[Thundarr]

Women may be more independent than men. They function better alone than men—divorced men have shorter lifespans than married men, but that is not true of divorced women. Can anyone think of MLCer women who are Clinging Boomerangs?
Guys, what are your thoughts on this?

I am not a "guy," but Rebel has what I have labeled an "UBER CLINGER."

  Summer

I agree about Rebel's W, and I think my W would come close to being a Clinger but is definitely a Boomerang at this time.  I'm kind of disheartened from RCR's post that most of us will not have restored M's (kind of knew that, but yeah) and about how women plan it out over years.  My studies of MWD would suggest the same thing, but honestly I think the chances of an R are probably just as good with a WAW as with a pure MLCer.  The tactics are the same, and both CAN change their minds.  Ultimately, only the Lord knows what will happen and I believe he can change things any minute of the day.  Our knowledge (even RCR's) is very limited at this stage of the game due to the fact that we ultimately represent only a small fraction of LBS out there and it seems that we all have a remarkable number of things in common (computer proficiency among others).  Return rates may be much higher than we think, and several factors may play a large part that we know nothing about.  Maybe I need to start on that book/ dissertation sooner rather than later....

[Dontgiveup]

Thundarr

If you read what RCR wrote about women may having been considering divorce for years, I think it's important to note that RCR wrote she is referring to women in general and not MLC.

I also agree with what RCR says about potential reconciliations.  But to throw my perspective in on that, I believe it has just as much to do with the LBS no longer wanting to reconcile as the MLCer not eventually wanting to reconcile.

[HeartsBlessing]

Thank you, HB, the post answered my questions.
I know I have faults, and things I can work on.  Some of the faults were mentioned by MLCer that these were reasons for D.  I know they should not be, they are not 'divorcable offenses'.

But nevertheless, things to work on.

You are MOST welcome, it had never occurred to me that people would take the journey to wholeness and healing as taking the "blame" for their spouse's MLC, until someone directly confronted me two years ago on DB, and asked me about that..

But, you know something?   Back in 2001, I even thought when people were trying to explain this concept to me, that they were blaming ME for what HE did.....I was asking WHY did I have to CHANGE when it was my HUSBAND that had done so much wrong?  So, you see, I'd been there, too.

What it actually took was telling me that change had to start somewhere, and it needed to start with me...that was how I 'got it'......the reason for the article written was to explain clearly what this journey entailed, and why; but you don't have to get "religion" or even get "spiritual" to find yourself. 

Another question I have is do most MLCers 'know' they are going through something?  or do they just think this is normal...  and it's perfectly OK to do and say the things they do.

My MLCer does seem less 'irrational' that some I've read, but do they 'know' it's not normal?

No, I wouldn't say they would think this is "normal" but hey, you start thinking what would be considered 'crazy' thoughts if you let them out, what would YOU do or say?

My husband was so confused most of the time, I wasn't sure if he were coming or going; and he knew this wasn't normal; but on the other hand, I KNEW him; and knew his behavior was NOT normal; although between his justifications and other kinds of rebellion I was seeing, I thought at first, he'd gone off the deep end...but that wasn't it at all.

His did start out in 1999 with a nervous breakdown brought by a wreck he'd had on his job that resulted as a fatality; NOT his fault, but this kick started him into the tunnel at that time.

Later on, MUCH later on, at several points he DID turn to me and say several things designed to let me know he knew something was wrong, but didn't know what; said he was confused, and wasn't sure even who I was at times...but, if I confronted him directly, that was ANOTHER story entirely.   They don't HAVE to have "labels" applied, NOR do they have to be told directly that something is wrong.

THEY KNOW.

They do know long before the bomb is dropped that something is very wrong; but they're not sure what it is.
This does NOT excuse their behavior; and I did hold my husband accountable as the crisis wore on, and I learned to set hard boundaries; this came AFTER the affair was done and over with.

I do know this for sure, they are AWARE of all they do at the time they do it; and most of it comes out later in the crisis....some of it when they're held accountable for their actions, and more of it, as they can and most do come forth on their own to speak of it.

Some speak all, some don't speak much, and some are very transparent; as each person is different, each crisis is different what one will do, another will not, and there are various differences in people to account for, too.

I hope this helps.

[HeartsBlessing]

HeartsBlessing said that a transition can morph to a crisis, but it cannot go back. What that means in how I explain it is that a crisis-level transition does not goes back to being a non-crisis-level transition. But the tern transition applies to both, the crisis is a type of transition.

RCR is right, BUT; once it goes to crisis level because of the mistakes that are made that puts it into that category, sure, it winds down, eventually, but the mistakes made that led to the DAMAGE done is what marks the Transition as having been termed as a true crisis for not just the MLC'er, but the LBS, as well. 

This calls upon the LBS to accept various aspects that IF the MLC'er had kept this a transition, they would NOT have had to accept, such as having entangled themselves in an affair, or various running behaviors that really do put the marriage on the line.....no excuses for these at all...and the MLC'er should consider themselves fortunate the LBS was/is willing to accept and embrace these aspects...

NO ONE should EVER go through aspects like this..but it does happen in this way, and additional aspects are learned by the LBS AND the MLC'er, as it will sometimes take serious a very mistake like this to really show the MLC'er the person they have in their LBS spouse.....I wish no one had to go through the affair aspect, but unfortunately, it does happen; and so, because I've faced it myself, I make an effort to help the LBS understand a few other kinds of aspects that are added on when an affair has been had or is ongoing.

Until I  or someone else can guide them PAST and into a  certain point of ACCEPTING, EMBRACING and FORGIVING what all has happened, the WHOLE marriage stays in CRISIS..in danger of completely falling down.  And it's even hard as the MLC'er continues to face the issues within themselves, the LBS can get tired at ANY time and decide to quit...of course BOTH people can decide this at any time; but I encourage people to stay together if at all possible, it's worth it, I know,  I was there at one time, too.  If some of us can move past the worst parts of this, others can too, and this is the encouragement I also work from.

There are additional mistakes/damage to atone for; that cannot be undone...therefore, IMHO, I was never able to see my husband's crisis as a true transition again...although, he did 'transition' on through in that kind of aspect, making the necessary changes and did finish coming through whole and healed.

Because of the additional damage he'd done to himself through his actions during both times,  plus the refusal on his part  to face ALL of his issues the first time;  it took that much MORE time for him to come through.

Although, I went through for 7 1/2 years, mine did stay a Transition; I didn't put him through even a fraction of what he put me through; as I never ran away; nor really scared him like he'd done to me...and yes, I DO remember..what took me so long was in part, all of the issues I faced, but also because he kept pushing me and hard; not to mention "grabbing" onto me, and trying to reason with me

RCR, this thread is moving so fast I can barely keep up, LOL, so, I didn't even know you were here at first...have a great vacation.

Quote from: HeartsBlessing on Today at 01:44:05 PM

    You know, I'm not one to push religion, honestly, but you will hear me speak of the Lord many times; I'm a believer who believes but that does NOT "color" what I see in people.

Really? Because that sort of phrase can be taken another way—a positive way! Maybe your faith is why you color people beautiful.
Religion is a beautiful thing, but we are human and we so often use it to judge others while self-righteously inflating ourselves that when we talk of it, sometimes we talk of how our religion doesn’t affect or influence our view of people—because the idea is that it would have a negative influence. And sadly people use it to pain people ugly—but it just reflects back.
But HeartsBlessing, I know you pain people with beautiful and I think that it is a God-Brush in your hand.

Painting all people 'beautiful' RCR is what I DO; and it's not because of "religion"it's one of the many positive aspects of ME, and who I AM, and a true reflection of the gifts He gives me to use.   I'm NOT a perfect person; I get sick, I get mad,  I get tired, and I'm HUMAN, just like anyone else. 

But I LOVE people, and because I really do love people, it reflects in my words, I would always hope people would see that, but sometimes I'm seen as one who is always supposed to be on the "level", and while I'm honest, I'm a person, too...and I have feelings, dreams, wants and needs, too.

I try my best NOT to shove basic religion down people's throats, and I respect people's beliefs, or non beliefs, it doesn't matter to me, people are people, period...that's why I say "religion" does  NOT "color" my view; but my LOVE for people does, indeed, color my views of people, and I think I see what you're saying in that aspect.

What I see is people that need love, support, help, and I give everything I know how to give of myself so people can feel better about themselves; it breaks my heart in pieces to watch people in pain, knowing I can't do much about it except post what comfort I can give others, because I know how it is, I've been there.

But, I won't lie to people, and tell them things that give false hope; I will always try to post good hope right along with whatever else I know I need to be honest about; and pray when it's all done.

I used to have people tell me a great many negative things way back in the day, as I don't "fit" a certain view of what a christian is supposed to "look" like; and no kidding, I was told several times I will go to Hell, because I wear britches(of course, that made me mad at the time,LOL))....look, all of you, I smoke cigarettes, I drive a truck for a living; I've often felt many times that I never deserved a fraction of what He gave me to use; but I have been what He has chosen to use..and it has always amazed me.

You tell people you believe in God, and most automatically assume you're a Bible beating judgmental sort of a person, who sets themselves high above others, and I do NOT do that to people.

I see that HeartsBlessing responded already. I’m sorry don’t have time to read it in detail. I was actually supposed to use part of my time at the computer to review the houses before going downstairs for my exercise and I instead spent it reading this thread! But it was fun.

I simply went and copied my LBS Journey Article from the self focus section to further help people with their understanding of the journey at hand.

OK, Thundarr, catch my next post.

[HeartsBlessing]

Thundarr,

So, my question to HB and all is whether or not I'm doing wrong by choosing to go ahead and be her friend.  My training would definitely reinforce the belief that partners must be friends first and foremost, but as I've said many times rules sometimes don't apply in this.  My logic is not only my training but the fact that she IS still being a parent (limited and under my supervision, granted) and is not subjecting me to outright abuse or an OM at this time at least.  I've heard several say that she has to "miss me" and having us do family things together would certainly lessen that, but can it really hurt if I steel myself to prevent a cycle down?

If you can do it employing detachment without expectations it would be fine, BUT I really don't believe you can pull this aspect off, Thundarr..still, it's not up to me, it's up to YOU. 

You can only do what YOU feel, and for that you didn't need to ask for MY advice; I get total silence, which means it's up to YOU. 

So, do what you feel is right, Thundarr; you know her, I don't, plus, you know what you can handle; and He really isn't telling me anything at the moment on you.

It's up to you...

Not much help, but you did ask. 

Have a good one.

[summer progress]

From HB's post on Feb. 4

Looking within yourself is one of the HARDEST things anyone can do or ever will do. I can't tell you where to start, as everyone is different, but you can start by looking in the mirror of self-honesty; UNCOVER that mirror and look hard. Anyone who says they have NEVER made ANY mistakes in their lives is LYING to themselves AND to everyone else who knows and loves them.

Be prepared to "sort" out what you see with someone you trust who understands what you are doing. A Sounding Board is really important, someone who will be honest, and straightforward; helping you to begin see the areas of change that are needed within you; also they can help you effect those changes, making them permanent.
This is important work on yourself; DON'T NEGLECT IT, don't skip over it, thinking it's not important.

In time, as you progress, you will see yourself as you really are, seeing some VERY hurtful things, things you will NOT like.

I have a friend I am working with who got the BD over 4 months ago. First, I gave her a copy of Conway's book so she would understand a little about MLC. Then, I gave her the addy to the site's resources. She has read a lot, but she does not want to join the board yet. She has not grasped the concept of mirror work yet. She believes that everything is HIS problem and how HE looks at the marriage. She does know he is in MLC.

The reason I am bringing this up is because I keep reminding her of some of the things her H said in his "crazy" statements... too many questions, nagging, not being able to forgive, control... He listed those things over the past few months (many times more than once). When I bring up her needing to stop asking questions.. she questions me (Why should I not be able to ask what I want to know?). When I bring up her having to let him go to make his own mistakes, she doubts him (But he has never been able to make good decisions.). When I bring up not worrying about the OW, she doubts me (I want to contact her. I don't know if I can forgive this. If the shoe were on the other foot, he would not forgive me.). Her need to be in control of everything is soooo strong. She has a lot of mirror work to do, but is still so concentrated on what he is doing or what he is going to do that she cannot grasp the importance of her own journey.

When I tell her things that I see in her that he has brought up, she thinks I am being mean. I tell her that I am not trying to be mean or hurtful, and I try to help her understand that these are things she will need to work on. If not for her restored marriage, then for her next relationship, and for her to be able to become the person she is supposed to be. I get.. Why do I have to change? There is nothing wrong with me. He is the one with the problem... She is fighting her own journey.

Some people will not work on themselves even when they are shown their own R flaws. Some people run from themselves just as their MLCer is running. Some people have a problem with looking inside and seeing that THEY also need to change. I can say that working on myself has been on the of blessings of this whole mess. The gift of time is such a true statement. We have this gift... what will we do with it?

Just my observation..
Summer 

[justasking]

Summer

Your friend may not be ready to start her mirror work yet or understand it. She is very early in her journey and is still hurt and angry plus shocked at what has happened.

I believe that our mirror work evolves for each of us in our own time. We an support others but only when they are ready.

My major mirror work was undertaken 2 years after BD, although I had done small amounts leading up to that time. But we all undertake it when our psychi is ready. For some it maybe months and others years. The deeper we dig the painful things can be and early on IMO we would find it to hurtful.

Some LBS never complete the necessary mirror work either because they don't believe they should or because what they need to do is so painful they never reach the end where there is peace and understanding.

Just my thoughts on our journey as an LBS.

xx

[limitless]

.Thanks Thundarr for starting this up and good to see (sorry for the sitches of course) some of you jumping on board here.   Dang man, you ruined my total image of wrestling.  Now I feel like a kid who just found out that the Easter Bunny and Santa Clause is not real.  Real downer dude...LOL.

I guess we could always ask John Stossel......

L

[Thundarr]

Great John Stossel reference, L!!

Funny bit of trivia here about that - the wrestler who hit him was "Dr. D" David Schulz, who left wrestling shortly after that and went into truck driving.  My previous career was manager of a tire chain and one day I was at our truck tire center and thought the driver getting his tire fixed looked really familiar.  Guess who it was?  It was Dr. D!!!  That's his real name and when he signed the invoice I almost freaked out.  I kept thinking that this guy main-evented against Hulk Hogan at Madison Square Garden and now he's getting his tire fixed at one of my stores.  I still remember the moment vividly.

Yes, I'm a geek and I grew up watching wrestling (and still do).

Anyway, back to MLC madness.

[hobo1]

Summer and all.

With regard to your comments on 'mirror work'... 

When you bring up the need to do 'mirror work' and then you say that MLC is not her fault, her H would have gone through MLC anyway, it just is contradictory.  Especially if it is mentioned at the same time.

I know I have flaws to work on, I am quick to anger, I took things for granted, I focused a lot of energy on making sure our financial budget is adhered to....  I didnt exercise enough etc...  all are flaws that I can easily work on.

But when you bring those up at the SAME time as speaking about the MLCer and what he/she has done, it DOES sound mean.  I know it' not your intention, but I can see how it can be taken.

I think what she needs now is someone to listen and understand her, not tell her - her own flaws.

When I just got the BD, my MLCer told me ALL my flaws for the past 22 years.  Well, it would help if she told me while I was married, and while she still loved me, then I can change.  After she told me, I vowed to change....  It was not enough....

When you tell an LBSer, that this MLC is not about them - but then you have to do mirror work and work on yourself...  then it IS confusing.  EVERYONE has flaws, everyone has mirror work to do - not just the LBSer...

Just my thoughts.