[Thundarr]

Thank you for your posts, HB.  But, other than the aspect of not focusing on your spouse I see little point in putting any extra effort into working on yourself if you were okay with you to begin with.  The reason I say this is because in my case, as with most all of us here, the end result of all this will most likely be that either our spouses do not return or do so much damage we would not want them to anyway.  Happy endings (especially for male LBSers) seem to be as rare as people struck by lightning.  Just as Rover says, the female MLCer becomes the enemy and the purge of love is generally thorough and complete.  I believe this is especially true now with females who move out.  The "clean break@ philosophy is akin to a Black Widow in that the H is devoured and $h!te out to make room for a more desirable mate.  Perhaps it's evolutionary as opposed to good versus evil but who knows.

[welsh]

Thundarr, I was OK and happy with myself as well, but regardless of MLC it is always worth putting effort into working on yourself for the sake of yourself. Don't do it for anybody else. It will make you feel better about you, and if W never returns at least someone else can have the benefit of the changes.

re- post from LT..... sharing myself about.

Surprised nobody else has brought it up, but tomorrow it is Valentines Day...... my BD was last March so this is the first since and I am in a quandary . Obviously W is at home so it is more difficult and awkward to ignore these things. Should I let it go as it is pushing, or should I just give her the card that I carefully selected that doesn't mention love or relationships. I am edging towards that..... but advice is welcomed.

EDIT: Valentines Day thread - http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=708.0 - OldPliot

[hobo1]

HB- Thanks for your posting.  Question for you, you spoke about going through your transition, and in my mind, a transition is just a milder form of the 'crisis.  Am I right?

You spoke about you needing to change, and you were not sure if your H will ACCEPT who you would become.  I must admit that I've not gone through a transition or a crisis, so I am not sure I completely understand.

So, a person in transition and crisis is AWARE of what they are doing.  They know they need to change, and they DECIDE to change.  They should be AWARE of the pain and destruction being caused, and they do it anyway - because they feel it's the right thing to do to make themselves FEEL better.  They are RESPONSIBLE for their actions because they have a CHOICE.

Many write like the MLCer is lost, and being 'mind controlled' by aliens, being that they HAVE to go through this journey... must go through it, no way around it, and no short cuts...

What is your take?  In your transition, and your H's crisis, do you believe that you both knew you were going through 'something', while you were in it?

My W seem to indicate that she 'knew' that this will take some time...  she knew it was not normal that she didnt remember any good times that we had....  I was willing to work with her....  but I didnt really know about MLC, and I was not patient.

Over a period of 3 months, she went from trying to figure it out to  saying she's made up her mind....  and she doesn't know why she said the things she said, she tried to be rational and explain that she just doesn;'t love any more because of my long list of flaws.  All part of the scriot.

 

[hobo1]

I've posted about this in the past, and I agree with Thundarr.  I have specific things I would change about myself.  I am short tempered and I sometimes take things for granted.  These happen to also be the flaws my STBX has pointed out to me.

I will change these. 

But, I still don't get what many are saying about 'Looking at yourself'  'work on yourself' 'Grow, take your own 'JOURNEY" to wholeness'.  Is this to force ourselves to go through a midlife transition?

When the need to go through this transition happens, how will we know it?  How will we feel?

Welsh- I had same question re Valentine's Day.  I went all out last year - it was right after BD, we went on a date...  a nice restaurant, a comedy club for some drinks...  we had a great time, and at the end of the 'date', she still told me 'I dont know if I want to be with you'.  I was crushed.  Not that I thought that a date was enough for someone to fall in love with you - but it's the most painful thing, trying to make your own wife love you again, when deep down, she was repulsed by me.

I also sent her a card, and a gift for our 'anniversary', a gift from the kids for Christmas...  a text 'Happy Birthday' on her birthday....  All to no response or acknowledgement, no thank you, no Merry Christmas, and on my Birthday, no Happy Birthday.

This Valentine's Day, there will be no acknowledgement from me except my notice that there will be $350 less in her biweekly deposit because she refuses to pay our real estate taxes as agreed.

She has no empathy, no feelings, no ability to distinguish right from wrong, and she even 'grinned' when she told me she didn't care the house will go into foreclosure.

I don't think I like the person whom my STBX has become.  The more time that goes by, the more apathy she show towards me, the more I care less about our old relationship.

The more we talk about the D, and the process, and the negotiation on the finances on the D, the less I care about any possible R.  As I look at our relationship of 23 years, the more I see that there were flaws in her that I just 'accepted', and I know have a more objective look at our relationship, without 'obligation'.  Our D will likely be final in two weeks, and if I were to be able to go back in time, would I have chosen to marry her?  My kids aside,  I don;t think I would have chosen to marry her.
 

[limitless]

Thundarr,

Thank you for your posts, HB.  But, other than the aspect of not focusing on your spouse I see little point in putting any extra effort into working on yourself if you were okay with you to begin with. 

Do you really feel this way?  Believe this way?  Actually, I think that you do.  That is really sad and too bad.  Read through your posts, my friend.  It seems to me that you are ruled by your emotions....allowing the crisis of another person (your wife) to bring you down, up and sideways.  (I see this, as this is how I was......and could still be if I allowed it).  I write this with no disrespect towards you.....as I truly would like you to be able to see yourself as others do. 

Were you really "okay" to begin with?  Well, I honestly thought that I was.  I was a good person.  I cared about people.  Took care of my family......my job......my house.  I didn't lie, steal or cheat.  I was "okay" to begin with, sure.......  But I was also self righteous, a nag, I pushed my kids to "succeed" (not in the best of ways), I took my relationship for granted.......I would think from the outside, I appeared to be a pretty good person - but I wasn't happy....not really.  When I look back, with the blinders off - I wasn't "okay" to begin with.

Thundarr, you appear to me to be a pretty conflicted person.  A loving father....a good friend......a kind human being, a caring husband -  then your wife does some typical MLC action or says a typical MLC comment - and you are plunged into dispair, writing vengeful words of anger.  Maybe you keep all these to yourself - only sharing them on the forum....but I get the feeling that your kids see this anger - if not in words, then in behavior. 

There is an LBS man at work that I see occasionally - walking through the parking lot.  His anger, hurt, dispair are like a cloud surrounding him.  I didn't even have to hear about what had happened to him - you can see it in his walk, how he carries himself - the look in his eyes.  He and his children are at odds (they live with him) and I can see why.  Their mother has abandoned the family...he is all they have left and he is a mess.  The girls are, most likely, scared....they can't handle their father being in this state.  When I speak to him, the only thing that is important is that he "get his wife back."  He cannot see what he is doing to his kids and himself.

I asked him if he was seeing a counselor (his wife left 7 months ago).  He said, at first, but no longer.  Now that he "gets" it....understands that this is MLC (and ALL about her) - there was nothing more that a counselor could do for him.  Really?  On Friday, I saw an unshaven mess of a man (walking through the parking lot) - with his head hung low.  He told me that he is nothing if he is not a husband and father.  Those were the only things that he ever wanted to be.  I asked him  - "Your kids grew up and have their own lives - your wife dies - what is left for you?  What will you do for the rest of your life?"  He just shrugged - as if he didn't know and didn't care about himself.  I told him - "Well, there is a good place to start.  Another person cannot be and can never be your entire life.  That is too much pressure for that person and actually truly unfair.  There is more to you than a father and a husband.  Life threw you a curve ball.  It is time for you to find YOU."

I would say the same thing to you, Thundarr.  Your wife is gone - off to lala land.  You still have your kids (and you will always have them), but as time goes on they will need you less and less.  What is left?  What is there for you?  Those are some of the things you need to figure out.  Things we all need to figure out - as we are more than parents and spouses.

There is little point in working on yourself?  I really hope that you don't mean that.  I would hope that there is much to be found in working on yourself.  If not what it brings for you - then for what it will bring to your kids and your loved ones.  I think you really need to re-think that viewpoint.  Just my humble opinion.

The reason I say this is because in my case, as with most all of us here, the end result of all this will most likely be that either our spouses do not return or do so much damage we would not want them to anyway. 

You (like I) are focused on the "end result."  I've really made it a point to let the end result go.  There is no point in worrying about it, wondering about it, focusing on it.  For one thing, it is far into the future and something that we cannot control.  Additionally, over time - we will feel differently about things.  The hurt that you feel now - will not be so fresh - in the future.  The damage that has been done - will not be so recent....believe it or not - unless you read back in your threads, you will even forget some of it.  Shocking, but true.  There is much that my H did and said that I have just forgotten.  When I look back at my threads, I am reminded of them.  It is really true - time heals all.  Don't worry or focus on the end result.  Focus on the work in progress - YOU.

Happy endings (especially for male LBSers) seem to be as rare as people struck by lightning.  Just as Rover says, the female MLCer becomes the enemy and the purge of love is generally thorough and complete.  I believe this is especially true now with females who move out.  The "clean break@ philosophy is akin to a Black Widow in that the H is devoured and $hit out to make room for a more desirable mate.  Perhaps it's evolutionary as opposed to good versus evil but who knows.

We are told that we need to be able to accept any "ending."  That there is not only one resolution to this whole mess.  You seem to be a comparative shopper.  Looking at other stories and gauging the success (or failure) of your situation - based upon the results of others.  (I did this...I do this).  You cannot judge your situation, based upon others.  It will only lead to disappointment - as each timeline and story is different - even though there are similarities.

I am not a be proponent of the Divorce Busting midlife crisis forum - but I do read it occasionally.  It has been around a lot longer than this forum and there is a thread on reconciled marriages.  (There are many on that site....as well as many that didn't make it).  One of the male posters on the site (who is back with his wife) has a very good comment on one of those threads.  He said that if only 1% of the marriages reconciled - he was determined to be part of the 1%.  While I don't subscribe to reconciliation being the only end result - I do like that comment.  As far as he was concerned - forget the odds......he was determined.  So he detached...let go......worked on himself and, as an added bonus - he and his wife were able to come together again.

It can happen and does ... but, again, it can't be the only end result.......Maybe by letting go and accepting that the old marriage is over - maybe by truly doing this - we can allow a new relationship to rise from its ashes.........

L

[limitless]

HB- Thanks for your posting.  Question for you, you spoke about going through your transition, and in my mind, a transition is just a milder form of the 'crisis.  Am I right?

You spoke about you needing to change, and you were not sure if your H will ACCEPT who you would become.  I must admit that I've not gone through a transition or a crisis, so I am not sure I completely understand.

So, a person in transition and crisis is AWARE of what they are doing.  They know they need to change, and they DECIDE to change.  They should be AWARE of the pain and destruction being caused, and they do it anyway - because they feel it's the right thing to do to make themselves FEEL better.  They are RESPONSIBLE for their actions because they have a CHOICE.
 

I would say that the person who is in transition has a better idea of what is going on and, thus, deals with the issue - not allowing it to become a crisis.

A person in crisis is not dealing...avoiding (thus making it a crisis) and, thus, either unaware of what they are doing or choosing to ignore it - pretend that it doesn't exist.

I think that is one of the main differences between a transition and a crisis......

L

[hopingfourbetter]

HB- Thanks for your posting.  Question for you, you spoke about going through your transition, and in my mind, a transition is just a milder form of the 'crisis.  Am I right?

You spoke about you needing to change, and you were not sure if your H will ACCEPT who you would become.  I must admit that I've not gone through a transition or a crisis, so I am not sure I completely understand.

So, a person in transition and crisis is AWARE of what they are doing.  They know they need to change, and they DECIDE to change.  They should be AWARE of the pain and destruction being caused, and they do it anyway - because they feel it's the right thing to do to make themselves FEEL better.  They are RESPONSIBLE for their actions because they have a CHOICE.
 

I would say that the person who is in transition has a better idea of what is going on and, thus, deals with the issue - not allowing it to become a crisis.

A person in crisis is not dealing...avoiding (thus making it a crisis) and, thus, either unaware of what they are doing or choosing to ignore it - pretend that it doesn't exist.

I think that is one of the main differences between a transition and a crisis......

L

  I will add that sure signs of crisis would be adultery, moving out and leaving your children, A true EA, crossing the line of things that would be very hard to forgive.

[WarriorPriestess]

The reason I say this is because in my case, as with most all of us here, the end result of all this will most likely be that either our spouses do not return or do so much damage we would not want them to anyway.  Happy endings (especially for male LBSers) seem to be as rare as people struck by lightning.

Speak for yourself Thundarr.  You have no way of predicting the outcomes of ANY of the situations here.  Don't assume.

[HeartsBlessing]

Thank you for your posts, HB.  But, other than the aspect of not focusing on your spouse I see little point in putting any extra effort into working on yourself if you were okay with you to begin with.  The reason I say this is because in my case, as with most all of us here, the end result of all this will most likely be that either our spouses do not return or do so much damage we would not want them to anyway.  Happy endings (especially for male LBSers) seem to be as rare as people struck by lightning.  Just as Rover says, the female MLCer becomes the enemy and the purge of love is generally thorough and complete.  I believe this is especially true now with females who move out.  The "clean break@ philosophy is akin to a Black Widow in that the H is devoured and $hit out to make room for a more desirable mate.  Perhaps it's evolutionary as opposed to good versus evil but who knows.

All of the moderators have said what you need to read, and I have nothing to add to their replies, they are right. 

I wish you nothing but a good life going forward, Thundarr;  I suppose God would have to create a "burning bush" situation for you in order to clearly show you what you need to know...but you won't listen to Him, either; so I'll just step aside here....

[HeartsBlessing]

I would say that the person who is in transition has a better idea of what is going on and, thus, deals with the issue - not allowing it to become a crisis.

A person in crisis is not dealing...avoiding (thus making it a crisis) and, thus, either unaware of what they are doing or choosing to ignore it - pretend that it doesn't exist.

I think that is one of the main differences between a transition and a crisis......

Hobo,

Limitless is correct in what she says....each person, however, has clear CHOICES, and both people, whether in crisis or Transition is very much AWARE of what they are doing. 

It's the mistakes that are made that change a transition into a crisis....but  both types of people ARE AWARE of what's going on; in spite of the pain, etc. they are facing.

I was aware of everything I was doing/saying; but I chose NOT to take a detour, nor did I choose to avoid....the only way out was THROUGH, and I went straight through it; yet, it also took ME time to finish.

I, too, like I said before,  had unresolved childhood issues that were still needing to be looked at within myself...I got some of them during my husband's crisis; but I still had more to face, resolve and heal.

My husband was aware of what he was doing; but there were avoidance paths that he took that made his Transition a crisis, plus this extended his time within his journey.

I could write out once again the psychological implications, but these are long and involved, and I copied a great many of them from Thundarr's earlier threads and pasted them within that first LifeTwo thread.

I learned a lot during that time; and I applied this learning to the counseling I did, and still do.

I've found that each one of us really do repeat various emotional patterns from our childhood when we marry our spouses, and each one of us has a great deal of growing up to do within ourselves; and this becomes clear to us, if we become open to it when our spouse goes into their crisis, and we find that many things are wrong within ourselves.


Again, the growing change and becoming we do is for ourselves as individuals, just as the journey the MLC'er is on is for them also as individuals.

The outcome, even for my own situation, was always uncertain as my husband could have always decided to walk away forever; and I had to accept every possibility that could happen, as my husband was free to make these kinds of choices on his own.

He chose me, and during my Transition, I chose him; but more work remained to be done within us both, and this took time to complete in this aspect.


I saw a much different, and much better man come out of the fires of his crisis, and I was also changed, as well...no longer do we deal with childhood issues within ourselves, our ways of relating with each other and other people changed as well.   We both grew up EMOTIONALLY....it was a long process, but well worth the walk we both took for the years we spent within this time of our lives dealing with Mid Life Issues.


I could have chosen NOT to change, but as long as I even fought that, the situation remained the same; my husband remained in crisis, with NO incentive to change.   It took me changing to prompt the changes in him.  Once I began work on me in earnest,  having started to face, resolve and heal the issues within myself, I clearly saw what was going on within him that had once "fed" my own issues, pushed my buttons, etc...but in time, he saw the "old" way of relating to me didn't work; therefore he had two choices, change, or walk away.

He fought me at first; because it's easier to stay with the "old" than to go with "new" behaviors; and I got pressured, but stood my ground.

My eyes had been opened to new and more healthy ways of relating, and I wouldn't settle for less than what I had come to realize was a more mature way of dealing...not just with him, but with other people as well.

He chose to change; and within that change, he stopped the behaviors that had once pushed my emotional buttons, and started growing up as he was meant to.

It all took time, and it was a process that we both went through.......Change in one really does bring about change in the other.

The MLC is a wake up call to further growth and change...and it continues until change is wrought in both people...and it completes itself in that aspect.

If one is totally honest with themselves; they'll take the time to figure out everything within that needs an "overhaul"; and get to it.

I would never say anyone here was "bad", or "defective"; but everyone has issues within themselves, I haven't seen a case of MLC yet where growth and change wasn't needed within both people in order to better relate with their spouses, and other people.

I hope this further helps.