[calamity]

I'll second that.

[Mamma Bear]

 Chump Lady, My Hs actions before BD were those of withdrawal and depression. His sudden departure was very against the man I knew all those years (16).
  Since he was in tears a lot after he left and told me with few words that he would have died if he stayed I tried to find an explanation.
   When I discovered this website I was amazed to see that everything RCR described was what I was seeing.
   My H doesn't come and go as he pleases. He lives with OW and gets the Ds for visits and play/swim/ hang out with Dad. He is NOT there mentally. No sense in me throwing up my hands and calling a lawyer when several people have told me stories (including my sister) about Hs that ran away depressed, acted a bit out of sorts(where buses don't run) and after 2 years woke up terrified about what they had done and why. 
  Since I usually take care of the Ds and work and go to church and do yardwork etc etc like a normal person, I figured I'd hold the fort for H because it seems he's in a crisis. That's some serious stuff.  It will play out like a thousand times before. The names and faces change but the stories are eerily similar. 
  I for one am not the type to be shy or let anyone walk all over me. No sir-ree. I am from Brooklyn and I am quieting down on my own journey. LOL!  Part of the process. My Ds, I hope, will come to understand that the reason I stood for my H was bc he was deep down inside all along a very fair and honest person who gave us everything we ever needed.  This implosion we saw coming in his irritability and sadness is a blip on the screen of an otherwise exemplary giving and kind hearted individual.
   God as my witness, when I was hitting rock bottom from drinking 12 years ago, I was out of my mind. So selfish and uncaring. Now I have a new perspective to what it feels like to have everything getting worse and worse and you don't know why.
   Sometimes life just has to play itself out. Sometimes patience opens doors that we never knew were there.
   Anyway, I do not hold my H responsible for not being able to have an R with anyone right now. He's so much involved in self loathing it's not possible for him to enjoy anything. We all pray this changes   ....  and it wil.
   

[Thundarr]

Chump Lady, I don't think anyone here is saying that you are wrong but only that you are comparing apples to oranges.  When it comes to serial cheaters I think you are spot on that they will likely continue that behavior ad nauseum and there is likely a personality disorder (actually the accepted term now is more "personality style") that would prohibit such people from truly committing to a relationship.  But, the vast majority of people here have spouses or ex-spouses who did not take the immoral road until something inside them just.... snapped.  If you read through RCR's articles I think you will find certain factors that are not consistent with the examples you have given.  The most telling of thee would be Bomb Drop itself as in many of our cases everyone around our spouse can see that they have become someone they don't recognize. 

People get divorced all the time without deserting their kids, turning against their faith and adopting new clothing and musical tastes (usually those of a much younger generation).  I honestly don't think you could look at a 65 year-old man who suddenly leaves his W of 35 + years to take up surfing and skateboarding as a serial cheater in his right mind.  Or, how about a man who asked his W if he could move his OW into the house to "help out with the kids."  Or, a man who offers to let the OW sleep at the foot of the bed with him and his W.  Or how about a woman who leaves her well-to-do H for a house painter that was hired to paint their kitchen and moves off to a farmhouse to fulfill her lifelong dream of running her own antique shop?  Or a W who leaves her upper-class H for a 30 year-old World of Warcraft addict who works at Wal-Mart and lives in his aunt's basement?  Or a W who leaves her H of over 18 years along with the house and kids because he watches wrestling and thinks Britney Spears is hot?  It's all here in living color. 

Btw, where is that thread "Things my MLCer has said"?  I think some of the newbies would get a real kick out of it!!

[Thundarr]

Mamma - all I can say is......damn!!!

Of all the hilarious and gut-splitting posts over the past year from you, that is BY FAR one of the most poignant and heartfelt ones I have ever read here or anywhere else.  I think you quieted everyone who ever assumed you were in denial of any kind.  That was just beautiful!!!

[dwlh]

 

Btw, where is that thread "Things my MLCer has said"?  I think some of the newbies would get a real kick out of it!!

How do I go about finding this thread T. I think it would be an interesting read.

[Ready2Transform]

I forgot about the OW at the foot of the bed!      That never loses it's luster. 

[TrustingMyHP]

Hand up in the air here!

It was my H who told me that he wouldn't have to leave if I would just allow OW to "sleep at the foot of our bed."  That that was all he/she wanted.

He was serious.  I'll never forget it.  It was just a few weeks after BD.  We were standing in my office at home, H had come over to install a new printer for me, and he was so sincere.

It was then I began to realize something seriously bizarre was going on. . .

Just wanted to add that!

TMHP

[Thundarr]

What's bizarre about after 38 years of marriage someone wanting to have a skank sleep at the foot of their marital bed?  Oh, wait.......

We really need some humor to kick off this weekend, and just as Trusting has so valiantly chimed in I think we can all find it in ourselves to forget for a short while the pain behind some of these incredibly strange yet funny stories.  Humor may well be what keeps us sane.

[Ready2Transform]

Oh, Trusting, how did you keep a straight face?!  For having no poker face, I've been pretty proud of how I've contained myself after a few of H's little "revelations" during this process, but that one I would be no match for.  It should definitely be line #1 on the "You might be an MLC'er if..." comedy tour. 

[Chump Lady]

Hmm. Some clarification -- I do not believe all cheaters are serial cheaters. I do believe, however, that when someone is cheating on you -- whether a serial cheater or a MLC -- the only way to get them to stop eating cake is to change YOURSELF. You cannot change them. You only get to control you. So that means enforcing your boundaries with consequences and setting limits. That is very painful to do. It's frightening to let go of the outcome when you assert yourself. But to face the fear of losing that thing, is the best way to gain that thing.

I do not believe that nice-ing people out of affairs and waiting for them patiently to return to their senses works. Instead it signals to them that you are okay with cake.

Also, I'm not against reconciliation. I find true examples of it to be rare, but I'm not against it -- if BOTH parties are committed to it. That alone is a very difficult road. IMO it is an impossible road if the cheater is still engaged in the affair. There's nothing to work with.

I recently interviewed Dr. George Simon -- and he talks about a trap betrayed spouses fall into (OMG, I totally fell into it) -- of thinking what cheating people need is "insight." No, he argues, they are very aware of what they are doing. But you haven't convinced them to play by the rules. He has a rhyme that goes "It's not that they don't SEE -- it is that they DISAGREE."

It's not that a cheating MLC spouse doesn't know you want them back or are distraught without them. They get it. They DISAGREE with you, however, that they should stop cheating. If you work to convince them that they need to return to their senses, he says you're "wasting your time."

He refers to cheating and other such acts as being "character disordered." Part of the interview here:

CL: For people who are on the receiving end of bad behavior by (a cheater), is it better to constantly to be the marriage police and gently confront them when they step out of line? If you’re neurotic, you’re buying books for them on Amazon and trying to help them figure themselves out.

GS: I think that would be a total waste of time because it assumes something that is patently untrue. It assumes that what they need is insight. I make that point in my book. We live under this delusion! Therapists do this all the time! They think they are going to be the person who says just the right thing in just the right way, so that this time a light bulb is going to go off in this person’s mind and all of a sudden — they will understand and “see” the error of their ways!  The problem is, they already understand!

It’s not that the cheater or disturbed character doesn’t know what they’re doing and what damage comes from it. If the wounded party is crying their heart out and is miserable, it’s not like you don’t know what you’ve done and what an effect it has had! It’s right there.

Character disordered people are not stupid people. They’re contrary people. They know what the rules are, they know what the expectations are. But they haven’t made the decision in their heart to play by the rules that you want them to play by. That’s a matter of the heart. So, like I’ve said over and over in countless workshops:
They already see but they just disagree. A little rhyming phrase I use a lot. I can’t say it enough! Therapists make the same mistake!

And they’ll change only when the cost of their behavior rises too high, the benefits of doing something different becomes more clear, that’s when they’ll change. It’s not that people can’t or won’t change. It’s under what circumstances they’ll be motivated to change. What you need to do if you’re in a relationship with someone like this is set those limits and enforce those boundaries! You must set the terms of engagement!  You can’t trust them to do it.  When there is a clear cost to continuing their crazy behavior, there will perhaps be some incentive to change.

You can define the terms of engagement. The problem for neurotic folks is they don’t like operating in that mode. It’s not natural for them. It feels to them like they’re being a hard [ass], like they’re being too selfish. They have all these ideas about how inappropriate it is to start calling some shots! But asserting your needs and enforcing the limits is just what you have to do.

The rest of the interview is here: http://chumplady.com/2012/06/an-interview-with-dr-george-simon-on-character-disturbance/