[In this for ME]

Shortly after BD a good friend, who meant well, actually told me I should get out enjoy myself and sleep with as many men as possible!
S&D
I already went through this when my first marriage ended the same way this one did; I was 23. I slept with anything in pants for two months. I was in so much pain and the men were soooooo easy. And I didn't want to sleep alone. Alcohol fueled the fire.  I woke up one morning and realized my self respect was non existant. So I stopped.

So I knew I wouldn't make that mistake again. But right now at the base level of myself I need to feel desirable sexually and I ain't feelin' it folks. Haven't felt it for quite a while and it's hard for me to define myself somewhat without it. I've already lost my name in identity due to the divorce I'm no ones wife..I'm someones mom..but that doesn't help the desireability much.
I'll work through it,,I'm not sure how but I haven't been sure about any of this,

[Voyager]

Ok weighing in here

But I feel frivolous so when I first saw sex and standing I immediately thought of a position


Could do that a few years ago but now I feel the need to lie down and rest...take the weight off you know???

I did the dating stuff. Lord knows why, but I needed to feel desirable I guess, wanted, potentially loved.

First guy. I persuaded him after a few dates to give it another try with his ex....not exactly the point of dating. I think I should have heeded the early warning signs
Good news was he followed my advice and is happily ensconced back with her and eternally grateful to me

Second guy was a mini octopus....hmmmm less said the better, embarrassement all round. Except I now know I just cant possibly date someone 2 feet smaller than me.

Third guy was definitely in MLC........

So point is, standing is a journey of self discovery and at points on the way we do what we feel we need to. Whether its right or wrong.

And I for one believe that God looks down, perhaps with a world weary sigh and says....ok you need to learn, you choose to do it this way. But I will still be with you, ready to mop up the tears and the mess and help pick you up to move on and learn.

 Whether you are a covenant keeper or someone who doesn't have faith there are similar lessons and number one is I believe to love yourself first and foremost. Then and only then can you give some of yourself to another.

Some will escape this altogether, holding themselves for their husband and that is fine. Others will explore and journey differently. You know I really believe God has compassion for all.

For me I now realise I don't want  to drag another along on a journey where I don't know the ending myself, how can I take another along with me no matter how brief or under what justification I may conjure up.

When I know myself, what I really want in the future, even if its only what I know I don't want ie no H, then yes I will let myself loose

[rediscover]

Rediscover--I find it interesting that you reacted so strongly to thinking you were being told to divorce.  Why was that so awful for you?  And if it is, how can you so easily think about having a sexual relationship outside of your marriage, but so wanting your marriage and family and not being sure if he could handle it?  I am not judging, I just find your strong reaction puzzling--generally people who are open about sex are rather blase about the legalities of marriage.   

We do define things differently, but I see in you a contradiction.  As far as I was concerned, I did not enter into any kind of dating relationship until my marriage was over--and that was at BD.  He told me he intended to divorce me and that I had 1-2 years of legal separation before the D would be final, so that I could get health insurance.  If he could have, he would have divorced me that day, but he gave me the time I needed to get stable. 

In my heart and mind, my marriage ended on BD, the paper was just a formality, but it seems for you divorce holds a greater meaning than sex...  Just wondering, Lisa

Having not read my story, I guess it's hard for anyone to understand where I'm coming from.
I absolutely adore the ground my H walks on.  The man I married is truly an amazing father.  He's an amazing man.  His friends (can't say his family bc i don't talk to them) ALL think my H loves me more than he loves himself.  Deep down I beleive that too.  My H is definitely in the midst of a crisis.  Is it MLC?  Everyone who reads my story thinks so.  Do I?  He is most definitely experiencing PTSD, and sometimes I think he does struggle with mid-life.  Do I think he'll come out of this? Probably not. 
Am I willing to divorce him? Never.  He would most definitely consider this as an act of pure hatred on my part.  He already believes I do not love him.  He has already stated that I will divorce him long before he ever considers divorcing me.  He has done everything he possible could to make me not love him over the last 16 months.  EVERYTHING.  The leaving, the refusing to take our children, the OW, the lies, the hiding, the betrayal he asked his family to create, the monster he has become.  Was he a monster when he left.  No.  He stood in my driveway and asked me to hold him. 
He definitely has feelings for OW.  Whether or not those feeling run deep enough to last is a completely different story. 
Will he care if I have sex with someone else, or will he forgive me was really not a direct question from me it was more of a retorical statement.  Right now, I could tell him I was having sex with the entire state of California and his reaction to me would be, "I'm sure you are" He has absolutely no respect for me. None.  He called me an effing b*tch in front of our D13 at my D10's birthday party.  He called me a ow in front of both our children when we ran into him and discovered his affair with OW.  Why'd he call me a ow? Because the night before his best friend and I went to a concert together.  His best friend is also my friend and has been for my entire relationship with my H.  When H couldn't be with me because of work or other responsibilities he sent this friend to be with me, to be there for me and to be my friend.  His best friend and I are friends. We are not romantically or sexual interested in each other, as a matter of fact he loves another woman very deeply.  Until H called me a ow last month he hadn't spoken to me since June 19th.  Not a word.  He sat through almost 3 hours of dinner with me and the girls and didn't speak to me.  He came to my home on for my D's birthday party and called me names.  He didn't even acknowledge that I was kind enough to include him. He didn't even show his own child enough respect to say hello to her mother when he was standing in her home.
Since August 2010 he has seen our children approximately 2 dozen times, I would be considerate to say he spent an entire month with them in the past 16 months. 
He ended our relationship when he held me in the driveway that afternoon.  He ended his realtionship with his children then too. 

Do I want to reconcile.  Absolutely.  I love the man I know.  Do I love the person he is now?  No.  He is a disgusting excuse for a human being. 

I wasn't ever saying I was having sex with another man.  I wanted to know how other people dealt with this struggle.  The judgement and automatic assumption that I am ready to give up my stand because I have normal human thoughts is not ok with me.  I wanted opinions, other stories, and support.  Not the sugestion that I am immoral or irresponsible and I should consider divorce. 
If it were so easy to have sex outside of my marriage I wouldn't have been asking for the support and guidance I thought I would get here.  I would have just had sex.

One thing I dislike so much about the human race is that they are so quick to judge, to blame, and to out anyone who does not support what they believe to be correct thinking.  To me, this site means I have a place to discuss openly all that we are facing in this crisis.  Our stories are all different, but we all have the same doubts and confusion.  I would never suggest anyone divorce because of a thought they had, or a struggle they are facing.  I was married before, to a man who almost killed me.  I fought for that marriage until there was nothing left to fight for.  Only to find out 15 years after it ended there was still more to fight for.  He gave me better advice than I've recieved from a single other person throught out this current crisis.  He said if this is truly what you want and what you believe in, put your foot in the door and keep it open with everything you have.

So, yes I did ract and take it personal when someone said I should consider divorce.  Divorce wasn't even a thought in my head when I opened a topic for discussion.

[limitless]

V,

Thank you for joining the discussion.  As usual, your words say so much!

Ok weighing in here

I did the dating stuff. Lord knows why, but I needed to feel desirable I guess, wanted, potentially loved.:

First guy. I persuaded him after a few dates to give it another try with his ex....not exactly the point of dating. I think I should have heeded the early warning signs
Good news was he followed my advice and is happily ensconced back with her and eternally grateful to me

I love this story!  Absolutely love it.  I think that could have been me - early on?  or maybe today, as well.  I would want to solve my date's previous relationships, too!   

Second guy was a mini octopus....hmmmm less said the better, embarrassement all round. Except I now know I just cant possibly date someone 2 feet smaller than me.

Funny, very funny.

Third guy was definitely in MLC........

  One of my biggest fears!   

So point is, standing is a journey of self discovery and at points on the way we do what we feel we need to. Whether its right or wrong.

And I for one believe that God looks down, perhaps with a world weary sigh and says....ok you need to learn, you choose to do it this way. But I will still be with you, ready to mop up the tears and the mess and help pick you up to move on and learn.

 Whether you are a covenant keeper or someone who doesn't have faith there are similar lessons and number one is I believe to love yourself first and foremost. Then and only then can you give some of yourself to another.

Couldn't have said it better myself.

Much love to you,

L

[In this for ME]

He called me a ow in front of both our children when we ran into him and discovered his affair with OW.  Why'd he call me a ow? Because the night before his best friend and I went to a concert together.  His best friend is also my friend and has been for my entire relationship with my H.  When H couldn't be with me because of work or other responsibilities he sent this friend to be with me, to be there for me and to be my friend.  His best friend and I are friends. We are not romantically or sexual interested in each other, as a matter of fact he loves another woman very deeply.  Until H called me a ow last month he hadn't spoken to me since June 19th

Re-
 Again here I go with a book  Sorry but me having no real frame of referance for any of this MLC crap that makes no sense. I insist somewhere someone must have written something to identify what the problems are in relationships in general.

You said your H loves you more than himself: then there is self esteem issues ( I think it's safe to say it's a standard MLC torment)

Maybe he is processing your friendship with his friend an EA.

 I'm not passing judgement.I'm not saying it is an EA in the romantic sense.

 I know for me I have no male friends because the sex gets in the way. Now maybe that's just me but I have NEVER had a male around me that did not express the sexual aspect of his interest. I'm not saying this because I am "All that" because I am not. I'm 52, short, blonde, and now just a bit overweight.

 I do not have friendships with men. I don't spend time with other men or talk to men on the phone or get any support from other men as it takes away from the primary relationship. And I believe this works the same way with men. Men spending time with other women is a recipe for disaster,

Exskanks exfriend kept calling ExH I saw no reason for the two of them to be friends..the important part was neither did exh so it needed to end. If he had needed the friendship I would have walked. It wasn't because of how he would function in the relationship with her it, the question for me would be : What's going on in HER head.

Men in general need to feel needed- maybe it's safe to say we all do but men really do. They identify being male by being needed by a female in most cases.

The book I read that has renforced these views is called Emotional Infidelity How to Avoid it and 10 Other Secrets to a Great Marriage. ( Funny huh? me wanting to know secrets to a great marriage; and here I am divorced  )

It's take on male female relationships is pretty traditional but maybe that's what's lacking in society today. I'm really starting to think so.

[StandandDeliver]

I wasn't ever saying I was having sex with another man.  I wanted to know how other people dealt with this struggle.  The judgement and automatic assumption that I am ready to give up my stand because I have normal human thoughts is not ok with me.  I wanted opinions, other stories, and support.  Not the sugestion that I am immoral or irresponsible and I should consider divorce. 
If it were so easy to have sex outside of my marriage I wouldn't have been asking for the support and guidance I thought I would get here.  I would have just had sex.

Rediscover, please don't feel so bad about these questions. I too think that they are natural.  Sex is part of a marriage, part of intimacy, trust and honesty. In MLC those things are broken, not by us, but by the people we love most in the world. The world is a complex place. It is not America or England, or Azerbaijan. It is huge and it is diverse and it is complicated. I do not have anwers but I do know this; I spent my formative years, my childhood, moving around our globe. I believe in universality. I believe in right and wrong. All cultures have this concept. In some the concept is biblical, in others it is islamic, in others it is tribal, or buddhist or... the list goes on.... The core principal stays the same. I believe in the golden rule "treat others as you would be treated yourself". For me that is a guiding principle.  sleeping with an old friend who knew the score, I did not hurt anyone. I had an intimate encounter with a worthy human being. I believe in spoken honesty with others. When H left and moved in with another person, I did not promise fidelity to him  in that context - it was a mutual agreement (once broken by him, or by me, the deal was off - in this case it was broken by him and our promises to each other were rendered meaningless (others see it differently, but I am a liberal and a human rights advocate and I believe in equality).  Divorce is not what we wanted. Of course. I see myself as divorced though. IN all but in paper.  You must do what i right for you, taking into account the feelings of the people that your behaviour affects. I had sex with an old friend. It was fun, we both enjoyed it. It was over. I had sex with a man who developed deeper feeling for me. More complicated. Stupid of me. I regret it.

It is hard to know the difference in advance. That is all I can say. I have no advice. Look after you and remember your core values. Hugs, S&D

[StillStanding]

So, yes I did ract and take it personal when someone said I should consider divorce.  Divorce wasn't even a thought in my head when I opened a topic for discussion.

I went back and re-read what I originally wrote to you.

I did use your post as the framework for my response, since you were asking the questions. You were asking a hypothetical question ("Why is it a double standard that H can have all the sex he wants with OW and IF I have sex I'm no longer standing? How can someone else tell me I'm not standing in this case?") and I intended my response to be equally hypothetical. I am sorry if I made you think that I assumed that you had planned to start dating or sleeping with someone.

But as I said before, I will not censor my advice or opinions to fit your (previously-unstated) sensibilities. The two times I suggested divorce in my post were entirely hypothetical:

1) If your spouse has done something that you consider completely unacceptable or a "deal-breaker", then I would suggest filing in order to protect yourself. It doesn't have to be adultery; it could be theft of money or property, abuse, exposing you to any number of communicable or sexually-transmitted diseases, or endangering you or other family members by engaging in illegal or risky behavior like selling or abusing drugs.

2) If you are considering doing something to dishonor yourself or your marriage vows and jeopardize any future reconciliation with your spouse, I think it would be a good idea to file for divorce and end THAT relationship before bringing someone else into your life. I dated someone who was separated from their husband for a little over a year, and there was a lot of stress in that relationship; her husband was involved with drugs, and she was trying to get herself and their baby son away from both of those influences. Their mutual friends kept sniffing around, and she had problems with money and other valuables being stolen from her apartment. She eventually got divorced and (as far as I know) moved past that time in her life, but it was well after we had split up.

Divorce is painful, and traumatic, and has long-lasting effects for everyone involved. I have counseled many people — on this site and others — to reconsider ending things when I thought there was a chance things could still be worked out, I do not suggest divorce lightly, and I have never told someone that they must get divorced, even ones in the kinds of situations I mentioned above.

At the same time, divorce does not have to mean that the relationship between two people is irrevocably ended. There are people here who are going through a divorce or are now divorced and plan to continue their Stand. Even though I would not, in general, recommend that someone file for divorce, having a divorce thrust upon them by an MLCing spouse may give both of them the space they each need to work through their issues and recover. I know this from personal experience; between the time I proposed to my wife and our wedding, my parents got divorced and remarried. (And this was not a "whoops, we made a mistake" remarriage; my father was having an EA with his first ex-wife, had moved out, and was moving to Washington to be with her. That relationship lasted less than 5 months.)

[Returned]

Voyager I just wanted to say that I think it is truly awesome that you talked your first date into going back to his wife!!!!Woww!Way to go girl! I have been laughing for five minutes.

[stillhopeful]

I told my H after he left "we may be separated but we are still married".

[In this for ME]

I told my ExH after we were divorced he could bring a wheel barrow full of papers in for me to sign and I'd sign them; but I still considered him to be my husband...