[NoRegrets]

Lisa--
Just curious, did your coming to terms with yourself here on the message boards translate into a transformation in your real life?

In other words, you say that folks here forced you to face yourself--perhaps you were a little defensive in the past, if I understand you correctly.

Did this help you in the rest of your life?

[LisaLives]

Lisa--
Just curious, did your coming to terms with yourself here on the message boards translate into a transformation in your real life?

In other words, you say that folks here forced you to face yourself--perhaps you were a little defensive in the past, if I understand you correctly.

Did this help you in the rest of your life?

Hell yeah!  But I am not sure if you're looking for something specific... 

[rediscover]

I waiver between wanting to stop standing for my sanity and continuing to stand for the same reason

Lisa
I know exact what I said, I don't need to go back in a week and re-read my posts.  I was very clear from the very beginning that I do consider not standing- for my sanity. 
However, I disagree-judgement was placed on me and others who have thought about sex outside the marriage, have already had sex outside the marriage, or had sex with the MLC'er. 
Or joked about having sex with others on the board.
For the most part, this board has stayed a safe non-judgemental environment.  On occassion, it has become a battle ground where moral values come into play.   The topic of sex is definitely a battle ground.  So many people have feelings about what the MLC'er have done to them and they are taking that hostility out on others.  Take it out on the person you are angry at. 
I reacted because this is not a place I want to come and be judged.  Bottom line.
You can tell me all you'd like that based on your experience, your action caused this reaction. 
You start telling me if you do this, then you should do this because of this, THIS IS JUDGEMENT. 

Also, Lisa I don't know your story, but am I clear you are a non-stander? 

[StillStanding]

I reacted because this is not a place I want to come and be judged.  Bottom line.
You can tell me all you'd like that based on your experience, your action caused this reaction. 
You start telling me if you do this, then you should do this because of this, THIS IS JUDGEMENT. 

Rollercoasterrider — the woman who created, owns, and maintains this forum — has suggested that divorce may be necessary to protect one's self. She speaks often of a friend for whom Standing was not only a bad idea, but created so much stress that it literally killed her.

If you are looking for a place where the word "divorce" is never uttered or contemplated, then this may not be it. Or do you want to tell RCR how to run her own site?

[StillStanding]

And frankly, you claim that this isn't a place where you come to be judged, but you're awfully free with judgments of your own.

You've accused people who suggest divorce of being secretly angry at their MLCing spouses and lashing out, with absolutely no basis in fact. You certainly don't know anything about my life or my Stand if you believe that's what I'm doing.

[StandandDeliver]

It is absolutely true that standing may be the wrong option for some people. Nonetheless, with MLC I would never suggest to someone that they should "stand" or that they should "divorce".   The decision on how to deal with the complexities of MLC lies with the LBS.

I guess that what is at debate here is more a question (which different people answer differently and this site, to some degree, allows for that) about what "standing" is.

For some, it is taking a moral stand to maintain an existing marriage and uphold existing marriage vows despite the fact that the MLCer is not doing so and has left the marriage. The more you adhere to Christian doctrines about marriage, the more likely you are to be in this first group, I am thinking. 

For others, it is simply a decision not completely slam the door shut on the possibility of reconciliation one day by maintaining a civil and compassionate attitude to the MLCer, but seeing the marriage as completely finished from the moment the spouse walked away from it. For those who are spiritual, but not really religious (or even agnostic and atheist) it may be more likely that we see things in these terms, although I am not making a blanket rule!

RCR does state that this site is based on Christian principles, and I accept and respect that, but she also states that people dealing with MLC who are not strict Christians are welcome to join and I think that this is great because what we share in common as people is greater than the things that separate us. We all loved our spouses, we all desired monogamous marriages based on trust, respect and love, and we were all surprised and shocked by MLC and its repurcussions on our familes and each other. We all need support and direction and 2x4's -  but those things can be given with compassion and consideration, rather than judgement and condemnation.

I think that it is fair to debate these points, and of course we can not ever get far from the issue of divorce as for many of us it is a reality that we face everyday. However, I think that we can become so focused on our own point of view about who constitutes a valid or worthy stander that we narrow ourselves of to the great wealth of insight into human nature that a broader set of ideas exposes us to. We do not have to agree with each other, but I think that it is important that we try not judge each other too harshly. We are all dealing with the same thing, but we are also all living very different realities from each other and it can sometimes be easier to judge and condemn than it is to show understanding and compassion. I realise a fault that I often had within my marriage was a rigidity of thought that sometimes blinded me to another person's pain. I thought I knew all the right decisions and all the wrong decisions and that I would always make the right choice. I was arrogant, and I was wrong. None of us really know how we would react if forced to live out someone elses day to day reality. We think we do, but we dont. Honestly, I thought if H ever cheated I would slam a door in his face and never let him back. But at BD I asked him to stay and try to work things out...

[NoRegrets]

Rediscover, I'm finding myself exasperated with your accusations of being judged.

Frankly, everyone judges, and if they do not, they are bound to repeat others' mistakes.

Nobody is above judgement, and different people will judge you differently.

If you're here telling your story, it will be judged, so that appropriate advice can be given. Of course, the judgement given must be judged by you and considered, challenged, rejected, modified, or followed. It's all up to you. But it's just not nice to ask for help or consideration from others, and then react so defensively to it.

In my experience, those who cry loudest about feeling judged are those with the most to learn, and those who are hurting the most. I believe Lisa when she says she identifies with you, at least with the you that you are projecting for the rest of us. That Lisa reached out to you shows how loving she really is. That you are so quick to lash out at her points to some insecurity in your person, which is natural in your state. We're all here with your or have been where you are, and we might understand a little more than you are giving any of us credit for.

Frankly, I think the replies given to you in response to your reactions have been measured and patient and kind.

I hope you will have a change of heart and be patient with others here.

There is a lot of insight here and a lot of good advice.

[LisaLives]

Redi, You can hammer me all you want, I am not going to take it personally, but just think about what I said. 

And when I told you to take some time and come back to reread what you wrote, I meant it--and not as an insult.  I come back about every three or four months and read almost ALL my old posts and every time I learn something more about me.  I can read where I resisted, where I grew and regressed.  I can remember the pain and know that I don't feel it anymore and I can see myself more clearly--the pain, the shame, the fear--it's all there when you read between the lines.  But the key is you can only read between the lines when you are objective and you can't do it to your own posts until time passes.  We see things that you will see in your own posts somewhere down the road. 

So, yes SOIC, I am a much different person than I was on BD.  I know myself much better, my shame triggers, and my insecurities, I can see my projections and those of others much better.  I have always been a good listener and have often been called on to provide counsel to friends--a voodoo doctor once told me I have an unusual healing aura--but now I actually feel like I can understand pain and shame and fear in a way I never could before.  I am a better and stronger person for this mess, so no matter what happens, I am going to be okay. 

It's okay redi to work through the negative stuff here, just be careful not to lash out at the ones most able to help--most are forgiving, but we are all hurt souls and a bad lash in a bad cycle could scar for a long time...  Love and light, Lisa

[Thundarr]

Hey everybody,

Just chiming in here as it seems this thread has gotten a bit off-track, but I suspect it was never on the track it appeared to be from the get-go.

Lisa, I applaud you for your patience and understanding as it's obvious Redi is at a point where she's in alot of pain.  We've all been there, and many of use are there now.  Heck, I'm only in my second good day in a row after weeks of cycling down.  I may be only numb from all the hurt but at least it feels better than suicidal depression.  I'm not coming out in favor of lashing out, but I understand completely and would take no offense either. 

My suggestion is that we forget the title of this thread for a bit and focus on the issue at hand.  Redi, we are here and we care.  You have EVERY right to be hurt and angry at your H and we have all been there as well.  I see your strength in many of your posts and look forward to when you have found it once more.  Please try to put the feelings of being judged and persecuted by the wayside so that we can help you with what is really going on.  Again, we are here and we care.

Peace to you all.

[StandandDeliver]

I agree with Thundarr - sometimes the problem with written communication is that we react rather than respond. I think that Lisa has been RESPONDING and some others of us have been reacting. I also think that we have to remember how low we can all feel sometimes in this journey, how raw and battered and misunderstood we come to this site feeling. Those are all things we need to work on in ourselves and sometimes a 2x4 is just what we need, but other times I think some tlc and little bit of compassion is called for with each other.

When I read rediscover's posts, I read that she is feeling attacked. I don't think that people are attacking her, but she is feeling peoples opinions (some of which are strong and forceful) as an attack on her character and choices. I also feel that she is in pain - pain that all of us understand, and that pain can cause confusion about the way we view everything in the world and sometimes we reach out to others to help us through our muddle. Again the problem with writing, rather than speaking is that we don't see the compassion or kindness in another person's eyes, as they discuss how they feel about some of these things.

I personally do not agree with everything that people say on this board, although there is much wisdom to be found here and I also know only to well that I don't have all the answers! People here definitely do not all agree with me. A few months ago, I might have decided to not be honest, but now I understand that that is ok. People don't have to like, agree with or share my opinion, but that works both ways - I don't have to like, agree with or share their opinion either - I can discuss it with them and make my feelings clear, but it not my job to try to control their thoughts. That is what makes the tapestries of our lives so interesting, so complicated and so rich.

Thundarr is right, Redi - you have every right to feel anger, hurt and disbelief. Those feelings do not just disappear, and to get back to the original topic - they do not disappear, fade or feel any better for having sex with someone else. At the risk of sounding crass, having sex with someone else is little more than scratching an itch. It is the individual's choice and I would never judge you or tell you you ought to divorce if you do it - those things are your choice. But do not do it because you think it will alleviate your pain. It won't. I know from first hand experience.