[OldPilot]

And, the final question he asked me was in reference to whether or not he thought my W actually would latch onto me as a foundation of trust and his reply was "Tell me why wouldn't she based on your knowledge of human behavior and psychology?"  Honestly, human nature and what we know about psychology would seem to dictate that she WOULD be driven to resolve this as it WOULD fit with our biological programming. 

This idea fits in with the idea that HB says is that the LBS is the PILLAR or the STANCHION and the LIGHTHOUSE that attracts the MLC'er back.
Of course she also has said that their are NO GUARANTEES as their is always FREE WILL on the part of the LBS and the MLCe'r.

[kikki]

Thinking a little more on covert depression, too.  Since some of our spouses had been diagnosed/misdiagnosed as bipolar, would it be fair to compare covert depression as we know it more with an extreme or extended manic episode?

Bipolar seems to be the nearest 'fit' in the DSM for the high energy replayers. 
Seems like a fair comparison to me.  What are your thoughts T?

Thanks so much for answering my questions earlier, and clarification of why psychologists/psychiatrists are unable to recognise MLC as such - doesn't fit with the DSM criteria. 

[Thundarr]

Manic (or more common hypomanic episodes) are pretty much the opposite of depression.  The person feels that they have more energy than they know what to do with and struggle with trying to focus it in ways that will help them reach the lofty dreams they think possible.  I have a client whose H is bipolar and non-medicated and she has structured her life around his manic and depressive episodes and can tell when they're coming ahead of time.  She said that she now keeps separate checking accounts and around this time of the year coaches the kids to just agree with everything their father says and leave him be as much as possible.  She said he's up until 2 every night looking for car parts on eBay for this super car he's going to build and if left to his own devices would blow all their money.  She said it's the same story every year and she knows this car will never be built, and around November he will crawl into a hole and be like a hermit to the family.  I found it interesting that she not only tolerates this but structures her life around it, and her reply was that it was all part of the marital vows.  I almost cried thinking about how she goes so out of her way to take care of her H and my W dumped me for liking wrestling.  So BS.

Btw, why is DGU not on this thread?  This is right up his alley.....

[underpressure]

Weighing in on Covert Depression:

Isn't it commonly accepted, or at least oftentimes expressed by a few observant folks that Men have a particular fear of being diagnosed with depression, as it seems like a stigma, or an attack on their manhood, and a critique of their value as a provider, etc.? Isn't it true that Covert Depression is Anger, Rage, Irritability, all these things they do to cover up and fight the depression?

My own father says he noticed one day that what he was experiencing was depression, or the start of a depression, and immediately said "I am putting a stop to this! I am simply not going to be depressed". My father has for at least 20 years been a rage-aholic of sorts, and is now a retired alcoholic.

[Ready2Transform]

Weighing in on Covert Depression:

Isn't it commonly accepted, or at least oftentimes expressed by a few observant folks that Men have a particular fear of being diagnosed with depression, as it seems like a stigma, or an attack on their manhood, and a critique of their value as a provider, etc.? Isn't it true that Covert Depression is Anger, Rage, Irritability, all these things they do to cover up and fight the depression?

I relate to this in my sitch.  "Manhood" has become some sort of major issue for him, and showing the so called weakness of depression (or anything emotional) as he had no trouble doing in the past, is totally off limits. 

The story you relate, Thundarr, about the woman and her bipolar H actually feels very similar to standing from my viewpoint, only longer term (and more inline with a wallower/no affair - though the car seems the fixation that may replace it).  It's curious to me that you compared your W to the wife in this case, and not the husband.   

[Dontgiveup]

Btw, why is DGU not on this thread?  This is right up his alley.....

I received a message about wondering why I hadn't posted on this thread, so I'll give my perspective.  It's not necessarily right up my alley.  I know there are those who are interested in a potential technical explanation or viewpoint of MLC.....but honestly I'm not one of those.

RCR and Jim Conway have put MLC into layman's terms......although I know not everyone grasps things like Liminality, the concept of the Shadow and that MLC is an emotional/developmental phase.  I am someone who does believe each of those things, and RCR's writing style put it in a way that gave me an understanding.

Between RCR and Jim Conway's writing, I have received the expertise that I am comfortable with.  I don't have a big interest past that.......but I'm sure there are many that appreciate the information of Thundarr's colleague.

[kikki]

Manic (or more common hypomanic episodes) are pretty much the opposite of depression.  The person feels that they have more energy than they know what to do with and struggle with trying to focus it in ways that will help them reach the lofty dreams they think possible.  I have a client whose H is bipolar and non-medicated and she has structured her life around his manic and depressive episodes and can tell when they're coming ahead of time.  She said that she now keeps separate checking accounts and around this time of the year coaches the kids to just agree with everything their father says and leave him be as much as possible.  She said he's up until 2 every night looking for car parts on eBay for this super car he's going to build and if left to his own devices would blow all their money.  She said it's the same story every year and she knows this car will never be built, and around November he will crawl into a hole and be like a hermit to the family.  I found it interesting that she not only tolerates this but structures her life around it, and her reply was that it was all part of the marital vows.  I almost cried thinking about how she goes so out of her way to take care of her H and my W dumped me for liking wrestling.  So BS.

I think psychologists think our spouses sound bipolar when in high energy replay because of the reckless spending of money, the sexual acting out, the lack of empathy for others while doing so etc.  One even said to me that the manic episodes can last for years and that it was possible to see zero evidence of it any earlier than midlife. 
So many different theories and opinions. 

Weighing in on Covert Depression:

Isn't it commonly accepted, or at least oftentimes expressed by a few observant folks that Men have a particular fear of being diagnosed with depression, as it seems like a stigma, or an attack on their manhood, and a critique of their value as a provider, etc.? Isn't it true that Covert Depression is Anger, Rage, Irritability, all these things they do to cover up and fight the depression?

My own father says he noticed one day that what he was experiencing was depression, or the start of a depression, and immediately said "I am putting a stop to this! I am simply not going to be depressed". My father has for at least 20 years been a rage-aholic of sorts, and is now a retired alcoholic.

Yes, from everything I have read on the subject UP, this is correct.
Terence Real's 'I don't want to talk about it' is one of the best books on the subject that I have seen.

The story you relate, Thundarr, about the woman and her bipolar H actually feels very similar to standing from my viewpoint, only longer term (and more inline with a wallower/no affair - though the car seems the fixation that may replace it).  It's curious to me that you compared your W to the wife in this case, and not the husband.   

Have to admit, I thought the same thing when I read this R2T.  Or were you being slightly 'tongue in cheek' here T?

[Anjae]

Thanks for the reply, T. Problem is, from what we know of the state our MLCer are they are not in a good place. Also, they were not in a bad place before. Guess they are the ones who go about it through counter-productive ways.

See, where it does not make sense to me is on the shattered foundation thing. If we were their foundation and it was not us, but them, that shattered/put the foundation away, why on earth would they want back to the foundation if, when they need it the most (during crisis) they choose to be adrift and with no foundation whatsoever? And why on earth would be want to be the safe heaven of a person that only see us as a foundation? I mean, we’re pretty much a toy they choose to leave and return to when convenient. Not a pleasant thought.

Husband’s foundation was, until he was 15, his paternal grandadad. Than granddad died. His foundation have been me since he is 17, along with is maternal grandmother. Grandmother died early 2010, he had putted me away some 6 years ago. Now, since according to your supervisor, we may no longer fit their needs and they may no longer want us, who is to say that OW/OM don’t become the MLCer foundation? Who is to say that their new life does not bring more pleasure and trust to them?

Since there are no guarantees (and on this I think everyone agrees), then, there is no logical reason to stand. There may be emotional/faith/want ones but no logical or scientifical reasons for it. And since human biological logic dictates we must return to a state of pleasure, the trials and tribulations a LBS endures through a spouse MLC go against that principle. At least in the way I see it.

Around here a functioning alcoholic is and alcoholic. And I think depression can be diagnosed within a less strick set or requirements than over there in the US. My hasband new he was depressed before BD(after BD and 18 months after BD. The doctor on his by then company confirmed he was depressed. The not sleeping, the change of habits, the irritation, the crying (that he did behind my back but talked about with OW) all confirm depression. The hypomania episode is the polar opposite of depression but he is followed by a depressive episode. Hence the bipolar/manic-depressive term. When I was still in our flat I could see it on my husband. Euphoria, then, totally flat. According to my friend who is a psychiatrist (and who has helped my MLC cousin) a bipolar patient is always a patient with depression. Depression is self contained within bipolarity.

As for the one (a therapist/doctor) cannot see how they are tearing apart their lives. Really? If you have someone who used to have a 9 to 5 job, did not drink, was married, and now you have someone who his always clubbing and not sleeping (alongb with a steady job), drinks to the point of forgetting what has happened, has left his marriage to go and live in a rented room and is seeing a woman he is not married to I would say this person has something. Only de heavy driking plus the lack of sleep and clubbing would telm me something was wrong/different. A radical change has ocorred. I may not be able to pin down what is going on but I have to be able to see a change in life pattern. And that was exactly what I and the doctor from my husabnd’s company saw. The doctor determined husband was depressed. And I would say has been since.

The difference with a bipolar spouse if that the bipolar spouse has a condition that is medically accepted and for wish there are medicines and support, understanding, etc. MLC is not a medically accepted condition and we are left standing for an uncertainty. With bipolarity there is a certainty, we know what we are dealing with and are told how to deal with it by professionals who are there for us when we need. No such luck in MLC. We are on our own.

[Thundarr]

Bipolar-manic certainly fits the description of their behaviors, but then many mental illnesses also mimic ADHD in a person who is not true ADHD. 

It never crossed my mind about W being like the woman's H as I was focused on how dedicated the W was, unlike my own.  Good catch, guys!

AnneJ,  I want to give a longer response to you but time is short right now.  Will revisit it later though.

[Anjae]

Will be looking forward for your reply, T. 

True, bipolar-manic fits their behaviors, but many mental illnesses mimic ADHD in someone who is not true ADHD.

That happens with other types of illnesses. We though my mum was becoming to have Alzeimer. It turned out it is Vascular Dementia. Some of the symptoms/behaviour are identical but they are two different types of dementia.