEWED by media propaganda and the lack of LIFE EXPERIENCE. There is nothing WRONG with them, but emotionally... they are immature. Nothing cures that EXCEPT life experience and hard times. I wouldn't with this on anyone... but I know now that I am on my way to being fully "grown up" because of it...

I have had to face my OWN weaknesses and insecurities....these weaknesses contributed to the breakdown of my marriage... but not only that.... they were MY part of the reason the foundation of my marriage was so shaky. I agree that the foundation is mainly made up of FAMILY and shared experiences and that COUNTS FOR A LOT.... they are the threads that can hold you together when nothing else is there... my marriage is literally hanging by these threads... currently there is NO "relationship", and no trust. There is a conscious DECISION by both my husband and myself to "dance with the one whut brung ya" instead of starting over with a NEW person.... but we will BOTH be NEW PEOPLE.... strangers.... we already ARE strangers in many ways.... as OW has been in the picture now for almost two years. She has had more of a relationship with him than I have... as far as communication and care go.... it may be FAKE, but it is MORE than I have been getting. She's had all the holidays and memories for this period... they may be good or bad... but they are there, and we have very few.

However, I believe that starting over from scratch with someone who is FAMILIAR to you is preferable TO ME, and to my husband. Like people who say they just don't want to have to go through all the dating and such again.... it is EASIER to start from scratch with someone whose clothing is already in your closet, I guess, LOL!!