[since_youve_been_gone]

Hi all,

Just wondering if any knows why therapists do not recognise MLC and look at you like you are stark raving mad and deluded?

SYBG x

[dwlh]

I'm very new to this but I have thought a lot on the therapist thing. My theory is they didn't know the MLCer before the crisis so they don't see the change in them. My H looks and acts perfectly normal but his personality is completely different. Plus he can lie like there's no tomorrow and actually believe himself. If he believe's himself why would a stranger not believe him.

[Chickpea]

OMG- I have been thinking just that- as a matter of fact, I had been seeing my therapist since BD (Jan2012) and told her about this site.  She never responded- she just told me he does what he does because he wants out and was a coward and didn't know how to do it any other way.  He avoids me and doesn't want to communicate because, he doesn't want to give me any false hopes. 
Her therapy with me was basically to GAL without him.  I always felt so hopeless and depressed after I saw her.  She told me that was because, I wasn't ready to face my reality.  She was a kind person but did not believe in MLC.  She left her husband after many years of marriage, is now remarried.  Maybe that is why she doesn't feel MLC is a factor.  I don't know, I'll never know.

[sassy40]

My H is seeing the same therapist we saw as a couple, so he knows the both of us.  I don't think my H was honest about feeling when we saw him together and I really don't believe he's being honest now about what he's really feeling.  I think my H is going to therapy to make himself feel better about his selfish behavior.  He started therapy a couple weeks before BD and told me he didn't discuss wanting to end the marriage with the therapist.  WHAT?!?  How ridiculous is that?

He did tell me that the therapist wasnted to get into all the issues H has with his mother and my H told me he doesn't think he wants to go into that.  Makes me sad.  He will never deal or get help with his issues.

[Thundarr]

I can speak to this somewhat but first I would have to absolutely agree with you that overall there is little to no understanding or acceptance of this.  As a therapist I can not recall ANY of my education or training even mentioning such a thing, but when I first called my advisor soon after BD looking for some kind of direction she seemed to have an understanding of what was going on.  No labels applied to it, but she did tell me things that did not make sense to me at all at the time but are now crystal clear.  One thing in particular is that my W was not my W now and that I should not expect her to act as the same person.  She also strongly encouraged me to pray daily and to do what I would be able to look back on 5 years from now and be proud that I did.  She used the term "fighting for my marriage" which really meant standing.

My parish priest seemed to grasp what was going on and applied a spiritual component to it.  He was the first to use the term "shadow side" and was able to expand on what my W's motivations were (finding her identity, seeking to find value in her life etc).  He had seen and/ or heard of such things before and said at the time that this could go on for years.  He asked me if I would be willing to take her back and said that she would have to pay some type of penance for what she had done.  This was an alien concept to me at the time as I just wanted her to come home one way or another.  His point was that for me to trust and forgive her that she should pay a penance, and even told me that I would have grounds for seeking an annulment if I so chose due to her issues stemming from before we were married.  It was alot to think about and I have pondered the words of both over the past year.  I've been planning on contacting them again and this thread just reminded me of that....

[dwlh]

My freind has a gambling problem and is about to lose her house. She and her H have been seeing a therapist for this. She told me her H and the therapist were openly flirting in front of her. The therapist came up with the thought that my freind doesn't ML to her husband enough. WTH does this have to do with her gambling problem. Honestly makes you wonder how half of these therapists get a licence to practice.

[since_youve_been_gone]

Thanks for your reply DWLH

Yes that sounds familiar actually, and as RCR mentions in one of the scripts that hardly anyone ever sees them be.

You would think that trained depression therapists though should know the classic signs, surely they've seen these situations over and over again.  It's as if they are not allowed to use the words Mid Life Crisis.

My therapist looks at me as though I am making my relationship up!!  When I tell her how idyllic it was (before the dreaded MLC), the look on her face spells out "Yeah Rite - He Just Left You - Same As Everyone Else".  I soon learnt my lesson as from that moment on I felt like I could not open up properley any more!!

I even feel my self wondering "Maybe it was never real".

Think there needs to be a MLC awareness week perhaps!!

SYBG x

[since_youve_been_gone]

Thanks again for your replies everone.

Thundarr that is very interesting. 

Since x

[kikki]

You're pondering what we've all pondered.  How come this is all so unknown and brushed under the carpet.  Where is the support and understanding of all of this.

I figure MLC has been around for a very long time, but the knowledge surrounding it is not in the mainstream. 
Covert depression is not well understood and usually goes undetected. Coupled with the MLCers desire to run, and the public mask they manage to pull on for others, vs the private MLC side they show to the family.  It is not an easy thing to detect.

I think the cover up needs to cease.

[since_youve_been_gone]

Totally agree it needs to cease Kikki

Thanks

Since x

[Dontgiveup]

My thought on the topic.  From what I understand, professionals are trained to diagnose.  MLC is not an official diagnosis.

[OnMyJourney]

My h saw a therapist the day before BD.  The therapist told him he was depressed and having a midlife crisis so some therapists must be recognizing it.

OMJ

[Trustandlove]

The therapist that my H saw said that he only heard the bits he wanted to hear and totally disregarded anything else.  Total refusal to look at himself. 

[fornow]

Hi,

Psychologists are no different to any other mainstream scientists/doctors.  They stick with what they know and with what is written in their DMV manual.  MLC is not a condition found in the DMV manual and so it is not part of their bag of diagnostic tools. It’s that simple - as a person who has spent her life in scientific methodology it takes a very unique scientist to break the mould and think outside the box.  Most scientists/doctors are limited by their training.  But then again aren’t we all limited by our perceptions???

It scientists like Einstein who made wonderful new discoveries because he chose not to stick within the confines of scientific methodologies and beliefs of his time.  Maybe we need an out of the box therapist.

Having said this i also struggle with accepting MLC as a theory - yes my H had a personality change etc, etc, etc but i am beginning to realize that the parts of his personality he is showing now "his shadow" if you will, was there at times - i saw glimpses of it.  Maybe now the MLCer just chooses to express their shadow with more vigor because they are living in fear.

I think at times we are so afraid of what life without H might mean that we hang onto any sign of hope and a therapist that doesn’t give us that hope by believing in MLC just makes us feel so demoralized and disheartened.  I think this is the time when we are most confused and scared and I think the only answers lie within, we need to turn to our inner knowingness, and look for signs of hope from within. 

Therapists do not have all the answers, like us they are limited, they are human.

Take care

[Moving Forward]

I read a fascinating book called 'The Psychopath Test - A Journey Into The Madness Industry' by a journalist called Jon Ronson - it isn't fiction and gives an very interesting glimpse into the world of diagnosis and impact of people with mental health issues.

I am not saying my exH is a psychopath but he has increasingly displayed these behaviours -particularly towards me - but I foudn the book an interesting non MLC read and has helped fit pieces of the jigsaw in place for me!

Loved your last post fornow - succinctly put!

Peace to all today - from a wet and blustery UK!

[Doc Hudson]

I am not saying my exH is a psychopath but he has increasingly displayed these behaviours -particularly towards me

If it walks like a duck and it quacks like a duck...

[Moving Forward]

ha ha ha Doc - I know!!! However I am trying very hard not to 'label' my exH as a Psychopath.....in the book it explains that people can exhibit psychopath like tendencies but it could be a temporary situation!

Time will do it's thing of that I am sure and I'll eventually see whether my analysis is a hit or a miss!

[Trustandlove]

I've had people wonder if my H wasn't bi-polar; I think MLC mimics all sorts of things; brings out all sorts of things that were under control, etc. 

We ALL have less-than-desirable parts of our personalities, it's just that we pretty much automatically keep them under control in life.  In MLC those controls fail, and all the nasty bits come out.

I do think it is temporary, it's just that the 'temporary' can be very, very long. 

I know that in my case my 'real' H really isn't bipolar, nor is he a selfish pig.  But sometimes it's a bit hard to remember that.  We have to remember to think clearly.

[BonBon]

H and I were watching TV the other night and narcissists were mentioned.  He said he thought he knew what that meant in general but wanted to be sure so I googled it and read off the symptoms.
I could see that he was terribly, awfully uncomfortable.  I don't believe he is a true narcissist but certainly, fit the criteria while in heavy replay.  He knew it too.

Therapists can't know every malady like the back of their hand and since MLC has always been just a punchline for most people, I'm sure its just never had the research necessary to show this is a true issue for many people.  Let's hope that changes in the future but certainly there are underlying diagnoseable issues but that's assuming an MLCer will tell the truth to the therapist...if you are in therapy as an LBS, the focus is on you, not the person who is hurting you so that could be another block in the road to recognition. 

[Thundarr]

I don't know if you recall but a few weeks ago I posted some tidbits from a conversation with a doctor I work with.  His belief is that for there to be a diagnosis of something like that you would need to first rule out medical conditions and since the MLCer thinks nothing is wrong then those tests are not likely to ever happen. 

[since_youve_been_gone]

Hi Thundarr

When you put it like that, no they wouldn't.

SYBG

[Mermaid]

The whole idea of MLC has been around for a long time, and since 1965 Jung has been talked about and discussed. It was described as a concept in 1965 by Jaques, and has been in popular fiction ever since (songs, film and pop-psychology). Erikson included MLC in his theory of personality development.

Psychologists are no different to any other mainstream scientists/doctors.  They stick with what they know and with what is written in their DMV manual.  MLC is not a condition found in the DMV manual and so it is not part of their bag of diagnostic tools. It’s that simple - as a person who has spent her life in scientific methodology it takes a very unique scientist to break the mould and think outside the box.  Most scientists/doctors are limited by their training. 

My psychotherapist and psychologist friends  are familiar with Erikson, Jung and others. They have years of clinical experience, and as intelligent, reflective practitioners, and not "trained" but "educated" to look for evidence and solutions. Scientific methodology doesn't mean think inside the box, but looking for supporting evidence, rather than relying on hearsay and folk wisdom.

The problem is that MLC is NOT a single identifiable mental disease. We talk about it as if it is, but it is not. We look for signs and similarities between our spouses, and explain away the differences, but these collections of behaviours are not the same thing at all. There has been research about the verifiability of MLC, and the result is that there isn't enough evidence for it.

There are spouses here whose behaviour suggests personality disorder, or even psychosis. Sometimes this behaviour has been going on for years and reaches a crisis point because of the unstable nature of the disorders. On the other hand, some psychotic behaviour may be triggered by drink/ drugs, neurological disorders, internal or external events, including severe stress.

• There are cases in which the spouse is inherently unstable, despite having outwardly shown stability for some time.
• There are cases in which the spouse has been married for years, others who have only been married for a short time.
• There are cases in which the spouse has apparently been happily married, and then appear to change suddenly, others in which there has been a build up for some time.
• There are cases in which the spouse is young, or old, so the crisis is not about midlife at all.
• There are some in which the spouse is depressed, outwardly or covertly, others who are not.
• There are major differences, in behaviour and in outcome.

This doesn't mean we are imagining anything; as we all know only too well, us LBS face real problems and shocks. It doesn't mean that this website is invalid. It gives us useful tools to defend/ rebuild ourselves, a community of support, and a way of explaining things so they make sense to us. But when we talk about stages, tunnels, liminality, etc, we are using metaphors which help us to navigate our social world.

Of course, there are many ways that a therapist can help an individual deal with this, and individual values come into this. Some would not encourage a LBS to stand for their marriage when it is abusive and counterproductive to individual growth. Mine encouraged me to face the different possible outcomes, and to focus on myself rather than explaining away my H's aberrant behaviour. A pretty wise approach, I think.

At the end of the day, if you are looking for a therapist who will just go along with what you believe, why get a therapist? On the other hand, if you truly don't gel with your therapist and trust them, it's time to get a new therapist.

BTW, we discussed MLC sometime ago, here: http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=191.msg4948#msg4948
Personality disorders here: http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=2209.msg130015#msg130015
An article about one type of crisis: http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=4.msg17890#msg17890

 

[Dontgiveup]

Since my belief is MLC is emotional and developmental, I don't think therapy would be of use until toward the end of the crisis.  MLC is something that must be gone through.  I think RCR's article "A Midlife Metaphor" gives a good synopsis of this.

http://www.midlifecrisismarriageadvocate.com/mlc_overview_midlife-metaphor.html

[Mermaid]

It's the LBS who needs the therapy!!1

[c3po]

As Thundarr mentioned, MLC is not something that is taught in school.  I too have a degree in counseling, and I feel as ill prepared to deal with this as the next person.  Even if MLC were a diagnosable condition, it wouldn't change the nature of it.  Anything that is in the DSM-IV is merely a detailing of collections of common symptoms existing along a continuum of human behavior.  It is a means of understanding maladaptive behaviors.  MLC is just uncharted territory for all of us. 

At the beginning, I did go to a therapist seeking to find some answers.  For me it was a less than helpful experience as I don't think he was a big proponent of the concept of MLC.  Again, MLC is not something he would have studied or necessarily had experience with.  He was nice and supportive, but feel that he was afraid of dumbing things down too much for me since I also work in the profession.  I think I find better support here from others who are going through this journey as well.  We all come from different backgrounds and walks of life, but we all share similar emotions in this regard.  At the end of the day, the job of a therapist isn't to fix us or our MLCers.  Their job is to support us on our journey and help us as we seek the answers we are looking for. 

[Mermaid]

As Thundarr mentioned, MLC is not something that is taught in school.... MLC is just uncharted territory for all of us. 

What evidence do you have that MLC is one thing? Where's the science?

At the end of the day, the job of a therapist isn't to fix us or our MLCers.  Their job is to support us on our journey and help us as we seek the answers we are looking for. 

Absolutely agree. It's a hard job, because sometimes we want something we cannot have, cannot face the situation as it is, or we are asking the wrong questions. I was lucky enough to have a good psychotherapist, but it seems some are not so lucky. She also told me my adaptation to the situation was good, but sometimes I wonder. There are so many emotions that we hide from ourselves, and that come out later. Still, we go on...

[calamity]

Mermaid said, 'What evidence do you have that MLC is one thing? Where's the science?'.  That's what's been bothering me all along. 

My therapist never mentioned mlc or anything else.  She of course focused on me.  She did say, did he [my h] know that he was a train wreck?  That was a huge relief to me, to know that it was obvious that his behaviour was questionable at best.

[honour]

How come therapists do not recognise MLC?

Would it help if they did?
What we should be asking psychologists, psychiatrist and the like is: what is emotional health, what does emotional health look like, how does it behave and how do we achieve it? Then if the behaviour patterns we recognize as MLC do not agree with the "scientists" description of emotional health then the therapists would recognize MLC as an illness or disorder. So we just need a definitive answer from the experts as to what emotional and mental health is. Be prepared to wait.

The mental health experts are very good at coming up with labels for disorders and deciding "what's wrong", the DSM is enormous. But it is all negative. What we need is a Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Health.

I'm no psychologist but when my W left she was definitely manifesting symptoms of LAD...Lying Adultery Disorder.

honour

[Anjae]

How come therapists do not recognise MLC?

Would it help if they did?

Yes, it would. Because then, like with other health conditions, psychiatric or not, social services, GPs, legal system, lawyers, society would be aware of it and mechanisms of support for LBS, when needed, would be put to use. There are support mechanisms for families of alcoholics, drug addicts, people with heart condition, etc. but none to the spouse or family of a MLCer.

[OldPilot]

There are support mechanisms for families of alcoholics, drug addicts, people with heart condition, etc. but none to the spouse or family of a MLCer.

So what do you think we are doing here?

[kikki]

There are support mechanisms for families of alcoholics, drug addicts, people with heart condition, etc. but none to the spouse or family of a MLCer.

So what do you think we are doing here?

OP - globally - this is pretty much the only support that is available. Online. 
I dragged my H along to two psychologists after BD.  They both looked at me blankly, shaking their heads at his behaviour.  They offered zero explanation, and said there was nothing they could do until/unless he wanted help, which he clearly didn't.
He refused the medication and the therapy that they both suggested.
I was left grasping at straws.  It wasn't until many more months had passed that I found this forum and the penny dropped.  I was very angry that so little was known about this. 

Had I gone along to these people, and had one of them said 'this is what is happening.  You might see these behaviours, and experience this for yourself and your children.  Here's some information about the support that is available to you all' - well, what a different experience that would have been.

The second one, after my H did a no show for his second appointment, saw me instead.  When I told her what was going on in more detail, said 'this all sounds very premeditated with the OW.  Where does the crossover occur between mental illness and MLC. 
She then proceeded to talk to me as though my only option was to kick him to the curb, and even encouraged me to get a court order in place where he couldn't see the boys until he sought treatment. 
Needless to say I did neither - but I was so confused for a very long time about what I was dealing with. 
Yes - support systems and knowledge and understanding in the medical, psychiatric and psychological professions would be an enormous help.

Even if they didn't believe in MLC - or hadn't seen it - surely the fact that so many people cease to cope well at midlife, and the volume of MidLife depressions would have been helpful information to have.

[Anjae]

OP, the board does not provide me, or anyone, with financial support throught this ordeal. Nor has any influence upon the judicial system, the social system, the health centre or any real live structure.

The forum is a sounding board for LBS, provides info on MLC , allows us to vent, talk, share our joys and sorrows, but does have any structure to help us cope with practical real life situations. And probably it is not menat to have.

Society does not have structures to help a LBS. If husband was an alchoolic or a drug addict I would have a govenment bureau, expose the case, and they would address me to a social worker, and would put in action several helping measures, including legal counselling and financial support.

Here we are making people aware of MLC and provide them with the help we can but it is not the same as having practical help on the terrain.

My husband knew he was depressed, he refused to be treated. The doctor of the company hw worked for tried to help hsuband, before and after BD. Husband locked himself in his office and did not allow the doctor in. It dis not took husband long to quit is job.

The doctor on is company thought it was major depression but could do nothing because husband would not allow help.

It was only after I returned home I found out what was going on with husband only to realise there was nothing to help in such situation. MLC is not a medical condition, there is nowhere I can go and say: my husband is in MLC. People see this has a man behaving bad but there is nothing that can be done to help me. I'm married to a man who makes tons of money who drags divorce. That's all as far as the law, social services, etc, are concerned.

One can't say it is much of a practical help, can one?

[Mermaid]

I've been continuing to think about all this. MLC seems to be a blanket term to cover a number of behavioural characteristics which may not be connected.

A while back, Thundarr posted a very interesting topic about official views on MLC (see: http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=2507.15) Ideas suggested were that MLC type behaviour (which itself varies enormously) could result from a variety of causes a brain injury/ neurological disorder, changes in brain chemistry, latent PD, depression, delayed PTSD. Of course, there is always the possibility that some people have an age-related panic or full blown crisis.

Actually, my very nice, supportive therapist always assumed that my H was having some age-related crisis, even when he didn't ever mention aging. He mentioned death, but welcomed it, and he was certainly depressed at some points, but he never seemed to worry about getting old. So in my case, my therapist recognised MLC, even though I never thought it was about age. But it was a crisis of some sort.

Revisting events, H had two episodes of TGA (transient global amnesia), one before his "MLC" type behaviour, one just after the beginning. He lost his capability to form new memories for 6-8 hours, and kept repeating the same 5 questions (like, "Where are my keys? Where is D21?") I thought at first he was having a stroke, and called one of his doctor colleagues, who took him straight to hospital for a MRI scan, which showed nothing. He never regained his memories of those lost hours, which was very upsetting for him. During both TGAs he was desparately clingy to me, and didn't want me out of his sight. During MLC he seemed to want to lose his dependence on me, as if his independent identity was threatened. He subsequently discovered that statins are known to cause TGAs, and stopped taking them.

My MIL always thought that his TGAs were the cause of his strange ML behaviour. I always said that his stress (and perfectoinist personality) led to both raised cholesterol levels and burn out syndrome (which includes anhedonia), but that the TGA didn't cause his behaviour. However, statins have inumerous behavioural and phsyical effects, and the long term effects of the TGA caused by statins are unknown. Statins affect short term memory by cutting cholesterol, which in turn cuts the efficiency and formation of synapses, formation of brain cells, and the inegrity of myelin. In other words, long term use of statins can lead to forms of brain damage.

I'm not saying that statins caused my H's MLC, but perhaps they contributed to his confusion, certain loss of memories (thus the rewriting of events), as part of a jigsaw of factors including his personality, lifestyle, and (traumatic) personal history.

Statins don't cause MLC, but medications can be, for some people, another link in the chain leading to a break down in behaviour

The difficulties we face, whatever the causes and effects, are immense, as we all know. Unfortunately, as for many misfortunes, there are not always adequate levels of social support. I know many cases of drug addicts, alcoholics, schizophrenics, etc. where havoc is wreaked on the family. The medical label doesn't protect the families from the consequences of the behaviour of such people. So would a recognised "MLC" label help? Perhaps not. But our understanding of our spouses' behaviours is the most important factor in governing our response.

The strength of this website is that we detach, focus on ourselves and  not on our errant spouse. We can have hope, but need to drop expectations. It helps to realise that those who let go more completely may make a better reconnection. We learn to forgive, and perhaps explaining our spouse's behaviour helps us do that. But essentially we need to lose our dependence on them for our happiness, and be whole in ourselves. This is the wisdom of this forum.

[FindingJoJo]

The strength of this website is that we detach, focus on ourselves and  not on our errant spouse. We can have hope, but need to drop expectations. It helps to realise that those who let go more completely may make a better reconnection. We learn to forgive, and perhaps explaining our spouse's behaviour helps us do that. But essentially we need to lose our dependence on them for our happiness, and be whole in ourselves. This is the wisdom of this forum.

It is a blessing that this is here - my counselor told me I needed information so I started researching what could have caused this and then I found this place.  For a month I was completely lost, fighting the NC thing and didn't find any semblence of peace until I actually did NC.  I wonder at times if I am just fighting the inevitable and maybe he wasn't happy with me, but then someone shares and it is as if my H is reading from a script.  I knew we were working on things due to him asking and up until the day he left I always heard I love you, we were intimate regularly so it was a shock to me to learn all that he had been telling his family up north for several months, he certainly wasn't acting that way when we were together.  I would be lost without this place and God and give my thanks daily for helping me to understand and to learn to be patient.

[RivenIN2]

I guess for me knowing that MLC were a recognized condition would help to point others close to me to resources that could better explain it to them. They would also not think we are the crazy ones if we could point to it in a medical journal and say that is what my spouse is suffering from. I know wishful thinking. lol

[calamity]

Mermaid said,
The strength of this website is that we detach, focus on ourselves and  not on our errant spouse. We can have hope, but need to drop expectations. It helps to realise that those who let go more completely may make a better reconnection. We learn to forgive, and perhaps explaining our spouse's behaviour helps us do that. But essentially we need to lose our dependence on them for our happiness, and be whole in ourselves. This is the wisdom of this forum.

Exactly.  Explaining my husband's behaviour helps me to both forgive & detach.  He has something that is caused by something--but he is not himself.  If he gets himself back, he will come home.  Yes I hope; having no expectations is more difficult. 

On the bright side, I am independant.  You can't survive this long [7 months he's been gone] without being independant so even when we [lbs's] think we are still half a couple, we are in fact surviving alone.

[Niek]

Interesting topic. I am just reading the book Breaking the habit of being yourself in which Dr. Joe Dispenza explains the functioning of the brain. On page 192 he describes what happen to a person when his brain is in sustained high beta (brain waves). He doesn't mention the word, but what he describes here is MLC.

[Mermaid]

Interesting topic. I am just reading the book Breaking the habit of being yourself in which Dr. Joe Dispenza explains the functioning of the brain. On page 192 he describes what happen to a person when his brain is in sustained high beta (brain waves). He doesn't mention the word, but what he describes here is MLC.

Can you tell us more? Sounds interesting. How do people get sustained high beta waves?

[Gutted]

The Therapist I went to made me feel like crap when I needed something, anything, to make me feel better - even if it was believing a lie.

At that time, I needed someone to tell me he's gone insane and the ugliness and 24/7 blatant lies while he looked into my eyes wasn't 'him'.  BUT my therapist only said things like "OMG, how terrible of him", "this man has no care for you at all and I don't know why", "he's clearly a narcissist"  "a sociopath"  "a psychopath".   

As it is, my husband carpet bombed our whole relationship including when it started.  Repeatedly.  I was decimated with knowing 20 years of my life have been spent with someone that didn't care about me ever, and not only wasn't a 'husband' who never had my back.  Not only not even a friend, but that he didn't care about me as a human being on even a base level. 

My therapist felt this way and sure did voice it.  This was the 'last' thing I needed to be told when I already had those fears and was clinically depressed to the point of barely functioning.   

Then she's saying 'what type of job would you like to do.  Retail?"  Excuse me?  Like?  Work in a department store?!  Do I look like I can even figure out what to eat for dinner let alone contemplate working again after over a decade not, then for bonus points...  she presents me with a low-level job that I'd be so miserable doing I'd rather die?

The focus by 3rd visit morphed to 'me' and how I planned to live my life alone whereas I could only think/focus on what was currently happening which was 'him' and his treatment/abandonment.   All the while peppered with "oh that's so terrible of him".   
(oh and I love the fact that if you don't go every WEEK, they yell at you for not coming 'routinely').   

I felt utterly MORE miserable after every session that I decided just being miserable at the dog park a much better form of misery.
Really?  Can't we just 'pretend' he wasn't a narcissistic psychopath since the day I met him?  Can't we just 'pretend' it was real and I didn't throw away 20 years of the best years of my life and not having children because I married him for a reason that doesn't haunt me each day for the rest of my life?

Sadly, though....  I believe she was right.

REALLY I wish those of us that found decent therapists would share who they are.  I wish we had a resource section?   As it is, I'm in need of therapy and am at the level of throwing a dart at the phone book to pick one.  So I delay choosing.     IDK what to do.

[Niek]

Ha ha ha, I'll try. There are several kinds of brain waves. Alpha, Beta, Delta etc. The beta waves govern our waking hours and there are 3 levels: low beta (when you are relaxed), mid beta (when you are focused) and high beta. High beta occurs during stressful situations when the body produces survival chemicals (fight or flight). High beta is a short term survival mechanism but a long term source of stress and imbalance. It causes physiological arousal of o.a. the nervous system which leads to change in the psychological states which alters ones perception, behaviors, attitudes and emotions. It makes that the brain no longer communicates in an organized way. The stress chemicals are responsible for the fact that the thinking part of the brain becomes more segregated and therefor someone in a situation like that may function like someone with a multiple personality disorder. Feelings like anxiety, anger, frustration and fear induce high beta waves to predominate during a crisis like this.

Furthermore: high beta makes it difficult to focus on our inner self.  Someone in high beta has his focus on his environment so in fact they become very selfish. They focus not only on material stuff but also they criticize the people they know and they are preoccupied with their bodies and preoccupied with time. The are constantly on the run. For people in high beta it is almost impossible to learn new things: new information that is not equal to the emotions they are experiencing cannot enter their nervous system. They reason poorly and thinking is without clarity because their brain is in the survival mode and therefore the brain makes survival a priority and not learning new things.

Sounds familiar doesn't it?

About the survival mode. I am pretty sure that people in MLC run away from their childhood issues. So when that aspect of their lives is being triggered in some way, that is when the whole brain system starts to prepare for this horrible journey.

[kikki]

Niek, that is so interesting.  Does it explain how the brain gets out of this beta wave?  Or that it can get stuck here?

[Stillpraying]

I see Kikki's beat me to it (why are you still up this late Kikki???) and I was going to say exactly the same:
This is very interesting Niek.

Is this why so many go into crisis after the death of some one close?  My H went right into reply very soon after his dad passed away.  He's since stated he hates his father for never affirming him.

SP

[honour]

So when that aspect of their lives is being triggered in some way, that is when the whole brain system starts to prepare for this horrible journey.

Very interesting Niek. I wonder if the triggering could be caused by hormones. I saw Monster in my W when she was a teenager, when she came off the birth control pill in her twenties and at menopause. Menopause and BD went almost hand in hand. Hormones are on the move in each of those phases.

honour

[kikki]

I see Kikki's beat me to it (why are you still up this late Kikki???) and I was going to say exactly the same:
This is very interesting Niek.

Hi SP The smoke alarm battery died, and woke me up with the beeping - so thought I'd have a quick forum update 

[Stillpraying]

Right, well back to bed now Kikki  Oh, I should head off too. (after my milo)
By the way, happy belated Birthday.  Saw on your threead that I missed it.  Hope it was a great day.

[Mermaid]

We're developing two distinct themes here. One is about the causes and nature of MLC, and the other is about (mis)treatment by therapists.

I'll start with the first theme. I must admit I didn't know anything about alpha/ beta/ delta waves, but from what Niek says, high beta waves are caused by stress, but lead to long term imbalance. This gives us further insight on how stress leads to a form of breakdown called burnout, whose symptoms include tiredness, sickness, a sense of failure and self-doubt, detachment, isolation, and a loss of feelings (anhedonia). See http://www.imfmetal.org/files/stress_english.pdf, or http://www.helpguide.org/mental/burnout_signs_symptoms.htm#warning
There are a number of people on this forums who regarded their spouses as workaholics, or highly stressed for long periods, who may have got to the point of burnout. In some cases, the need to work so hard/ a perfectionist drive comes from some much deeper rooted issues in childhood. Perfectionist workaholics feel valued by what they do, not who they are.

However, this only accounts for some of the spouses, not all of them.

There are some who, sadly, my reveal their "true" nature with time, being unable to keep up the mask of respectability any longer. There are genetic and social basis to character, but although some people may have an idea of what is expected of them socially, it takes too much energy to maintain this mask. This may be the case for those who have personality disorders or unresolved issues. Again, this accounts for some of the spouses, not all of them.

I say "true" in inverted commas because research in psychopathology/ neurology indicates that there isn't one true self stable over a life time. The self as we know it is the result of interaction between different areas of the brain. If one area is affected (by lesions, toxins, tumours, illness, hormones etc.) the "self" changes. Our behaviour can change according to what we eat, drink, medications, exercise, as well as thoughts and expectations.

I appreciate that this is a simplified explanation of human behaviour, but I wanted to emphasise that what we call MLC is actually a variety of behaviours with multiple causes. This is important, because some spouses will not return to their previous behaviour, which they were unable to maintain. There have been LBS here who recognise this, and accept that they should not wait. Others are at the beginning of a decline (there are cases of dementia), others show clear signs of developing psychotic behaviours (some of which are treatable, but nothing can be treated against their will). Other are going through trauma (stress), the results of medications, alcohol, or other illness. There are some (not all) who have some deep emotional issues to resolve.

None of this is easy for us. I would suggest that each of us, as much as possible, tries to step back and analyse their own situation as coolly as possible. We all need to protect ourselves, financially, physically and emotionally as much as we can. Most of us go through deep shock. Personally, I find that an intellectual approach calms me, although we are all different. Once we have understood the type of crisis we are facing, we can take our decisions: detach, set firm boundaries and wait, or move on with our lives.

The second issue is about therapists. I was lucky in that my therapist was truly supportive and helped me to reflect on what was going on, but I don't think she always knew what was happening to my H. Her support was for me. I was also lucky to get this as part of the supporting structures of my employer, although this means that if I hadn't clicked with the therapist, I may not have been able to pay for an alternative.

Therapists don't own our lives, cannot tell us what to do or what to think. They are there to support us, although they sometimes have the difficult job of getting us to face and accept something that we don't want to see. At one point, my therapist thought she may have to counsel me to accept my separation from H, and she often warned me not to set my expectations too high. I was also depressed, and on antidepressants, but I just about managed to function. Putting on my own mask for my students and some friends forced me to do this. I was also lucky to have a wide supportive network of friends and family, much more so than my H.

It's important to click with the therapist, but also important to realise that their job is not just to make us feel better (they can't). None of them can solve our problems, only we can do that, but they should be able to help us reflect on our situations without imposing their own agenda. There are different schools of therapy, some who are more directive than others. If you don't gel with your therapist, you need to find one you can trust. That's fundamental!!!

[Niek]

No unfortunately the book doesn't explain how to get out of high beta on a natural way. Only by meditation. The book  explains  how our brain has been formed since childhood and why we in fact live in the past and therefore repeat the same things over and over again. To break that pattern you have to change your internal environment (how you feel and think) and then your external environment will alter. It is something like 'The Secret', but this book is written by a scientist.

The title of the book is: Breaking the habit of being yourself; how to loose your mind and create a new one. Dispenza says that by meditation, going into the subconscious mind, you will be able to rewire your brain and create the reality that you want.

It is a really interesting book and provides you with the tools necessary to make major changes in your life.

@Honor. Yes I think female MLC had a lot to do with hormones. I have heard already several times women went into MLC after a hormone treatment. But I am sure that this only happen to people with an unresolved trauma from childhood.

@SP. I think most of the time the crisis is triggered by the death of someone close.

About therapist not knowing about MLC, I think it is because we call it MLC. But MLC for most people is a guy buying a Porsche or something like that (my H did by the way LOL) and runs away with a much younger woman. I have read a book in which people who were brought up by parents with a war trauma were interviewed about their childhood. Someone recommended me this book cause my H's parents both has WWII trauma. Due to a trauma like this the parents gets narcissistic treats and their children become pleasers in order to receive the love the will never get from their parents. Anyway, besides the interviews with these people, there were some interviews with therapists as well. One said that it a common knowledge that if you have childhood issues you will always find a safe partner. One that will not touch the trauma. Later in life when the trauma is triggered by something, you unconsciously will find somebody else to fight and overcome your childhood trauma. This OP usually has treats identical to the parent who caused your trauma.

[Mermaid]

I immediatley looked up

Breaking the habit of being yourself; how to loose your mind and create a new one. Dispenza says that by meditation, going into the subconscious mind, you will be able to rewire your brain and create the reality that you want.

The book looks really interesting, despite some criticisms of speculation mixed with the science. However, while I was browsing, I came across the following by Chris Walton:
Gamma Healing: Eliminate Subconscious Limiting Beliefs, Anxiety Fear and Doubt in Less Than 5 Minutes

Has anyone read it?

[honour]

@Honor. Yes I think female MLC had a lot to do with hormones. I have heard already several times women went into MLC after a hormone treatment. But I am sure that this only happen to people with an unresolved trauma from childhood.

XW can tick the unresolved trauma from childhood box too.

Dispenza says that by meditation, going into the subconscious mind, you will be able to rewire your brain and create the reality that you want.

Haven't hypnotists and hypnotherapists been saying similar for as long as they have been around?

honour

[Niek]

No, never read it. In less than 5 minutes?

[Niek]

@Honor. I don't know, never consulted a hypnotherapist. But this book is really very interesting. It explains how our brain and body works and to break free of our emotions.

[Ready2Transform]

I haven't read that book, BUT the brain entrainment audio my H and I used/produced utilized "brain wave technology", ie audio waves and subliminal messaging underneath other ambient, affirmations, or musical noise.  There's some good commercially available stuff, but when we made our own and I used the waves that are the "deepest levels" was when we really started having intense experiences with it that were meant to go into our subconscious and 'fix' things.  We thought it would just give us confidence.  I'm not convinced it didn't work...I just don't think I realized the role it would play in turning a lock that needed to be turned.

[honour]

No, never read it. In less than 5 minutes?

The title of hypnotist Paul McKenna's book "Instant Confidence" implies that 5 minutes would be dragging the process of self transformation out a bit.

@Honor. I don't know, never consulted a hypnotherapist. But this book is really very interesting. It explains how our brain and body works and to break free of our emotions.

I'm sure it is very interesting, thank you for recommending it. I'm not disagreeing with you. I'm of the same view. I'm just pointing that these ideas have been around for a long time but few of us take the time and effort to put the theory in to practise. It's so easy to be swept along with the staus quo.
I'm sure I've read somewhere that brain scans of buddhists practising compassion meditation have shown physical changes to the amygdala. Through meditation buddhists claim a state of Nirvana (the state beyond sorrows) is possible.
Paul of Tarsus wrote "be transformed by the renewing of your mind." and "whatsoever things are true, honest, just, pure, lovely, of good report, if there be any virtue and if there be any praise, think on these things...and the God of peace will be with you.
Three thousand years ago the South American Toltecs taught that a "New Dream" a "state of bliss" is possible, achieved by changing the way we think; the words we speak.
Jung believed it possible to be free of all neurosis.
Benjamin Franklin had his Thirteen Subjects to which he believed he owed all his success and happiness.
Step 11 of the twelve Step Program "Sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with God as we understood God, praying only for knowledge of God's will for us and the power to carry that out."

These ideas have been around in various forms for a long time, but what do we do in the 21st century? We switch on the tv and receive a near constant stream garbage. Just look at the viewing figures for the rubbishy soap operas with all their less than ideal story lines. Look at the amount of pornography that is consumed in the USA alone; it's a massive industry. All the nonsense pumped out by the advertising and fashion industries persuading us if we don't have this or that we are inadequate. The vast quantities of "Jackie Collins" style "romantic" novels. Not to mention the vast quantities of illegal drugs consumed.
 
Is it doing us any good? Your computer geeks could be forgiven for calling it Garbage In, Garbage Out.

It often takes a crisis or trauma to shake us up a bit and make us take stock and make some changes for the better. Our spouses's MLC could be one of the best things that ever happened to us.

If it can be done in 5 minutes there would be no one more pleased than me.

honour

[kikki]

Thanks for the Birthday Wishes SP 
What an interesting thread. 
That book definitely looks like a good read Niek.  No, I haven't read the other one either. 

There are a number of people on this forums who regarded their spouses as workaholics, or highly stressed for long periods, who may have got to the point of burnout. In some cases, the need to work so hard/ a perfectionist drive comes from some much deeper rooted issues in childhood. Perfectionist workaholics feel valued by what they do, not who they are.

Mermaid, this is 100% my H, although I think there are also childhood issues to deal with too. 
Do you mean that the burnout MLCers may come through this, whereas some of the others may not?
My H is still completely obsessed with work, although no longer has ANY other responsibilities, so maybe he is getting more let up than when he was at home?

Like the sound of the 'instant' change - wouldn't that be like waving a magic wand?

[trusting]

There are a number of people on this forums who regarded their spouses as workaholics, or highly stressed for long periods, who may have got to the point of burnout. In some cases, the need to work so hard/ a perfectionist drive comes from some much deeper rooted issues in childhood. Perfectionist workaholics feel valued by what they do, not who they are.

That also describes my husband to a T.  It has gotten much worse with MLC.  I do believe it is rooted in his childhood, that he did not get the validation he felt he needed and now is "proving" himself. 

[Dontgiveup]

There are a number of people on this forums who regarded their spouses as workaholics, or highly stressed for long periods, who may have got to the point of burnout. In some cases, the need to work so hard/ a perfectionist drive comes from some much deeper rooted issues in childhood. Perfectionist workaholics feel valued by what they do, not who they are.

I believe this also.  It's part of the identity crisis that is MLC and has the deeper rooted issues indicated.

However, this only accounts for some of the spouses, not all of them.

This may be because the need to work and/or be a perfectionist are symptoms.  MLC has many common symptoms, but there can be some variance.

I say "true" in inverted commas because research in psychopathology/ neurology indicates that there isn't one true self stable over a life time. The self as we know it is the result of interaction between different areas of the brain. If one area is affected (by lesions, toxins, tumours, illness, hormones etc.) the "self" changes. Our behaviour can change according to what we eat, drink, medications, exercise, as well as thoughts and expectations.

I think we continue to mature and develop over time......Erickson life stage development (or lack thereof for MLCers).

I appreciate that this is a simplified explanation of human behaviour, but I wanted to emphasise that what we call MLC is actually a variety of behaviours with multiple causes.

I agree that MLC has a variety of behaviors.....I believe these fall under the symptomology of MLC....though there is a lot of consistency with that as well.  We know this because of all the commonalities of stories on Heros Spouse.

I do not believe that MLC has mulitple causes, but I understand that some do believe that.  In my opinion, the multiple symptoms make it seem like there may be multiple causes.  I think the cause of MLC is developmental.....unresolved issues.

This is important, because some spouses will not return to their previous behaviour, which they were unable to maintain.

Below is from RCR's article Stories and Human Behavior.  It is something that both RCR and Jim Conway say in their materials.

An MLCer may become stuck, but those are the rare cases.

Others are at the beginning of a decline (there are cases of dementia), others show clear signs of developing psychotic behaviours (some of which are treatable, but nothing can be treated against their will). Other are going through trauma (stress), the results of medications, alcohol, or other illness. There are some (not all) who have some deep emotional issues to resolve.

I believe medical and psychiatric diagnosis and separate issues from MLC.  I believe MLC is emotional/developmental.

Personally, I find that an intellectual approach calms me, although we are all different. Once we have understood the type of crisis we are facing, we can take our decisions: detach, set firm boundaries and wait, or move on with our lives.

I think this is good input.  From RCR's article on Acceptance.

Acceptance in its intellectual form is about recognizing the process. For many this includes self-education about MLC, its root causes and recent triggers and thus recognizing that regardless of your flaws and indiscretions, his MLC is not your fault. If the fault is not yours, neither is the solution.

[Mermaid]

There are a number of people on this forums who regarded their spouses as workaholics, or highly stressed for long periods, who may have got to the point of burnout. In some cases, the need to work so hard/ a perfectionist drive comes from some much deeper rooted issues in childhood. Perfectionist workaholics feel valued by what they do, not who they are.

Mermaid, this is 100% my H, although I think there are also childhood issues to deal with too. 
Do you mean that the burnout MLCers may come through this, whereas some of the others may not?

Yes. Some are in a temporary situation that gets resolved. Others are not. I've seen some evidence of this on the forum so far. There are a few cases of deep PD that may not be easy to resolve.

My H is still completely obsessed with work, although no longer has ANY other responsibilities, so maybe he is getting more let up than when he was at home?

May be that lets him escape the pressures he feels. My H did the same thing, finding an escape valve from his perceived pressures. But then he missed his family, and came home. They have to get to that point.

[kikki]

Thanks Mermaid.  My H said a couple of months ago, that he misses the boys more and more as time goes on.  He seemed surprised by this.

I just raised my eyebrows, and said, of course you miss them more and more. 

He is still cycling rapidly, so time will tell if he ever wants to and manages to grow t*sticles the size of texas, and ask to come home, as one person put it. 

[Mermaid]

This may be because the need to work and/or be a perfectionist are symptoms.  MLC has many common symptoms, but there can be some variance.

Perfectionism isn't a symptom of MLC. It's a personality trait.

research in psychopathology/ neurology indicates that there isn't one true self stable over a life time. The self as we know it is the result of interaction between different areas of the brain. If one area is affected (by lesions, toxins, tumours, illness, hormones etc.) the "self" changes. Our behaviour can change according to what we eat, drink, medications, exercise, as well as thoughts and expectations.

 

I think we continue to mature and develop over time......Erickson life stage development (or lack thereof for MLCers).

This has nothing to do with Erikson, which is to do with maturity. It's to do with neuropsychology. As "the self"is not located in any one brain region, the changes in the functioning of a region can change the sense of self. There are many famous cases, starting with Phineas Gage, who changed completely and permenantly after a head injury. See, for example, work by world reknowned neuroscientist António Damasio, neurologist Oliver Sacks (very accessible), philosopher Daniel Dennett.

I do not believe that MLC has mulitple causes, but I understand that some do believe that.  In my opinion, the multiple symptoms make it seem like there may be multiple causes.  I think the cause of MLC is developmental.....unresolved issues.

If this is a question of belief, there's no point discussing science.

My point is that evidence, even from this board, suggests that MLC is not ONE thing. This is why therapists don't treat it as ONE thing. MLC is a populist term, with little  basis in science. Not all MLC behaviours are a result of unresolved issues. There are cases here of psychotic behaviour, which frankly needs psychiatric care, others of sociopathic behaviour which pre-dates the crisis, others of forms of dementia and depression.  Yes, there are some unresolved issues too, and some cases where the spouse is evidently immature.

An MLCer may become stuck, but those are the rare cases.

How do you know? Not even RCR would quantify this!!! And as a statistic, it may cause us to cling to expectations. I understand how desparate we all become, looking for hope, looking for reasons to believe. This site is an oasis of hope in a dessert of cycnism, and so it should remain. But hope is not expectation, and they so easily become confused. Hope is eternal, gives us life. Expectations keep us stuck, stop us from that important focus on ourselves, and our wholeness.

I believe medical and psychiatric diagnosis and separate issues from MLC.  I believe MLC is emotional/developmental.

Everyone is entitled to their beliefs. Beliefs have no discussion, because they are just that. They are very important to each and every one of us. But I'm trying to introduce a little science here, which is based on empirically testing a hypothesis, a systematic search for evidence.

I'm pushing my scientific approach as a way of detaching ourselves from events, depersonalising them. It's not only that the process of intellectualising calms the emotions. It's also that it helps to  understand that their are a range of psychiatric, neurological, chemical, genetic, and emotional reasons for our spouses' behaviour. Personally, it makes me feel a little less hurt, a little less angry. I hope it may help others, too.

[Mermaid]

Thanks Mermaid.  My H said a couple of months ago, that he misses the boys more and more as time goes on.  He seemed surprised by this.

I just raised my eyebrows, and said, of course you miss them more and more. 

He is still cycling rapidly, so time will tell if he ever wants to and manages to grow t*sticles the size of texas, and ask to come home, as one person put it.

Hope,  no expectations. 

BTW, your time line is similar to mine. I've been married now 24 years, BD1 Jan 2009, although no PA, and he only moved out for short periods. I think if his EA had gone physical, it would have resolved itself more clearly, but taken longer. It takes 2-3 years for an infatuation to burn itself out. My H has been home for a year, but not everything was resolved when he came home.

[kikki]

Thanks Mermaid  More patience required

[Anjae]

It's not only that the process of intellectualising calms the emotions. It's also that it helps to  understand that their are a range of psychiatric, neurological, chemical, genetic, and emotional reasons for our spouses' behaviour. Personally, it makes me feel a little less hurt, a little less angry. I hope it may help others, too.

This approach works for me. Mine was totally overwhelmed with work, both from his steady job and our joint projects. We have been discussing changing to a more slow paced life.

Since a few months before h left he keep getting more and more busy and now has 3 jobs plus all his clubbing. He has told me several times he cannot afford to stop. Otherwise he will start thinking about all he had done. Also, when he tries to slow down he feel ill and tired, so he keeps doing more and more and more.

But I think a point comes, after they have already messed up a lot, when they really just want to keep running from all the confusion they created.

Odd how my already burned out one does not totally burnout and crash...

[kikki]

Personally, it makes me feel a little less hurt, a little less angry. I hope it may help others, too.

This approach helps me not to take it all quite so personally.  I need to make some sense of the nonsense. 
It frustrates the heck out of me, how little is known about all of this. This is not new - just perhaps more prevalent now. 

Exactly AnneJ - Odd how my already burned out one does not totally burnout and crash... How do they keep on and on and on

[Anjae]

Exactly AnneJ - Odd how my already burned out one does not totally burnout and crash... How do they keep on and on and on

Think the answer is : adrenaline. The oldest of my brothers explained me that, when you are running on adrenaline, the adrenaline rush overrides everything else. You don’t feel pain, you don’t feel tired (or you don’t realise you feel), you’re on a perpetual state of high. Hence the MLCers feeling terrible if they stop. If they stop no more adrenaline rush, no more fell “well”, high and full of energy.

However the perpetual high of adrenaline comes with a price, at a point you will start to look terrible. Add to this the rest of the inbalance brain chemicals and MLCers is living with…

My cousin, the one who’ve had a mild MLC confirmed that he had lived on adrenaline for ten years. Then, it no longer worked. He keep trying but all he felt was cranky, loosing touch, feeling left out. It progressed to become more and more and more dark for him, until, about an year ago he hit rock bottom. He has been on the road to recovery since. But my cousin never left or caused half of the destruction most of our MLCers do.

He manages to recognise some of my husband’s behaviours and says either my husband manages to end his Replay within a year or my husband’s heart/brain/body may no longer take it and serious health issues can come up.

[calamity]

This is not quite on topic but I can't find where it belongs.  Came across it looking for something else.  Note, not about mlc but...


Depression in Mid-Life Linked to Higher Odds for Later Dementia
by -- Robert Preidt
Updated: May 7th 2012
MONDAY, May 7 (HealthDay News) -- People who suffer depression when they're middle-aged or elderly may also have an higher risk of dementia later, a new study suggests.
Researchers evaluated long-term data from more than 13,000 people in California. They found that depressive symptoms occurred in about 14 percent of participants in midlife only, while about 9.2 percent of cases of depression developed in late life only. Just over 4 percent of people in the study had depression that stretched over midlife and late life.
Over six years of follow-up, 22.5 percent of the participants were diagnosed with dementia. The study found that 5.5 percent of the participants developed Alzheimer's disease and 2.3 percent developed vascular dementia, which is caused by brain damage resulting from impaired blood flow to the brain.
According to the research team, people with late-life depression were twice as likely to get Alzheimer's disease and those with both midlife and late-life depression had a more than threefold increased risk of vascular dementia.
The research team was led by Deborah Barnes, of the University of California, San Francisco, and the San Francisco Veterans Affairs Medical Center. Writing in the May issue of the Archives of General Psychiatry, they say the findings suggest that depression extending throughout the lifespan might raise odds for dementia, especially vascular dementia. In many cases, depression occurring for the first time in late life may reflect an early stage of dementia, especially in the case of Alzheimer's disease.
The study was only able to find an association between depression and Alzheimer's risk; it could not prove cause-and-effect.
More than 5 million people in the United States have Alzheimer's disease and the health care costs of the condition were about $172 billion in 2010, according to background information in the study.
"Prevalence and costs of Alzheimer's disease and other dementias are projected to rise dramatically during the next 40 years unless a prevention or a cure can be found. Therefore, it is critical to gain a greater understanding of the key risk factors and etiologic [causal] underpinnings of dementia," the researchers wrote.
More information
The U.S. National Institute of Neurological Disorders and Stroke has more about dementia.
This article: Copyright © 2012 HealthDay. All rights reserved.

[kikki]

Wow Calamity - that's sobering, but makes sense. 
As we know, depression causes major blood flow reduction to the prefrontal cortex in particular. 

[fornow]

Hello All,

The thing about evidence, in terms of the scientific and medical community, is that we try to make the gathering and analysis of evidence as objective as possible through scientific methodology.  But the thing is you cannot remove the observer from the observed.  Different interpretations are made of the evidence.  It happens in simple things, for example many years ago scientific evidence held that eggs lead to high cholesterol and that we should not eat more that 3 eggs a week.  Today the evidence points to the fact that eggs are rich in omega three which lowers cholesterol and now eating eggs every day is a good thing.  So if scientific evidence can change in a material way, imagine the possibilities that exist with trying to find evidence for the workings of the human mind.

This is why we have therapists who are proponents of the MLC, like Jung and Jed Diamond, and then you have others who do not agree with the interpretation of the evidence as a MLC/depression.  Some therapists think MLC should be entered into the DMV and others do not.  At the end of the day one has to find their own truth and science/therapists are not always going to provide the answers, especially when we are dealing with something as abstract as the workings of the human mind. 

There is a rule that I keep being reminded of as I study the concepts of quantum physics/consciousness.  The 90/10 rule.  90% is perception and projection and 10% is the truth.  This is just as true for science as for anyone else.  Every single one of us carry a different perception of life, it’s no wonder that we all, including scientists, get caught in the 90%.  I certainly do not know what the truth is, including whether H is a MLCer suffering depression or just a self-indulgent narcissist.  All I know is that I need to work on myself and find my peace and  joy again  -  and my wish for all of you is that you overcome this horrible hardship and that you find  that elusive happy place once again, with or without your MLCer.

Take care

[Mermaid]

you cannot remove the observer from the observed.  Different interpretations are made of the evidence. 

Well expressed. You are absolutely right, of course. It's not only in social sciences, but also quantum mechanics (as you know) that observers affect both the data and it's interpretation. (In SS, for example, the profile of an interviewer will affect the answers given by an interviewee) It's not only the you cannot separate the observer from the observed (although we have methods to try to overcome this), but the very questions we ask are loaded with value judgements.

On the other hand, there is a big difference between using scientific methods, however flawed, and cultural narratives (A system by which people organise their knowledge about the social world), which are non-systematic ways of making sense of life.

This is why we have therapists who are proponents of the MLC, like Jung and Jed Diamond, and then you have others who do not agree with the interpretation of the evidence as a MLC/depression. 

The difference between Jung, Jed Diamond, and non MLC therapists is not just a question of the observer effect. Jung had a totally different historical context to Diamond, and his methods were at least partly intuitive, drawing influence from a wide variety of theologies and philosophies, but not neccessarily systematic clinical analysis. Jed Diamond has a completely different background,   and shows (at least some) research supporting that the reason for irritable male syndrome is hormonal. (There is reserach to show that actually hormal decline is slow, constant from age 21, and only presents major decline in a small percentage of the population). Esentially Diamond's books are pop-psychology, have made him a fortune (an important observer effect is motivation and values), and are not at all in the same category as Jung.

There are certainly people who have psychological crises. My H almost certainly had one, and it wasn't his first either (he had one at age 21, and another at age 29, too). This was confirmed by a number of observers, some who had no idea of what he was going through, but noticed that he didn't seem himself, seemed lost, as well as by H himself (although he prefers to forget now). But that doesn't make it about midlife. Yes, he had traumas from his youth which shaped his personality (so did I, although I had a very safe and stable childhood compared to his; don't we all?).

My contention is whether MLC is really a useful category. Yes, it's useful for us, because we can pack up a range of behaviours and put them in a box, and it gives us some feeling of control, of knowing something about the unknowable, by labelling our spouse to be in a tunnel, and so on. I found it useful (emotionally) even while (increasingly) question its existence (rationally). 

Yes, there are some traumas relating to aging, and Jung, Erikson and other psycho-social therories of personality development are useful for that. But many are not. My H's was not about hormones, or aging (despite my therapist wanting to put him in that box), it was more complex; it was about life (which had been unstable since was very young, with major emotional shocks), about stress (relating to external and internal pressures, his personality type and interaction with life events) and about chemicals too (statins have strong effects on behaviour, and almost certainly triggered his TGAs). Here on this site, there are some spouses who are extremely emotionally immature, some who are clearly psychotic, some with substance dependency problems, others who have different types of PD.

It seems to me that MLC is just too broad a category to be therapeutically useful. It would be better to break it down into sub-categories both for the person in crisis and for the people who suffer as a result of it. How can a therapist equally deal with an addict, a psychotic, a narcissist and someone in the throes of an identity crisis, or equally deal with their LBS?

  All I know is that I need to work on myself and find my peace and  joy again  -  and my wish for all of you is that you overcome this horrible hardship and that you find  that elusive happy place once again, with or without your MLCer.

This is our reality, no matter what label we put on our errant spouse. A hard path, yet one which has been trodden by those who go before us, as well as those by our sides. Handling our expectations, our incertainties, and our heartbreak is made so much better in the company of the wise and experienced on this site.

[calamity]

Nothing to disagree with here.  I think that we, lbs's are trying to explain the inexplicable: a major personality change in your spouse is difficult to accept.

I am holding on to the theory that,
1. if he doesn't want me, he's crazy.  &
2. we are not crazy they are.

Just kidding.  Kinda.
cj

[Mermaid]

Nothing to disagree with here.  I think that we, lbs's are trying to explain the inexplicable: a major personality change in your spouse is difficult to accept.

I am holding on to the theory that,
1. if he doesn't want me, he's crazy.  &
2. we are not crazy they are.

Just kidding.  Kinda.
cj

Wish we had like buttons 

[kikki]

Nothing to disagree with here.  I think that we, lbs's are trying to explain the inexplicable: a major personality change in your spouse is difficult to accept.

I am holding on to the theory that,
1. if he doesn't want me, he's crazy.  &
2. we are not crazy they are.

Just kidding.  Kinda.
cj

Wish we had like buttons 

Me too 

[FindingJoJo]

Wish we had like buttons 

me too!

[kikki]

I saw a new therapist yesterday.  He went straight to dissociative disorders for my H.

The recent therapist that we saw together thought attachment disorder was one of the major difficulties.
This one has a different theory.  From the little I have read about it, it does make sense.  But then again, so many different parts of different theories do.  It is confusing! 

http://www.strangerinthemirror.com/dissociative.html

http://www.isst-d.org/education/faq-dissociation.htm

Okay - less confusing.  I found this below, describing a possible linke between lack of early attachment and dissociation.


Even people who don't have a trauma history, one that is filled with physical or sexual abuse, can develop a dissociative disorder. The origins of this are speculative, and at the same time there is a very strong and sophisticated literature in the field of infant attachment studies that points clearly to a pattern of attachment called Type D attachment as predicting adult dissociation. Additional work by Karlen Lyons-Ruth shows that adult dissociation is best predicted by the "hidden trauma" of emotional abuse vs. physical/sexual abuse in a ratio of 2:1. There is a lot of evidence that people can develop complex dissociative disorders from what has recently been called developmental trauma.

Some people are frightened of the word dissociative. They believe that if someone has a dissociative disorder that means that a person must have a severe trauma history. Sometimes that’s true, and sometimes that is not true. A person can develop a dissociative disorder just from life’s circumstances. Some studies have suggested that growing up in a family where a parent is frightened, frightening, or severely grieving/depressed during a child’s first years may be enough to generate the organization of mind that relies more heavily on dissociative adaptations to get through the day.

[Ready2Transform]

Thank you for this! That was one of the things my H actually said just prior to BD - "I don't know why I'm dissociating."  He had a look of sheer terror on his face.  That was scarier than Monster ever was.

[kikki]

How interesting that he even knew to call it that?  Or do you think it was an intuitive response from him?

Mine said 'he no longer knew who he was any more'  He was also petrified.
In fact - that was his reasoning behind the OW - she made him 'feel safe'.   

[FindingJoJo]

How interesting that he even knew to call it that?  Or do you think it was an intuitive response from him?

Mine said 'he no longer knew who he was any more'  He was also petrified.
In fact - that was his reasoning behind the OW - she made him 'feel safe'.

Oh man I hear that "I no longer know who I am anymore" too.  He is petrified, he is afraid to face me he tells others.  I am such a meanie.

[kikki]

Oh man I hear that "I no longer know who I am anymore" too.  He is petrified, he is afraid to face me he tells others.  I am such a meanie.

Then of course - this all could fit with emotional detachment, lack of empathy, blaming of the spouse/life that happens with severe depression, and very  low serotonin levels.
Plus RCR has mentioned the lack of identity is due to a psychosocial moratorium.  Something that teens go through.  They don't know who they are, so they try on different identities. She believes MLCers go through the same thing.

So - who would know really. 

[Ready2Transform]

How interesting that he even knew to call it that?  Or do you think it was an intuitive response from him?

Oh, I knew he was way too familiar with the concept, but my real signal that something was wrong was when he couldn't elaborate more on it, and instead became 'different' again. 

My H comes from a family of mental illness and was scared to death of it (I think you mentioned your H having that same fear).  One uncle in particular lived with his grandparents until they died.  He now lives in a tent that some people let him pitch on their property alongside the highway, so the trash truck can pick him up for work (another aunt's husband got him the job).  When my H was a teen he told the story of his uncle maniacally laughing one day.  Someone asked him what was so funny and he said, "I just told myself a joke that I hadn't heard before."  He was serious.  That just never left my H.

He was always a reader and self-development guy - 180 indeed.  I think he probably went deeper in the rabbit hole to avoid the distinct awareness he was really having of what was happening.  He was so relieved at the beginning of 2010 to have decided to seek treatment for this "thing" that was happening to him, but the Bipolar diagnosis threw him HARD.  It was like the beginning of the end for him.   That was from his M.D. who put him on anti-psychotics right away ().  He found a psychiatrist from there that took him off of those and put him on SSRIs out the wazoo.  That was our "turning point" where statements of "maybe we won't be together forever" out of depression turned into Monster and then some.

Honestly, I'm relieved that it's MLC (and I have no doubts it is - he is on script like he was the one who wrote it!).  It really could be much worse.

[kikki]

Honestly, I'm relieved that it's MLC (and I have no doubts it is - he is on script like he was the one who wrote it!).  It really could be much worse.

My H is the same.  Bang on script.
And yes, he is the same as your H.  Petrified of his family history of mental illness.  And most therapists have mentioned bipolar as well. 
I guess there are just so many crossovers with all of these things - it is incredibly confusing, even for the 'experts'.

[Ready2Transform]

Y'know, even if it were a "recognized" disorder, if I were a psychiatrist, I think I'd still be hesitant to give someone an MLC diagnosis.  I feel like I would have to err on the side of this being permanent rather than tell a patient that they just need to go through the process to come out the other side.  We *know* them so intimately that we can see the 180 difference, but there would be no way for a stranger to gauge it, I think.  It's so frustrating...sad...but again, if we weren't going through it...fascinating.

[kikki]

You're absolutely right Ready2 - wise words 

This therapist earlier, had said, some people come out of it, some people don't.  Either way - it's not a quick fix - takes many years.  Sigh!

[Ready2Transform]

Y'know, if it was cancer, we'd all be glad for every moment, sick or not, and would accept the journey because we'd HAVE to.  It's not like if our spouses were still "themselves" we'd all have perfect lives with them.  There would still be ups and downs.  So there is this, "Well I'm going to have to walk through time anyway, might as well trust the process!".  LOL  With MLC, there's at least the promise of transformation, and a newfound awareness and joy in little things.  Even if they don't come out, WE DO.  It will not be forever for us unless we choose that.  And we tend to glamorize the life we "would have had" had this not happened, when really, it could have sucked.

It really does astound me when I look back to 2008, when I believe my crisis started, and realize how much time has past, how much I've screwed up, but how much BETTER I am now.  The same as before - but better.  GROWN - finally.  That really is the best way to describe it.  The days feel like centuries, but the years pass quickly.  They do *anyway*.  I think sometimes we get so caught on the time frame we forget that. 

[Silmarion]

I'm sure I haven't taken in every comment on here but the gist of it seems to be about the same thing - answers.  I know that's why I first researched the reason my h left and why he felt he no longer loved me.  I was in turmoil and I needed security.  A place that had answers to my confusion.  I found a lot of that on this site.

However, the more I understand, the less I feel the need to 'label' my h's 'condition.'  It is interesting, that I came here to understand him.  What I've done, is understand my self.  I echo some of what has been said here.  Therapy is for one's self.  It's not for the other. 

Therapists seemed to range on here from psychologists to psychiatrists and the psychotherapist.  The training is very different and therefore the outcomes will be different.  GP's diagnose - counsellors/psychotherapists don't (or shouldn't!)  The right psychotherapist will understand middle life and if they don't and you do - find one that does!

While we are looking at the MLCer's mlc we might not be looking at our own.  Without a doubt, I too have been experiencing my middle of life and it has taken some of my h's midlife enounter, to steer me into looking at myself.

Much has been written on mlc and mlt -  a little knowledge is powerful but it can also be powerless as it opens up even more  doors.  The understanding of one's self and another is never ending.

[Ready2Transform]

I just want to quote your whole post Silmarion and say "YES!". 

[kikki]

'Yes!' from me too.  You're quite right Silmarion.

The therapist I saw is a psychotherapist, but I guess it would be the Jungian psychotherapists that would be more likely to deal with and understand midlife?

I came away from yesterday's session feeling very very 'black'.  I know it is only his opinion, and it is only a theory, but it seemed like such a finite thing and such a closed door to any hope that one day my H and the boys' Dad, may pull him self out of this mess.

[Ready2Transform]

It is actually a good thing to face the possibility of him staying in forever.  Truly being "As if...".  I think when you are able to do that, you give yourself the gift of true independence.  BUT, having said that, some important points: 

some people come out of it, some people don't.

Some do.  I did.  You've seen other examples here, too.

Either way - it's not a quick fix - takes many years.

...and you're already several years in. With some pretty serious touch-and-go's. 

That's not to give you false hope, which I think might be what you're fearing, but I see no reason for you to have regular hope.

This site wouldn't exist if there were no hope, but if you let yourself dwell a little in the idea that he might not come back, mourn that, and be free, you're not actually hurting his process, or slimming his chances.  Your hope alone is not sustaining him (I say that because sometimes I think that's what's helping my H). 

In August 2011, I called my dad and told him he would be hearing from me when I wanted to speak to him, but otherwise he was to leave me alone.  I intended to phase him out of my life from there and seek therapy for all of the problems he had caused in my life.  Sound familiar?  Prior to all of this, any movement he made to try to "help" me felt like he was trying to kill me.  In fact, I actually thought he WAS trying to kill me.  By offering me mints!  That I thought were poisoned!  Quit laughing, I'm serious!

When we had this phone call, he said he just thought I was "lost", but he didn't tell me that.  He just said, "Ok, know that I'm always here for you."  Then he did what I asked.  He knew it could have been permanent (I really haven't talked to my mother in 18 years, but that's a whole other enchilada...), but he also knew from putting up with me the last several years that there was nothing more he could do for me.

I gradually moved closer, pulled back, rinse, repeat, until I really NEEDED HIM.  And he was my rock.  And he validated.  And he waited until I was ready to discuss things (which has been in the last month). 

This process does work, I think more often than not.  But I know we can't *say* that because what if it doesn't.  Like Silmarion said, this is a process that is sincerely for us, too, and you're at the right place with the right therapist who is going to focus on YOUR experience in a way that you as a wonderful caregiver to your kids and your H might not have been allotting time for (and that ain't a judgement - it is obvious that you are just very compassionate and conscientious of your H's state!).  Turn that black to sparkly white, and shine.  You DESERVE it for all you have done thus far, and the distance you are yet willing to go.

[kikki]

 

It is actually a good thing to face the possibility of him staying in forever.  Truly being "As if...".  I think when you are able to do that, you give yourself the gift of true independence. 

Ready2 - I really want to thank you so much for your post.  You absolutely hit the nail on the head.
I know this issue is a possibility - but I had it somewhere in a compartment in my brain that knew it intellectually, but I need to face this from an emotional sense.  Where to from here is not easy to answer when you're so intwined in every sense, as we are!

In August 2011, I called my dad and told him he would be hearing from me when I wanted to speak to him, but otherwise he was to leave me alone.  I intended to phase him out of my life from there and seek therapy for all of the problems he had caused in my life.  Sound familiar?  Prior to all of this, any movement he made to try to "help" me felt like he was trying to kill me.  In fact, I actually thought he WAS trying to kill me.  By offering me mints!  That I thought were poisoned!  Quit laughing, I'm serious!

Wow - the mind of the MLCer.  Thank you for sharing - it is extraordinary. 
Love the mint story - although it is quite tragic at the same time 

Like Silmarion said, this is a process that is sincerely for us, too, and you're at the right place with the right therapist who is going to focus on YOUR experience in a way that you as a wonderful caregiver to your kids and your H might not have been allotting time for (and that ain't a judgement - it is obvious that you are just very compassionate and conscientious of your H's state!).  Turn that black to sparkly white, and shine.  You DESERVE it for all you have done thus far, and the distance you are yet willing to go.

Thanks Ready2 - I agree - it is time to concentrate on me. 

[Silmarion]

Oh, how rude of me...I meant to add my signature to my last post...


Sil x

 

Yes - do read some Erikson (Erik) and Jung, both talk of middle life.  Also Murray Stein. Jed Diamond is very useful for looking at male depression and menopause :  http://menalive.com/

Wishing all well.

Sil x

[kikki]

Thanks Sil, will do