[Thundarr]

I didn't hold back on expressing myself as she never indicated she found it UNattractive, but I remember D19 was the one who had a problem with me being emotional.  When she graduated from her middle school she told me if she looked back and saw me crying she would come back there and punch me.  She and W both have always seemed to have difficulty expressing sad emotions, but on the other hand tend to dwell more on them.  I always took W to just be more of an upbeat, happy person but realize now that she may have been avoidant.  Well, she WAS avoidant I should say.

[calamity]

That wasn't your wife talking, that was the alien.  Honestly why do you believe this?  They lie all the time.

Another way of thinking of it is:  You are her mirror.  She doesn't like what she sees in that mirror [herself] & she is looking for a new shiny mirror.  We know she will see the same person in any mirror...

If she sees ugly, she sees herself.

[In this for ME]

Well then maybe SHE'S the one who doesn't feel safe- that's NOT your fault.

 Being stoic and having a "stiff upper lip" are people who are avoiding feeling thier emotions whena situation calls for them.

And it could be how PROUD you were of your D along with all the other mixed emotions of watching her grow up that would cause tears. DOESN'T mean you are WEAK!!

But your W and D19 have gotten the idea that emotions = weakness. Probably any emotion except anger...

[Rollercoasterider]

I did not see the parts related to the female LBSers, but rather was focused on the parts about what our W's want in a mate according to the author. His assertion that women ultimately prefer Alpha men even though they nag us to become more Beta was interesting. Also interesting was the fact that giving in to them ultimately pushed them away.

…many gravitate to this line of thinking due to taking responsibility or blame for the fact that our W's left us either for an OM or to be alone. I admit I haven't read a whole lot of this guy's writings, but the parts I have that are related to what women want in a man were very painful for me. I am less "alpha" than I was when my W and I first met, but being a father and husband who has shared in the child rearing and domestic duties ever since we started living together will do that for you.

From what I read, the guy comes off crass and perhaps misogynist. It’s an in-your-face style that appeals more to some men than women. Assumption: Those some mean who may find it appealing are already the crass jerks who are domineering, or those with short guy syndrome who try to compensate, or guys like you Thundaar—men who are desperately searching for a reason why…why whatever since different issues may bring a man to this desperation.
Years ago there was a book called The Rules for women about how to get a man. It was awful, it was manipulative, it was game-playing and I imagine that if a man were to learn his girlfriend caught him using those methods, he would be disgusted. But the woman might just justify it since he is now caught. Same with this stuff. Sure it will work with some women. And sure, there are kernels of truth.

Sweetheart has always been more beta than alpha—Two days ago I was on a phone interview and I told the interviewer that I’m the alpha partner. It’s true. But I like it when he is also more alpha and decisive too. Last night we were talking about sex and I told him that the best sex we ever had was in the weeks after Bomb Drop. It was amazing. The rest of life around it was awful and so I don’t want the context, but there is no getting around that the sex was great. He initiated frequently, he tried new things, he was enthusiastic, exciting and I could initiate—whereas before the rejection rate was almost at 100% if I initiated. He was in command of what he wanted. Great. The difference is that the site you are looking at seems to confuse being commanding with being demanding. If Sweetheart even tried being demanding…well let’s just not go there and I won’t do it either. Tyrants demand, it’s about hierarchy.

Sweetheart’s charming (not-angry) Monster was alpha—and perhaps the only times I’ve seen Sweetheart in alpha. That guy would have probably lapped up the crap at this site. But I will not deny that some of Monster’s attributes would have been great had they been channeled appropriately. He was charming, but that went with taunt-n-flaunting. Charming is nice, taunt-n-flaunting is not. But normal Sweetheart doesn’t have the swagger or confidence to taunt-n-flaunt. The confidence that it took to do that is positive, what he did with it was not.

I also find semblances of truth in the pieces Anne J quoted.

So Alpha Traits create attraction and that “in love” feeling, and Beta Traits create the pair bond and makes her feel relaxed enough to have sex.

A Nice Guy is a man that typically has very low Alpha Traits, and a good amount of Beta Traits. This means he can establish what amounts to good friendships with women, but cannot convert those friendships into the sexual relationship with them that he wants. He’s always confined to the Friendzone with them, and watches helplessly in pain and confusion as “less nice” men make easier progress to having sex with his love interest.

I’m not saying women don’t fall in-love with the nice guy with beta traits—I certainly did. I’m saying that there are appealing qualities that function as attractive forces in alpha qualities. The attractive alpha qualities are confidence and assertiveness—or decisiveness. He knows what he wants, how to get it and believes in his ability to get it. The beta traits may also be there, but many of those come through with oxytocin—the bonding or cuddle hormone. And think about it ladies, what do you think about a guy who tries to cuddle with you on a first date or the first time you meet them—creepy or what a cute bunny rabbit?
I don’t necessarily agree that nice guys have low alpha in order to have high beta—perhaps the ideal is a balance of both which leads to equal and respectful partnerships. A true (and well-balanced) beta man is also confident, so much so that changing a diaper, feeding the baby or doing the dishes and vacuuming do not bother him. A true beta man can convert the beta traits into sexual relationships with women—or he is already in a sexual relationship.
The idea in the quote is that alpha is the bait that hooks them and beta is the sustenance that keeps them. That’s not a false notion, though it may not prove true as a generalization within the context of our culture. But oxytocin facilitates some of those beta qualities. Be objective and look at other species. Are there species where the dynamics change once a pair-bond is established—um, well ours change too at that point. Or think about how the dynamics change once children arrive. The dynamics change at various transition points in a relationship. The courting or getting-to-know-you phase is vastly different than the next dating phase where you drop your guard and are more comfortable revealing your Self to that other person. On our first date I had acne in a line on my jaw where my hair brushed my face. Well, I reached my hand up and caught my skin, ripped a zit and started bleeding down my chin. Can you say embarrassing! He later called a mutual friend to and told her he was worried about my health because I had a skin condition. Now, the only reason we even close the bathroom door is because we are being polite and don’t want to stink the other out of the house. We are more vulnerable with each other. But that level of vulnerability in the courting phase would have ended the relationship at the courting phase.

But Thundaar, I think you are just desperately seeking solutions that are turn-offs to women. There are genuine alpha males who are still nice guys and there are those wannabe alphas who are clearly compensating and don’t realize that women want even their alpha men to be simultaneously nice. Being a leader is not the same as being a domineering jacka$$. Women can often tell the difference. There is nothing wrong with a strong man, but a weak man who is trying to appear strong is inauthentic. Find your strengths and build them and the rest will come naturally, but keep searching for some holy grail and you are going to be stuffing yourself with whatever color pill you think is magic this week.

If you look at the comments to the one-star review of one of this guys books you can see an example of the type of men he attracts. I don’t know if the reviewer read the book or not, but simply from the tiny tidbit I skimmed, I can see women holding this opinion.
http://www.amazon.com/The-Married-Life-Primer-2011/product-reviews/1460981731/ref=cm_cr_pr_hist_1?ie=UTF8&showViewpoints=0&filterBy=addOneStar
Go read those comments and think about if that is the sort of man you want to be. Those guys bashed her and dismissed her which is what a quick skim of the blogs articles seems to promote. They accused her of not reading and only reviewing because her (HER—a female will likely have a different opinions on this stuff than a male) opinions differed from theirs. Oh and she needed to get some. The author may not even be as radical about it as his followers—he’s monogamous and happily married and been so for 16+ years. But his methods—or how they come across in his writings leave much to be desired. His application may be different.

Okay, I wrote before you posted this and then went back…

It would appear that this guy's assertion that these traits are not what women desire in a man could be very destructive to relationships if his advice is followed and men start acting like self-centered a-holes rather than domestic partners. I think Ready said it a bit more directly, but treating a female partner as if she is subordinate or inferior to me is not an option. I've always thought guys who did that were actually compensating for a low self esteem or perhaps a lack of endowment (and I don't mean financial).

So you don’t agree with this guy—or you are not wondering if this guy’s methods are valid? Why didn’t you say that in your first post then?
Here is how you may seem to some.
You have an opinion but are not sure enough about it to speak up. You’d rather hear what others have to say first and then follow in line with what they say. So had people here said this guy’s stuff was great, you would have then posted something in agreement with that opinion.
Sounds like a beta trait to me! Figure out what you believe and state it with confidence instead of watching what the other guys say and following the pack. Woman want the real you, not some macho guy you think they want that isn’t you.

I didn't hold back on expressing myself as she never indicated she found it UNattractive, but I remember D19 was the one who had a problem with me being emotional. When she graduated from her middle school she told me if she looked back and saw me crying she would come back there and punch me. She and W both have always seemed to have difficulty expressing sad emotions, but on the other hand tend to dwell more on them. I always took W to just be more of an upbeat, happy person but realize now that she may have been avoidant. Well, she WAS avoidant I should say.

You are doing the same thing the ladies do. You are taking your wife’s issues and making them your own—though in reverse. Your wife is like many men and has problems expressing certain emotions—those she feels are weak from what you are saying. You are then taking her concept of those emotions and applying it to you as though her belief about them is true. You are letting her fears about things that are healthy contaminate your health about those same things.
Tears and being sad is now a trigger for you. She has hypnotized you to feel bad and weak about healthy emotions. What are you going to do to correct that induction?

I think it is great that you want to grow and look at how and where you were responsible for issues in your marriage. But the challenge of that is that sometimes when a person does that, they take on the blame that is their partner’s and belief everything was their fault.

[Ready2Transform]

My w has physical problems, may not ever be physical with me or anyone else again.

Ready, just to shed a little light here to give her (and you) some hope:  it is very much not uncommon for both men and women to experience issues like this during MLC due to the change in hormones, which can both directly and indirectly cause a slew of physical problems.  Both my H and I individually experienced this.  Mine had to do with lowered estrogen caused by lowered serotonin (I know this now, of course), and now that my hormones and mindset are in a better place, are not the issues they once were (can't give the 100% only because I am not physical with my H at the current time).  Have hope!

[Thundarr]

I don’t necessarily agree that nice guys have low alpha in order to have high beta—perhaps the ideal is a balance of both which leads to equal and respectful partnerships. A true (and well-balanced) beta man is also confident, so much so that changing a diaper, feeding the baby or doing the dishes and vacuuming do not bother him. A true beta man can convert the beta traits into sexual relationships with women—or he is already in a sexual relationship.

I don't either.  I've heard references to a man being "zeta," which is a combination of alpha and beta.  My W would actually describe me as alpha and I've had co-workers describe me as such as well, but in the way that I come across as confident and secure to the point of almost seeming arrogant or idealistic at times.  My W was attracted to the fact that I am outspoken and opinionated and will often throw my hat into a ring knowing that a fight will likely ensue.  She used to say that I stood up for my beliefs and she loved that about me, but expressed disdain for herself in that she was not outspoken and did not have the courage to present her true self to those she was not comfortable with.  Ironically, it seems that she now brags to me when she does or handles things the way she would perceive that I would such as standing up to someone who is being a jerk to her.  In some ways it's almost as if she is using me as a template to emulate.


But Thundaar, I think you are just desperately seeking solutions that are turn-offs to women. There are genuine alpha males who are still nice guys and there are those wannabe alphas who are clearly compensating and don’t realize that women want even their alpha men to be simultaneously nice. Being a leader is not the same as being a domineering jacka$$. Women can often tell the difference. There is nothing wrong with a strong man, but a weak man who is trying to appear strong is inauthentic. Find your strengths and build them and the rest will come naturally, but keep searching for some holy grail and you are going to be stuffing yourself with whatever color pill you think is magic this week.

There are no magic pills, either red or blue, in this mess.  What there are is different perspectives and unfortunately many of these stem from unhealthy coping strategies that some LBSers use to attempt to make sense of things.  Guilty as charged.

If you look at the comments to the one-star review of one of this guys books you can see an example of the type of men he attracts. I don’t know if the reviewer read the book or not, but simply from the tiny tidbit I skimmed, I can see women holding this opinion.
http://www.amazon.com/The-Married-Life-Primer-2011/product-reviews/1460981731/ref=cm_cr_pr_hist_1?ie=UTF8&showViewpoints=0&filterBy=addOneStar
Go read those comments and think about if that is the sort of man you want to be. Those guys bashed her and dismissed her which is what a quick skim of the blogs articles seems to promote. They accused her of not reading and only reviewing because her (HER—a female will likely have a different opinions on this stuff than a male) opinions differed from theirs. Oh and she needed to get some. The author may not even be as radical about it as his followers—he’s monogamous and happily married and been so for 16+ years. But his methods—or how they come across in his writings leave much to be desired. His application may be different.

I could not be one of those men.  Perhaps when I was a teenager and definitely before I had daughters, but knowing what I know now I could never dismiss a woman's point of view in such a sexist way.  Many on there are definitely misogynistic.

Okay, I wrote before you posted this and then went back…[/color][/size][/font]

It would appear that this guy's assertion that these traits are not what women desire in a man could be very destructive to relationships if his advice is followed and men start acting like self-centered a-holes rather than domestic partners. I think Ready said it a bit more directly, but treating a female partner as if she is subordinate or inferior to me is not an option. I've always thought guys who did that were actually compensating for a low self esteem or perhaps a lack of endowment (and I don't mean financial).

So you don’t agree with this guy—or you are not wondering if this guy’s methods are valid? Why didn’t you say that in your first post then?
Here is how you may seem to some.
You have an opinion but are not sure enough about it to speak up. You’d rather hear what others have to say first and then follow in line with what they say. So had people here said this guy’s stuff was great, you would have then posted something in agreement with that opinion.
Sounds like a beta trait to me! Figure out what you believe and state it with confidence instead of watching what the other guys say and following the pack. Woman want the real you, not some macho guy you think they want that isn’t you.

Point taken, but I've had my own opinion on this guy for months.  My intent was to open a discussion topic to get the female perspective on this guy's assertions, not to get their responses on MY position.  I felt that injecting my opinion, either positive or negative, would taint the discussion.  It was only after several ladies had chimed in did I confirm my own position.  Had most of the ladies stated that this guy was in fact on target I would have had to admit that I disagreed with him apparently erroneously, but I would have had no problem doing so.

I didn't hold back on expressing myself as she never indicated she found it UNattractive, but I remember D19 was the one who had a problem with me being emotional. When she graduated from her middle school she told me if she looked back and saw me crying she would come back there and punch me. She and W both have always seemed to have difficulty expressing sad emotions, but on the other hand tend to dwell more on them. I always took W to just be more of an upbeat, happy person but realize now that she may have been avoidant. Well, she WAS avoidant I should say.

You are doing the same thing the ladies do. You are taking your wife’s issues and making them your own—though in reverse. Your wife is like many men and has problems expressing certain emotions—those she feels are weak from what you are saying. You are then taking her concept of those emotions and applying it to you as though her belief about them is true. You are letting her fears about things that are healthy contaminate your health about those same things.
Tears and being sad is now a trigger for you. She has hypnotized you to feel bad and weak about healthy emotions. What are you going to do to correct that induction?

Tears and being sad are not triggers for me, and I don't believe they are weak traits in men.  I have met many men on here and on LT that are much stronger than I who have described breaking down and crying a flood of tears.  This is a safe place where I feel I can openly say that without being judged by anyone, male or female, but I don't think any guy sits around with his buddies and talks about crying over his W.  I don't feel weak although I do feel that I have been hurt beyond what I thought was possible.  You and the other fine ladies here help to keep my ego stroked that being a good dad and loving my W are manly traits and not symptoms of weakness.  That's why my original post on this thread mentioned that it is the opinions of these types of women that I value, and not those of shallow women who are interested in money or guys who have to be macho all the time.  I don't have time for that at my age. 

I think it is great that you want to grow and look at how and where you were responsible for issues in your marriage. But the challenge of that is that sometimes when a person does that, they take on the blame that is their partner’s and belief everything was their fault.

Exactly why I needed reinforcement about it not being my fault or about me, and that her actions were not because of some inherent weakness or unattractive traits on my part.  Now, as for who I want to become out of all this?  I haven't answered that question yet but I'm getting there.  Thanks, RCR!!!

[readytofixmyselffirst]

Quote
My w has physical problems, may not ever be physical with me or anyone else again. Have hope! 

I do have hope! I just realize that there is more to life than trying to covet a lifestyle that promotes purchasing lots of things and having a young woman at your side. It is an "ideal" life that promises "happiness" through possession and acquisition.

When I was in college, a group of us went to a "stripper" bar. I was naive, young and dumb. I thought it was going to be a great place and everyone was going to be happy and partying. First of all, it smelt to high heavens. I almost puked from the smell alone. It was dark, dreary and sad. The women had no clothes on but looked bored. The guys looked like leeches. It was like everyone was embarrassed to be there. I sat down and a girl came up and asked if I wanted a lap dance. I turned her down and left. I was there five minutes at the tops and I have never stepped foot in "gentleman's club" again.

The point is that the image were are given through the media and advertisement is that we can buy happiness, that by having certain things in life we are considered "happy".

This guy is selling the same "image". My concern Thundarr is that we both have daughters. I have one that will graduate next year and another that will be in highschool in a couple of years. I have raised them to be thoughtful and identify themselves through there own identity and not by "I am Joe's girlfriend."
Do you want your own daughters to be in a relationship with a jerk like that. I love you for your breasts. Do you think a woman really wants to spend a lifetime with a guy because of her bottom?

The bottom line is that when you read these sites and refer to these site, it still shows that you feel that your wife left you because of you. That is far from the truth. Your wife left because of her issues.  Her emptiness and pain. Her feelings and emotional void. Crying at night and waking up in the morning prepared to fight. She ran and seeks the same false image that by doing something different, she will find "happiness" and fill the void. Unfortunately she will find the same "bleak" club that I was in over 27 years ago. Hopefully she will then face the demons that haunt her and from that she will find herself. It is her journey and her issues and there is nothing you can do to fix her.

Once again, I am going to implore that you analyze and work on you. I am going to tell you that despite my wife's MLC, I have GROWN tremendously over the past few years. I am humble, yet I have grown to appreciate myself and happy with what I have. I find joy in things that are simple.  I have grown to really like and enjoy my life. Do I have issues, yes. Do I have problems, yes!. The thing is that I accept where I am and that the journey to a better me is improving what I already possess rather than discarding that and trying to get something new.

Rant is over and I have written a lot to say a little. ((((hugs))))

In it for the long haul: I agree with all that you said, about humor, listening, and being there. However, can I add something about wearing a red dress?

[Rollercoasterider]

Point taken, but I've had my own opinion on this guy for months.  My intent was to open a discussion topic to get the female perspective on this guy's assertions, not to get their responses on MY position.  I felt that injecting my opinion, either positive or negative, would taint the discussion.[/font][/size]

An understandable intention, but the problem with that is we humans fill in the blanks with our own interpretations when you are silent. So had you given your opinion up front, that may have biased answers to those who are agreeable types. By not giving your opinion, people assumed you are a follower of the site--or considering becoming one. Since many are not in agreement with the site, they assume they are in opposition with you as well and respond to you--rather than that site--based on their assumptions.
So even when we try to remain objective, others assume!

[readytofixmyselffirst]

Forget everything I posted. I was just playing with my 18 month old nephew. He pointed his finger at me and said, "Bad boy".

Now my nephew attracts the women. He can run around with his shirt off and not one person complains.

If he thinks I'm a bad boy then I must be bad. Really bad

Maybe tonight, I will enjoy the street life. Be bad, be a man.

Of course, I have to be home by ten pm. hahahahaha

[Mamma Bear]

 And nephew's endowment is small (not financial)