Skip to main content

Author Topic: Discussion Hope, Expectations & Probability

  • *****
  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 3010
  • Gender: Female
    • The Hero's Spouse
Discussion Hope, Expectations & Probability
OP: February 14, 2012, 05:21:30 PM
    Hope, Expectations & Probability
    I’ve already prepared this as two posts for the blog, but that is still in-and-out and I promised I’d respond to concerns about what I said the other day.
    …the reality is that most LBSs here will probably not reconcile with their spouses.
    But the goal is that through the support and education we offer, we will gradually increase those odds of reconciliation. So right now it may the odds may be stacked against, but as we all learn the best ways to Stand and interact with MLCers and focus on Self, we will have more and more reconciliation success stories. And that may be contagious because when there are few successes there are higher doubts; so when your friend reaches reconciliation, you may have an easier time believing you can or will too.

    I know that initial statement bothered some of you; it’s scary.

    If you are the typical LBS, after a while you will believe your marriage will not survive, often because your MLCer is just one of those stubborn ones who once he makes a decision, he won't change it. …An MLCer may become stuck, but those are the rare cases. More common is for a person to regret their actions—often when they are too late because the spouse has closed the opportunity for marital reconciliation.
    One of the main reasons some of you will not recover your marriages is because you will change your mind about Standing. You may give up, feeling defeated and as though you failed (though let’s hope not) or you may change your mind about wanting to be married to your MLCer. You may also determine that your MLCer is likely to not return and though you will remain willing to consider if they are interested and you are available, you would like to expand your dating market; you want a romantic relationship with someone, even if that someone is a new person. I did not say you would not recover your marriage because your MLCer would not want to recover it.

    Choosing to stop Standing is not failure.
    Choosing to seek a new relationship with a new person is not failure.
    Choosing to continue to Stand (as a Covenant Keeper) even if your spouse does not return is not failure.

    Success comes in many varieties.

    In my early days I spread the 80% statistic. I heard from a chat leader at Jim Conway’s chat that Jim said 80% of MLCers will return—or will want to return. I was unable to clarify whether it meant 80% of marriages recovered or that 80% of the MLCers wanted to reconcile—even though some spouses refused. Finally I asked Jim about that statistic and he said it was not something that came from him and he did not know where it came from. Basically it was a statistic without a source and likely was a bit of anecdotal wishful thinking. I would love for that statistic to be true—or even a higher rate. But not only do I have no evidence to support it, I no longer think it is close to the reality. Why? Standing is hard and as I said already, many of you will come to a place where you feel strong and you feel ready to stop Standing. And if the statistic is about how many MLCers want to reconcile—how was that sort of data gathered? Often those with regrets do not verbalize them and they may not even acknowledge them to themselves for many years. MLC lasts 2-7 years, but some may not admit regrets until years after that after they are experiencing the full consequences of divorce on themselves and their children.

    So let’s change the odds! That is one of the goals I have for us at this site. Let’s increase the rate of reconciliation. It starts with each of you. But we need to begin at reality; the odds of reconciliation are lower than we want them to be. Right now we are still new and the Stander’s movement is tiny. The message of The Hero’s Spouse has not reached far and wide yet. The forum is not quite 2 years old—though many of you were a few years post-Bomb Drop when we started. Our rates are not high…yet. In fact right now a lot of you are basing your hope on that low rate and allowing it to destroy your hope.


    ***

    You should already know not to link Hope with Expectation, but what about probability? Are you linking Hope with Probability so that if the odds of marital recovery are low your hope is low and if the odds are high, your hope is high? By odds I mean some set of general statistical data. Technically I don’t have that sort of data, but suppose it was out there and that 20% of MLC marriage recovered. What would that mean?

    The overall divorce rate is 40-some percent.

      But if you divide married couples into groups, the rates vary.
      • Odds of divorce are higher for those who marry under 25.
      • Odds of divorce are lower if the partners come from intact families—their parents did not divorce.
      • There is a current trend for higher divorce rates among those without college degrees.
      • Odds are higher if you cohabitate with your spouse before marriage.
        The same is true of the general population of MLC marriages. There are different subgroups with different odds.
        • Standers vs. Kick’em to the Curbers
        • Standers who learn about Standing vs. Standers who have no support or resources
        • LBSs who detach & Self-Focus vs. LBSs who hold pity parties
        • Lurkers vs. Forum Particpants
          And what about the types of MLCers? Might there be a difference in recovery rates between
          • High vs. Low-Energy
          • Number of alienators
          • Clinging Boomerangs vs. Boomerangs vs. In-n-Outs vs. Vanishers
          • Severity of Family of Origin and other historical issues
          • Addictions
            And what about the alienator?
            • Degree of Affair Down
            • Degree of Emotional Blackmail
            • Addictions
            • Pregnancy
              And what about the MLCer’s support system…how much encouragement from family and friends (not new MLC friends) is the MLCer getting to leave the marriage?
              • Family supporting MLC and infidelity vs. unsupportive
              • Relationship between in-laws and LBS
              This website is unique. Most people do not choose to Stand and the resources and support for Standing are thus limited. So if you include all those kick’em to the curb LBSs, you probably will come up with more divorces than reconciliations. But what about those who don’t kick’em to the curb, but also do not find this website or other resources and support. They don’t learn what to do, how to detach, the why’s of MLC and how’s of infidelity. Maybe their reconciliation rate is higher than the kick’em to the curb group, but it may still be low. Those two groups are most people. Those of you reading this are statistically insignificant, but your rates of reconciliation should still be higher than for the other two groups; that just seems logical.
              But now let’s factor in the midlife range of 2-7 years. Suppose most situations show the first (tiny) signs of recovery at 3 years. Now don’t run with that number, I’m just pulling it out of nowhere to use as an example. But suppose at 4.5 years you aren’t seeing those same signs. What are your thoughts?

              My MLCer is really gone.

              And maybe that will be true. But if you are basing a significant portion of that thought on the situations of other Standers, you are letting someone else’s situation control your thoughts, fears and even your outcome.
              How many people are going to Stand for 4 years with little to no signs of progress—or no signs after initial cycling in the first months after Bomb Drop? The longer the time since Bomb Drop, the more likely a Stander is to Fall Down or Sit Down—they are done. Should their actions affect your odds?
              No, and yet they do because many of you are basing Hope for your situation on the reconciliation of others. I get it, really I do. We want to know that what we are doing is possible and seeing other marriages recover is that evidence. Many—men possibly more than woman—want to use that when determining whether to Stand or not. What’s the risk, will I be wasting my time?

              I’m not even writing this to urge you to keep Standing. Stand for you, for what you want and base your decision to Stand or to Stop Standing on what you want and need, not what is or has happened in someone else’s situation. Think about some of the purposes of Standing and then determine if it’s worth the risk.

              • Standing as a Grace Period
                Instead of making a decision to end your marriage now, put that on hold while your MLCer goes through the MLC tunnel and you heal.
              • Standing as a Healer and Teacher
                The actions necessary for Standing are relationship teachers. You have been going through the process of healing and repair so that you do not repeat the relationship mistakes you may have made previously. … Communicating with an MLCer--or a non-MLC walk-away spouse--with the intent of rebuilding and healing teaches you how to handle your next relationship. It forces you to look at yourself and find where you need to make changes.
                (From Article: Why Stand?)
              Standing is not simply about recovering your marriage. It’s about healing and re-discovering Self. Once you feel assured within your Self, you will be at a place where you are healthy enough to make a decision about continuing to Stand or not—you will have earned your way either to choosing divorce.

              • Logged

              R
              • *****
              • Hero Member
              • Posts: 1251
              • Gender: Male
              Re: Hope, Expectations & Probability
              #1: February 15, 2012, 07:29:43 AM
              Thanks RCR.
              • Logged
              HE>i

              • *
              • Mentor
              • Hero Member
              • Posts: 12305
              • Gender: Female
              Re: Hope, Expectations & Probability
              #2: February 15, 2012, 07:31:08 AM
              Thanks RCR for addresssing this. For some reason, I continue to need "reassurance"..not that he will return..but that he could. Whatever causes the fear inside me, even though I think I am doing well GALing and healing and all that stuff...I still need HOPE that our marriage will survive this.

              • Logged
              "Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see" Hebrews 11:1

              "You enrich my life and are a source of joy and consolation to me. But if I lose you, I will not, I must not spend the rest of my life in unhappiness."

              " The truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it". Flannery O'Connor

              https://www.midlifecrisismarriageadvocate.com/chapter-contents.html

              F
              • *****
              • Hero Member
              • Posts: 1222
              • Gender: Female
              Re: Hope, Expectations & Probability
              #3: February 15, 2012, 08:07:39 AM
              I don't think that its possible to stand without hope. How could you if, somewhere in the back of your head you weren't doing this in part to put your marriage back together. I know that everyone says detach. I get the idea, I really do. But, if I didn't hold out for some kind of hope then what would be the point of going through all this heartache.

              As much as I hear that you need to detach, gal, find your own way. Humans being what we are, we feel, hurt, anger, resentment, love. Without feeling these things, then we are not human.

              I can work on being a better person, I can work on getting on with my life. I can learn to live my life without him. But as long as I love him and want my marriage to work, that's why I stand. But, there WILL be times when its tooooooo much, when I am angry, when I do feel immense pain and hurt. If I didn't feel these things then there would be no love for him, no hope that I can make a difference with my stand.

              Quite frankly, when I come here to vent and say what Im feeling, it is with hope. Because without it then there is NO POINT OF STANDING. I could move on, find someone else. Not have to deal with this everyday.

              And regardless of where we are on this journey, we do deal with it everyday. Especially those of us who still live with our spouses. Who look at that person, that we have loved, had children with, shared our hope and dreams with everyday.

              So, galing, it takes your mind off of it for awhile, Then the reality of how, at this moment we have choosen to live is still there!!!. There when we sleep, there when we remember what it was like, there when we realize that we are standing, with hope.

              If I couldn't look at my h, with the hope that I can do this. That my standing, being the lighthouse, paving the way. Being a better person, showing my love and that although he is lost, I am still there, then what would be the point?

              I have made the changes that I needed FOR ME, I have better skills to be a better wife, and mother. I can stand on my own two feet. I have worked on me.

              But, when I come here, tell my story, journal about the babysteps that I see, the mistakes that I make, its because I feel safe here. This is the one place I can drop my defenses, let down my guard. Not be the strong one.

              At home I have to be all these things. Don't let him see the hurt, don't get angry, dont ask questions, dont poke the beast. I have to hold myself together everyday. We all do, even if we wont admit that it hurts, that is draining, that its hard.

              So my friends, when I come here and Im just me. The one that's hurting, confused, drained, and I can't think straight. I come to you, my friends, my family. The only people that I know, know how this feels.

              C
              • Logged
              Finding Hope

              • *
              • Mentor
              • Hero Member
              • Posts: 12305
              • Gender: Female
              Re: Hope, Expectations & Probability
              #4: February 15, 2012, 09:18:43 AM
              Confused, what you wrote sums up how I feel..you did it so eloquently and straight from the heart..thank you.
              • Logged
              "Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see" Hebrews 11:1

              "You enrich my life and are a source of joy and consolation to me. But if I lose you, I will not, I must not spend the rest of my life in unhappiness."

              " The truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it". Flannery O'Connor

              https://www.midlifecrisismarriageadvocate.com/chapter-contents.html

              W
              • *****
              • Hero Member
              • Posts: 2443
              • Gender: Female
              • VICTORY
              Re: Hope, Expectations & Probability
              #5: February 15, 2012, 09:32:43 AM
              Quite frankly, when I come here to vent and say what Im feeling, it is with hope. Because without it then there is NO POINT OF STANDING. I could move on, find someone else. Not have to deal with this everyday.

              I agree!  People can talk statistics and negative probabilities all they want.  But for me, I choose HOPE.
              • Logged
              "Through dangers untold and hardships unnumbered, I have fought my way here to the castle beyond the Goblin City.  For my will is as strong as yours, and my kingdom as great.  You have no power over me."

              F
              • *****
              • Hero Member
              • Posts: 1222
              • Gender: Female
              Re: Hope, Expectations & Probability
              #6: February 15, 2012, 09:48:44 AM
              XYZCF,

               I felt that I needed to say those things because lately I don't come here because I am leary about saying how I really feel. Don't want to hear about how Im not detached. How I still looking for "signs" that he is coming out of the tunnel. I know that he's not. He's a grown man that sits in his truck all day and night, that in it self should say everything. No one in thier right minds does that.

              Yesterday was hard, I wanted to come here and scream, why is he doing this to me, what the hell have done that's soooooo awfull that he needs to treat me this way. Honestly, don't we all think that?

              Sure we know that they are not themselves now. That doesn't change one thing about how it hurts. We cannot go through everyday, like everything is going to work out on way or the other. You have to be thinking about it most of the time. Were living it, its part of our lives. You can detach but, you cannot ignore it. It's a cloud that hangs over us daily. The not knowing. The what if's.

              That unknown, were all afraid of it. It's OK, to say it out loud. IT'S OK to feel. I lately have felt shame. Shame that others didnt' think that I'm moving on, shame that they think Im not that detached. Fact is I love him, Im standing for my marriage. And EVERYDAY, EVERY MINUTE, Im doing the best that I can with what Im dealing with right now. That is the best I can do. I am not a robot. I can't turn my feelings on and off. If I could, wouldn't I be just like my MLC spouse?

              Im better than he is right now. I still feel the love, see things clearly. Doesnt mean Im not detached. If I don't deal with my feelings, the sense of loss, the hurt, anger then I too will be lost.

              I've spent my whole life lost. I am found now. Doing better with what life has dealt me than I have ever done. But, dealing is what Im doing. Until my h comes out of this or life sends me in another direction, then this is all I can do for me and my family.


              C
              • Logged
              Finding Hope

              W
              • *****
              • Hero Member
              • Posts: 2443
              • Gender: Female
              • VICTORY
              Re: Hope, Expectations & Probability
              #7: February 15, 2012, 09:56:08 AM
              I think you are doing great C!  *hugs*

              And there really HASN'T been any sort of long term study done on this.  Right now it's really just speculation on our own situations based on the limited number of cases we have read about online.  We see possible trends and we infer into them.  There are so many extenuating circumstances in each individual relationship.  RCR touches on a few general ones here in this article.  Look at that as data to use to help in your own success.  Which techniques have a higher rate of reconciliation?  Which have a lower rate?  Make it work to your advantage and improve your own odds.

              I strongly believe that our attitude helps to create our reality. Thoughts become things.  Think positive.  Sure, we all have fear of the unknown.  But we can still trust that in the end it will all work out.  Don't worry about everyone else's situation.  Focus on succeeding in your own.  If people want to be negative, they can do that on their own time, about their own situations.  For me, I choose HOPE.  I choose SUCCESS.  I choose to BELIEVE.
              • Logged
              "Through dangers untold and hardships unnumbered, I have fought my way here to the castle beyond the Goblin City.  For my will is as strong as yours, and my kingdom as great.  You have no power over me."

              W
              • ****
              • Sr. Member
              • Posts: 496
              • Gender: Female
              Re: Hope, Expectations & Probability
              #8: February 15, 2012, 10:03:52 AM
              There is a reason that we are all here...and that IS because we have HOPE.  Hope is what keeps us going and continuing on with this journey.
               We KNOW that there is something completely not normal about what is going on with our spouse/loved one and are trying to figure out the best way to move forward and HOPEfuly salvage our relationship and make a fresh start after this journey ends.  It is hard to know what the actual probability is because HOW would this be tracked? 

              Who is out there trying to obtain statistics and really where do they go and who do they talk to? 
              I think that as long as WE (LBS) are willing to work on ourselves too (mirror-work) and realize that our spouses are in MLC and learn how to best deal with this process...WE are going to increase our own odds of coming out of this and reconciling our relationships/marriages. 

              As extremely difficult as it is to imagine, I continue to read and hear reports of the reconciled marriages being even better than the old marriage ever was. 
              I struggle with that too, but again...HOPE that is the case in my situation and in all of our situations. 

              As my screen-name indicates, "With Hope" I am moving forward. 
              I have loved, and DO love my H unconditionally, and I did marry him for better or for worse. 
              There are so many aspects of his current personality that I truly HATE but I can't fathom that all of his goodness is dead, but just buried somewhere inside of him. 
              I know that I'm not saying anything new here, but just wanted to put in my two-cents. 

              As always,
              With HOPE
              • Logged
              « Last Edit: February 15, 2012, 11:02:44 AM by OldPilot »
              Me-37
              H-36
              D2
              Met-1995/Married-2001
              BD-11/2010
              H Moved Out-02/2011
              H Filed-03/2012
              Divorced-06/2012

              t
              • *****
              • Hero Member
              • Posts: 3150
              • Gender: Female
              Re: Hope, Expectations & Probability
              #9: February 15, 2012, 10:05:44 AM
              Confused,

              Quote
              Sure we know that they are not themselves now. That doesn't change one thing about how it hurts. We cannot go through everyday, like everything is going to work out on way or the other. You have to be thinking about it most of the time. Were living it, its part of our lives. You can detach but, you cannot ignore it. It's a cloud that hangs over us daily. The not knowing. The what if's.

              That unknown, were all afraid of it. It's OK, to say it out loud. IT'S OK to feel. I lately have felt shame. Shame that others didnt' think that I'm moving on, shame that they think Im not that detached. Fact is I love him, Im standing for my marriage. And EVERYDAY, EVERY MINUTE, Im doing the best that I can with what Im dealing with right now. That is the best I can do. I am not a robot. I can't turn my feelings on and off. If I could, wouldn't I be just like my MLC spouse?

              You read my mind.  :)  I think having a live-in does make it harder to detach completely. It really does.  I know I still struggle with it, sometimes more than I think I should after almost three years post BD - those little glimpses we get of who they were as well as the constant reminders that they are not that they are not the same person right now. 

              You are right, we can't turn off the feelings.  We can do our best to cope.  I think part of the healing and coping comes in allowing ourselves to feel the sadness or the anger when it hits us instead of trying to push it aside.  We feel what we feel because we are not robots, like you said.  And yes, we have that hope. :)
              • Logged

              • ***
              • Full Member
              • Posts: 102
              • Gender: Female
              • I Will Face Today with Faith & Courage!
              Re: Hope, Expectations & Probability
              #10: February 15, 2012, 11:41:45 AM
              My hope is that one day I can live with the decision I've made, it being standing or letting go. I am in limbo at the moment. I did not think that I would find myself in this place. Not wanting to Stand anymore. From RCR articles I expected to come to the point where I may not want to continue to stand. I told myself "not me" I WILL STAND! As of late, since no contact with H, I've felt anger of what he has done. I can't get it off my mind that he chose THAT over me, our children, our family, our future. THAT thing that was able to persuade him to an illicit affair. How dare he do this to me!!!!!

              Now that I have had the time to think, re-access my marriage. It was never good. NEVER. Why would I want that back? He is incapable of being the man I want, the man I need. What has helped me through this from the beginning is the thought that we could have it better than ever. This is just fantasy now. 

              I can't even imagine HOW he could ever make it up to me. Am I being selfish? or do I need reassurance of his loyalty? How can I recover enough from this anguish to want to be the wife (he deserves) I want to be? HOW????? He doesn't deserve my patience, my honesty, my loyalty, MY LOVE!

              AM I DETACHING TOO MUCH?  Detaching from spouse who lives at home is very hard..... but it is easier to hold on to hope when spouse is home too. 

              Confused, tell it like it is sister ♥♥♥  Thank you for your honesty.     XXOO
              • Logged

              F
              • *****
              • Hero Member
              • Posts: 1222
              • Gender: Female
              Re: Hope, Expectations & Probability
              #11: February 15, 2012, 12:07:36 PM
              Sands,

              In the beginning I wondered if it was all my fault, what if I had done this or that. Did that for months. I too realize that I wasnt in the marriage I wanted to be. He wasn't the man I thought that he was, was HOPING for.

              If it is true that they come out better men, then I am willing to wait. If after all this, all the hurt,pain and confusion and he is still the selfish man that he has always been. Then, I know that I did my best. I can walk away that I was strong in my stand. Im a better person and if this is all I get out my stand, then it will have to be good enough for me, I won't have a choice. None of us will. We will have to go on because we still have children, responsibilitys. Work, home, pets.

              So to stand or not to stand has to be an individual decision. You do what your heart tells you to. Because in the end you have to be OK with you.

              Love Ya
              C
              • Logged
              Finding Hope

              g
              • *****
              • Hero Member
              • Posts: 809
              • Gender: Female
              • the door is closing and I can't change it...
              Re: Hope, Expectations & Probability
              #12: February 15, 2012, 12:15:02 PM
              Confused

              What you are feeling is natural and normal . I feel all the things you wrote of almost daily. But I hope and pray the my husband will be the better man that I have heard of upon his return back to me and our marriage. You see I believe that he will be back. He was the bright light in my dark sad world. Gosh I miss him so very much  :'( It would be easier if the rest of our world was supportive and understanding about our situation and our choice to stand for our spouses. But in this world it's always on to the next thing. Don't try to fix or save your marriage just replace them. Well I know I don't can't won't be replacing my husband. Maybe that sounds naive but my heart wants what it wants and he is mine strongest heart's desire.

              Come here to let out all the feeling of confusion, anger, sadness, joy anything .We will be hear to cry with you and cheer you on.

              Love and Hugs ,
              G4m
              • Logged
              I made a choice to finally let go, because I can't stand the pain, it's time for my last tear to fall and smile again.

              • *
              • Mentor
              • Hero Member
              • Posts: 12305
              • Gender: Female
              Re: Hope, Expectations & Probability
              #13: February 15, 2012, 12:31:50 PM
              Confused...do not feel shame..this is not a race and I truly think that we must face it and grieve every bit of it to come out healthy. I think about my husband everyday...as soon as I awake, when I get up at night, throughout the day.....I wish I could turn it off but the best I have been able to do is to lower the volume.....and accept that he is gone.

              I don't know what is easier..if they live at home, if they don't...I do know it hurts.

              Sands......none of our marriages were perfect...and it is something I have to understand..but then again, MLC is not about our marriage, our relationship or me. You do what is totally right for you...and somedays that might be standing and somedays not and it doesn't need to be a decision one way or the other. You are the important one...YOU are what matters.

              If they return, we have been warned that they will be "broken"  so which ever happens, we have to find ourselves and become whole again......perhaps standing gives us the time to do that although the temptation to be loved by someone else is very strong...it is our innermost need and is difficult to resist.

              Much love to both of you and to all the rest of us who are so confused from one moment to the next....as I often share with Trusting and DGU.., I HATE MLC!!!!!!
              • Logged
              "Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see" Hebrews 11:1

              "You enrich my life and are a source of joy and consolation to me. But if I lose you, I will not, I must not spend the rest of my life in unhappiness."

              " The truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it". Flannery O'Connor

              https://www.midlifecrisismarriageadvocate.com/chapter-contents.html

              • *****
              • Hero Member
              • Posts: 6485
              • Gender: Male
              Re: Hope, Expectations & Probability
              #14: February 15, 2012, 12:54:02 PM
              Wow.  What an awesome thread.  Confused, you described the situation so eloquently and much less confrontationally than I.  I could have written your post as I experience all those same emotions daily as well.

              So, if I'm understanding RCR correctly then none of us have reason to lose hope in our sitches but neither do we have reason to have more than basic hope.  All sitches and people are different and what applies to someone else's W may be apples and oranges to mine.  In the be-all and end-all, all of us have a 50/50 chance.  They'll either return or they won't.

              As far as "new and improved," I'll happily take the old W back despite her flaws.  We weren't perfect, but I do think we were lucky to have each other.  I stand because I want her back as well as my family.  Saturday showed me that and if she were to stay like she was then I'm all in.
              • Logged
              One day at a time.

              Thundarr

              W
              • *****
              • Hero Member
              • Posts: 2443
              • Gender: Female
              • VICTORY
              Re: Hope, Expectations & Probability
              #15: February 15, 2012, 01:07:05 PM
              All sitches and people are different and what applies to someone else's W may be apples and oranges to mine.  In the be-all and end-all, all of us have a 50/50 chance. 

              I agree with your first sentence here Thundarr.  I disagree with the second.  The part I take issue with, and that I took issue with in your previous post on the L2 thread, was the generalizing.  No one on this board, you or anyone else, can speak with authority for what will happen to ALL OF US (or any individual one of us for that matter).  There are too many conditions, too many variables, to categorize ALL LBSers or ALL MLCers under one umbrella.  That is what I meant when I said earlier to "speak for yourself."  In the end, that is all any of us can do with certainty. 

              Edit to add: 
              Assuming we WERE basing this argument solely on quantifiable data, and not just random numbers being postulated by various people, "There are three kinds of lies:  lies, dam*ed lies, and statistics."  The meaning found in these numbers is usually what you make of it.  ;)
              • Logged
              « Last Edit: February 15, 2012, 01:20:45 PM by WarriorPriestess »
              "Through dangers untold and hardships unnumbered, I have fought my way here to the castle beyond the Goblin City.  For my will is as strong as yours, and my kingdom as great.  You have no power over me."

              • *****
              • Hero Member
              • Posts: 6485
              • Gender: Male
              Re: Hope, Expectations & Probability
              #16: February 15, 2012, 01:24:45 PM
              Hey WP,

              I was generalizing but that was the point.  There are extraneous variables in every situation but we truly don't know how much weight any of them carries, as you said in your previous post that we are merely inferring info based on what we read online.

              I stand behind the statement as it is pure science if we start out with only two possible outcomes.  Lacking research and controlled conditions we are fumbling in the dark in many respects and trying to find a path to follow.
              • Logged
              One day at a time.

              Thundarr

              W
              • *****
              • Hero Member
              • Posts: 2443
              • Gender: Female
              • VICTORY
              Re: Hope, Expectations & Probability
              #17: February 15, 2012, 01:28:49 PM
              Lol Thundarr, I'm looking at it from a scientific (as well as mathematical) viewpoint as well.  Perhaps that is the difference between inductive vs. deductive reasoning?  ;)

              http://www.sjsu.edu/depts/itl/graphics/induc/ind-ded.html
              • Logged
              « Last Edit: February 15, 2012, 01:31:19 PM by WarriorPriestess »
              "Through dangers untold and hardships unnumbered, I have fought my way here to the castle beyond the Goblin City.  For my will is as strong as yours, and my kingdom as great.  You have no power over me."

              • *
              • MLCer Type: Low-Energy
              • Hero Member
              • Posts: 1083
              • Gender: Male
              • Paid in Pain, So Where's the Gain?
              Re: Hope, Expectations & Probability
              #18: February 15, 2012, 01:30:14 PM
              Thundar I do not believe that she was trying to say we have little or no chance. She is merely pointing out that no hard numbers exist and that if they did they would have a probability of being very low because of all the individual circumstances. She is further pointing out that NONE OF THAT SHOULD MATTER!
              The decision to Stand should not be based on percent of probability but on your own heartfelt decision. I struggled terribly with this as I think everyone did. I agree that men have the worst time with it because we try to look at it logically and weigh the odds of success. But in the end no odds make the difference. It is still a personal decision. Also this movement is in it's infancy, like many things before it the odds will improve with more trial and error. The more people stand the better the odds that a workable practice will evolve from it.
              • Logged

              • *
              • MLCer Type: Low-Energy
              • Hero Member
              • Posts: 1083
              • Gender: Male
              • Paid in Pain, So Where's the Gain?
              Re: Hope, Expectations & Probability
              #19: February 15, 2012, 01:31:58 PM
              Oh and hello Thundar
              I have seen you post in a number of threads but have not had the opportunity to say hello.
              • Logged

              k
              • *****
              • Hero Member
              • Posts: 6918
              • Gender: Female
              Re: Hope, Expectations & Probability
              #20: February 15, 2012, 01:57:02 PM
              Quote
              One of the main reasons some of you will not recover your marriages is because you will change your mind about Standing. You may give up, feeling defeated and as though you failed (though let’s hope not) or you may change your mind about wanting to be married to your MLCer.

              This from RCR's post hit home for me.  We don't know the outcome, but it will definitely change the course of things if we choose to change our minds about standing.   Standing is not for the faint hearted. 

              Quote
              I am not a robot. I can't turn my feelings on and off. If I could, wouldn't I be just like my MLC spouse?

              Confused - your post expressed a lot of what I feel also.  This I especially liked.  People expect us to be able to do that.  They expect us to be like the MLCer.  Hadn't thought about it that way before.
              • Logged
              « Last Edit: February 15, 2012, 01:59:00 PM by kikki »

              • *****
              • Hero Member
              • Posts: 6485
              • Gender: Male
              Re: Hope, Expectations & Probability
              #21: February 15, 2012, 02:21:37 PM
              Hello Riven!!  Great to meet you, and sorry it's under such circumstances. 
              • Logged
              One day at a time.

              Thundarr

              • *****
              • Hero Member
              • Posts: 1613
              • Gender: Female
              Re: Hope, Expectations & Probability
              #22: February 15, 2012, 02:25:58 PM
              Thanks RCR ....this article answered a lot of questions for me ............i too feel that i have hope and whilst my gut continues to tell me im doing the right thing by standing i will ...........thank you xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
              • Logged
              Life is like photography, you use the negatives to develop!!!!!
              H returned after 8 years bd may 2009 multiple returner high energy cling boomerang

              W
              • *****
              • Hero Member
              • Posts: 2443
              • Gender: Female
              • VICTORY
              Re: Hope, Expectations & Probability
              #23: February 15, 2012, 02:29:41 PM
              Maybe wanting to quantify the numbers and trends is more important to those who prefer to play the odds?  RCR seems to see that as a trend in the male LBSers.  For those who are determined to beat the odds, no matter what they are, it's really not an issue.  I also think the way that we approach the solution, as I mentioned earlier, through inductive vs. deductive reasoning has something to do with it.  Just rambling here, but it is an interesting discussion!
              • Logged
              « Last Edit: February 15, 2012, 02:34:02 PM by WarriorPriestess »
              "Through dangers untold and hardships unnumbered, I have fought my way here to the castle beyond the Goblin City.  For my will is as strong as yours, and my kingdom as great.  You have no power over me."

              f
              • *
              • MLCer Type: Boomerang
              • Jr. Member
              • Posts: 92
              • Gender: Female
              Re: Hope, Expectations & Probability
              #24: February 15, 2012, 02:36:03 PM
              Confused,

              I agree with what you have said.....I have hope because the moment God shows me there is no Hope for reconciliation with my H, then I will move on.  I am 3 years post bomb drop, have dealt with alot, and sometimes want to just meet someone else.  I am doing as you.....mine is not live in; our 3 teen boys live with me......but we are managing one day at a time....it used to be 1 hour at a time!

              Huggs
              • Logged
              Faithled
              "For I know the plans I have for you declares the Lord, plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future" Jeremiah 29:11

              • *****
              • Administrator
              • Hero Member
              • Posts: 3010
              • Gender: Female
                • The Hero's Spouse
              Re: Hope, Expectations & Probability
              #25: February 15, 2012, 02:41:39 PM
              In the be-all and end-all, all of us have a 50/50 chance.  They'll either return or they won't.

              I agree with your first sentence here Thundarr.  I disagree with the second.  The part I take issue with, and that I took issue with in your previous post on the L2 thread, was the generalizing.  No one on this board, you or anyone else, can speak with authority for what will happen to ALL OF US (or any individual one of us for that matter).  There are too many conditions, too many variables, to categorize ALL LBSers or ALL MLCers under one umbrella.  That is what I meant when I said earlier to "speak for yourself."  In the end, that is all any of us can do with certainty.

              Interesting...
              I actually took Thundaar's statement to mean the latter part and not to really be about odds--even though he worded it that way. 50/50 not as a percentage, but one of two things will happen:
              They'll either return or they won't.
              • Logged

              s
              • *
              • Newbie
              • Posts: 3
              • Gender: Female
              • Hoping there's safety in numbers.
                • After the Affair
              Re: Hope, Expectations & Probability
              #26: February 15, 2012, 04:00:52 PM
              Just found this board today and my head is spinning.  I've been reading for hours, not posting, just kind of lurking and learning.  But, I wanted to respond about hope as that seems to be my theme today.

              I use a blog to purge my cluttered brain. 
              http://ayearaftertheaffair.blogspot.com/2011/12/totally-clueless.html
              It helps me to have somewhere to go to vent, remember, analyze and heal.  Earlier, on another support message board for people dealing with affairs in their marriages, one of the participants asked me to write about where I was in my journey.  My BD was 10/12/10.  The first year after was a total wash.  Then, I found the wonderful people on Healing Heart. 
              Here's the link if you want to check it out.  http://www.network54.com/Forum/233195/
              Found more hope there than with any therapist.  Still have bad days, sad days and some extremely mad days, but I can cope.  And with that, there's hope.  I have not forgiven my H, but I have accepted what he did.  In that, there's hope.  I stopped trying to change my H and focused on healing me.  That's a work in progress filled with hope.
              I wish hope for all of you.
              • Logged
              Hope & Hugs,
              Shawn

              D
              • *****
              • Hero Member
              • Posts: 2987
              • Gender: Male
              Re: Hope, Expectations & Probability
              #27: February 15, 2012, 04:50:43 PM
              I agree that men have the worst time with it because we try to look at it logically and weigh the odds of success. But in the end no odds make the difference. It is still a personal decision

              As a man, I probably do look at it from a logical perspective.  But I don't weigh the odds of success of a return.....I think that's putting the cart before the horse......I look at it from the likelihood of my MLCer making it through her crisis.  The odds of the MLCer making it through their crisis seems very high.

              From RCR's article Stories and Human Behavior

              How your MLCer is now is not indicative of who he might become. An MLCer may become stuck, but those are the rare cases. More common is for a person to regret their actions--often when they are too late because the spouse has closed the opportunity for marital reconciliation

              In his book "Women in Midlife Crisis", Jim Conway writes that as the crisis winds down, there is a gradual return to the core values that were previously held, only more mature and refined.

              So I don't focus on a possible return.  If/when my ex-wife completes her crisis and returns to the core values she held prior to her crisis, then a return can be possible if not probable.
              • Logged

              • **
              • Jr. Member
              • Posts: 49
              • Gender: Male
              Re: Hope, Expectations & Probability
              #28: February 15, 2012, 06:39:20 PM
              RCR's article was very well done, I must say. I think though that will probably never be any quantifiable data as far as reconciliations etc. There are far too many variables. It gets down to everyone has a shot at reconciling. Whether they do or not just depends on to many variables, You would have to have a HUGE amount of studies done in order to get any data, We are the sum total of our experinces, and although we will all have some things in common we will never have the same life. Therefor our experience and personality will be different, The same holds for the MLCer, The reasons for the crisis may be similar, but not identical, add the differing experiences, the environmental factors, the personality of the spouse, kids, no kids, etc. The list goes on and on, the type of MLCer, Vanisher, Touch and Go, Clinging Boomerang. What it  gets down to is that all things being equal, we all have about the same chance of Reconciling as any other person here.

              So I believe that this site is not about reconciling, it is not about anything more than allowing the LBS to reclaim their life, give them the tools to know their own mind, to be who they were meant to be, and then allow them to chart their own course in their life, whether that being to stand, or move on. I may be way off. but that is what I see.
              • Logged
              I Live moment to moment

              M
              • *****
              • Hero Member
              • Posts: 5219
              • Gender: Female
              Re: Hope, Expectations & Probability
              #29: February 15, 2012, 07:26:27 PM
                     After reading all of RCRs articles a year ago I decided that Standing was like most other things in life. You get out of things what you put into them. ??? ;D
                     On my first day of pharmacy school the professor told us the attrition rate was 50% . That meant if I looked around the classroom half of us wouldn't make it.    ::)
                     Then in rehab 11 years ago for alcoholism the counselors told us "60% of you won't make it through with your sobriety."
                    If I based my ability to succeed at any endeavor in life by what the odds were of succeeding I probably wouldn't have tried at all!  :P
                    It is true that your odds of winning the lottery are less than getting struck by lightning.  :o :o So if I ever win the lottery I'll probably walk outside and immediately be hit by a bolt! Zap!   ;D  Thanks RCR!
              • Logged

              • *****
              • Hero Member
              • Posts: 1041
              • Gender: Female
              • The Message is in the Music!
              Re: Hope, Expectations & Probability
              #30: February 15, 2012, 08:25:34 PM
                     After reading all of RCRs articles a year ago I decided that Standing was like most other things in life. You get out of things what you put into them. ??? ;D
                     On my first day of pharmacy school the professor told us the attrition rate was 50% . That meant if I looked around the classroom half of us wouldn't make it.    ::)
                     Then in rehab 11 years ago for alcoholism the counselors told us "60% of you won't make it through with your sobriety."
                    If I based my ability to succeed at any endeavor in life by what the odds were of succeeding I probably wouldn't have tried at all!  :P
                    It is true that your odds of winning the lottery are less than getting struck by lightning.  :o :o So if I ever win the lottery I'll probably walk outside and immediately be hit by a bolt! Zap!   ;D  Thanks RCR!


              Right to the point! I love the way you said all of that, Mamma! :)
              • Logged
              Me 35 ~ Pisces   
              Him 37 ~ Gemini 
              I was 13 ~ he was 15 ~ Together for 19 years. Doomed from the start?
              We never married ~ no children ~ two cats ~ Bomb Drop ~ 6/22/09 ~ he left to be w/ the Op & Op's kid
              Atomic Bomb Drop ~ 3/22/12 ~ found out they had a child in early February, 2012 ( 2 weeks before my BDay )

              In 100 years, none of this will matter but time is still. (( hugs & prayers to all ))

              W
              • *****
              • Hero Member
              • Posts: 2443
              • Gender: Female
              • VICTORY
              Re: Hope, Expectations & Probability
              #31: February 15, 2012, 08:28:30 PM
              I agree.  Well said Mamma!
              • Logged
              "Through dangers untold and hardships unnumbered, I have fought my way here to the castle beyond the Goblin City.  For my will is as strong as yours, and my kingdom as great.  You have no power over me."

              W
              • ****
              • Sr. Member
              • Posts: 496
              • Gender: Female
              Re: Hope, Expectations & Probability
              #32: February 15, 2012, 09:22:44 PM
              That's great and so true Mamma. One additional thing I'll add is that the reality nowadays is that few are actually choosing to stand in today's disposable society. So I like to think that just the fact that WE are choosing to stand for our marriages/relationships stacks the odds in OUR favor!! That's my opinion anyway. How many times have we all been told to just move on??
              • Logged
              Me-37
              H-36
              D2
              Met-1995/Married-2001
              BD-11/2010
              H Moved Out-02/2011
              H Filed-03/2012
              Divorced-06/2012

              • *
              • Mentor
              • Hero Member
              • Posts: 2127
              • Gender: Female
              Re: Hope, Expectations & Probability
              #33: February 15, 2012, 09:48:48 PM
              Dear Confused, Sands, and all,

              Excerpts:
              Quote
              I am in limbo at the moment. I did not think that I would find myself in this place. Not wanting to Stand anymore. As of late, since no contact with H, I've felt anger of what he has done. I can't get it off my mind that he chose THAT over me, our children, our family, our future. THAT thing that was able to persuade him to an illicit affair. How dare he do this to me!!!!!   Now that I have had the time to think, reassess my marriage. It was never good. NEVER. Why would I want that back? He is incapable of being the man I want, the man I need. What has helped me through this from the beginning is the thought that we could have it better than ever. This is just fantasy now.
               

              I relate to all that you have said. I am 20 months post BD. My H and I were together 25 years and now he has chosen alcohol, porn, cybersex, adultery with two women I believed to be "dear friends" and at least one other woman. He is still with my former friend whose divorce is now final and he is pressing to move forward legally. So, in a nutshell, I have surrendered. I am not helping the separation or divorce along except to respond appropriately as needed, but it is also no use to beg, cajole, or otherwise drag my feet. My H is a total vanisher from me and from D15. It is as if he has died, but without the service, the casseroles and the fellow mourners to help me through. Add to that the fact that all involved parties have the same mutual friends, as do our children, and well... it's a pretty ugly, dire sitch. 

              My H has never been a strong man and I cannot imagine him having the commitment, the humility or the strength or desire to even try to fix this. D and I are merely collateral damage.  It's gutting, and devastating and cruel on so many fronts. BUT I now understand that the standing has been as much for me and D as it has been for H and my marriage. Not rushing the process has given me the "gift of time" as OP says.  It has allowed me to begin to get my brain around this (still a work in progress), give my D two more years in our family home and two more years of her beloved homeschooling. It has given me two more years of medical and dental coverage, etc., of counseling and coming to terms, and getting stronger and making some new friends...

              It has not been ideal and I would not wish this on anyone, but I am glad that I did not respond in a knee-jerk fashion in the beginning. This time provided an odd sort of stability within which I could begin to get used to the changes and the truth of my life and marriage as it now is.  It gave me the time to stop romanticizing my H and my marriage and see them in their true light, and it gave my D the time to go from age 13 to age 15 so she may have more say if there is a custody or visitation agreement issue as we proceed. 

              This is not to say that I have not stood for my marriage or that I don't hold out hope, but I am also saying that standing can have a more broad basis as well.  And sometimes I think it is only after we get to the place of knowing we can survive either way, that we can really choose to stand for the right reasons. In the early days, as much as I would say that I was standing for my marriage, I was also standing out of desperation, fear, shame, financial security and dependence, "only for the children," etc. I felt compelled to stand rather than completely choosing it from a place of calm and genuine freedom. I also had not yet come to the acceptance that the OW (as much as it hurts to have been also betrayed by a friend) could not have persuaded H into anything he did not want to do. I know it is tempting to put the blame there, but in terms of our marriages, our spouses betrayed us and if it was not this OW/OM, it would most likely have been another.  To give OW/OM the power to determine the course of our marriage, doesn't help us. The reality is that our partner chose something and/or someone over his/her family and we must look at that honestly and do the individual work around that truth whether we reconcile or not.  If our spouse is not strong enough, well enough, or committed enough to be faithful to our marriage and our family, that is something we have to face and make honest decisions about.

              As grief stricken as I am about my H, MLC, and this legal process, I also have to face the truth that he is not the man I need or deserve. He has a long way to go. He has never demonstrated the kind of strength that is needed to get through and beyond this. I have no idea how he, I or our D would/could ever move past this. AND he has opted to end the marriage. So, while I have not made a formal decision not to stand, it does seem rather futile in my sitch, so I am choosing to ride the waves. I am not paddling the boat or trying to go faster, but I am also not fighting the current. I am releasing, deferring to a higher wisdom and letting the decision to stand or not stand be fluid at this point.

              It is not easy, but I know that much of the lesson that this experience is meant to teach me is that I cannot control everything, that I may not always know what is best or what is around the next corner, and that sometimes there is nothing left but hope/faith, grace, dignity, and letting go...

              I wish you deep peace and healing.
              XO~
              Phoenix

                 
              • Logged
              « Last Edit: February 15, 2012, 09:50:12 PM by Phoenix »
              Married 24 years
              Together 30
              D (young adult now)
              BD 2010
              He is a vanisher
              Divorced 2016

              • *
              • MLCer Type: Clinging Boomerang
              • Hero Member
              • Posts: 4622
              • Gender: Female
              • Husband: 46
              Re: Hope, Expectations & Probability
              #34: February 15, 2012, 10:49:21 PM
              Standing: It's not for everyone. Let yourself off the hook, if that's what you need. Those that stand, feel CALLED, I believe.... no special "purpose"... no special "reward". Perhaps it is ordained.... it is RIGHT for our time in our lives. For some that found our website... they are not standers... but needed a calm place to rest.

              For me... I feel compelled to stand. I would never have imagined it.... I see glimpses of the possibility with my man.... it has EVERYTHING to do with HOW HE TREATS ME, and nothing to do with his flaws. He may be a drinker... a tv watcher... a non-traveler.... non-intellectual... conspiracy theorist....whatever..... but if he treats me like a QUEEN... admires me for who I am.... encourages me to be my own self....  that might be enough!  :)
              • Logged
              "Even if you're on the right track, you'll get run over if you just sit there."

              -- Will Rogers

              The softest of stuff in the world penetrates quickly the hardest insubstantial. It enters where no room is...

              Lao Tsu

              • *****
              • Hero Member
              • Posts: 6485
              • Gender: Male
              Re: Hope, Expectations & Probability
              #35: February 15, 2012, 10:52:47 PM
              Excellent post, Phoenix.  Just excellent.  A reminder that what we want may not be what's best for us.
              • Logged
              One day at a time.

              Thundarr

              c
              • *****
              • Hero Member
              • Posts: 958
              • Gender: Female
              Re: Hope, Expectations & Probability
              #36: February 16, 2012, 03:13:02 AM
              Thank you for that post RCR.

              Both your recent info and HBs was somehow something I needed to read right now, amazing eh! that you both should post something that I feel is so relevent to me at this present time.

              Thanks again CrazyJ x
              • Logged

              • *
              • MLCer Type: Low-Energy
              • Hero Member
              • Posts: 1083
              • Gender: Male
              • Paid in Pain, So Where's the Gain?
              Re: Hope, Expectations & Probability
              #37: February 16, 2012, 05:34:04 AM
              I loved readin your post Phoenix I felt that way exactly at one point. I let things take on that fluid state, I lived with that state for 6 months or so until I decided for me it WAS worth Standing. Thank you for reminding me of the time it was a healing place for me.
              • Logged

              T
              • ****
              • Sr. Member
              • Posts: 371
              • Gender: Female
              Re: Hope, Expectations & Probability
              #38: February 16, 2012, 06:32:23 AM
              Fabulous thread.  Exactly what I needed to "see" right now.

              RCR, thank you for the article.  It's an expansion on what you've written on this topic before and obviously based on all you've been learning running this site for the past two years.  Great addition to the MLC/LBS "literature"!

              Confused, thank you for putting into words something I've so often puzzled over.  The "hope yet no expectations" conundrum.  You succinctly described the seeming contradiction/paradox of the choice to stand.

              Phoenix, I'm right with you.  My emotional state is very similar to yours at this time, and I love your description of keeping the standing decision "fluid." 

              Mamma Bear, thank you for sharing the "stats" from your pharmacy program and rehab.  What a powerful reminder we MUST accept we are first and foremost individuals and that "predictions" about our future based on the experiences of others needs to be kept in perspective.  Statistics aren't crystal balls that tell the future.  God has a plan for each of us that we cannot know in advance.  The longer I'm on my MLC journey, the more I've come to believe trust is closer to the truth than "facts."

              Thank you all!

              TMHP
              • Logged
              M 40 yrs.
              BD 1/11
              Began living with OW 1/11
              Divorce final 8/13
              Ex married OW 6/15

              God, grant me the serenity to accept the people I cannot change; the courage to change the one I can; and the wisdom to know it's me.

              F
              • *****
              • Hero Member
              • Posts: 1222
              • Gender: Female
              Re: Hope, Expectations & Probability
              #39: February 16, 2012, 07:58:46 AM
              Letting Go,

               You never mentioned love, what about love. All those things that you mentioned I can get from my friends. But, what about love? Just asking............

              C
              • Logged
              Finding Hope

              W
              • **
              • Jr. Member
              • Posts: 95
              • Gender: Male
              Re: Hope, Expectations & Probability
              #40: February 16, 2012, 08:47:35 AM
              First I want to say I did not know that this site is about only as old as my BD. I have learned so much here. It has been so helpful in how I handle my MLCer. The advise here works for the most part. My MLCer came back in May 2011. She is still in replay or has moved to depression hard to tell for sure since BD is only 18 months ago but I don't see alot of re-play behavior anymore. Thank God. I feel to the most part she loves me and that is why she is back and with the help of this site I will ride the journey the best I can with her as I love her and I know this site and the people here are here to help. But I have become so much stronger in knowing I can move on without her if I need too and this is what seems to be why she is back because she did not want to use me. I think somewhere they know there is something wrong with there thinking but afarid to admit or face there fears. I was somewhat the same way when she made me the LBS but now I am so much stronger. This site is what helped me get to this place in my life so I just wanted to say thanks.
              • Logged
              Bomb drop 8/1/10. She has been out and back twice. Had an affair with a woman she met at work who no longer works there. We have never talked about her MLC. I am waiting for her to want to talk.

              • *****
              • Hero Member
              • Posts: 6485
              • Gender: Male
              Re: Hope, Expectations & Probability
              #41: February 16, 2012, 10:08:34 AM
              T and C,

              So happy for you!!  I hope you guys are able to work through the final stages and live happily ever after.  It's so great to hear positive news!!
              • Logged
              One day at a time.

              Thundarr

              W
              • *****
              • Hero Member
              • Posts: 2443
              • Gender: Female
              • VICTORY
              Re: Hope, Expectations & Probability
              #42: February 18, 2012, 10:56:41 PM
              So I had a Star Wars movie marathon this week, and one of the lines totally made me think of this thread lol.  You know that scene where Han Solo is flying into an asteroid field with the Empire fleet hot on his tail?  C3P0 is reciting the extreme odds against surviving, and Solo replies, "Never tell me the odds."  Yep, he made it and survived anyway.  Absolutely PERFECT!   ;D

              • Logged
              "Through dangers untold and hardships unnumbered, I have fought my way here to the castle beyond the Goblin City.  For my will is as strong as yours, and my kingdom as great.  You have no power over me."

              W
              • *****
              • Hero Member
              • Posts: 2443
              • Gender: Female
              • VICTORY
              Re: Hope, Expectations & Probability
              #43: February 18, 2012, 11:15:01 PM
              Fyi if anyone is interested, George Lucas based the original SW trilogy on the classic hero's journey that Joseph Campbell details so brilliantly in his work on myth.  Good stuff.  :)

              I recommend reading The Hero With a Thousand Faces by Campbell for anyone interested in the mythological and archetypal elements that confront us all throughout life.  We ALL live the hero's journey in one way or another.  I believe myths developed as a way to guide young people into facing and passing through developmental stages and challenges in a healthy and individuated manner.  Perhaps our loss of the mythic element in society plays some role in the rise of MLC and other psychological and developmental issues. 


              Edit to add:
              There is also a wonderful six part series called The Power of Myth with Bill Moyers interviewing Joseph Campbell.  Here is a link to Part One on Youtube on "The Hero's Journey"-
              http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OhU99yaOcjw
              • Logged
              « Last Edit: February 18, 2012, 11:26:30 PM by WarriorPriestess »
              "Through dangers untold and hardships unnumbered, I have fought my way here to the castle beyond the Goblin City.  For my will is as strong as yours, and my kingdom as great.  You have no power over me."

              k
              • *****
              • Hero Member
              • Posts: 6918
              • Gender: Female
              Re: Hope, Expectations & Probability
              #44: February 18, 2012, 11:21:39 PM
              Quote
              I believe myths developed as a way to guide young people into facing and passing through developmental stages and challenges in a healthy and individuated manner.  Perhaps our loss of the mythic element in society plays some role in the rise of MLC and other psychological and developmental issues.

              I think you may be right about this WP
              • Logged

              • *
              • MLCer Type: Low-Energy
              • Hero Member
              • Posts: 1083
              • Gender: Male
              • Paid in Pain, So Where's the Gain?
              Re: Hope, Expectations & Probability
              #45: February 19, 2012, 05:33:31 AM
              I believe myths developed as a way to guide young people into facing and passing through developmental stages and challenges in a healthy and individuated manner.  Perhaps our loss of the mythic element in society plays some role in the rise of MLC and other psychological and developmental issues. 


              I have always believed this to be true. But further we as a group have lost much in our transition to "modern humans" The tradition of the Story Teller was another way that wisdom was passed to each generation. In our head long rush to the future we have left behind so much, but some would say that the written book has replaced the story teller. Not true sure we wrote all the stories down but now there is so much written word that each generation forgets to read those things that might TEACH something. Instead they are addicted to only the entertainment kind of material, if it does not have vampires, guns and explosions they will not read or watch it. LOL
              • Logged

              • *****
              • Administrator
              • Hero Member
              • Posts: 3010
              • Gender: Female
                • The Hero's Spouse
              Re: Hope, Expectations & Probability
              #46: February 19, 2012, 06:08:55 AM
              I recommend reading The Hero With a Thousand Faces by Campbell for anyone interested in the mythological and archetypal elements that confront us all throughout life. We ALL live the hero's journey in one way or another.  I believe myths developed as a way to guide young people into facing and passing through developmental stages and challenges in a healthy and individuated manner.
              I think synchronicity is often at work in our lives. My background as a writer is Traditional Tales—myths, fairytales, folk tales… Campbell, of course, has always been a major part of my studies (the single greatest influence) and it was he that led me to greater studies of Jung…before MLC. I believe that it was my familiarity with The Hero’s Journey that led me to be able to write about MLC as I have. My short article, A Midlife Metaphor in Brief is a reworking of a speech I gave for one of my writing classes a few years before MLC.

              My fantasy person from history to meet is Joseph Campbell. But I change the rules a bit and say I want to have my Grandpa there too—Grandpa would love that. I was interested in Traditional Tales when Campbell’s PBS series was running, but it was another year or so before I took Latin and studied classical mythology and a year beyond that before I took my one and only Psychology class where they introduced Campbell in such a way that for years I thought he was a Psychologist. But I fantasize of going back and scheduling to watch the original airing of the series with Grandpa… who was as great and wonderful as Campbell. I also fantasize of being younger and taking a trip with Grandpa to meet Campbell and how they would hit it off!


              Perhaps our loss of the mythic element in society plays some role in the rise of MLC and other psychological and developmental issues.
              I really want to go back to school for my PhD. I don’t know if it will happen, but I won’t let the dream die and will continue to keep it as a goal. There is a school that integrates Depth (Jungian) Psychology with Mythological Studies that has the structure (distance) I would require and if it didn’t it would still be my first pick!. I am on the mailing list—been on it since before MLC. It has several different programs in Psychology, Mythology and even Marriage & Family Therapy.
              Logically Psychology seems to make sense for me to study, but I want my main focus to be Mythological Studies—that was the goal before MLC.
              But since MLC I know (for now) that the area in which I want to focus is Rites of Passage and (DUH) the Midlife Passage in particular and of course focusing on midlife and marriage.

              • Logged

              • *
              • Mentor
              • Hero Member
              • Posts: 12305
              • Gender: Female
              Re: Hope, Expectations & Probability
              #47: February 19, 2012, 08:12:03 AM
              Thanks WP for this:
              Quote
              You know that scene where Han Solo is flying into an asteroid field with the Empire fleet hot on his tail?  C3P0 is reciting the extreme odds against surviving, and Solo replies, "Never tell me the odds."  Yep, he made it and survived anyway.
              My all time favourite movie!!!!!!

              RCR...keep that dream alive to get your PhD!!!!!! That would be awesome.

              I am fascinated by your discussion on myths....and will add that to my list of things that I want to explore further...seems that list continues to grow and the bucket is overflowing these days as I wait...how I hate that word.
              • Logged
              "Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see" Hebrews 11:1

              "You enrich my life and are a source of joy and consolation to me. But if I lose you, I will not, I must not spend the rest of my life in unhappiness."

              " The truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it". Flannery O'Connor

              https://www.midlifecrisismarriageadvocate.com/chapter-contents.html

              W
              • *****
              • Hero Member
              • Posts: 2443
              • Gender: Female
              • VICTORY
              Re: Hope, Expectations & Probability
              #48: February 19, 2012, 10:56:44 AM
              That is lovely RCR!  I think of synchronicities as signs that I am on the right path in my life, a sort of divine confirmation.  I got my M.A. in a Consciousness Studies program with cross cultural studies in psychology, mythology, religion, art, dreams, quantum physics, etc.  I am extremely fascinated with the mystical and the mythical, and incorporating and applying knowledge in a holistic manner.  I have thought about going back for my Ph.D. as well, but frankly am tired of writing papers lol!  I still research on my own.  I love to learn.  It sounds like we have similar interests.  :)

              Xyzcf, it is fascinating stuff.  You should definitely check it out.  :)
              • Logged
              « Last Edit: February 19, 2012, 11:15:15 AM by WarriorPriestess »
              "Through dangers untold and hardships unnumbered, I have fought my way here to the castle beyond the Goblin City.  For my will is as strong as yours, and my kingdom as great.  You have no power over me."

              L
              • *
              • Mentor
              • Hero Member
              • Posts: 8355
              • Gender: Female
              Re: Hope, Expectations & Probability
              #49: February 21, 2012, 03:56:45 PM
              I have been reading this discussion with intense fascination. I was never good at math so perhaps that will give me a leg up to continue to stand. LOL I don't understand odds or statistics at all. As I continue to heal and grow, I am entering a phase of calm and distance from my H. That doesn't mean I don't have the confusion over how to keep behaving to keep the door open. But I think that Phoenix summed it up best that she is riding the current. The fear that is there is more about where the current will take you than actually being in the current.

              Would I like my marriage to survive? Absolutely! Would I like it to be better than it was? Without a doubt. But I am slowly coming to the realization that I have no control over whether or not H returns. That is his choice to make. My only choice is whether or not to leave that door open.

              The time frame talked about here is scary. 3-7 years of holding a door is exhausting. But the longer I am in this, it is a Gift of Time. I don't have to do anything permanent. I would love to be able to be one of the ones whose H returns. Not just for me, but to give the rest of you hope that it could happen. So for now, I will continue to Stand. Not solely to reconcile, but to just be.

              I never thought about the correlation between myths and MLC, but I have always known that those tales taught behaviors and lessons. I think there may be some issue too with how we currently relate to one another. The instant communication afforded through phones, internet and social media are wonderful, but at what cost. People don't know how to relate on a personal level any longer. Maybe that's why a lot of the MLCers are so young now. A lot are in their 30's.

              So statistics be damned. Do what is good for you and what you feel in your gut.
              • Logged
              trying2bok

              • *
              • MLCer Type: Low-Energy
              • Hero Member
              • Posts: 1083
              • Gender: Male
              • Paid in Pain, So Where's the Gain?
              Re: Hope, Expectations & Probability
              #50: February 21, 2012, 04:39:51 PM
              The instant communication afforded through phones, internet and social media are wonderful, but at what cost. People don't know how to relate on a personal level any longer. Maybe that's why a lot of the MLCers are so young now. A lot are in their 30's.

              So statistics be damned. Do what is good for you and what you feel in your gut.


              I say this to my D all the time! You must learn to shut off the devices and cut yourself off from the flow of drama coming from your friends. The instant communication is great but also has a darker side. In my town we have lost 4 teens in less than 3 years to suicide I feel that Im's, the internet, and texting played a part in this. When we were kids the flow of information was tempered with time and distance. Yes we had phones but that was limited, my parents did not want me on the phone for hours on end. Bad news traveled slower and the drama was not as intense when it had to wait until the next day to be told or even over the weekend for some. Now they can and do say whatever comes into their heads the minute it does and sometimes it cannot be taken back, they do not give themselves time to contemplate things before they are said. Also teens are the cruelest animals on the face of the planet as far as I can tell. Anyway my point being that those tragedies were sent out by text within minutes of being discovered without any knowledge or preparation by parents. My D was devastated by 2 of them and I just wish I had been able to tell her in a more gentle way then to have in broadcast.


              I always followed my gut instincts, and was able to do some of the correct things even before I found this site and it's wonderful insights. My gut or rather my heart has never guided me wrong ands I do believe in my heart that I will be reunited with my W in time. I am reminded all the time that this is a journey that will not end if and when we reunite, I think that is part of the problem we loose sight of the journey we started when we married and become bogged down in everyday life. Modern life is fraught with pitfalls that we can become trapped in without even knowing we are in danger.
              • Logged

              • *****
              • Hero Member
              • Posts: 16546
              • Gender: Female
              Re: Hope, Expectations & Probability
              #51: February 21, 2012, 06:43:44 PM
              Speaking of Syncronicities, I was going through this thread and a friend was talking about Ithaka and another friend come up with this poem by the Greek born poet Konstantinos Kaváfis


              Ithaca

              When you set out on your journey to Ithaca,
              pray that the road is long,
              full of adventure, full of knowledge.
              The Lestrygonians and the Cyclops,
              the angry Poseidon -- do not fear them:
              You will never find such as these on your path,
              if your thoughts remain lofty, if a fine
              emotion touches your spirit and your body.
              The Lestrygonians and the Cyclops,
              the fierce Poseidon you will never encounter,
              if you do not carry them within your soul,
              if your soul does not set them up before you.

              Pray that the road is long.
              That the summer mornings are many, when,
              with such pleasure, with such joy
              you will enter ports seen for the first time;
              stop at Phoenician markets,
              and purchase fine merchandise,
              mother-of-pearl and coral, amber and ebony,
              and sensual perfumes of all kinds,
              as many sensual perfumes as you can;
              visit many Egyptian cities,
              to learn and learn from scholars.

              Always keep Ithaca in your mind.
              To arrive there is your ultimate goal.
              But do not hurry the voyage at all.
              It is better to let it last for many years;
              and to anchor at the island when you are old,
              rich with all you have gained on the way,
              not expecting that Ithaca will offer you riches.

              Ithaca has given you the beautiful voyage.
              Without her you would have never set out on the road.
              She has nothing more to give you.

              And if you find her poor, Ithaca has not deceived you.
              Wise as you have become, with so much experience,
              you must already have understood what Ithacas mean

              Ulysses journey told in the Odyssey can be seen as a MLC. Ulisses is the MCLer, Penelope, his wife, the LBS. He takes 20 years to return to Ithaka, his island and homeland. Before he starts the journey narrated in the Odyssey he had spend a long time away from home fighting in the Trojan War (that is narrated in the Iliad).

              Learning and Riven, I’m not so sure modern life and instant communication make MLC more prominent…The Odyssey is set on the 12th  century BC and was put into written form on the 8th century BC. Dante wrote The Divine Comedy (that can also be seen has a MLC journey) that starts with "When I had journeyed half of our life's way, I found myself within a shadowed forest, for I had lost the path that does not stray." in the 14th century AD. Dante will go to the depths of Hell, his has 9 circles, then to purgatory, and, at last, to heaven. He died at 56 so the middle of his life would had been at 28.

              Modern technology will enhance our perception of things but it does not means a certain condition was not existent or prevalent in the past. Also, being here in the forum makes us all more aware of MLC so we notice it more.
              • Logged
              Sometimes good things fall apart so better things can fall together. (Marilyn Monroe)

              E

              Ez

              • ***
              • Full Member
              • Posts: 117
              • Gender: Female
              Re: Hope, Expectations & Probability
              #52: February 21, 2012, 07:52:28 PM
              This time last week I had hit rock bottom, I couldn't see a way forward because I couldn't see a future that I wanted.  The hurt, anger and despair I felt were so overwhelming that I had had enough, I didn't want to go on and felt like I just couldn't do this anymore.  I felt so humiliated and so blamed for all of the martial problems that I started to believe this was all my fault, that I was to blame and that I wasn't good enough.  Essentially I lost hope for my marriage, for myself and for my future.  Without hope all I had was despair.  The words of encouragement I got from members on this forum helped to pull me out of this despair, helped me to realise that I am only human, a human who cares, who has feelings, who has emotions. 

              So for me hope comes in many forms.  Yes i hope for my marriage to survive this.  I hope that he will regret what he has put me through.  I hope that I can get through this a better and stronger person whatever the outcome.  I hope my children will get through this without too many scars.  I also hope that the person I love most in the world, my best friend and my husband, can get through this and find happiness, contentment, self love, clarity and peace.  As hard as it is to be the LBS, to be the one that is blamed and criticised, it is also hard to see the person you love so confused, in such despair and making choices that hurt themselves and the ones they love.

              It is such a throw away society we live in today.  If something breaks you replace it instead of fixing it.  This includes relationships, jobs, careers, study, friends, family.  We are teaching our kids to replace anything that doesn't work or is too hard with something new instead of using and developing problem solving abilities to try and fix what is seemingly broken.  We are also a society that wants everything new and modern and can't be happy with the old and out dated.  We find happiness in possessions rather than relationships, and in turn find discontent with anything that isn't new and exciting including relationships.

              While I am an extremely emotional person, I am also very practical.  I agree with Thundarr, it's either going to work or it's not.  We all hope for the "it's going to work" part, but I think that if while standing we work on ourselves, building our own personal happiness, self love and self worth then we will be better able to cope with the "it's not part".

              I find hope through reading about reconnections but also from the strength and wisdom from those that are standing or have been where I am now whether they are with there spouse or not. 

              Today I am in a better place than I was last week and I have hope that my future will better than it is today. 

              Ez xx



              • Logged
              M-41
              H-43
              S-12 and S-8
              Together 14years, married 9
              H left - Sept 2011

              • *
              • Mentor
              • Hero Member
              • Posts: 12305
              • Gender: Female
              Re: Hope, Expectations & Probability
              #53: February 21, 2012, 08:57:47 PM
              Anne J thanks for sharing that. I will read it again as it certainly hits home.

              EZ...I still can't see my future too clearly..but I now know I want one and I feel more hope that it will be ok. If my Beloved returns, I think that might be harder than if he doesn't..time will tell.

              Spring is coming soon, and everything that appeared dead over the winter will soon start to bloom and be brought back to life. I think the darkness and bleakness has passed...although I suspect that there could be terrible storms ahead still. I now prepare myself for the shock that those storms bring, ride them out, seek shelter in God and my friends and have learned that the bad times pass..the sun comes out again.

              Good to here that you are doing well.
              • Logged
              "Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see" Hebrews 11:1

              "You enrich my life and are a source of joy and consolation to me. But if I lose you, I will not, I must not spend the rest of my life in unhappiness."

              " The truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it". Flannery O'Connor

              https://www.midlifecrisismarriageadvocate.com/chapter-contents.html

              W
              • *****
              • Hero Member
              • Posts: 2443
              • Gender: Female
              • VICTORY
              Re: Hope, Expectations & Probability
              #54: February 21, 2012, 08:58:56 PM
              Love that poem Anne!
              • Logged
              "Through dangers untold and hardships unnumbered, I have fought my way here to the castle beyond the Goblin City.  For my will is as strong as yours, and my kingdom as great.  You have no power over me."

              E

              Ez

              • ***
              • Full Member
              • Posts: 117
              • Gender: Female
              Re: Hope, Expectations & Probability
              #55: February 21, 2012, 09:28:33 PM
              Thx XY, you reminded me of the saying "be carful of what you hope/wish for".  We hope so much for our spouses to return but from what I've read it isn't all that it's cracked up to be and still takes time and a lot of work.  I spoke to my counsellor yesterday and she asked me what I wanted.  My first instinct is to say I wanted my H to come back but stopped and thought about it and replied "I want to find the strength to get through this crisis, to become a better and emotionally healthier person so that if my H comes back i have the strength and skills to then work on reconciliation and that if he doesn't come back I can see a future without him". 

              I've come to realise that there is no smooth sailing on this journey of MLC and there will always be storms.  May we all be prepared for the storms and yes ride them out with as little damage as possible.  Take Care,

              Ez xx
              • Logged
              M-41
              H-43
              S-12 and S-8
              Together 14years, married 9
              H left - Sept 2011

              s
              • *
              • Mentor
              • Hero Member
              • Posts: 14447
              • Gender: Female
              Re: Hope, Expectations & Probability
              #56: February 21, 2012, 11:32:56 PM
              I spoke to my counsellor yesterday and she asked me what I wanted.  My first instinct is to say I wanted my H to come back but stopped and thought about it and replied "I want to find the strength to get through this crisis, to become a better and emotionally healthier person so that if my H comes back i have the strength and skills to then work on reconciliation and that if he doesn't come back I can see a future without him". 


              This should be a POSTER... good statement, Ez'

              hugs Stayed
              • Logged
              Married 42yrs.
              Reconciled July 5, 2006

              "Don't be so open minded your brains fall out".  by Stephen A. Kallis, Jr.
              "We believe marriage is sacred, but it is not our job to save marriages; it is our goal to empower each of you to save your own marriage."

              Stayed Husband Letter
              The Hero's Spouse Mission Statement
              Survival Instructions for Newbies
              The Mentor Program
              LBS SCRIPT

              • *****
              • Hero Member
              • Posts: 1703
              • Gender: Female
              • “In adversity we know our friends."
              Re: Hope, Expectations & Probability
              #57: February 22, 2012, 05:34:26 AM
              WOW EZ, that's awesome.

              I agree with Stayed it should be a poster.  I have the Serentity Prayer printed out and hanging on my desk at work to see since last January.  You may want to print out what you wrote and put it somewhere that you can read.

              Sounds like some movement in the positive direction for you emotionally. 

              Sassy
              • Logged
              Do not anticipate trouble, or worry about what may never happen. Keep in the sunlight.
              Benjamin Franklin

              • *****
              • Hero Member
              • Posts: 709
              • Gender: Male
              Re: Hope, Expectations & Probability
              #58: February 22, 2012, 05:42:12 AM
              I spoke to my counsellor yesterday and she asked me what I wanted.  My first instinct is to say I wanted my H to come back but stopped and thought about it and replied "I want to find the strength to get through this crisis, to become a better and emotionally healthier person so that if my H comes back i have the strength and skills to then work on reconciliation and that if he doesn't come back I can see a future without him". 
              Beautifully put.

              Strength to you Ez.

              honour
              • Logged
              Me 52,T 34,M 28
              D 26, S23
              BD 19th Aug 2010
              Moved out 4th Dec 2010

              B
              • *****
              • Hero Member
              • Posts: 2227
              • Gender: Female
              Re: Hope, Expectations & Probability
              #59: February 22, 2012, 08:59:23 AM
              Put another accolade check mark in your column EZ....now THAT is healthy!
              Good going!

              Bon
               ;)
              • Logged
              "I have been studying the traits and dispositions of the "lower animals" (so called) and contrasting them with the traits and dispositions of man. I find the result humiliating to me."
              Mark Twain

               

              Legal Disclaimer

              The information contained within The Hero's Spouse website family (www.midlifecrisismarriageadvocate.com, http://theherosspouse.com and associated subdomains), (collectively 'website') is provided as general information and is not intended to be a substitute for professional legal, medical or mental health advice or treatment for specific medical conditions. The Hero's Spouse cannot be held responsible for the use of the information provided. The Hero's Spouse recommends that you consult a trained medical or mental health professional before making any decision regarding treatment of yourself or others. The Hero's Spouse recommends that you consult a legal professional for specific legal advice.

              Any information, stories, examples, articles, or testimonials on this website do not constitute a guarantee, or prediction regarding the outcome of an individual situation. Reading and/or posting at this website does not constitute a professional relationship between you and the website author, volunteer moderators or mentors or other community members. The moderators and mentors are peer-volunteers, and not functioning in a professional capacity and are therefore offering support and advice based solely upon their own experience and not upon legal, medical, or mental health training.