[Niek]

@Honor. I don't know, never consulted a hypnotherapist. But this book is really very interesting. It explains how our brain and body works and to break free of our emotions.

[Ready2Transform]

I haven't read that book, BUT the brain entrainment audio my H and I used/produced utilized "brain wave technology", ie audio waves and subliminal messaging underneath other ambient, affirmations, or musical noise.  There's some good commercially available stuff, but when we made our own and I used the waves that are the "deepest levels" was when we really started having intense experiences with it that were meant to go into our subconscious and 'fix' things.  We thought it would just give us confidence.  I'm not convinced it didn't work...I just don't think I realized the role it would play in turning a lock that needed to be turned.

[honour]

No, never read it. In less than 5 minutes?

The title of hypnotist Paul McKenna's book "Instant Confidence" implies that 5 minutes would be dragging the process of self transformation out a bit.

@Honor. I don't know, never consulted a hypnotherapist. But this book is really very interesting. It explains how our brain and body works and to break free of our emotions.

I'm sure it is very interesting, thank you for recommending it. I'm not disagreeing with you. I'm of the same view. I'm just pointing that these ideas have been around for a long time but few of us take the time and effort to put the theory in to practise. It's so easy to be swept along with the staus quo.
I'm sure I've read somewhere that brain scans of buddhists practising compassion meditation have shown physical changes to the amygdala. Through meditation buddhists claim a state of Nirvana (the state beyond sorrows) is possible.
Paul of Tarsus wrote "be transformed by the renewing of your mind." and "whatsoever things are true, honest, just, pure, lovely, of good report, if there be any virtue and if there be any praise, think on these things...and the God of peace will be with you.
Three thousand years ago the South American Toltecs taught that a "New Dream" a "state of bliss" is possible, achieved by changing the way we think; the words we speak.
Jung believed it possible to be free of all neurosis.
Benjamin Franklin had his Thirteen Subjects to which he believed he owed all his success and happiness.
Step 11 of the twelve Step Program "Sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with God as we understood God, praying only for knowledge of God's will for us and the power to carry that out."

These ideas have been around in various forms for a long time, but what do we do in the 21st century? We switch on the tv and receive a near constant stream garbage. Just look at the viewing figures for the rubbishy soap operas with all their less than ideal story lines. Look at the amount of pornography that is consumed in the USA alone; it's a massive industry. All the nonsense pumped out by the advertising and fashion industries persuading us if we don't have this or that we are inadequate. The vast quantities of "Jackie Collins" style "romantic" novels. Not to mention the vast quantities of illegal drugs consumed.
 
Is it doing us any good? Your computer geeks could be forgiven for calling it Garbage In, Garbage Out.

It often takes a crisis or trauma to shake us up a bit and make us take stock and make some changes for the better. Our spouses's MLC could be one of the best things that ever happened to us.

If it can be done in 5 minutes there would be no one more pleased than me.

honour

[kikki]

Thanks for the Birthday Wishes SP 
What an interesting thread. 
That book definitely looks like a good read Niek.  No, I haven't read the other one either. 

There are a number of people on this forums who regarded their spouses as workaholics, or highly stressed for long periods, who may have got to the point of burnout. In some cases, the need to work so hard/ a perfectionist drive comes from some much deeper rooted issues in childhood. Perfectionist workaholics feel valued by what they do, not who they are.

Mermaid, this is 100% my H, although I think there are also childhood issues to deal with too. 
Do you mean that the burnout MLCers may come through this, whereas some of the others may not?
My H is still completely obsessed with work, although no longer has ANY other responsibilities, so maybe he is getting more let up than when he was at home?

Like the sound of the 'instant' change - wouldn't that be like waving a magic wand?

[trusting]

There are a number of people on this forums who regarded their spouses as workaholics, or highly stressed for long periods, who may have got to the point of burnout. In some cases, the need to work so hard/ a perfectionist drive comes from some much deeper rooted issues in childhood. Perfectionist workaholics feel valued by what they do, not who they are.

That also describes my husband to a T.  It has gotten much worse with MLC.  I do believe it is rooted in his childhood, that he did not get the validation he felt he needed and now is "proving" himself. 

[Dontgiveup]

There are a number of people on this forums who regarded their spouses as workaholics, or highly stressed for long periods, who may have got to the point of burnout. In some cases, the need to work so hard/ a perfectionist drive comes from some much deeper rooted issues in childhood. Perfectionist workaholics feel valued by what they do, not who they are.

I believe this also.  It's part of the identity crisis that is MLC and has the deeper rooted issues indicated.

However, this only accounts for some of the spouses, not all of them.

This may be because the need to work and/or be a perfectionist are symptoms.  MLC has many common symptoms, but there can be some variance.

I say "true" in inverted commas because research in psychopathology/ neurology indicates that there isn't one true self stable over a life time. The self as we know it is the result of interaction between different areas of the brain. If one area is affected (by lesions, toxins, tumours, illness, hormones etc.) the "self" changes. Our behaviour can change according to what we eat, drink, medications, exercise, as well as thoughts and expectations.

I think we continue to mature and develop over time......Erickson life stage development (or lack thereof for MLCers).

I appreciate that this is a simplified explanation of human behaviour, but I wanted to emphasise that what we call MLC is actually a variety of behaviours with multiple causes.

I agree that MLC has a variety of behaviors.....I believe these fall under the symptomology of MLC....though there is a lot of consistency with that as well.  We know this because of all the commonalities of stories on Heros Spouse.

I do not believe that MLC has mulitple causes, but I understand that some do believe that.  In my opinion, the multiple symptoms make it seem like there may be multiple causes.  I think the cause of MLC is developmental.....unresolved issues.

This is important, because some spouses will not return to their previous behaviour, which they were unable to maintain.

Below is from RCR's article Stories and Human Behavior.  It is something that both RCR and Jim Conway say in their materials.

An MLCer may become stuck, but those are the rare cases.

Others are at the beginning of a decline (there are cases of dementia), others show clear signs of developing psychotic behaviours (some of which are treatable, but nothing can be treated against their will). Other are going through trauma (stress), the results of medications, alcohol, or other illness. There are some (not all) who have some deep emotional issues to resolve.

I believe medical and psychiatric diagnosis and separate issues from MLC.  I believe MLC is emotional/developmental.

Personally, I find that an intellectual approach calms me, although we are all different. Once we have understood the type of crisis we are facing, we can take our decisions: detach, set firm boundaries and wait, or move on with our lives.

I think this is good input.  From RCR's article on Acceptance.

Acceptance in its intellectual form is about recognizing the process. For many this includes self-education about MLC, its root causes and recent triggers and thus recognizing that regardless of your flaws and indiscretions, his MLC is not your fault. If the fault is not yours, neither is the solution.

[Mermaid]

There are a number of people on this forums who regarded their spouses as workaholics, or highly stressed for long periods, who may have got to the point of burnout. In some cases, the need to work so hard/ a perfectionist drive comes from some much deeper rooted issues in childhood. Perfectionist workaholics feel valued by what they do, not who they are.

Mermaid, this is 100% my H, although I think there are also childhood issues to deal with too. 
Do you mean that the burnout MLCers may come through this, whereas some of the others may not?

Yes. Some are in a temporary situation that gets resolved. Others are not. I've seen some evidence of this on the forum so far. There are a few cases of deep PD that may not be easy to resolve.

My H is still completely obsessed with work, although no longer has ANY other responsibilities, so maybe he is getting more let up than when he was at home?

May be that lets him escape the pressures he feels. My H did the same thing, finding an escape valve from his perceived pressures. But then he missed his family, and came home. They have to get to that point.

[kikki]

Thanks Mermaid.  My H said a couple of months ago, that he misses the boys more and more as time goes on.  He seemed surprised by this.

I just raised my eyebrows, and said, of course you miss them more and more. 

He is still cycling rapidly, so time will tell if he ever wants to and manages to grow t*sticles the size of texas, and ask to come home, as one person put it. 

[Mermaid]

This may be because the need to work and/or be a perfectionist are symptoms.  MLC has many common symptoms, but there can be some variance.

Perfectionism isn't a symptom of MLC. It's a personality trait.

research in psychopathology/ neurology indicates that there isn't one true self stable over a life time. The self as we know it is the result of interaction between different areas of the brain. If one area is affected (by lesions, toxins, tumours, illness, hormones etc.) the "self" changes. Our behaviour can change according to what we eat, drink, medications, exercise, as well as thoughts and expectations.

 

I think we continue to mature and develop over time......Erickson life stage development (or lack thereof for MLCers).

This has nothing to do with Erikson, which is to do with maturity. It's to do with neuropsychology. As "the self"is not located in any one brain region, the changes in the functioning of a region can change the sense of self. There are many famous cases, starting with Phineas Gage, who changed completely and permenantly after a head injury. See, for example, work by world reknowned neuroscientist António Damasio, neurologist Oliver Sacks (very accessible), philosopher Daniel Dennett.

I do not believe that MLC has mulitple causes, but I understand that some do believe that.  In my opinion, the multiple symptoms make it seem like there may be multiple causes.  I think the cause of MLC is developmental.....unresolved issues.

If this is a question of belief, there's no point discussing science.

My point is that evidence, even from this board, suggests that MLC is not ONE thing. This is why therapists don't treat it as ONE thing. MLC is a populist term, with little  basis in science. Not all MLC behaviours are a result of unresolved issues. There are cases here of psychotic behaviour, which frankly needs psychiatric care, others of sociopathic behaviour which pre-dates the crisis, others of forms of dementia and depression.  Yes, there are some unresolved issues too, and some cases where the spouse is evidently immature.

An MLCer may become stuck, but those are the rare cases.

How do you know? Not even RCR would quantify this!!! And as a statistic, it may cause us to cling to expectations. I understand how desparate we all become, looking for hope, looking for reasons to believe. This site is an oasis of hope in a dessert of cycnism, and so it should remain. But hope is not expectation, and they so easily become confused. Hope is eternal, gives us life. Expectations keep us stuck, stop us from that important focus on ourselves, and our wholeness.

I believe medical and psychiatric diagnosis and separate issues from MLC.  I believe MLC is emotional/developmental.

Everyone is entitled to their beliefs. Beliefs have no discussion, because they are just that. They are very important to each and every one of us. But I'm trying to introduce a little science here, which is based on empirically testing a hypothesis, a systematic search for evidence.

I'm pushing my scientific approach as a way of detaching ourselves from events, depersonalising them. It's not only that the process of intellectualising calms the emotions. It's also that it helps to  understand that their are a range of psychiatric, neurological, chemical, genetic, and emotional reasons for our spouses' behaviour. Personally, it makes me feel a little less hurt, a little less angry. I hope it may help others, too.

[Mermaid]

Thanks Mermaid.  My H said a couple of months ago, that he misses the boys more and more as time goes on.  He seemed surprised by this.

I just raised my eyebrows, and said, of course you miss them more and more. 

He is still cycling rapidly, so time will tell if he ever wants to and manages to grow t*sticles the size of texas, and ask to come home, as one person put it.

Hope,  no expectations. 

BTW, your time line is similar to mine. I've been married now 24 years, BD1 Jan 2009, although no PA, and he only moved out for short periods. I think if his EA had gone physical, it would have resolved itself more clearly, but taken longer. It takes 2-3 years for an infatuation to burn itself out. My H has been home for a year, but not everything was resolved when he came home.