[HeartsBlessing]

 It's always the RIGHT thing to do to end a relationship properly before jumping into another type of relationship with someone else...besides the Bible speaks clearly about sex outside of marriage, AND sex with another WHILE you're married; and besides it being clear SIN and ADULTERY; it's also not pleasing to the Lord.

This is a moral issue that comes up ever so often...I started not to come in here because I figured the subject was a continuation of some of the other discussions on sex I've had with other posters not long ago.

But after the reading this through, I couldn't just let this pass without putting in my own two cents.

NONE of what I read, surprises me, I've read these discussions before; and honestly, I don't encourage people to go against their moral code; you should have an idea of the damage one can do to themselves; not to mention the diseases that can be caught that you can't get rid of, and sex nowadays CAN kill you; and this is so NOT worth the hassle.

I've been where you are; believe me, I have; and I know it's hard to do without affection, love, sex, and intimacy.

NOT my place to judge you for what you do/don't do; you're ALL adults, therefore accountable for all you do or don't do.

If you're going to do this, end your marriage NOW; then you'll be "free" to do whatever you choose; hopefully without guilt, or shame for ending your stand.

Going outside the marriage to simply have sex, can complicate things in a way you never expected, and you could find yourself in a situation where whoever you messed with might develop feelings for you, regardless of what you did to prevent this.

It's better to set these feelings aside for another time; in my humble opinion.  This is what I did...simply set it aside, and focused on more important things such as continuing my journey to get to know me better.

I do NOT advise dating or otherwise dallying with another during the crisis, if you are standing for your marriage; it can and will backfire; because the MLC'er WILL find out about and MOST won't accept it; and you can be sure that some likely will decide to walk away; REGARDLESS of what THEY do or have done.

Nothing done in darkness ever stays there; it always comes to light, given time.

I have admitted many times that I was lonely during his time of crisis; but I refused to dishonor myself with another......I always liked sleeping with a clear conscience at night.  Besides that, two wrongs don't make a right.

And unless you're made of hardened steel; GUILT and SHAME is something you would have to live with, once you cross a line like that; there is NO going back to what once was.

 I'm glad that I held myself to a higher standard during that time; it was never worth having a temporary pleasure that I knew full well would cause a lifetime of pain; not only for myself, but also for my husband that I stood for all that time.

I could never have lived with myself; had I fallen to that kind of temptation.

There's something to be said for remaining pure, untouched in that aspect, and having kept my marriage vows in spite of the fact that HE broke his.

Maybe other people can do it, and not feel guilty; but me, I couldn't have done it; and could NEVER do it.  I have too much respect for ME to go that far, and stoop that low.

I will hop off my soapbox now, and say no more. 

[kikki]

In general, women report that having their husbands become emotionally intimate with another woman is more upsetting than a physical affair, where men report that having their wives sleeping with someone else is more upsetting than an emotional affair

I still think it's a bunch of hooey- emotional intmacy??? With and MLCER?? Its a train wreck!!

They can't be anymore intimate with ow skanks  than they could with us; actually I think it may be even less!! They are mentally incapacitated!!

 The crap that comes out of thier mouths in our direction goes to the skanky hoes too. The skanky hoes don't have the HISTORY with them so MLCERS can pretend to be whatever they want to be.

But we know different- we KNOW them. And even with as "checked out" mentally as they are THEY KNOW WE KNOW THEM!

InThis - I second what you are saying here.  I feel like vomiting at the thought of either a physical or emotional betrayal by my H.  Both do my head and my heart in.
But - at BD my H announced ' I guess I am afraid of intimacy', and since has on many occasions said 'I am so sorry, I was not capable of having a relationship with you when I left, and I still am not capable of having a relationship with anyone'.
So - we would have to ask what it is that our spouses think that they are having with these other people?

I wrote about it somewhere on the forum, and HB responded 'No MLCer is capable of having a relationship with anyone, NOT even themselves .......  they are really lost during this time' and 'OM/OW are often used to work through or relive a time in the MLCers life gone wrong'.

Doesn't sound like emotional intimacy to me.  Sounds like needy, selfish, dysfunction.

[StandandDeliver]

It is perhaps an unfortunate consequence of the loneliness which has been forced upon us by our spouses. Some people may find this loneliness unbearable, others may find that celibacy is something they can cope with. It is not for me to judge.

I have to agree, it is impossible to fully understand another person's situation. In my case, lonliness did factor - not just because I had lost my H, but his abandonment forced me to reassess a lot of things about my life and I ended up leaving the place that I lived for the previous 3 years for a new job. So H abandoned me and moved right in with OW. Started having my kids to his place (no legal recourse for me to stop this where I was living). 6 mths later I moved away to get work and start a new life. Left my entire support network behind - all my friends ( couldn't move to my country of origin because the children would be too far from H for regular visitation, so also no family near me). It has taken some time to make friends here and to get a stable job. In the meantime, I had to get used to my H taking my young children for weeks at a time over the summer and I found that very very hard, particularly with my 2 year old. And an old friend came over to see me while my kids were gone and offered me some friendship, kindness, he cooked for me, gave me massages and listened. And yes, he also slept with me and told me I was amazing. It was good for the ego, I admit. He said some things that helped my stand too. He told me that when we were at school he remembered my laugh because it was always infectious - he said, "don't ever lose that ability to laugh, it is a gift". So, should i have divorced my H before I let this happen? Maybe. But I didn't and I will let God be the judge of whether I should have done differently. Did it end my stand? It interrupted it, yes, but it reinforced it. It reminded me that there are people that like me, and in my lonely, at that point friendless, environment with my little kids away with H AND OW playing happy families while I was job hunting in a new city miles from friends and family, an old school friend broke the lonliness and reminded me that I was remembered and liked and thought of by people who did not even know or care about my H.

Sex was part of that situation, but seeing my friend was more than that - and I was able to offer him something too, I gave him some support and encouragement for an endeavour he was working on that he felt no one believed in anymore. So we helped each other. The sex was good, but not the only thing. Did it shut the door to a return on the part of my H? Not completely for me. Anyway, there are cases of WAS's returning even though the LBS is in a new R, or even remarried. If our "moving on" was such a betrayal to them, then these cases would not occur. When a returning MLCer tries to make out that we were wrong  to move on (afterall how many of us heard, around BD "I hope you meet someone new really soon" - what did they think, that we would move on to purely platonic new R's?), it is nothing more than a deflection of their own culpability for destroying families and marriages in the first place.

[StandandDeliver]

HB, I hear what you are saying, but I really don't feel guilt or shame about the situation with my old friend, but I think that this was a very unusual situation where we both just knew that there was nothing long-term involved other than mutual friendship and respect (and finding each other attractive too).

However, I do feel remorse for the dating situation and I do know that it was wrong of me to start dating when I was ill-prepared to continue it. Not that this is a defense, but at that time I had decided to move my divorce forward, end my stand and leave H behind for good. Now, I recognise that this was a cycle and as I came out of it, I started to realise that I was in too deep and had made a serious error of judgement. So I do agree  that the dating relationship was a bad move and I regret it and whether or not H and I can ever be reunited, I was just not ready for a relationship with anyone. I have asked for God's forgiveness for this, and I have been as kind and honest to the man in question as I can be. As I said before, sex is probably not a good idea as it does complicate your life because it involves another person and their feelings and emotions. ANd one thing an LBS does not need is more complications in life. 

For what it is worth, I feel that my marriage is nothing but a legality now, but part of me still felt that it was wrong to be with someone when I was not yet divorced - but it was the emotional intimacy that I felt really bad about, not the sex, strangely. If I do decide to move on, I will want my marriage to be legally over too, and seeing as H has harped on about it continuously for a year now, I guess that is where we are headed. I wonder if the paper will change how I feel about starting a new R, or if I will still feel guilt?

[Mitzpah]

This aspect of my life is most anguishing and frustrating. Maybe not 'the' most, but it is definitely one that throws in my face the unfairness of this whole situation.
I have been thinking about forgiveness and I feel that this is something that I have real problems in forgiving. I don't find it easy to just put this part of my life on a shelf as HB suggests doing:

It's better to set these feelings aside for another time; in my humble opinion.  This is what I did...simply set it aside, and focused on more important things such as continuing my journey to get to know me better.

It is a daily battle.
I believe that standing and having a relationship with another person, which is intimate (emotionally or physically) is incompatible. That is my opinion.

It is just unbelievably hard at times, especially when you feel you have a 'vocation' for marriage as Xyzcf said to me the other day.

[Mac49]

It is entertaining to read the ongoing discussion from the Women's point of view because it illustrates the fundamental difference in how men and women view sex and intimacy. For a man (or most men anyways) they can have sex (physical) with any women they find attractive, however men cannot continue to have sex with that women unless they form an intimate (emotional) connection, due to the release of oxytocin(?) which is the bonding chemical. it is also why men find porn so engaging - it's physical but not emotional. It also why men cannot view the same erotic image repeatedly and be stimulated by it.

Women on the other hand want to be intimate (emotionally connected) before the physical (OK we'll leave drunken hookups out of the conversation). Which explains why most women are devastated that their partners could be emotionally connected to someone where as men feel the betrayal physically.

My X started with removal of the physical from our marriage as an instrument to disconnect, as she moved deeper into the tunnel and sought emotional connection with another (others) there was a further palatable loss of energy in our marriage.

The last time we had sex is going on two years, I cannot tell the last time we were intimate with each other.

My X is a clinger and has surprisingly started using the tools of reconciliation - Honesty, Transparency, and the ability to make and keep commitments. 2 years seems to be the replay timeline at least for women

Peace on your journeys

Mac

[HeartsBlessing]

This aspect of my life is most anguishing and frustrating. Maybe not 'the' most, but it is definitely one that throws in my face the unfairness of this whole situation.
I have been thinking about forgiveness and I feel that this is something that I have real problems in forgiving. I don't find it easy to just put this part of my life on a shelf as HB suggests doing:

It's better to set these feelings aside for another time; in my humble opinion.  This is what I did...simply set it aside, and focused on more important things such as continuing my journey to get to know me better.

It is a daily battle.
I believe that standing and having a relationship with another person, which is intimate (emotionally or physically) is incompatible. That is my opinion.

It is just unbelievably hard at times, especially when you feel you have a 'vocation' for marriage as Xyzcf said to me the other day.

I never said it was "easy" I just DID IT; knowing that if I fell, I would have been NO better than my MLC husband who had ALREADY fell to temptation of this kind and type.

HB, I hear what you are saying, but I really don't feel guilt or shame about the situation with my old friend, but I think that this was a very unusual situation where we both just knew that there was nothing long-term involved other than mutual friendship and respect (and finding each other attractive too).

S&D, this is called JUSTIFICATION; and there is NO justification for shattering your own marriage vows.

An MLC spouse does enough of that for themselves, the LBS CANNOT be a proper stanchion if they are also weak.

My moral code does NOT allow this to pass; and there is NO excuse for falling down IF you are STANDING for your marriage.  I won't apologize for what I know to be TRUTH.

I speak out strongly against this aspect each time I see a person who brings me the problem of the lack of sex, intimacy, togetherness, affection; as they are trying their best to stand for their marriage; but find it so hard to do because temptation dogs their heels each and every day.

Standing is NOT for the faint of heart; and self respect is something, once sacrificed, that's very hard to regain for oneself.

I've made many mistakes in my life, but committing adultery was NOT one of those; neither was failing to stand for what I deeply believe in.

I love each and every one of you; but I completely DISAGREE based on the Word of God, and my own moral code that going outside the marriage is justified because the MLC spouse has made this drastic mistake; has 'checked out' of the marriage, and because of the uncertainty of the situation.

I have to confess, I really don't and will never understand...and to even think of doing it, and then HIDING it from your MLC spouse, as I read the suggesting of this; makes you NO better than your MLC spouse who is already dealing with the ongoing consequences of being deceitful, and adulterous.

I know each one of you have to account for yourselves and your actions before God in the day of judgment.   

And it saddens me to the core that some of you have either fallen or are even considering it.

it is impossible to fully understand another person's situation.

My HUSBAND said this one time during his first bout of crisis when we were talking about his friend who was at the time hopping between his wife and the OW....he said that I didn't understand, considering that I didn't know what was going on, on either side.   While he was right about that, I STILL lit him up in heartbeat, told him it didn't matter WHAT was going on; there is NO excuse, nor justification for committing adultery.

SIN is SIN, and it counts the same; there's no "greater" sin, nor "smaller" sin; but it seems to me the worst part is sinning against oneself; and it would be hard to find a way to live with the guilt and shame, regardless of the kind of front one puts on for the world.

The wages of SIN is DEATH; and you can't afford for MORE death to occur in that aspect.

Regardless of WHAT is going on; there is no excuse for dishonoring oneself, and defiling oneself, when you took marriage vows that clearly said that you would keep yourself ONLY unto the one you married until death did you part.

And that is ANOTHER thing I read on this board sometime back; someone at one point was literally TWISTING the meaning of death; in the vows it means PHYSICAL death NOT emotional or relational...but they were trying to justify, again, the temptation to go outside of the marriage.

You, as a LBS spouse face the SAME temptations the MLC spouse does; and it falls to the LBS to set a higher standard, if only for yourself before the Lord who does hold us to a higher standard in this aspect.

He will forgive you for the asking if you fall; but you will STILL reap what you sow; you do pay consequences for your actions, whether now or down the road; for everything you do good or bad it comes home to you.

Again, if your marriage vows don't mean anything to you; END THE MARRIAGE NOW; but don't forget your journey to wholeness and healing which must still be taken.

Food for thought

[Returned]

I understand what you mean by a "vocation" for marriage. While I am adapting to being alone right now, I am still completely unable to identify with my H's newfound passion for being "single". I remember my days of being single quite well, and I find little to nothing wonderful about them. I found the fragility and instability of relationships disconcerting, sex before love unfulfilling, the tension of feeling like you were auditioning with the other person, and the realization that many single men were afraid of attachment.  Now it would be even worse as I would have to wonder what a new partner would think of the inevitable aging of my body. After all I have had children and I am over 50, so nothing is as good it was.  I was thrilled beyond words when I married, having someone to discuss all life's decisions with, having someone to trust. The loss of intellectual and sexual intimacy, stability, and security is something which I am still mourning, and I feel I have no talent for being single and never will. What in the world that my H finds so attractive about "singleness" is a mystery to me.

[limitless]

Mac49,

Thank you for that enlightening explanation of the differences between men and women.  I was struggling to say the same thing....but it didn't quite come out that way.   

I guess I am like most women....I need the emotional connection and was devastated that my H found that connection emotionally with someone else.  I am just so typical.....

If we can keep our emotions out of this (no pun intended) - this is actually a good discussion topic - as this is life.  LBS will, at some time, come up against this issue during their Stand. 

We learn through reading these threads and sharing our stories.  How not to react.  What worked in one situation.  What did not work.  (Does anything really work?  )

To deny that this issue exists is to stick our heads in the sand.  At least for me, I had enough of that prior to BD.

Hugs to all......thanks for sharing your thoughts on this.

L

[StillStanding]

Yes, it's unfair that our MLCing spouses seem to get to play and have sex without repercussions. But they really don't; there is always a price to pay down the road.

And yes, sticking to one's principles often means giving up things that we'd rather not. But that's the point of principles; if doing the right thing was easier than doing the wrong thing, why would people do the wrong thing?

It will always be easier to destroy than create.
It will always be easier to be lazy than industrious.
It will always be easier to give in to lust than resist temptation.

I miss sex. But I miss sex with the woman I married most of all. And if I get a chance at regaining the latter, I'll gladly give up the former. I think of it as an investment.