[Anjae]

They don’t remember a lot of stuff. I’ve seen that on my low energy cousin and a bit on my husband regarding pre-BD and OW1 times since OW1 is no more. But its all about what could be called small stuff. Not remembering things that he said or did. He remembers OW1 existed, I’m certain he remember they went abroad several times and he knows he has been meeting her behind my back.

I found it very hard to believe they don’t remember the affair, that they have lived for years on end with someone while married or that they have married OW/OM. All MLCers who have married OW/OM remember had married that person.

Would say that those who still have the LBS when they are out of the tunnel will be reminded forever in the middle of a conversation of things they don’t remember.

They will be shocked of all they have done but they know some of what they have done.

[Ready2Transform]

I was about to agree that big life events get remembered, but an instance actually occurred to me that might be considered a big event that I'd forgotten.

We were in the grocery store last spring, grabbing a bag of cat food.  We started arguing about which to get since we were just getting an "emergency bag" until we got to the pet store for our normal brand, and I was arguing against one particular kind because I knew our cat J wouldn't eat it.  It was halfway into the argument before I realized J had died several months earlier.  I know he was euthanized at our vet and that I was holding him, and I see where he's buried in my backyard every day, but no memories still to this day surrounding his passing.  It's like he was here, and now he is gone.

[Anjae]

There can be some big events we temporarily forget. Last year I was ill, with fever and when I wake up I though I was still at home, with husband. I felt pretty ill so texted him to take me to the hospital (yep). I walked around the flat, half a sleep and burning in fever, looking for him. End up texted my mum and brother saying I could not find husband. They come round, said we had been separated for years, I said what they were saying did not made sense. When the fever passed I knew were I was and remembered that I had forgot the situation for a little while.

But that is not the same as forget for ever that one has lived with OW/OM for years on end. Come on, where have you been for all those years if you were not living with you spouse and there are tons of photos of you with that other person? All those vacations photos, all the photos on the house you’ve shared... And if you married the other person you know you are no longer married to your former spouse. Same if you divorce, you know you’re divorced.

And my husband had not forgot he had been meeting OW1 in hotels before he left. I know by his tone of voice when I tell him I know the affair started months before he left and he says : You know nothing about it. It is a very different tone of voice from when he says: I don’t remember any of those things you’re talking about. The second is genuine, the first he is scared and hiding something.

In a way AmyC strikes me as a bit of a “poor me”. She says the LBS as to humble itself in order for the MLCer to feel save to be back (I would say it is the other round, the super nasty arrogant MLCer has to humble itself if they want a chance with the LBS), she seems mortified that her husband reminds her things she had done and she does not remember. She pretty much sounds like and MLCe: she never meant to do any of it, she is so sorry she has hurt people. It is all about her, all about how the LBS has to be understanding and kind and sweet, it is never about her husband or the fact she did wrong. It is never: well, I messed up, I would get it if my husband would not took me back.

[Trustandlove]

Just a comment,

I know you say it still sounds like "poor me"; well, to a degree I believe it is.  I went through a horrible "crisis" of a type when I was much younger -- if I had been middle-aged it could have been called an MLC, but I was way too young for that.  The reasons for it don't matter right now, but a couple of things leaped out:

1 -- the 'not remembering'.  Earlier this year I was reminded of something I did during this time, which I TOTALLY didn't remember.  That is, I sort of remembered the situation, but definitely not the particulars -- I even thought there were different people involved than there were.  This isn't a case of forgetting after a long time, this is something that I had thought for years happened differently than it did. 

Whether I had buried the reality because I was too ashamed or whatever is also besides the point; I had already asked for and been given forgiveness, but I STILL didn't remember something.  And it had been hurtful for others the way it happened; the reality was more hurtful to others than it would have been had it happened I had remembered it.  Even now I have to take their word for it, because in my mind it honestly was someone else there.  But I believe those that tell me what happened. 

I know that sounds convoluted; please forgive me for omitting details. 

And about the 'poor me'; yes, I messed up; there were reasons for it both within myself and without.  And it WAS painful.  The fact that the pain was badly handled is true, but it doesn't change the pain.  I'm certainly not justifying what I did (and no, it didn't involve an affair), but in order for true reconciliation of any kind to take place the pain of the person in crisis needs to be acknowledged as well. 

I see this in my female MLCer friend; she is clearly in HUGE pain.  Which blinds her to the effects of her actions on others.  It doesn't excuse her behaviour, but her pain is real as well. 

[Anjae]

Trust, I don’t doubt the pain of the MLCer, still AmyC is too “poor me” for my liking. She should b grateful her husband was there for her when she come out of the tunnel rather than being surprised with the obvious or ranting to the LBS that we are the ones who have to be nice, kind, humble because the poor MLCer would not know who they are if we are not there for them.

MLC is a risk but it is a risk for both, LBS and MLCer, not just for the LBS who may stand just to find itself alone in the end. The MLcer runs the risk of not finding the MLCer when they are out of the tunnel. And no LBS has to be hold because the “poor MLCer” may be lost without us if we are not there for them.

But that is the thing, the MLCer remembers the situation (the big things), not the details. Therefore they know very well that they have been cheating on us, took all the money, wen to court, lived with OW/OM, married OW/OM or whatever big thing they have done. They are not that blind and they never forget the big things. At least not until many years after the crisis. At least I don’t believe they forget.

I can accept that a person in crisis thinks things happened one way when, in fact, they never did. But it remains the same, the LBS does not have to be forced to accept the MLCer just because they were out of their mind. It is up to the LBS to choose, not to a former MLCer to tell any LBS what they must or must not do. And AmyC strikes me as someone who is exhorting the LBS to do “the right thing”: wait for the “poor MLCer” otherwise this poor person will forever be lost and no longer remember who they are. I’m sorry but that is the price they may have to pay for their crisis.

No need to apologise for omitting details. You do not have to share anything you don’t to/feel comfortable with.

The bad handling of the pain does not change the pain of the person in crisis but the person in crisis seems to have a terrible problem in getting their pain is not greater than the LBS (or any other person directly involved in the crisis).

And I do not see AmyC acknowledged her husband’s pain and just how extraordinary lucky she was in still having him. She seems to want all LBS to remain waiting for their MLCer and to be fine with what the MLCer have done. Sorry but I cannot be fine with what my husband has done. He is forgive (he has been for years), I accept the crisis, I don’t fight with him and let him be but I’m not fine with it nor I think he handled things the right way. And I never will.

But when they are out of the crisis they manage to see the effects of their actions in others. Even if it isn’t because some of them will find themselves divorced , closed door to the LBS and huge trail of financial destruction. AmyC does not seem to be very good at that realising what her action really caused. It is all centred on her. I do not see/sense any genuine remorse on her and seems to want her behaviour to be excused because she was in crisis. Of course one excuses in the sense we know it was the crisis but it does not exempts them of their responsibilities in the crisis and of all the consequences of said crisis. It is their crisis, their issues, their responsibility, not the LBS one.

Ok, maybe I’m not very “poor me” MLCer friendly lately… Maybe this is a necessary part of my own journey.

[Trustandlove]

Anne, you have some very valid points.

I didn't read all of AmyC's thread in detail on DB; I don't know if she writes about feeling grateful or otherwise to her husband.  It is possible that the bits we read are just the ones in which she tries to explain herself, to provide information to LBSs who want to try to see what the other side is like, and that she just hasn't written about other things; perhaps she hasn't articulated feeling grateful.  I don't know; perhaps it's in there somewhere. 

[Anjae]

Trust, I read some of AmyC thread on BD. To me she always comes across unkind to the LBS to whom she is trying to pass information about the other side. There is a world of difference between what she writes and Stayed’s husband letter & Sassy’s husband writings and infos about the other side. Their husbabd' men are kind and humble; do not come across as anti a LBS who has moved forward as AmyC does.

Was thinking about the risk. We’re said, and rightfully so, that there are no guarantees, that we may not have teh MLCer back. But, in a way, the MLCer is the one running the bigger risk. Most likely than not they will not find the LBS waiting for them. Maybe that is why some, like my husband and Kikki’s husband make it so hard for us to divorce. If we are divorced they know we will move forward, the only way they have to try to stop that is keeping us legally attached to them. Still, the MLCer cannot be sure the LBS will not fall in love with someone else.

[Trustandlove]

Looking over it some more, I don't see her as 'exhorting the LBS to do the right thing'; in that I read that she is so very grateful to her H for DOING that.  I do see her more as explaining rather than groveling, and I find that perspective valuable.  I don't want my H to grovel, and I don't think that my H will ever say something like "what was I thinking".  He's where he is, he hasn't figured himself out yet, I can't change that.  All I can do is continue for myself.

But then again, my sitch is different, my H isn't keeping me from 'moving on'; I'm living how I choose rather than it being dictated by him.  Which does make a difference. 

[OldPilot]

If anyone is interested I have been running this same thread over on the DB board and it has taken a little different turn there.
So if anyone is interested in following it here is the link.

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2253741#Post2253741

[Trustandlove]

I tried to follow it; I got a bit confused -- did someone say that AmyC didn't reconcile after all?  That her H was an alcoholic?  That puts a different twist on things as well.