[LisaLives]

I have been too busy to post, but have wanted to update my thread, though I start frequently, I find it hard to figure out what's important at this point of my journey, so I never finish.  I still lurk on many threads, though, and followed writingmom with interest when she reappeared. 

HB has advised her that by remarrying, her husband has closed the door on reconciliation forever and that she should stand down and move on.  I think, in summary, but is that interpretation right?  Do others think that?  There is a baby complicating this situation, but when is the door closed and how do you know?  Buggy's H has a baby but not a marriage, is that different?   

My H stated his intention to marry on BD and never wavered, and I took him for that word.  That was part of my never classifying myself a stander, though I can't say that when I chose not to stand, I was firm in that conviction or that it was easy to let go...  I am still not there yet... 

What do others think?  Will you stand through a marriage, a baby, a huge court battle?  Do you know, and how would you advise others?  Just curious, I was a little shocked and confused, and was wondering if something on the forum had changed--I never thought I would see that advice, and certainly not from HB.  I have not read all WM's post, but her H does not seem to be the worst of the lot...  But maybe I missed something important by not being here regularly, so I thought I would ask.  Thanks for considering, Lisa 

[kikki]

Hi Lisa
Good questions.
I always thought that standing was a personal choice.  That while we listened to and took advice from others, that ultimately, it was our decision when our stand was over or not.
These are our individual journeys, and these are our personal choices to make.

[Dontgiveup]

Here's RCR's blog that touches on this subject.

http://loveanyway.theherosspouse.com/?paged=30

As many are aware, a very good friend of mine had his MLCer ex-wife marry the alienator.  The marriage to the alienator lasted 18 months.  She started expressing regrets to my friend for leaving their marriage several months ago, and that picked up again in the past few weeks.  It is currently between 3.5 and 4 years since bomb drop.

His ex-wife's marriage to the alienator did not end his stand, nor would I personally advise anyone that it necessarily should if they want to continue their stand.  It is not for me to say what should end someone else's stand, or if anything should.

[Thundarr]

Hey LL,

Good to have you back!  I think HB has always said that it was wrong to stand when the ex had married someone else, because then it is as if you become the adulterer (or something to that effect).  I can't recall seeing her post that directly to someone recently but I know that her position is that once the ex has remarried then nothing should be done to disrupt that marriage or hope for its demise.  I guess it depends upon your convictions as to whether or not your ex remarrying should affect your stand.  I'm Catholic, as are many on here, and in our faith even if the person legally divorces us and remarries another the church still recognizes us as married.  So, barring an annulment, there is no earthly end to a marriage that was recognized by the church.  I hope I never get to that point but I don't know what I would do if my W were to remarry.  I'd likely seek an annulment and move on as the pain would be unbearable to stand in that case (not that it isn't already).

[NewBeginnings]

Hi Lisa ~  I have heard of some stories when the MLCer married OW and then divorced and wanted to get back
with their wife.  Rejoice Ministries also has some stories on that.   The chances of that 2nd marriage lasting is very slim from everything that I have read.   To me, if I were in that position and I wanted to stand, I would.  I wouldn't take that as the end.   

NB

[Writingmom]

Lisa,

If I may chime in, I believe that Standing is a personal choice and that none of us knows the outcome our MLCer will have, marriage, baby, OW, or not. 

I wasn't sure if I considered myself a true "Stander" or not.  I waffled a lot in the last 2 1/2 years since BD only to realize that yes, in my mind I was Standing for our marriage.

I do not recognize their marriage as being legit.  It is based on lies and deceit and betrayal.  The court may recognize it, but I do not.  My faith and my moral beliefs will not allow me to embrace this "union" as anything more than two lunatics playing house. 

I believe that reconciliation is possible when remarriage has occurred and I do not see a remarriage like this as being a respectable institution that should be honored.  There is no sanctitiy in OW's remarriage to H.  I will not respect it. 

I do not want to stir their pot or have an affair.  I simply want it to combust on its own as I'm certain it will.  But I do NOT recognize it as anything more than a joke. 

All this being said, I think HB's assessment of my sitch was prayerful and personal.  I know that her faith is strong and that she does not enter in to these discussions lightly.  I would not assume that it is blanket advice.  My H has been in 5th gear since BD, wasting no time in filing, having a baby, getting a D and getting remarried.  He is high energy and has never waned from that.  He's done it all to the extreme. 

He is still in Replay and choosing to believe the lies that she's fed him.  The extenuating circumstances make it difficult to think that he will want to or be able to return.  But please don't let this get in the way of your personal choice to Stand. 

I have come to believe that perhaps HB is right, painful as it is to consider.  But my H is not your H.  As we know, there is no one pattern or equation that we all can follow.  The end is a mystery.  Some will have happier endings than others. 

Just look deep within yourself for the real truth.  We can suggest and encourage and talk out loud on here, but this is your life.  Please don't be swayed by this instance as again, this is an H on Red Bull x 1000. 

Best of luck. 

[kikki]

I do not recognize their marriage as being legit.  It is based on lies and deceit and betrayal.  The court may recognize it, but I do not.  My faith and my moral beliefs will not allow me to embrace this "union" as anything more than two lunatics playing house. 

There is no sanctitiy in OW's remarriage to H.  I will not respect it. 

I do NOT recognize it as anything more than a joke. 

Writingmom - it reminds me of a conversation that I had with my H a couple of months ago.

H - 'We're SEPARATED Kikki'  (one of his favourite sayings, although I haven't heard it for a few months)

Me - If you call running  away and abandoning your wife and kids, and moving in with a woman that you barely know, a separation - well so be it.  But, that's not a separation, that's ABANDONMENT.

H - Well, what I'm doing isn't illegal or anything.

Me - Just because it's not illegal, doesn't mean that it is okay.  The damage you are doing to your children is legal, but it is appalling.

I agree - these remarriages may be 'legal', but they are nothing more than a farce.

[Covenant for Life]

My stand will end when Jesus takes me home.  A remarriage is not a "marriage" in God's eyes.  It is legalized adultery as the Bible tells us that a woman is bound to her husband until death(her first covenant husband, not a second, third, fourth)  Why can people not recognize this for what it is?  Because the Lord's way is the narrow way.  Because the Lord's way is not easy!!!!!.  A covenant vow is the one recognized by God.  How can one make a second life-long vow when the FIRST one is still in effect?  A civil divorce carries no weight with the Lord Almighty.  Neither does the legalized adultery that even churches now call remarriage.  Churches preach what our itching ears want to hear to keep congregants and to not lose money in the offering plate.  And Jesus will say, "I never knew you."

I love HB and know she is a true woman of faith, but I disagree with her if this is truly her stance on this topic.  Her stance is just not Biblical and believe me, I have studied these scriptures for 4 years.  God does not recognize remarriage as the world does.  In fact, his Word forbids it.  God always wants restoration of the covenant marriage.  Even if abuse, adultery, or any other sin has been committed, our Lord is a God of reconciliation.  One may need to separate for a time in order for God to work(or to protect yourself or your children), but one is to remain single if that happens.  The Bible is very clear.  Most people just refuse to follow it.

For those who want more reading on this, I encourage you to go to the Rejoice Marriage Ministries site.  And, read the Word of God as his Word does not lie.

[dollard]

I spend Christmas Day, with my friend and her family.
Her monther now well into her 80s is a LBS (they have never divorced, therefore still legally married)

Her H left her for ow 40 years ago.  He told his wife to wait for him,  he will get rid of ow and come home.  He went of vacation with his wife, when ow went to visit her family abroad.  He always told her, that she was the only one he loved.  But yet he stayed with ow.
Ow became pregnant and had a baby.  When the baby was 6months old, he told his wife he wants to come home.  His wife told him, that she will raise his child and that she wants him back.  He leaves right away, but changes his mind and stays with ow.

For the past 40 years he visits his wife 5 days a week.  In the evening he goes to ow.  The holidays he spends with ow.
15 years ago, was the last time he asked to go home.  That time she told him that she does not want him back , she had gotten used to live alone.
The old man continues to visit.  OW is aware that he still goes sees his wife. 
Now the LBS thinks, if the old man dies one day while with ow,   ow will not call the lbs.
If something happens to the old man while with the lbs, the ow will not be contacted.

The child with the ow is around 40, and has never met his 3 siblings with the lbs.

My XH married his ow this past August. 
from what he has said about her, no one would have believed he would marry her.
I do not consider myself a stander, because xh seems too lost to ever find his way out.
If by chance he does get a glimpse out of the fog, I am sure he will run back down the tunnel because the reality will be way too harsh for him to confront.

By the way, he has not admitted to marrying her. 

At this point of his journey.  He has been unemployed for one year.  Living in the USA,   He has no friends, or family  except ow, who recently got her green card. (perhpas he married her to be able to stay in the US)
He cannot come back to Canada, because we are divorced, his children do not talk to him, and he only has perhpas one friend left.  He cannot go back to Europe, because the ecoomic situation is worse than where he is.
Everyone in Canada is in awe of what this man had,  and threw away.

Everyday I think perhpas xh is so confused he believes he is happy.
Everyone that knows him thinks he has lost his mind.

[Phoenix]

From WritingMom: 

All this being said, I think HB's assessment of my sitch was prayerful and personal.  I know that her faith is strong and that she does not enter in to these discussions lightly.  I would not assume that it is blanket advice.

I have been reading Writingmom's thread and would agree with her assessment above. I do think HB was discussing circumstances specific to WM. That being said, this continues to be such a heartwrenching discussion and can create added stress and pain for an LBS standing for years while H moves on entirely. We can debate it from legal, moral and religious foundations, but in the end I hope we can open our minds and hearts to supporting the LBS in whatever decision they ultimately are forced into by the actions and decisions of their spouse.  I understand a covenant marriage, but I do not believe that God expects the LBS to suffer endlessly or to not live their life to the fullest, and even covenant marriages can be annulled or ended for cause. For example, some US states have covenant marriage laws that state:

What are the grounds for a covenant marriage divorce?
• The other spouse has committed adultery.
• The other spouse has committed a felony and has been sentenced to death or
imprisonment at hard labor.
• The other spouse has abandoned the matrimonial domicile for a period of one year
and constantly refuses to return.
• The other spouse has physically or sexually abused the spouse seeking the divorce
or a child of one of the spouses.
• The spouses have been living separate and apart continuously without
reconciliation for a period of two years.
• The spouses have been living separate and apart continuously without
reconciliation for a period of one year from the date of the judgment of separation
from bed and board was signed.
• If there is a minor child or children of the marriage, the spouses have been living
separate and apart continuously without reconciliation for a period of one year and
six months from the date the judgment of separation from bed and board was
signed; however, if abuse of a child of the marriage or a child of one of the
spouses is the basis for which the judgment of separation from bed and board was
obtained, then a judgment of divorce may be obtained if the spouses have been
living separate and apart continuously without reconciliation for a period of one
year from the date the judgment of separation from bed and board was signed.
Instead of an immediate divorce, a separation from bed and board may be
obtained. The grounds for a judgment of separation from bed and board are
(same as above).

While this may be a legal interpretation of covenant marriage, I understand that the religious perspective may be different. But it does seem that even clergy people who are very much in support of covenant marriages, do draw a line at some point in terms of understanding that there are circumstances beyond a spouses control that make a covenant marriage impossible as it requires both a man and a woman.

I am not advocating divorce or in any way diminishing covenant marriage, or suggesting anyone not stand, but I do hope we can be compassionate here. Yes, this is a forum for Standers, but even RCR does not make the blanket statement that standing is the right choice for everyone and in every circumstance. She understands that an MCL spouse may move on, remarry, have more children, etc. and that an LBS has a right to make the best decisions for her/his own mental and physical wellbeing,  financial security, physical safety, and the security and wellbeing of children.

The bottom line is that none of us can know or predict the way our life may go and we do the best to navigate it, be true to our vows, our spouses, and our children, but sometimes standing changing nothing in terms of our MLC spouse. Some never progress or exit the tunnel.

Our lives are precious gifts meant to be used and lived fully. If one can do that while standing and feels it is in their best interest and the best interest of their children regardless of how far removed the MLC spouse is, then that is the LBS's prerogative. If, on the other hand, the MLC spouse is so far gone, moved on, abandoned, started over without looking back, it may not be in the best interest--even in the name of religion--to put one's life and gifts on hold. 

Some people are able to live full, whole lives while standing indefinitely no matter how much their MLC spouse has moved on, and others cannot. I hope we can remain compassionate and supportive of both paths as neither was chosen by the LBS. Even if an LBS is the one to initiate divorce, it was still forced on them by the circumstances of MLC and they may have no choice for their own survival or that of their children.   This still does not close the door on reconciliation at some point down the road, even years into the future.

Peace and healing to all,
Phoenix