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Author Topic: Discussion MLC or just Passive Aggressive behaviour ?

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Discussion MLC or just Passive Aggressive behaviour ?
OP: June 19, 2012, 08:56:23 AM
I have been reading several articles about this which my H and many others here  clearly portray.

I am asking the question....is it MLC or is it just, this is who my H is...or maybe it is both  :-\

Here is a link to an article that is my H to a tee.  :(

http://www.angriesout.com/couples8.htm
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Re: MLC or just Passive Aggressive behaviour ?
#1: June 19, 2012, 09:51:34 AM
I have printed some of this off and I am going to show it to my H tonight...I know he will use his passive aggressive behaviour to avoid it, but lets see if it has any impact ...doubt it though  :(
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Re: MLC or just Passive Aggressive behaviour ?
#2: June 19, 2012, 10:06:40 AM
Hiya,

I put this in another post, but this is exactly what I did. I printed the PA article off ( the one i had said covert abuse on it) and gave it to him. He was really shocked because he couldn't hide the fact that it described all of him.

His response to me was if there was ever a set of traits nobody wants it's those! He then proceeded to climb nto the corner and got a book, wrote down the headings and wrote about himself under each one. Then hours and hours later he brought the book through to me and asked me to read it. He was very honest I'll give him that !

All this was only a few months ago. He was gutted about it at the time, but has never mentioned it since. It must be filed for processing when he can face it. Would I show him again - absol tootin lutely.

interested to hear how your H will respond.

Good luck
SD
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Re: MLC or just Passive Aggressive behaviour ?
#3: June 19, 2012, 10:24:07 AM
Thanks superdog very interesting....he has just come home and gone the gym with son...the football is on tonight but I need to show him before it...

He always comes up with an excuse not to talk..he's going to work or sleep...he has just woke up or is hungry...reading this , as you say describes him to a tee...and me...I used to feel like a right b*&^% because i don't let things go..so I would go on and on and even the kids I think saw me as a nag. Now D is older she notices his avoidance ..she says , you know what hes like, he wont do anything. Sad thing is when he does get involved, say on holiday or a night out...he loves  it and he is such good company, he just likes to resist me asking him, but the problem is he never initiates anything.

I realise he probably wont totally transform, but if he is not willing to even try then I fear I am done... :(
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Re: MLC or just Passive Aggressive behaviour ?
#4: June 19, 2012, 01:02:24 PM
Hyperglad,

I agree those are some ugly traits in there and most websites you read with forums tell you to get the hell out of dodge. Like you I thought it was me, thought he was a lazy $h!te too, maybe he just was !

The bit i did realise was the pretending to have told you things that you KNOW they didn't or saying I didn't say that and you'd go doubt yourself. The go round in circles arguments and the blaiming you. The covert getting you back is creepy.

I now know it wasn't me that was insane at all and will never question that again.

Please post how you got on.

SD x
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Re: MLC or just Passive Aggressive behaviour ?
#5: June 19, 2012, 01:07:36 PM

The bit i did realise was the pretending to have told you things that you KNOW they didn't or saying I didn't say that and you'd go doubt yourself. The go round in circles arguments and the blaiming you.

I think describes all of 2011 and most of 2012 even through now.
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Re: MLC or just Passive Aggressive behaviour ?
#6: June 19, 2012, 01:15:08 PM
I have to say he has never been lazy...but he will do everything at his own pace....and he often fails to finish things.

We are watching the football so I will show him what I have after that . ;)
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Re: MLC or just Passive Aggressive behaviour ?
#7: June 19, 2012, 03:26:30 PM
Hi Hyperglad
Thanks for posting.  I wonder if passive aggressive behaviour is tied in with an avoidant personality? 
I've read a few times that avoidants are more likely to have a MLC, than most people.
I wonder if Passive aggression can be included in that too?

The article on neurotransmitters that AnneJ posted recently, stated that whatever personality quirks someone has will be amplified greatly, when certain neurotransmitters become low enough.  (It also mentioned MLC when serotonin becomes enormously low).

I know our MLCers are all different, but mine did show some of these traits to some extent, but they became grossly amplified once the crisis years hit.  (along with narcissism etc).

A couple of weeks ago, out of the blue, he opened up to me about having always been dishonest about his feelings - how his FOO didn't ever allow him to have any or express any or acknowledge them, and so he spent his whole life denying everything and covering it up by being 'happy' 'happy' or saying everything will be just fine. 
I guess this is part of the process - where to from here I don't know. 
I gave my H the neurotransmitter article to read a few weeks ago, which seemed to scare the living daylights out of him.  (he is petrified of mental illness due to his family history). It was a couple of weeks after this that he told me the above about covering up his feelings - so I have to wonder if this got him thinking???
I don't like to ask too much though - mainly try to listen and validate. 

Good luck with getting your H to read about this.  Will be interested to hear how you go. 
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Re: MLC or just Passive Aggressive behaviour ?
#8: June 20, 2012, 01:12:31 AM
Interesting article; of course it made me reflect.

What I see in that description is what my H has been during this crisis, it really wasn't him at all before.  And my H is quite an avoidant, especially of conflict. 

Like the article says, we all do this to some degree, but generally we keep it under control.  Like so much, in MLC it gets OUT of control, and is allowed to take over. 

It suggests straight talking as the only remedy, if there is one; I tend to agree.  What happens with us as LBS is that the fear takes over, yes, it does, and that keeps us from the straight talking.  That isn't to blame us -- it is natural.  It's just what happens. 

I've found that every single time when true straight talking is possible then it always diffuses this passive aggression, it's just that true straight talking isn't as simple as it sounds. 

Of course, I also see where I have, not necessarily consciously, showed some passive-aggressive behaviour when trying to avoid or stall some MLC madness....  it's not easy to keep a clear head and understand when just not doing anything even if we said we would is "being still", and when it isn't right...

As with so much, we can learn from this. 
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Re: MLC or just Passive Aggressive behaviour ?
#9: June 20, 2012, 12:07:58 PM
Kiki my H is a conflict avoider too....i think many display quite a lot of similar traits.

 
Quote
What happens with us as LBS is that the fear takes over, yes, it does, and that keeps us from the straight talking.  That isn't to blame us -- it is natural.  It's just what happens. 


T&L this is so so true...when the fear goes we are much more powerful.

So last night I showed my h the article...he read it all and then said...why do you have to live your life by what is written down  :o :o :o I said do you recognise yourself...he said NO....I said well i do. I said I cannot and will not go on living this way...you asked to come home...you agreed to try and make things different, however it feels to me like we have just slipped back into what we had before and for me it is not enough. He started making the usual excuses and then said well maybe its not working out like we thought...I said maybe not...he said maybe I should look for somewhere else to live (threats  8) ) I said well if you feel you cant make an effort that's your choice and maybe you should, I got up and went to bed.

As I left the room he said....don't leave, come back and talk...nope I had finished talking no point...time for him to reflect. I woke this morning and he was next to me...he reached over and cuddled into me and said sorry....i said I don't want you to be sorry I want you to be different...so lets see what the next few days bring . He has been very attentive today...lets see if it lasts  :-\
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Re: MLC or just Passive Aggressive behaviour ?
#10: June 20, 2012, 12:10:02 PM
Hyper,
I'm watching this with great interest as you can imagine.
Please keep us posted....

Hang in there...you are so strong...
bon
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Re: MLC or just Passive Aggressive behaviour ?
#11: June 20, 2012, 12:26:42 PM
Well done Hyper - keep us posted.  I agree - I wouldn't be prepared to live with this sort of behaviour for the rest of my life either. We've all been through too much and learnt so much.
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Re: MLC or just Passive Aggressive behaviour ?
#12: June 20, 2012, 01:22:32 PM
Hiya,

loved your answer and the fact you just kept walking out the room- well done you !

Once the fear has gone from us LBS's it's such a relief and after all that's been said and done by our H's they have to sit up and take notice that when something has to change then actually... something has to change.

Funny, my H said something similar to me loads of times. Why do you always quote some website or book, can't you think for yourself. I said why did you look up how to wire the cooker cable, can't you think for yourself?? It's called research you big plum !

SD
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Re: MLC or just Passive Aggressive behaviour ?
#13: June 20, 2012, 01:41:36 PM
Quote
Funny, my H said something similar to me loads of times. Why do you always quote some website or book, can't you think for yourself. I said why did you look up how to wire the cooker cable, can't you think for yourself?? It's called research you big plum !
Nice response  ;)
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Re: MLC or just Passive Aggressive behaviour ?
#14: June 21, 2012, 07:03:44 AM
Thanks everyone...Superdog, love that reply i will use that next time as he always says...you take too much notice of what people write on the internet. :)

So later today I am going to view a house I am looking at buying to sell when i retire. In his rant the other day my H said he wasn't interested in saving for retirement as you could be dead soon and when your old you don't need money  :o :o. So although I had mentioned this viewing (we have been to several over the last month) I am going to go alone.

If he asks , "why didn't you remind me" I am going to say, well you made it clear you don't want to be involved so i am going to just go ahead and do it myself ...hope that doesn't seem too harsh, but I am sick of him acting like a child (which I told him the other night by the way) He either wants to be in an adult grown up relationship...which as I told the other day means give and take on both parts but also doing things together, or he doesn't in which case he can toddle off and do whatever he wants and make himself happy ever after.

I will keep you posted.
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Re: MLC or just Passive Aggressive behaviour ?
#15: July 07, 2012, 03:02:29 AM
I've just found this, and there are certainly elements that describe my H. He's far from being an underachiever, quite the opposite, but his avoidance of conflict and intimacy are there. Especially this:
Quote
He has such strong fears of intimacy deep in his unconscious mind so he must set barriers up to prevent a deep emotional connection. He is clever at derailing intimacy when it comes up by tuning out his partner and changing the subject. He must withhold part of himself to feel safe and may withdraw sexually. The passive aggressive man lives an internal loneliness. . He is noncommittal and retreats, feeling put upon and burdened by partner's requests for more closeness. He becomes a cave dweller to feel safe.

H spends his life absorbed by work, FB, youtube, books, TV, music; anything but intimacy, conversation, facing issues. Yesterday, when I said I wanted to improve our communication, he said "it's impossible not to communicate. Communication is in everything we do". So he withdrew from the discussion by putting a philosophical point of view. When I said "OK, you are communicating that I don't matter, that my feelings don't matter" he just ignored me, and focussed on his FB photos. He is always blaming me for being cross, and refuses to face the issues which made me cross in the first place.

 Is confronting him with more information about his failures the best thing to do? I'm absolutely certain that if I showed him this article, he would deny it was him. He would see it as controlling, and he can't be controlled. As the article stated, his father was absent, and his mother domineering. The only way to escape her intrusions is to withdraw.

But more importantly, why do we stay with a man like that? Yes, I can recognise a similar pattern from my childhood. My mother patiently coped with my passive aggressive father for years, who in turn felt completely unable to cope with his own domineering mother. My mother was the coper, the pleaser who just got on with things.

So I fell for my Hs charm, neediness, cleverness, and apparent coolness, and ignored his lack of connection to others. I accepted that he was introverted, and reorganised my life around his needs. As he withdraws from me, and blames me, I see myself as failing. The more I work on the relationship, the more he witdraws, and the angrier I get. I switch between taking care of family, finances; to being concerned about his needs) to being the victim of  his behaviour. My self esteem is caught up with his lack of responsiveness.

The solution is NOT to confront (he will withdraw). My psychologist said the other day that I should avoid blowing up at H, but find other, safer ways of blowing off steam. I have a dear, dear friend who said she will be on standby... We should not avoid saying what we need to them directly, but having said it, walk away, and not turn it into a fight. I shouldn't demand more than he can give, or expect that he will suddenly change. This is why we still have to detach and to GAL.

Thanks, Hyper.

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Re: MLC or just Passive Aggressive behaviour ?
#16: July 07, 2012, 05:23:47 AM
Quote
Is confronting him with more information about his failures the best thing to do? I'm absolutely certain that if I showed him this article, he would deny it was him. He would see it as controlling, and he can't be controlled.

yes this is exactly what my H did. said he didn't recognise any of this in himself (I showed it to D27 she said that's him to a tee  ;) ) Then later told me it was a horrible thing to be shown someone  thinks of you like this...then even had the cheek to reflect the part that said they need someone to allow it and blamed me...yes he said it in a jokey way...but how much did he mean.

Quote
We should not avoid saying what we need to them directly, but having said it, walk away, and not turn it into a fight. I shouldn't demand more than he can give, or expect that he will suddenly change. This is why we still have to detach and to GAL.

This is where i am at ...however i am also questioning, quite seriously if i want to remain in a relationship with this person, if a fact for the future is, little or nothing will ever be different  :(
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Re: MLC or just Passive Aggressive behaviour ?
#17: July 07, 2012, 07:27:32 AM

Quote
We should not avoid saying what we need to them directly, but having said it, walk away, and not turn it into a fight. I shouldn't demand more than he can give, or expect that he will suddenly change. This is why we still have to detach and to GAL.

This is where i am at ...however i am also questioning, quite seriously if i want to remain in a relationship with this person, if a fact for the future is, little or nothing will ever be different  :(

I know exactly what you mean. Why would we stay? There has to be a good reason for that. But I'm going to try and change my behaviour first; stop getting angry with him, and be more assertive.
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Re: MLC or just Passive Aggressive behaviour ?
#18: July 08, 2012, 06:59:04 PM
Very interesting thread for me- I always knew my H was passive-aggressive (everybody else said it was "having a calm personality")- but he never took it out on me- till NOW.  He had been contemplating this departure from our home for 1 year ad was actually documenting things about me he didn't like (who does that???)  - well anyways, his passive aggressive behavior turned into blow-ups and leaving the house when angry.  I'm guessing his shrink told him to be more assertive.  Being the chair of his department, he has learned how to get rid of people and has applied the same technique to me.  I guess he thinks everyone is disposable. 
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Re: MLC or just Passive Aggressive behaviour ?
#19: July 09, 2012, 12:25:37 AM
Quote
well anyways, his passive aggressive behavior turned into blowups and leaving the house when angry.  I'm guessing his shrink told him to be more assertive.

Yes my h did this too....and also said...you don't like it because i am answering back  :o :o FFS I said I am not your mother or your teacher...I have tried for years to get your input why would you think it would anger me.. ::)

My H is now at the stage where he has rants about almost everything, the government, the youth of today, the Banks  ::) it is me now who just switches off and ignores.

I also think they get confused over being assertive and being aggressive...my H did anyway. ::)
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Re: MLC or just Passive Aggressive behaviour ?
#20: July 09, 2012, 12:39:49 AM
It sounds like your H is still growing up, Hyper.

Chickpea, like a lot of MLC behaviour, it's probably got nothing to do with getting rid of you, and a lot to do with finding his inner space. The LBS is collateral damage.
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Re: MLC or just Passive Aggressive behaviour ?
#21: July 09, 2012, 01:35:55 AM
Hi my h is a classic passive aggressive personality and I agree he probably did have these traits before but they have been worse since his MLc. A good book I have is 'overcoming passive aggression' a real eye opener. Gives you some tips of handling yourself against the anger and also what not to do with the passive aggressive, such as enabling. I would recommend anyone to read this, my h just really needs and probably needed to know and be confident in himself that he could say no and also that he could be independent, he is showing some signs of improvement but us still very dependent on others to make him happy.
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Re: MLC or just Passive Aggressive behaviour ?
#22: July 09, 2012, 05:14:31 AM
Quote
It sounds like your H is still growing up, Hyper.
Agreed Mermaid, but aren't most of them...they are like spoilt children, I want this and i don't really care about you or the kids....although they don't see it like that , they see themselves as self sacrificing  :o my H said many times (earlier on) how he had been so unselfish and this was now his time  ::)

Quote
Hi my h is a classic passive aggressive personality and I agree he probably did have these traits before but they have been worse since his MLC.
Mine too  :-[  I didn't realise.

Thanks for the book tip GH I will download it onto my new kindle...Great as they cant see what you are reading  ;)

Quote
my h just really needs and probably needed to know and be confident in himself that he could say no and also that he could be independent

Yes my H told me this before he moved out...the only problem was because he never really went far i don't think he did all the work he should have and now thinks everything is fixed  :o and when i tell him I don't feel it is...he wants to run again  ::)
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Re: MLC or just Passive Aggressive behaviour ?
#23: July 09, 2012, 06:46:07 AM
Quote
It sounds like your H is still growing up, Hyper.
Agreed Mermaid, but aren't most of them...they are like spoilt children, I want this and i don't really care about you or the kids....although they don't see it like that , they see themselves as self sacrificing  :o my H said many times (earlier on) how he had been so unselfish and this was now his time  ::)

Many of them are. I suppose your H is like mine in that his CB behaviour and even his passive aggressivity show that they have a hidden need for love and acceptance, but that they are inept in how the deal with intimate relationships.

We tolerated this for years (I labelled it as stress/ introversion), and there must be a reason for this. I often get to points now that I never expected to get to, when I question whether this R is what I want for the rest of my life. I realise that H filled a void in my life, and I loved the security he gave me. Now he has shown himself to be so unstable, showing such disregard for me, and come back home again, I am much less tolerant of his emotional ineptness, and much more independent of him. I suppose something similar is happening to you.

My H has made changes, but withdraws into his shell, more so when I feel angry with him. He needs me, but fears being absorbed by me, or controlled by anyone, which relate to his R with his domineering mother/absent father. I get very down trying to have a R with someone who won't discuss what's wrong, refuses to compromise, and who is focussed on himself. This weekend (after consulting the iChing), I made just small in-roads. I practiced direct, assertive techniques, but with a light touch. It seemed to make a difference. H eventually washed the dishes he'd been promising to do since lunchtime, and apologised for overreacting to me at one point.

Meanwhile, I'm still working on myslef, detaching (again), GALing (again), and meditating. I've been reading a book called Gamma Healing, and using its TAPPING exercises to help me. (I'll do a book review when I've finished it).
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Re: MLC or just Passive Aggressive behaviour ?
#24: July 09, 2012, 08:44:35 AM
Quote
I get very down trying to have a R with someone who won't discuss what's wrong, refuses to compromise, and who is focused on himself.
] Amen Sista  ::)

We had an almighty fight and i told him to leave i had had enough , go and let me find some peace...he sulked for days, but once i let it go he is back to his happy self. During the fight he told me he was unhappy. I said no you are confused....its me who's UNHAPPY you are just unhappy i want to talk about it. I am letting it go for a bit, doing my own thing, but like you I think I may be nearing the end of my R with my H...sad...but maybe the only way for me to be truly happy again.

 :(
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Re: MLC or just Passive Aggressive behaviour ?
#25: July 09, 2012, 11:13:52 AM
Hi again I know what you mean about wanting your life back, this shy you do hzvrvto concentrate on yourself a bit and be a little bit selfish. Once in a while is ok. Although the book 'overcoming passive ahgression' is good, I read 'the angry child' first and it does explain a great deal as well about anger and why people get angry. Again it has helped me understand and to be honest has helped my relationship with my growing boys, one who us a year off 13 but already showing teenage angst. Fantastic insight to the ways of a child that can be used on the 'childlike' minds of our MLc ers a bit.
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Re: MLC or just Passive Aggressive behaviour ?
#26: July 09, 2012, 12:02:28 PM
We must also realise why we get angry.

I actually get furious with H when he says that, because he thinks that my anger comes from within me and has nothing to do with what he says or does. Of course I will get furious when he spends all weekend with his headphones in, listening to music and making jokes with FB friends. Of course I will get mad when he tells me what to do all the time, but stonewalls if I make a comment. I get mad at his lack of ability to acknowledge his own mistakes, to say sorry, pay a compliment...

On the other hand, he's got a point. Just one. Our reactions always belong to us, even if they are justified. Our anger isn't their anger. We feel angry because we want them to behave in a different way. And somewhere, deep down inside, is our own angry child. We are subconsciously replaying something from our own past, too.

We need to detach, GAL, and set boundaries (different to those we set when they were in replay). We need work on our own inner calm (I'm not so good at that), and be prepared to let them be who they are, or let them go, without being angry. If we are angry, it's because we still want something from them, something they are (for now) unable to give. So if we tell them to go in a moment of anger, it's because we are not done yet. See what I mean? I've also got to that point.

It's a hard path, this reconciliation business.
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Re: MLC or just Passive Aggressive behaviour ?
#27: July 09, 2012, 01:15:15 PM
Quote
If we are angry, it's because we still want something from them, something they are (for now) unable to give. So if we tell them to go in a moment of anger, it's because we are not done yet. See what I mean? I've also got to that point.

Yes this is very true...and since i have decided i want nothing from him at the moment (and totally detached) I have a far greater peace inside me (I don't feel down at all) and he is resonating towards me....I am just being polite, he, as i said before is calling me, sitting with me, coming to bed earlier   chit chatting. As you say because i am not angry with him he can tell.


I have to remember there is no OW, he is home with me each night...he is just not moving at the pace i want...I guess i need to have a bit more patience before i make any rash decisions.  ???
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H 47
BD 1 March 09
BD 2 disc OW Aug 09
H moved out to his own place April 10
Moved home and gave up cave Nov11
H has been home almost 4 years and our relationship is now better than before MLC :)

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Re: MLC or just Passive Aggressive behaviour ?
#28: July 09, 2012, 03:37:43 PM
I have to remember there is no OW, he is home with me each night...he is just not moving at the pace i want...I guess i need to have a bit more patience before i make any rash decisions.  ???

That was good when they first came back, but it's good to remember (although it's not enough). We waited, accepted them back, and there was a reason for that. Now we are wondering why.

There are reasons, though, aren't there? Can you rerember them?

The only way this can work is to detach, not be angry, but set firm boundaries: no passive aggressive abuse. Once again, I take my cues from you, Hyper. You detach well.
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