[Dontgiveup]

I would gladly endure this with my W rather than having my family broken

MLC is a journey they must do alone.  I believe RCR calls it a journey of self discovery.  If they seek the help of the spouse, it's probably not MLC.

and isn't it possible for a crisis to morph into a transition?

No.  I like Conway's differentiation of a crisis and a transition.  A crisis happens when the MLCers behavior goes against the core values they have long held.  Once this happens, it is impossible for it to turn into a transition because it's already a crisis.

I know my W's coping skills (or rather lack thereof) contributed to this but I'm unaware of any serious childhood issues.

Where do you think her lack of coping skills originates?  Coping skills....or lack thereof....IS a childhood issue.
 

[Mamma Bear]

 Hi All, I asked myself recently 'what's changed in me?'  Wondering why I felt so much more at ease.   It is acceptance. I now view OW as more of a fixture in the apt H ran to in an effort to get away from me. My mouth and body language were too much for someone having an identity crisis.
    I can't even relate to 'not knowing what I want' never mind 'not knowing who I am'
    They'll figure it out. If we're quiet enough so they can think of it.

[HeartsBlessing]

Thundarr, just for the record, I did not come into this thread to challenge you or anyone else.

This thread has quickly become an all-star game, with STP and HeartsBlessing both chiming in.  It kind of reminds me of when Hulk Hogan first met Ric Flair and Flair had the WCW title with him.

I don't recall signing up for something like this...but...moving right along.

HB, I agree with you on both counts (and you're right about STP being a big influence on me, as are you) but I do have a question about whether or not the return can happen successfully during the crisis.  If you're saying 5-7 years then that would be in line with peri and/or a transition but does that whole time have to be crisis?  I would gladly endure this with my W rather than having my family broken, and isn't it possible for a crisis to morph into a transition?  I know my W's coping skills (or rather lack thereof) contributed to this but I'm unaware of any serious childhood issues.  U think her problem is mostly hormonal.

NO, a crisis can NOT "morph" into a Transition, only a Transition can "morph" into a crisis...you only get ONE chance to come through without making the mistakes that you cannot take back, or undo.

Once a Transitioner crosses the line into having an affair, doing drugs, etc...their Transition then becomes a crisis and the mistakes they are making complicates the situation worse for THEM; as they are hurting THEMSELVES, and their guilt, shame, etc. increases....and it adds TIME onto what they are enduring; because they inflict deeper self wounds within.

They RUN away because they cannot take the pressure within, and regardless if they leave physically or not, they will STILL leave emotionally; they are LOST, to themselves AND their spouses until THEY figure themselves out.

A return, whether "early" or not,  as you've already seen within various threads over time,  CAN happen successfully during the crisis, but the crisis itself is still NOT over until ALL the issues are faced within that contributed to and helped caused it; and these issues reside within the MLC'er.

In regards to hormonal problems it is always possible to go through Menopause AND STILL have a MLC/MLT; as these are NOT the same type of events......the Menopause is physical and due to hormonal imbalances/changes, the MLT/MLC is EMOTIONAL with contributing chemical changes within the brain that can and will "mask" various mental illnesses...these are considered TWO complete separate events for people, as they were for me, too...AND my husband, when he went through.

I would suggest you RESEARCH for your further answers IF you wish them.

Thundarr's very first thread is here:

http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=1408.0      And it leads on to his next thread, and his next thread..you can read for yourself what I and others have said to him...

Thundarr, apparently, you have quickly forgotten, that given a little bit of time, I can find the posts I wrote that REFUTE your saying I said her problem was mostly hormonal....I did NOT say it was mostly that;  in fact, I said this within the very first thread you wrote:

Re: My MLC story
« Reply #66 on: August 01, 2011, 02:12:07 AM »
Hello Thundarr,

Here I am to throw yet another spin/perspective on this life's trial that is called MLC.

Sorry to see you here; but glad you made it in; hold on for the ride as it's one of a lifetime that NO one wants to take, deal with, go through, but the end will come, although it takes time.

Ready will make a great mentor for you; he's a good man, a wise man; and one who really does know his stuff.

The very first thing you need to know is this: there is STILL hope as long as you love your wife, and are willing to stand for your marriage..with that said, prepare to let go of your wife, and commend her into the hands of the Lord, because there is NOTHING you can do for her right now...she is on a journey that you can NOT help her with...you can only help YOURSELF.

One thing that I see clearly is the fact that your wife IS already deep within the tunnel of MLC; has been there for some time. She entered LONG before the divorce was filed and before your Bomb Drop was experienced.   

An MLC'er, based on all cases I've seen in my own experience, and I've seen many, begins the process of entry into the MLC tunnel from the  very FIRST stage which is Denial; Anger drives them even further within..and they will see the FIRST issue they will face not long before the beginning of Replay...it is usually the most painful event that has happened within their life, and it's "shown" first while they still have the strength to begin to face it.

Unfortunately, the ground has also been laid for their running away; and because they really can't face themselves, most of them run away, using what is known as "running behaviors" that will transform what starts as a Transition into a CRISIS.  These running behaviors, which are listed within the stages of MLC that I wrote, CAN, but don't always, include the MLC affair in order for them to try to escape and avoid themselves, as this is what the crisis is all about; facing themselves, and the issues within themselves.

In order for them to navigate successfully through, emerging whole and healed,  they must face, resolve, and settle, ALL issues within themselves, including the aspects of each issue; these will show as individual "children" within themselves.

In short, as children, trauma was experienced, and because of this trauma, a "piece" of the psyche is "broken" off deep within. Because, as children, no one has the necessary life "tools" to deal with traumatic experience, these are stored for a later time, resurfacing as individual issues, evidencing as individual "children" during the Transition or Crisis that comes about.

These can be seen clearly as childish behavior is seen within the MLC'er; as they are struggling with an issue at hand within, or they can be even rebelling in a way they may not have been able to when they endured whatever traumatic experience or even multiple experiences, they had faced within their childhood...there may be one or many children that makes an appearance; that is up to and within the individual person.

Even I never knew just how many "children" had resided within my husband for certain; although I saw three, and I truly cannot remember just how many evidenced within me, but once each "child" is faced, resolved, and settled within, is reintegrates itself back into the psyche never to be seen again.

They can show up at any time, although they are NOT present the entire time of crisis/transition.  If they did, the MLC'er could NOT function at all, but it's not uncommon to see the these "children" come and go as often as within minutes or even seconds...I can remember rubbing my eyes at one point, as I saw all  three AND my husband flash through his eyes in less than five minutes at one point.   Our 15 year old son saw them too, so I KNOW I wasn't crazy or "seeing things".

You're already seeing "rebellion" tendencies within her that evidence as black and white bipolar symptoms, she's at one extreme or the other, and it's confusing to her, but she's also confused, as like it or not, the typical MLC'er IS aware of what they are doing when they are doing it, but their minds are SO confused, and filled with fog they don't know which end is up half the time.

They truly are like a ship within the fog missing a compass, as direction means nothing to them for a time, they are LOST, and the MLC Mothership has come and taken the stable spouse you once knew to MLC Land, and there's no telling when they will return, IF, indeed, they do return.

As long as she continues to be angry; that means two things, she is still trying to keep the 'demons' within her, if you will, at bay from herself, as I suspect she's been already seen this first most painful issue, and this has  terrified her, which ALSO comes out in anger.   This is helping to fuel her running actions, her comments about running out of time is evidence of continuing denial, her lawyer "friend" that may or not become a PA for her is only a symptom, NOT the cause.  It also means that she's got one foot in Anger, and one in Replay; and she is STILL trying to stay in Denial of it all.

MLC involves an emotional and spiritual struggle within the person going through, it's a growing time within the individual in question.  They are at odds within in every way imaginable, as NOTHING makes them feel better, and everything they try will just make them feel worse, and even worse than that, they are looking to OUTSIDE sources to validate or even "fix" them, when honestly, the struggles, the answers, and the issues that need facing are contained WITHIN themselves..

This journey can take 5 to 7 years, some longer, some shorter, and the coming through is up to the individual going through, not anyone or anything else in the way of "outside" factors.
Even you know, as a therapist who counsels people in whatever aspect you counsel them in, that it takes TIME to reach more stable ground; and this is even true of MLC.

You were never prepared for this, as NO counselor/therapist I have ever encountered has ever  really acknowledged MLC as a true disorder, IF you could even call it that.   MLC has symptoms of a great many psychiatric disorders, and it's "mask" can change from one minute to the next, if not one day to the next.

NO MLC'er will go to counseling/therapy, or can even be helped by it; they don't think THEY have the problem, they think their Left Behind Spouse, and everyone else who doesn't agree with them has the problem...to acknowledge they have a problem means they must admit they are "flawed" in some way; and since they cannot accept themselves, much less face themselves while they are within the Tunnel, that's NOT going to happen.

They DON'T think THEY need help at all; and they don't WANT help...again, they are convinced that THEY don't have a problem...everyone else DOES.

From an occupational standpoint, as you well know, even counseling/therapy takes time, and one's journey to wholeness and healing as a result of said counseling/therapy takes time, to make a "parallel" here.

It's something to think about....I saw your comment about wishing you could be placed in "stasis" or "coma" until she came through, and though I really do understand how you feel, I'm sorry, it doesn't work like that, as I can well tell you....

I spent 7 1/2 years in a Mid Life Transition, this was the ONLY time I actually got to "miss" anything of my husband's  two bouts of crisis, as I missed MOST of that second bout.   This 7 1/2 years was MY time spent in the crucible/tunnel/transition, it overlapped on each end, TWO bouts of crisis my husband went through, simply because he did NOT face his issues in FULL within the first round, and set himself up for a SECOND round involving one last issue that had been the FIRST issue he'd faced, but, instead, tried to set it aside.  The crisis demands COMPLETENESS, and if it is NOT completed it WILL return as a recurring bout of crisis, or even as a whole other tunnel, depending on what's involved, what factors are in play.

I faced every last issue within my journey within the tunnel,  the FIRST time I went through, NOT because I was a 'better' person, but because within me, I somehow KNEW to get out, I had to get through, and every BIT of it had to be completed...and it was...I didn't suffer a recurring bout of crisis, but I found out that he was right in the middle of this secondary bout just after I passed out of the final healing phase of my Transition.

I don't mince words when I say we spent 11 years all told within this, and this was because of what my husband DIDN'T do that he was supposed to do; which was face every last one of his issues in full....and this was also further evidence that the journey within MLC; depended upon my HUSBAND as an individual;  just as it's up to EACH INDIVIDUAL to complete their journey in FULL.


The comment OP makes that you didn't break her therefore you can't fix her, is right on target, because she must fix HERSELF...there is NOTHING you can do for her, to her, or with her....you can't even "reason" with her, it's like talking to a brick wall that won't move, bend, or give way.

And the more you try to reason with her, the worse things will get, as again, like your Priest said, she's on a journey to find herself, but it's HER journey, NOT yours....she has put you on a path that was NOT of your own making, therefore this makes this journey ALL about you...just as her crisis is ALL about her.

In other words, the two of you are on separate paths at this time; she's on her path, you are on yours.  The hope is that eventually the twain shall meet and merge, but if it happens it won't happen until later in the crisis, when some or most of her issues are resolved within herself.

At this time, I will throw in a word of caution: If you continue trying to reason with her, or continue to argue with her, you may lose her completely, but then you may lose her anyway, as the crisis holds no guarantees of positive outcome...the only hope you have are the changes you've already started within, and you'll need to continue making these.

The only person you can control in this life is YOURSELF, and I speak from experience, when I say this was the FIRST lesson I ever learned within his MLC.

That same lesson socked home even further when I was navigating the Transition(that did NOT become a crisis for me) that was triggered by my husband's crisis....it takes time to complete this, if the individual comes through, and once through, the whole and healed individual is NOT the same person they were going in...change sweeps through them slowly....and they suffer deep pain and angst, as well as the confusion and fog I spoke of earlier in my post.

I do not post these things just to hear myself talk; I had the experience of counseling on MLC years ago during the first bout my husband and I went through, left after he exited that first bout, and yes, he did go all the way through, coming out of Acceptance into the Settling Down Process. which was interrupted two years later by his last and final issue that he tried to set aside without facing....in the meantime, I had left the other board I started with, having already gone into the TUNNEL myself of the Mid Life Transition; and my memories disappeared for a long time.

Once I found he was in the throes of this secondary bout of crisis based on his last painful issue, and after getting very angry about it, then deciding I had NOTHING to lose, and everything to gain by finishing what was started so long ago, I prepared to go through this last with him.   My memories from before, were restored by the Lord, and returned to post once again only this time on this board.

 My own journey was complete, I was whole and healed; all of the tools I had learned to deal with the next part of my life were in place..all that was left was my husband finishing.   He was an extremely stubborn man, and the issue that was holding him back?  The Issue was of his parent's divorce when he was age 7, he was unable to get past some aspects of that issue, although he had faced some of them, but he was stuck in full rebellion against himself, AND me.

Last year, he fell and broke his ankle, this was the catalyst for his second exit, as he was brought down in this way, and I watched him make his way across.  He made it out earlier this year, and I consider this journey worth EVERY step made to get to the place we're in...neither one of us came out the same; we are better people than we were going in..as change, growth, and becoming took hold of not just one of us, but BOTH of us.

I could have left him high and dry at ANY time, just as quickly as he could have left me the same way;  the choice was mine, it was always mine, just as it was always his choice, too.  But, I did NOT leave him; you do NOT leave your partner during the fire, as paraphrased from the movie "Fire Proof".

I had also gained a new respect for him when he did not leave me as I was going through my Transition.   From what I remember, he got back his emotional treatment of me in spades, but I did NOTHING to dishonor either one of us, though I wanted to and wanted to run away forever, amongst other things; I did nothing but face myself continuously during that time, I did NOT and do NOT want to go through this again.....I have experienced the deep, ripping, pain of Transition, and it's TERRIBLE, and gut wrenching at times, as well as seeming to be never ending.   

It was not all good, nor was it all bad, but it was the journey of a lifetime.

This is NOT an easy journey, it's NOT for the faint of heart; but I will say this for the benefit of all....you CAN end this any time you choose, you always have that choice,  but understand that should you decide to find another partner, you WILL go through this again with another, or even with your current spouse, as the learning won't be denied, we recycle what we don't learn, and come right back to it.    It WILL get done,  taking longer, and be that much harder; I know.....I've been there the WHOLE way, and then some.

I didn't have to cycle back through, but my HUSBAND had to; and it did, indeed, take LONGER, was that much HARDER on him...and he only faced the ONE issue that second time...I can't even imagine what it's like for the couples whose MLC spouse had more than that.

The Lord worked His Will throughout within BOTH of our lives, and I also see that Ready mentions the Lord in his writings..you should NEVER forget that He should always be the frontrunner of your life...develop your relationship with Him, develop that inner voice within that doesn't shout; that's also called your Intuition..learn to let go and let God work within your situation as a whole.

Learn to control what you can, let go of what you cannot; trust the Lord to know the difference, and put HIM first in your life, because in the longer run, HE knows the situation, and is more than capable of restoring your marriage; yet, you have your ongoing work to do while He does His...many things must come to pass before this Crisis resolves in which ever way it's going to resolve.

Yet, it's NOT what you're facing, it's the ATTITUDE you learn to face it with that counts the most...and your growth, change, and what you will become as a result is more important than your marital status, so again, let her go, and work on yourself....you can do nothing for her at this time....concentrate on becoming the best man you can be for yourself, and your family...that is what is really important, not what your wife is doing/not doing.

Take your journey, work on yourself; learn about your life, above all, learn about yourself.

Your wife is on her journey, you are on yours, you can do nothing about hers, but you can do something about yours.

I hope this helps.
« Last Edit: August 01, 2011, 02:15:38 AM by HeartsBlessing »

And within this one, as well:

Hello Thundarr,

Quote

    Hey HB - You certainly are a prolific typist!! LOL!


LOLOLOLOLOL!!  Hey, dude, I "resemble" that remark, you got a little over three hours of my time last night!!!  LOLOLOLOLOL!!

It's actually quite heartening for me to read the opening joke in your post, and I'm good natured enough to take ribbing from anyone....I wax on quite long sometimes, but the information is what's important, not so much the length....and to offset the length, I give INFORMATION, as I see it. 

Thanks for the laugh, I needed that this morning; now, I KNOW for sure you'll be OK.   Some people, believe it or not, wouldn't have said something like that to me this early on in their journeys.....I think some of them are intimidated by me to a certain extent; not realizing I'm just as human as the rest, and I, too, get a kick out of  jokes that I perceive directed toward me; and there have been times when some of the LBS' have written some hilarious things in regards to their MLC spouse; including some things they'd like to do to them.

Of course, I KNOW, they wouldn't do some of the outrageous things they've posted for the sake of humor, and I also know each one does still love their MLC spouse...., but I also remember some of the stupid things he did, and all the times I wanted wring his neck, not to mention ring his bell a few times, LOL!!   

You'll see, as time goes on, the incredibly stupid things a MLC'er can and will do, and the lengths they will go to to cover up what has ALREADY been UNCOVERED is truly laughable, as they really do NOT realize they haven't hid ONE thing from anyone, only exposed themselves more; like children who try to lie, telling more and more to cover, until eventually either the truth comes out, or they stop doing what they are doing and simply say nothing further....and due to their crisis induced fog, they have NO clue what they are doing.......and it really does make it laughable at times, as I found myself laughing at various things he did, even as he lied, denied, threatened, etc.

And the laughing I did, was in NO means intended to disrespect my husband in any way; I targeted then, and I target now, ACTIONS and BEHAVIOR, as I learned, too, to separate the behavior and actions from the person doing them, still love the person, but hate the behavior, and it CAN be done, I succeeded in doing it......detaching and distancing from all of it.

On the other hand, I have a really good sense of humor in regards to myself, and I suffer NO illusions within myself.....what you see is what you get in a "prolific typist" sense!   Lots of words to read, but hopefully there is always SUBSTANCE, and something you can bite into and learn from  within a literary sense.    It is much better than saying NOTHING the whole time!  LOL!!

I'm glad you were willing to read all of that, and I'm glad that I didn't "lose" you in all the 'strings' I was pulling together to explain myself.  And I write literal strings of various aspects tied together.

I always have a deep desire to be understood, and I do answer questions when people don't understand, and I will go out of my way to help someone gain understanding; I'm guessing that is one of the biggest aspects people tend to love about me, LOL!!  If I'm remembered for anything when I leave this earth, it will be for the fact that I wrote LONG posts with so MUCH information you could choke on it, LOL!!!

All jokes aside, I still remember how it is, and how it was....my learning ran into some very deep aspects during my husband's MLC;  and no matter how I may have  come across a little earlier in your thread, I empathize more deeply than you know.....yet, on the other hand, I also know, that clear thinking leads to better functioning; and sometimes getting there involves an occasional kick in the britches, which, I KNOW you didn't get in my LAST post....

I got MY butt kicked way early, too....and believe it or not, the very thought that someone thought(OK, KNEW) I was falling down the proverbial rabbit's hole, made me mad, then madder, then even madder than that, and my anger started bringing clarity one piece at a time to my mind....and as the pieces started coming together within the first three months, a picture came I didn't want to see....that was "Reality 101"..the truth of life as it stood, currently.

I was forced to look at it again, and again....and when I wouldn't stop crying people would say things to me designed to get me out of my pity party, and back into life...and it helped for awhile, I needed this....but when I "really" got it was when I began to calm down on my misery; especially as I realized that no matter what I did, it wouldn't change one thing about the situation, my husband was STILL in MLC.  And MLC was and is a process, and processes, once started really do NEED to finish. 

But even that first realization took time, as it seemed for everything I saw, there was ANOTHER question, and some questions were asked more than once, because there were SO many things I didn't understand.   I was deeply discouraged at first, still cycling some; but that aspect, takes time to get past, as cycling back and forth, swinging like a pendulum etc...is honestly normal to do...even long after you "get it".

I remembered these things as I wrote to you.

But there was one post I'd written where I actually thought I may have gone a little too far, even for me; as one of your latter posts, afterward, especially the day you'd helped her move out, frightened me out of my wits, and I'm not easily startled or even scared.   Something flashed at me off that particular post of yours, causing me to be very uncertain about what your intentions toward yourself were at that point in time.

I had a thyroidectomy not quite two weeks ago, due to large nodules, and an enlarged thyroid,  that had caused Hyperthyroidism to develop within me, and I'm still not quite up to par..and a few things I can "normally" do are missing at the moment as everything I contain within in the way of energy is helping to speed my physical healing...so, some of what I'm doing now is guesswork, but not all of it, because when the Lord really needs something done, something written or something said, He'll intervene, giving me what I need right then..and He needed me to stay here that night and watch what was going on.

I'd seen this before; and all LBS' in early days of crisis carry these aspects to varying degrees...the pain is deep, you do, indeed, wish to die, the depression takes hold, and hopelessness seems to a way of life for this time.   Any shred of hope is grabbed onto and anything that threatens to take away from hope is lashed out at.

I stayed nearly all night; watching, and posting, and praying that something either I or someone posted would get to you, and help you out of the pit you had fallen in at that point, and I prayed you wouldn't do what I nearly did when it was me, so long ago........you were in that kind of mindset...and believe it or not, this is  VERY common within the early days of the crisis.

I can't explain it, exactly, but I experienced a "push"  from Him that night to simply wait, watch and post; and whatever I did, to "keep" you with us..and I remember thinking, this is a messageboard, I can't "hold" somebody if they don't wish to stay, the hour was late and everything else, besides the fact we are all strangers to you, that sort of thing....but the Lord pointed out something that I heard loud and clear.   

He said  "He wants to know he's not alone"...and that was all, I needed to know for that time, so I tossed out posts, even if they didn't seem to be "finished", as I knew I don't show online..my preference, but as I kept putting a post or so out there, you still knew I was there, but I wasn't the only one here that night, and I knew that, too.

I stayed that until the Lord let me know that it was OK to let go, at least for that time and go to bed, the "danger" that had existed for that time, if you will, was past.....I don't know everything; but sometimes I know a little bit.    The dead of the night is a prime time for one's thoughts to get away with them...been there, too...but when He prompts me like that for ANY reason, I pay strict attention, and do what I'm told to do.   

There is a purpose for you in this, past this...and it's meant for you to go through this process..and you will be just fine, given time, and the various aspects you'll face going forward.

And, too, I had a good idea of what you had been before this happened, based on your post and a sense I get off each individual person; you're a good caring man, with good emotional strength within; and you do have a fairly decent amount of self esteem, and self confidence; that comes from knowing yourself fairly well(just didn't know ya had some more to learn, right?), and your devotion to your family, including your wife is solid...it was this beforehand,, and to some extent, you're still devoted to your wife, in spite of her crisis.

Don't lose your strength, you've a great deal of it to your credit.   I'm finished my observation of you.

You're doing MUCH better today it seems, though nothing has changed for the moment in your situation, but as time goes on you'll continue to do even MORE better; these moments DO pass, I promise, having been there, too.

In the reading of your post to me, I see a "lightbulb" clicking on, and you've gotten a most important point out of that post, the SIMILARITY between the MLC'er and LBS' two journeys...

You would NOT believe the arguments and controversies I have started with that one subject, especially years ago, when I was just a little younger, as people missed that connection again, and again, and I kept patiently pointing it out.

Most LBS often felt I was comparing them TO the MLC'er when you don't compare INDIVIDUAL people with each other,  that would be like apples and oranges, within the various differences there is NO comparison; you just point out the similarities of the issues within each person...and dang, here I go again writing long...you poor man, if you die before coming through your wife's MLC, it will be because I "informationed" you to DEATH with what "little" I know, LOL!!

Oh, and not to mention the arguments I also get in regards to the part each person played in the breakdown of their marriage...people think because they didn't argue things were fine, when they couldn't have been farther from the truth, conflict, when engaged in constructively is actually good for the marriage, as it clears the air, brings out whatever current issue is brewing between the partners, and helps them push the barriers between them, and can actually help them come closer to each other as they resolve various problems and disagreements between them, in that process it actually helps them reach a deeper level of intimacy; their connection strengthened even more.

It is NOT a good sign if people NEVER argue or haven't argued within their marriage at all, and it is amazing this same sign has appeared again and again in various situations, as that tells me people didn't feel "free" to express themselves to their spouse...fearing they would be ridiculed or shut out by their spouse....OR that one or even both partners, were and are "conflict avoiders" who would do ANYTHING to avoid conflict.....and so, any problems they had during the marriage beforehand, actually, grew bigger, because they weren't resolved..you can't resolve something if you aren't willing to speak of it, and then take steps to help work it out with the other, as conflict can lead to resolution.

Of course you can't "make" someone listen to you, heed you, or help you work it out, but whatever you wish to have in your marriage, it is your responsibility to ASK for it..and if you perceive you aren't being listened to, "scream" louder until you get the attention of your partner...

Of course, we know that doesn't work in the deep throes of MLC, but this comes during reconciliation, and as the marriage rebuilds from scratch once again...it's part of the changes to acquire better communication skills, and to be willing to bring up what bothers you, EVEN if your partner gets angry with you...remember, when one gets angry, it is because something/some issue/button pushed,  in them has responded to what you say/bring up, and the anger really has NOTHING to do with you and everything to do with them.  But also remember if people get angry, anger often brings clarity, and as resolution comes,  it brings healing in various aspects. 

Quote

    Thank you for the great insights and I hope others benefit from reading through it as well.  I do plan to go back and look it over from time to time as I start to accept the irrational along with the rational.  It really is mind-numbing trying to comprehend everything that's going on.


That it is, and MLC is really, really confusing in SO many aspects; I have often tried to bring a more "understanding" friendly explanation to the table of the various aspects of the crisis...it's confusing enough that you are within as the one who has been "left behind" so to speak, mainly because you are the LAST to know something is wrong, therefore, you start out this way.

But, there will come a time, Thundarr, when you will draw ahead, and in many ways, you already ARE ahead, as you have a wealth of information at your fingertips within the various posts of everyone here.  So, take it in a little at a time, and take your time; time is what you have to work with, use it wisely.

Your counseling training, once you are able step outside your own situation at a later time, can actually help you understand so much more from various aspects...and this is coming from someone who has NO formal training at all, LOL!!  A large bit of my knowledge came from research, what the Lord was showing me, and from the various situations He walked me through...THEN He would send me to the right places to figure what it was I had done..to gather the correct terms, if you will, so I could teach others what I had learned.

Some of this is from human nature, observations, and my own situation...NOT everything I learned was gained from my situation, some of it was learned from helping others over time; offline and online.   I learned as I went along, and you will, too.

And, when you don't understand something, ALWAYS ask questions, questions are good, and the only dumb question was the one you didn't ask.    If you don't ask, you won't know.

Quote

    I do have one question, though, and that is isn't it entirely probable that she would be going through this regardless of who she married?  Not taking responsibility off of me, but that was my understanding.  Thanks!


I didn't see what you were saying as trying to take any responsibility off yourself...I asked the SAME question at one point. 

And, I've passed on the answer in the SAME way it was given to me, many times for understanding purposes.

The answer is YES, she would have gone through this, regardless of WHOM she had married,  OR even if she had NOT married at all; this is not something that would have been stopped or avoided by having married someone else.

For what it's worth, there is NOTHING you could have done to stop this from happening, nothing at all.

The crisis is triggered by the individual issues within each individual; not so much circumstances although circumstances did also within the time before, contribute their own aspects, and each person is unique in what issues they contain within, this circling back to their childhoods, etc.

So, in closing, it really wouldn't have mattered if she'd married or not...this was STILL set to happen, and at the time it did, regardless.

I hope this helps you, my friend.

Take care.

Remember the above??? 

As always, all feedback is appreciated and I mean for this thread to be an open discussion for all so THANK YOU to all my friends for jumping in (waiting on you, Rookie!).  I'd even live to see this thread stickied so it can go on for all the LT orphans.  Now, about that language restriction and moderation.....

Foul language is very disrespectful to others, and the moderation is designed to make the board flow more smoothly like it needs to; without slowing it down to a crawl; that's why threads are limited to 10 pages.


I'm going to say one last thing:

HFB-  I did the same, but I noticed the withdrawal about 6 to 9 mos before BD.  Agree with tweaks and adjustments, it's actions to do or not do...  but really...  i don't think i need a spiritual journey to find myself etc....

That is YOUR choice, Hobo, no one can MAKE you do what you don't wish to do.  I only offer the tools; I don't force people to do anything. 

With all due respect, you say the same things other people say when they first arrive; but, as time goes on, you'll find that CHANGES will also need to be made within you, or your situation will NOT move forward, or IF it moves in any direction, it will be in a negative way....

Change was begun the day the MLC spouse dropped the bomb on the LBS, and it will finish or NOT finish; one way or the other.  Life as you once knew it, will NEVER be the same; nor will it ever return to what it was.

For what it's worth, you can take it or leave it, just like anyone else has that option. 

All food for thought. 

Take care of yourselves. 

[Thundarr]

Wow HB,

Great post but I REALLY think you misunderstood me on a couple things.  First off, I never meant to imply any kind of conflict whatsoever and was just pointing out how great it was having so many leaders on this thread.  As far as Hogan and Flair. (spoiler alert) wrestling is fake so I see that like a movie with two major stars.  Again, I think you completely misunderstood me.

Secondly, I never said that the hormonal part came from you.  Even though I'm typing this in my phone, I don't understand how you read it that way.  I was just saying I don't know of major childhood issues in my W, but DGU already pointed out what should have been obvious to me

So, peace to everyone and let's move along!!

[Thundarr]

Forgot to add that I mentioned the language filter due to the fact that LT was unmoderated and everyone could say whatever they wanted.  I really would like to see this thread stickier as an homage to LT but I understand there are limitations.  I was only half serious regardless so no worries!!

[moc]

Cheers to all the LifeTwo buddies...and my HS LBS brothers and sisters.  Thanks Thundarr for starting this up and good to see (sorry for the sitches of course) some of you jumping on board here.   Dang man, you ruined my total image of wrestling.  Now I feel like a kid who just found out that the Easter Bunny and Santa Clause is not real.  Real downer dude...LOL.

HB, can't wait to hear your 2x4s for us as I know we sometimes all need them.  Your words ran true to me regarding STP and I forget that reconciliation is an agreement verbal and with action that true mending is occurring.  In your opinion is this true for both male LBS and female LBS?  I am wondering as when you see comments of true reconciliation via this board mostly that it seems the male LBS is overwhelmingly sorry, remorseful, apologetic, willing to do anything to obtain trust.  As I know that my wife is probably closer to the reconnection (and no, I truly don't watch to see what stage she is in) and knowing her all these years, my lovely wife has RARELY EVER apologized for ANYTHING.  She herself (along with her father and brother) will tell you that it makes you look weak, no credibility.  I have probably heard under a handful of times her say "I am sorry for blah blah blah" and I felt genuine remorse coming from her.  Of course this is YEARS after the incident and I have completely forgotten and gotten over the hurt.  I can assume this will be the same once I let go of it all.  Problem is...the MLCer lives with me which makes me fuel for her depression.

Anyways, I am still wearing the crisis and figuring out more each day from reading here, my own journey and how I got to be who I am.  I have to figure out what parts of those need to change, and what parts of those I am content with. 

Peace and praying for all MLCers and especially LBSers!

[HeartsBlessing]

HB-  STP got his BD in Nov of 09....  that is over 2 years ago...  and throughout the R process there were bumps in the road...  have we heard of 'real' returns after about 2 years?

Sorry, I missed this, Hobo....sometimes when writing, I miss stuff.

Well, it can happen that way; but again, the journey itself depends upon the MLC'er, but even after they return, if the changes in the LBS aren't made, the MLC'er CAN run once again....the journey's are connected in ways that are hard to understand.

I also think the BD may not be a good measure either because if I had not pushed my stbx to tell me what is wrong - she may not have given me the BD.  She has withdrawn, and it's various stages of withdrawal with back and forth movement...  There are also MLCers who never leave - so it's hard to know if it's really over....  such is life.

I'm sorry, sir, but even if you hadn't pushed her, you would have still gotten some kind of indication directly  from her ; and from what you'd said,  I think you were already suspecting something was wrong, anyway...either way, you'd still have been BD'd.

I busted mine in pornography, THEN discovered an affair; how's THAT for a BD...I KNEW something was wrong, but wasn't sure what, and when I left mine alone, he took it to mean I didn't care about him anymore, no kidding.

Mine was also a truckdriver; but never moved out, yet, throughout, I took the time to figure out where the stages started, where they approximately ended, and I ended up writing everything down as I was going through it.

I learned more as we ended up in a recurring bout of crisis, I didn't know was going to happen, as well as endured a Transition myself; honestly, my husband knew something was wrong, and did ask me questions from time to time; and he PUSHED me hard for a resolution, which actually pushed my Transition out FARTHER in time....just as when I pushed him, I caused him to take longer in his processing.

I think everybody understands that life continues to have its share of problems even after the crisis is past; and the only indicator to really know you're past it completely, is the "knowing" and "surety" the two of you have of each other afterward, as the changes you will both endure, and come to understand take place within the both of you.

One of the resolving factors of the crisis is the readiness of the MLC'er to face themselves in full; and they are the only ones who can do that, and if they don't, you, as the LBS are called upon to hold them to accountability; with NO fear within yourselves of "losing" them or otherwise.

You are right you did NOT cause this; but there are various factors I write about considering each person has their contribution to the breakdown of the marriage...and these contributions on the individual sides needs to be examined by both people.

I did NOT sit around making this stuff up; I can promise you that much; I have been in this for YEARS; and I'd gathered more and more information over this time, and wrote it all out for various people to consider.

In the early years, I, like I watched Thundarr do for some time after he arrived here, spent a whole lot of TIME, wasted or otherwise, looking for a loophole, a "quick fix", something to speed this along, and found NOTHING, or I would have already revealed the magic bullet for this.

An individual's journey is just that, up to the INDIVIDUAL, not anyone else....and within my copied first post to Thundarr, I lay out what I know  and have learned in as much of a nutshell as possible.

I actually wouldn't mind of the MLCer comes back and has to work on themselves, but are committed to being a spouse....  that's what marriage is about, ups and downs but they don't just give up.

This is where the journey becomes more difficult to understand; as it is an emotional and spiritual battle within, not a physical "being able to allow an outside source to fix it" kind....you learn to let go, and allow your MLC spouse to work on themselves, and do what they need to do for themselves, while you learn to deal with yourselves on the same type level.

There are things I can work on myself, but with all due respect, I don't believe I have 3 to  5 years of stuff to work on...

If you were totally honest with yourself, you have more to work on than you think...but that's not for me to begin to "shrink" you...I often ask people various questions to make them think; but until they choose to see themselves in  a different light, I could talk until I was blue in the face, and still wouldn't be able to get through.

I could ask you many questions, give you many answers, and you might still see yourself as one who does NOT need any work on himself...and that's perfectly all right; but on the other hand, and I don't beat around the bush about this...I haven't seen ONE person that did NOT need any further work to improve themselves; and those who say they don't need work..well, you do get the picture, considering your next statement.

Maybe naive on my part but I dont believe the MLC journey is much about me.  I am not perfect, and have things to improve, but I did not up and destroy my family.

Her journey is about her, but your journey is about you; when she went into her crisis, and put you upon this path that was not of her own making, she did make it about you, just as her journey is certainly about her.

I understand completely your statement considering you didn't destroy your family; but you know what, I didn't destroy mine, either; but I still had to figure out what it was within myself that contributed to the breakdown of my marriage; and I did find many things I needed to work on to improve myself.

I had lay down my PRIDE; and stop pointing fingers just at my husband...yet, as my journey commenced, believe it or not, it eventually moved from myself, led to him, and even led to us as a couple, as the further psychological implications I write of now, began to dawn on me in a more clear way...but this took time to figure out on my own, not to mention what I began to see in other people's situations back in the early 2000's.

I'm not an Einstein; nor do I consider myself a very smart person; but once I saw the various links, I began recording various aspects that eventually also turned into the stages I wrote.

The lessons I learned,  I wrote them down as I was learning them; AND , the various aspects I came to know back then, made people "think" I was some kind of wizard at first; because these things were unknown at that time.....and some are still unknown until I see them in someone's situation, because not all aspects will show; but most will.

Anyway, it was all designed to help; and I couldn't have helped anyone if I hadn't already walked this road for myself..and while each person and crisis is different, etc...the journey, and the lessons that are learned during each one's journey is the SAME for the MLC'er and LBS.

Sure the MLC'er must take their journey alone; but IF the LBS doesn't take theirs, too, to also learn, it slows both people down, and causes time to be added.

It boggles the mind the various possibilities the crisis can resolve into....but ultimately if the both people will allow the crisis to work on both; they can come out stronger, better, more resolute, and more able to handle themselves, each other, their marriage,  various relationships, and other people with the new and improved tools they have gained as a result of the change, growth and becoming they complete within themselves....and life goes on with a whole new hope and perspective.

I have SEEN this with my own eyes, or I wouldn't speak of it. 

Further reading for your own understanding, and more food for thought.

Take care.

[Dontgiveup]

Here are a couple of things that might be helpful to those newer to this website and forum.  The forum is a great place to be, but the depth of RCR's research and study of MLC is really found in the articles.

Here is part of one of RCR's newsletters from a year or two ago.  I put this here because it refers to the point in the crisis when valid reconnection could start happening.  The articles section has more in depth information about the stages.  After the part below, I will copy the entire newsletter article as I don't think it can be found on the website.


"MLCers do not reconnect in Separation or Liminality, during those phases the connections are Touch-n-Goes; valid reconnection will not begin until they are out of Liminality and near the end of Rebirth. Your MLCer may physically move home and begin reconnection attempts, but he will not have the skills and Self knowledge until he is at least this far through the crisis."

The entire newsletter article:

In the beginning--0-24 months after bomb Drop--a reconnection attempt will almost always be a touch-n-go, but later in the crisis the same actions may be reconnection. Confusing? My point is that often reconnection may appear like a touch-n-go; the difference is that reconnection lasts and progresses, whereas a touch-n-go is briefer and more superficial. A reconnection may or may not be intentional, but a touch-n-go is likely without intention and without awareness of the cycling and mixed messages.
Touch-n-go and reconnection are not either/or concepts; they are two ends of the same spectrum--each contains pieces of the other. Consider touch-n-goes as seeds of and for reconnection; as the midlife crisis progresses, touch-n-goes may move ever-gradually toward reconnection. They will change over time, becoming increasingly more positive, less superficial and longer.

Keep your expectation at zero when it seems your MLCer is beginning to reconnect. Why, now that she is changing shouldn’t you have greater expectations? No. Where is your MLCer on the connection spectrum--closer to the touch-n-go or to the reconnection end? Reconnection traits within contact and communication do not indicate a desire to return, or more importantly they do not indicate a readiness even if the desire is present.

Even at greater reconnection in Rebirth, the new person is not yet fully born. While you are getting to know and accept them, they are also getting to know and accept themselves. They are uncertain and need to feel safe in their uncertainty. Pressure, which they feel through sensed expectation, will force them to run back into the crisis where they can hide. This uncertain phase--like everything in MLC--is long-lasting, perhaps a year at the short-end of the norm.

Touch-n-Go
MLCers do not reconnect in Separation or Liminality, during those phases the connections are Touch-n-Goes; valid reconnection will not begin until they are out of Liminality and near the end of Rebirth. Your MLCer may physically move home and begin reconnection attempts, but he will not have the skills and Self knowledge until he is at least this far through the crisis.

MLCers touch-n-go because they are insecure and not ready to fully let-go of their former life with you. You are familiar, safe and secure. They reach back to you to make sure you are still there--like a child looking to mom as he sits on the bus for his first day of school. Touch-n-Goes are about testing, information fishing, putting out feelers and reassurance. The MLCer feels guilty and ashamed for causing you pain. Will you accept him, be kind and friendly even though he was not that way to you? They are testing both your forgiveness and acceptance and the integration of the two. Accepting the process of the crisis is different than accepting a person as they are now with their history of mistreatment. Remember how in the beginning people told you that the person you knew as your spouse was no longer the person you knew--that person was either dead, no longer existed, on a vacation, abducted by aliens…? That continues to be true. The Monster that was your MLCer is gradually crumbling and the person he will become is not that Monster. Will you be able to love, accept and forgive that new person knowing what the Monster did?

The article below provides an excellent description of what the MLCer experiences as they come to and move through Liminality on into Rebirth and Reintegration.

http://www.midlifecrisismarriageadvocate.com/mlc_overview_midlife-metaphor.html

 
RCR Note: I thought I'd google a phrase from the article and see if it is ont he main site ot blog--since the blog is still down. It's on the main site: http://www.midlifecrisismarriageadvocate.com/standing-actions_coming-and-going_touch-and-goes-and-reconnection.html

[Mamma Bear]

    I would love to see HB and RCR and OP and Stayed and Stayed's H and DGU all in the Capital Rotunda Testifying to Congress why there are so many families broken apart by depression at mid life.
    Those fat cat senators and congressmen and women would be like 
       They'd have to sit in that hot seat with big fuzzy microphones.
      Exhibit A and Chart B could show foreclosures caused and food stamps and heart attacks from stress and domestic violence from jealous rages etc etc  Hoola Hoops and motorcycles and empty retirement funds! No end in sight.
     I love reading what HB writes. It's amazing. Maybe bc I love science and how things work. When it comes to the human brain and chemicals and behaviors Yikes!

[justasking]

I actually wouldn't mind of the MLCer comes back and has to work on themselves, but are committed to being a spouse....  that's what marriage is about, ups and downs but they don't just give up.

Many MLCers (but not all) come home before the journey ends. They complete their journey at home with their family as others on here testify.

Often they are unable to commit to the marriage on their return as recconnection is just beginning and to recommit to the marriage they have to get to the end of the true withdrawal stage and many return at the end of replay.

To believe that the MLC spouse just gives up on the marriage over simplifies what is happening. MLC has nothing to do with giving up but of moving forward to find themselves and deal with childhood issues. They truly believe that leaving the marriage will help them be happy. Of course we know different.

That is why it is so important to totally understand the process and let your MLCer go. Also if you don't believe you have a journey to complete IMO you are letting a great opportunity pass you by. Certainly I have learnt so much since my H left I would never have learnt before BD and I am grateful for that and so will H be when he returns home. And if he doesn't I am ok.

If hearing the words of commitment are what you truly want when they turn for home IMO you are likely to fail to rebuild a relationship for the future as the door will remain closed due to parameters being identified for a return and the MLC will turn away.